15:5--Fair and Balanced?

From left, religious figures make a push
By Glen Johnson, Globe Staff | November 27, 2004
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/11/27/from_left_religious_figures_make_a_push/

This is a great article. We need our liberal leaning religious leaders to step forward. We cannot let the Repubs hold the pulpit hostage. There are some great liberal church leaders who have more to add about our country's discussion on faith than abortion and gays. What about the death penalty? Services to the poor and needy?

I have to promote a movie - "I Heart Huckabees" - good acting (Lily Tomlin, Dustin Hoffman, Mark Wahlberg etc) and casting - comic, philosophical, & just politically relevant enough. The scene at the dinner table reminds me of this whole last year (polarized country). & it has a female French philosopher & Markie Mark plays a fireman who "gets it"! See it!

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A large explosion boomed across central Baghdad Sunday and a pall of smoke rose from the direction of the Green Zone, which houses the U.S. and Iraqi leadership.

It was not immediately clear what caused the explosion, which occurred about 8:45 a.m. The U.S. military had no immediate comment.

(http://www.guardian.co.uk)

Patience

"A little patience and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolved, and the people recovering their true sight, restoring their government to its true principles. It is true, that in the meantime, we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war, and long oppressions of enormous public debt. ... If the game runs sometimes against us at home, we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost. For this is a game where principles are the stake."

--Thomas Jefferson

Be the Truth.

FAIR AND BALANCED I DO NOT THINK SO;

http://okimc.org/newswire.php?story_id=344

I would love to know where the Dem Party is, and everyone else, who are supposed to count your votes. Your media and cable absolutely suck I could kick everything in sight. No wonder nobody votes in your country they know their vote does not count literally.

How can this happen in the supposed leading country of the free world. Talk about corruption I think this administration is the most corrupt administration of the free world.

Kangaroo Brisbane Australia

Moral values by Geoff Parish

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18085

Democrats have moral values too!

And from the state that employs me, here is the latest from our charming Governor:

Two Reporters Cut Off From Md. Agencies

GRETCHEN PARKER

Associated Press

ANNAPOLIS, Md. - Press officers in Maryland's state agencies have been ordered to stop giving information to a reporter and a columnist for The (Baltimore) Sun, at the same time the newspaper publishes articles examining Gov. Robert Ehrlich's policies on the sale of state-owned lands.

An e-mail sent Thursday to public information officers in 19 agencies reads: "No one in the executive department or agencies is to speak with David Nitkin or Michael Olesker until further notice. Do not return calls or comply with any requests."

Nitkin, chief of The Sun's State House bureau, said he and editors at the newspaper are trying to negotiate with Ehrlich's office and reopen lines of communication.

"It's disturbing that the Ehrlich administration feels they can single out which journalists they choose to talk to," Nitkin said. "It has a chilling effect on all professionals who strive to be the eyes and ears of the public and ask tough questions of public officials."

Press secretary Greg Massoni said in the memo that Nitkin and Olesker "are failing to objectively report on any issue dealing with the Ehrlich-Steele administration."

The letter does not mention specific Sun coverage of the administration, but Massoni said the cut-off is partly because of a front-page map this week that mistakenly labeled all state-protected lands as those being considered for sale.

The newspaper corrected the mistake in Friday's editions and ran a map labeling each parcel of the 3,000 acres that have been identified as possible candidates for sale.

Massoni also pointed to Tuesday's column by Olesker, which focused on a legislative hearing that criticized the governor's starring role in commercials promoting state tourism. Massoni criticized Olesker for not attending the hearing.

---

Andree

Thanks for posting Geov Parrish!
You know all our hip west coast columnists!
Mark Morford will be coming up next, as soon as I get a new one!

Andree

Thanks for posting Geov Parrish!
You know all our hip west coast columnists!
Mark Morford will be coming up next, as soon as I get a new one!

Good article on blue Twin Cities & red suburbs - the pattern describes extends to many urban areas, such as Seattle & Portland. Bush targeted the suburbs, Kerry got almost 80% of the vote in Mpls/St Paul & over 80% here in Seattle.

Good article on blue Twin Cities & red suburbs - the pattern describes extends to many urban areas, such as Seattle & Portland. Bush targeted the suburbs, Kerry got almost 80% of the vote in Mpls/St Paul & over 80% here in Seattle.

There is no reason these should be posting twice. I hit the button once.

DiAnne,

I subscribed to Mark Morford's letter as well. the guy is not only a die heart democrat but he is hilarious, which is quite welcome.

I must remember he asked me to save him a seat at my table. If I choke, it won't be because of a pretzel, but of satirical fun.

A guy who likes good food, good wines and humour, is a man of great values.... for me!

Hey ya'll. Just found this site and I couldn't be more pleased. I am off to see John Edwards tomorrow. Ya'll want me to tell him anything for you? My county went blue in a very red state and so everyone is scrutinizing what we did right! My meet-up group has morphed into a Democratic Club and is packing some muscle. I won't go into the details just yet but we are building a strong, organized, kick a$$ machine. I am grateful for all the fine minds here for me to access as we rebuild our local organization. I missed ya'll so!

Denise, welcome!:) I am glad you made it...i assume you are and old kerry bloggers, and I'm glad the ole peeps are slowly finding us again.

I know i speak for the others here when I say we need every sane mind in this country to be able to take back our democracy from the ultra extreme, neocons that are currently in control of the White House.

Again...glad we 'met back up' here on DCP :)

Hey Denise..glad to see you found us! sounds like you are already working on how to strengthen our base which is what needs to happen all across this country.if you do speak to john and elizabeth edwards please send them our love and let them know we are all thinking of them..and still have their back too!

Denise,

Very much looking forward to your reports and input. I'm extremely psyched that so many of us have stayed solid and energized for the work ahead.

:-)

Meet the Press had a good roundtable discussion this morning on the role of religion in politics. Al Sharpton and a guy from Sojourner magazine spoke for the left. Christian values are about a lot more than sex values--questions about war, poverty and the death penalty deserve attention, too! Jerry Falwell was obnoxious as usual, interrupting and waving his hand in Sharpton's face. Ugh. I think this show repeats on MSNBC tonight.

Posted by: Denise O Charlotte | November 28, 2004 11:34 AM

Welcome Back Denise!

Contrary to Neocon belief, open public debate and resolution of the issues that we face every day in our struggles to maintain our Democracy is the cornerstone of our right and freedom to control a government of the people, for the people and by the people.

Please invite your Democracy Cell to sign in, join in and meet here as a place to organize and distribute the truth not only in your local community, but across the Nation and the World.

All are most welcome here.

Vive la Revolution!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15608-2004Nov26.html

When Ideology is a Value
By Michael Kinsley
Sunday, November 28, 2004; Page B07

It's been less than a month since the gods decreed that because of the election results American political life henceforth must be all about something called "values."

Those labels don't confer any logical advantage. But they confer two big advantages in the propaganda war. First, a value just seems inherently more compelling than a mere opinion. That's a big head start. Second, the holder of a value is held to be more sensitive to slights than the holder of an opinion. An opinion can't just slug away at a value. It must be solicitous and understanding. A value may tackle an opinion, meanwhile, with no such constraint.

No doubt there are strategists all over Washington busily reconfiguring their issues to look like values.

This was posted on the first thread of DCP a week ago, I hope that you do not mind the repost but I belief contained within this grouping of words is the essence of why we are all finding our way here...finding our way Home.

A Homecoming

Brothers and Sisters…I say this for we are all brethren…brothers…sisters…sons…daughters…Family. A great American Family. Born of malcontent and dissent, we are by our very nature free-thinkers…Rebels…Patriots. Though we mourn the loss our Natural Rights through a slow, blatant and merciless oppression we are here not to bear witness to a funeral of sorrow and despair but instead bring about by our own will a revival…a glorious rebirth…a renewal of our Homeland…our Nation…our Beloved America.

No adversary…no government can deny us this, our right, to dream a new dawn of Democracy and Freedom or to turn that dream into a reality for the benefit of all.

There have always been those who embrace the worst characteristics of humanity…they are the contrast between the light and the darkness and serve a great purpose...they show us the difference between futility and enlightenment. Just because evil exists is no reason to abandon the brighter light of Truth which serves those who live by compassion, and within this realization is the true wisdom in defeating our own personal challenges…for only then can we truly work together…and when we do there is no task too great for us to accomplish nor obstacle we cannot overcome.

We need not relive our shared history…battles lost or won…our uncommon Heritage or what it means to be an American...for each and every one of us have been created through a unique tale of tragedies and triumphs, failures and successes, loves and losses…these are the forces that define us...that challenge us...ground us…the experiences that make us each rare and precious within our profound existence.

A beginning can be a turbulent time...and yet, we here find ourselves drawn to the chaos to stand united within our Hope.

Longing to have our individual voices heard in harmony, to enlighten those who are seemingly oblivious to the dangers of being mislead down a path of reckless abandon, to restore and improve our governance, We the People have gathered here to forge a Monument to America…not of steel and stone upon the shifting sands of time, but based upon the principles and doctrines which have brought forth this great revolution of conscience guiding us to a better, stronger and brighter future for all of mankind...a Beacon of Freedom calling us ever closer to Home...to America.

Indy

Re: post above... Read more at link. Requires registration.

Good article by Michael Kinsley.

Getting Our Vocabulary Straightened Out

We live by American PRINCIPLES founded by our Fore-fathers more than 220 years ago...not by the morallistic "values" of the Christian Reconstructionists.

PRINCIPLES: Pronunciation: 'prin(t)-s(&-)p&l, -s&-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, modification of Middle French principe, from Latin principium beginning, from princip-, princeps initiator -- more at PRINCE
1 a : a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1) : a rule or code of conduct (2) : habitual devotion to right principles c : the laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device
2 : a primary source : ORIGIN
3 a : an underlying faculty or endowment b : an ingredient (as a chemical) that exhibits or imparts a characteristic quality

Principles are the beginning...the initiators...the Natural Rights we all share as humans...and Americans.

Let us use this as a cornerstone from which to share and spread our ideas...our PRINCIPLES which are founded but the rights of all of mankind, and described in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The Neocons and Christian Reconstructionists CANNOT take our Hearts and Minds...so let us use them in harmony to effect this change as is OUR RIGHT!

I have lost track of the number of times I become angry when the media refers to John Kerry as the "pro-abortion" candidate, preferring that label to pro-choice, especially in my liberal home town newspaper. And how is it that we have let the Rebublicans usurp the pro-life label? I took to wearing both pro-life -- pro-Kerry and pro-choice -- pro-Kerry buttons when doing campaign work. Isn't it time we democrats took back the label that best describes our policies? Fact is the Democrats have always supported pro-life issues during pregnancy and beyond birth; Democratic administartions result in a lower abortion rates than Republicans, a lower teen pregnancy rate, more jobs, better health care for all, all policies that make it easier for a woman to care for the children she gives birth to. How can that not be seen as pro-life? Every time the media calls a democrat pro-abortion or a republican pro-life we activists need to call them on the error and on the hypocracy of those claiming to be pro-life while supporting policies that are the exact opposite. I don't know if the 100,000 civilians dead in Iraq is an accurate figure, but even half that number is criminal for a war based on lies and deceit. TAKE BACK THE LABELS THAT DESCRIBE THE VALUES DEMOCRATS HAVE ALWAYS STOOD FOR. Individual freedom and responsibility, equal opportunity, life support for the weak, pre- and post-natal care, children, mentally ill, a healthy and sustaining environment, and leadership and respect from the community of nations. That was John Kerry's message -- How can the media say he did not present a coherent message when they chose to apply labels so thoughtlessly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1027031

We should all pay close attention to this story in the Ukraine...their actions may become a 'Model' for us to follow. The big screen tv's, allowing the crowd to 'cheer and jeer' the debate right there in the street is a nice touch;)

Also, who is bringing in the food and hauling out the refuse...these things are being coordinated somewhere...

Unfortunatly, I'm afraid we may need to know some of these things over the next 4 years :/

If this doesn't tug at your heart strings, nothing will...

********************************************

Read the complete story here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038595.stm

Some responses listed below:

I remember well, times when I studied at Leeds University between 1996 and 1997. I used to hear some British people say my country was corrupt and the reputation of my country-men abroad was also bad. These events in Ukraine will materially improve Ukraine's reputation worldwide. There are many educated, sober-minded, enthusiastic people there on barricades today; it is not a drunk crowd as someone might think. Please mind that and try to think about our country in a different way! I am rejoiced to see Ukraine a subject of all breaking news in the whole world today!
Irina, Odessa, Ukraine

I guess Russia is the biggest malice for Ukraine. And now is the most suitable time to make our country free and democratic. I am the student of the National University. All my colleagues and I are participators. We are struggling for our future. We refuse to have classes now! Our parents, who are living outside Kiev, have problems now, because they were at the voter commission, where the head was paid $1,000 in order to falsify the result. My parents and other people were completely against. They were threatened! I do not want to live in such a country! Help us!
Lesya, Kiev, Ukraine

I am a citizen of Ukraine. I want my children to live in a democratic country. This president's election is showing that our government is tempering. And if even government is tempering what can we do in this country. As one people said the people in Khreschatyk are not for Yushchenko, they are against Yanukovych.
Svetlana, Kyiv, Ukraine

I am very afraid that the honest, wise and sincere people who went to the streets with orange ribbons will be killed

Alyona, Kiev, Ukraine

I am in the office now. It is empty. All the people went to Independence Square to support Yushchenko. Some people say that the supporters were paid to shout Yu-shchen-ko! It is not true. Our chief director has stood there for three days already. He is ill and has a high temperature, but he doesn't want to leave. People decorate the police shields with flowers.

There are a lot of children, students and elderly people. It is the meeting of joy and peace. My mother-in-law, who cannot go there because of her health, laughs and claps her hands when she watches TV. She watches the 5 canal only (the authority is going to close it, so that people cannot learn the truth. Yesterday her friend called from St Petersburg, Russia. She didn't know that Yanukovych was twice in prison: for robbery and for maiming.

Besides, he had to go to prison for rape (the girl took back her declaration) and for pilferage. People in Russia are fooled as they do not have all the information. So are the people in regions who support Yanukovych. They are ignorant about his background. My mother-in-law's friend was very surprised, but then the connection stopped suddenly. I am very afraid that the honest, wise and sincere people who went to the streets with orange ribbons will be killed.
Alyona, Kiev, Ukraine

I would like to thank international community for its support and attention. Without you we would be on our own. Keep on pressing on the current regime. My heart is happy to see how our country is changing for the better. Kyiv is orange, demonstrations in support of Yushchenko are all over Ukraine - people do not want to live with oligarchs and want to live in accordance with democratic values. You cannot stop freedom!
Sergiy Sklyarenko, Kyiv, Ukraine

I've just returned from the streets. It's snowing heavily, but thousands of people are out there waving our national blue and yellow flags, orange ribbons, scarves and flags. There is no official gathering now, but we are going round the city, particularly in the centre in Freedom avenue, shouting out "We are together, there are a lot of us, you cannot overcome us", "Yushchenko is our president".
Nataliya Kitsera, Lviv, Ukraine

Expressing your choice, your opinion, being heard and respected, - those are basic human rights. At least it is so in a truly democratic society, that Ukraine is struggling to be. So it is only natural that people are protesting all over the country, and defending the choice they've made. It feels great to be part of it. Am so proud of us that for the first time ever in modern Ukrainian history, awareness of a nation reached has such a high level. The atmosphere on the streets in Kiev is fantastic, and there's no disturbance, panic or fights. Kiev city administration is doing a great job. We do appreciate all the support of the international community. And we need more of that - the way things are going, existing power is not going to give up easily. Stay with us.
Natasha Nagorna, Kiev, Ukraine

This brings tears to my eyes remembering protests in Romania in 1990. The peaceful protests were led by students in the University Square in Bucharest, but were crushed when the 'newly-elected' government ferried in a large number of miners to disperse the protesters. Students or non-students, many protesters were beaten up savagely, some were even killed. I heard on the news here in the States that Yanukovych is bringing in the miners to defend the official election results - I hope it is just a rumour. My thoughts are with the freedom-loving Ukrainian people.
Raluca, Orlando, FL, USA

I am a citizen of the United States of Ukrainian descent. I have been taught the Ukrainian language, culture, history and politics since I was old enough to speak. What is happening in Ukraine is quite monumental. I fear for the Ukrainian people should they decide that the elections will not be investigated further and that Yanukovych is the rightful winner. He is not. If Yanukovych wins, Ukraine's fate will again be in the hands of Russia and those who are ready to go back to the Communist way of doing business. Ukraine needs to be rid of this government in order to flourish and reach its democratic potential.
Andrea, New York, USA

There a few LTE's posted on the Unofficial Blog that I think everyone will appreciate:

Kerry Supporters Can Be The Loyal Opposition - http://kerryblog.blogspot.com/2004/11/kerry-supporters-can-be-loyal.html

Speaking of the media....
I still can't watch the news shows in full. Still much too angry. However I did manage to catch the last couple of minutes of Chris Matthew's Sunday Show on NBC and they seemed to have been discussing the sorry ass media we have now. Of course Tucker tried to say the poor media coverage has been the "liberal media's" fault as though there is even such a thing. Fineman,who is equally as annoying, tried to discredit Walter Conkrite by claiming that it's always been this way because "when Walter Conkrite said that's the way it is, it really wasn't." What an ass. Fineman, isn't worthy to carry Conkrite's jock strap. How dare he? Someone (can't remember who but probably was Matthews) did bring up that the news media has sucked for the last 20 years. To Matthews' credit he did seem to acknowledge this by saying he tells people to read and view a variety of media sources to get the truth or at least a better idea of what's going on. I agree with him on this because I think that's something WE here all do. It's those who don't follow the news and right or wrong trust one or two news sources to get their news who are duped into voting for idiots. Yeah they should take time out of their busy schedules like we all do to give a damn about what's really going on but at the same time mainstream news outlets should be much more responsible and balanced in their reporting to accommodate a rapidly moving society. A little truth and accuracy is not too much to ask from those in the news business, because guess what, that is suppose to be there business. I swear if I wasn't online and had the ability to read international news as well as Dem blogs,I wouldn't have a clue as to what is going on. Most people that I know aren't into the pol blogs and news sites. Thank God they vote Dem just because they have the good sense God gave them. But as we all know everyone is not as fortunate.

Also in the discussion Chris did bring up the point that they lied about WMD and that the media went along with it. As much as I tease Mr. Juicy Mouth at least he's willing to keep repeating this since so many kool-air drinkers still think we're over there searching for WMD. Cokie Roberts of course played media apologist. Which brings up some more observations from Matthews' show today:
*Why is Cokie Roberts continually asked back on Matthews' show? she adds nothing to the conversation but silly, awkward quotes. Today was not the first time I noticed this. She's no longer credible to me. She's strictly a teleprompter created sensation with a cutesy name. Blech! Haven't cared for her since the whole Elian thing anyway.

*NBC's Norah Roberts (as well as he smiley blonde chick on CNN) both said today there is some showdown between the Repubs in Congress and Shrub coming over 9/11 policy and other legislation congressional repubs are dying to push through. Does anyone buy this nonsense? I have no doubt Congressional repubs are for the most part Shrub loyalists and they are leaking this sh*t story out to make the president look moderate. Shrub gets to play good cop to their bad cop. I'm not falling for it. The set up is if Shrub's 9/11 deal doesn't pass (which he didn't want in the first place and only relunctantly agreed to because he was running for president) he can blame it on all the Congressional Repubs who are more than willing to take the bullet for their guy. That way the deification of Shrub can continue. It'll be that bad ol' Congress that's to blame. Same thing goes for the Congressional Repubs. They'll push for stuff to make their base think they are working for them but in reality, with a president more concerned about his legacy than policy, he'll never sign off on. Oh sure his handlers will get some zingers through here and there that favor big business because that's their chief constituent, but overall I think his handlers want him and the neo-con movement to appear as moderate and mainstream as possible so it can continue forth. Unfortunately and perhaps scarily their agenda doesn't begin and end with Shrub.

*And finally, I swear I think Matthews voted for Kerry. The few minutes of his shows I have caught since 11/2 have made me believe this. The comments he's made seem to suggest this. Of course he probably won't reveal who he voted for until the next prez election cycle. But I swear he did. Anyone else think so?

And that's my Sunday rant!

Posted by: bob-in-co | November 28, 2004 12:23 PM --

love the post! especially: "TAKE BACK THE LABELS THAT DESCRIBE THE VALUES DEMOCRATS HAVE ALWAYS STOOD FOR. Individual freedom and responsibility, equal opportunity, life support for the weak, pre- and post-natal care, children, mentally ill, a healthy and sustaining environment, and leadership and respect from the community of nations."

since i'm not as well-spoken as you, i will memorize it and use it. i hope you don't mind. i need to learn how to speak to people in a non-threatening way in this very red district i live in. i learn so much from ALL of you. THANK YOU!!!

Reproductive Choice Is Fading Fast

November 28, 2004
EDITORIAL
Chipping Away at Roe vs. Wade

With no hearings or debate, the Republican majority this month grafted the Abortion Non-Discrimination Act onto the $388-billion appropriations bill, approved last week. Although the name implies it protects women who are seeking abortions from discrimination, the reverse is true. The act legalizes discrimination, allowing any physician, hospital or health insurer to refuse to perform or pay for abortions and even to tell pregnant women that the option exists. That new right will extend, in practice, to employers, who get to pick which health plans a company will offer.

http://kerryblog.blogspot.com/2004/11/reproductive-choice-is-fading-fast.html

More "Lockdowns" in Florida

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=80870&mesg_id=80870

pcdoc,

I just finished watching my weekly info show, called "7 à 8", on TFI.

First topic : the revolution in Ukraine following Viktor Viktorovic (I'm not certain about last name) head of Potka , the resistance cell.
They started working on the project some 5 months ago with the help of an American Foundation supplementing money. The fact is laid flat, and they all speak English in the office
.
Their marketing plan is rather good and rests a lot upon young people.
1 - They ridicule and decredibilize the opponent candidate, through street shows denouncing such or such fraud or misbehaviour. Their aim : striking VISUALLY the crowds to print the message.
2 - Training of local youthful cells heads = simple message, information hotline, hard marketing towards visibility as colour. Easy to see, easy to share, not uniformed.
3 - Very strong logistics : tents, resting rooms, food in order to keep everybody on alert as long as the conflict is going on.
4- Ground occupation during the elections : people either sleep in front ofthe poll stations, protest, gather... to keep the pression upon the opponent...

Sacha, the guy who ran the thing last year in Tbilissi, Georgia, was there as well in order to help.

The irony would be that the process would slash back to the government's face....

Call the hotline, they are ready to give any information!

Posted by: bob-in-co | November 28, 2004 12:23 PM

Great points!

I'd also state that the media intentionally chose "consultants" who were not even part of Kerry's inner circle to "represent" his POV--while they consistantly chose Bush's "inner circle" to represent his (ie. people who actually met Bush and visited him in the W.H.).

The media intentionally decides what message they WANT to put out, and often that message has LITTLE to do with REALITY and LOTS to do with an AGENDA.

Their agenda moves forward. Since they can't teach creationism in schools, the Religious Right took a new approach. They changed the name. It's the same exact thing, but now they call it "Intelligent Design." And guess what... it's working!

Creationism is now required in some Pennsylvania public schools. http://www.itaffectsyou.org/blog/index.php?p=106

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=80870&mesg_id=82826&page=

Palm Beach voting problems and suppression.

The merchandise from this Web site should become Christmas gift-giving must-haves!
http://www.dontblamemeivoted4kerry.com/

I especially love the bumpersticker that reads - Draft Republicans.

Posted by: up2date | November 28, 2004 02:49 PM

Is teaching creationism a problem for you or only if they refuse to teach evolution too? Does teaching creationism create problems with maintaining a separation in church and state? What do you think?

(just a question or two...)

Posted by: sparrow | November 28, 2004 02:54 PM

In a word...

YES!!!

It is foolish religious mythology and should not be taught in Public Schools!

Posted by: bob-in-co | November 28, 2004 12:23 PM

Thank you my thoughts exactly

Kangaroo Queensland Australia

Posted by: sparrow | November 28, 2004 02:54 PM

Yes, teaching creationism in public schools is a problem for me. I have no issues whatsoever with parents teaching it to their children or with it being taught in private schools, churches, or other such places. It does not belong in public schools (as a science) regardless of whether they also teach evolution.

Now, if it is included in the curriculum as part of a study of creation stories from various cultures and religions, it's a different story. But masquerading it as science is inappropriate.

Posted by: sparrow | November 28, 2004 02:54 PM

My problem with teaching creationism is that it makes it seem as if it's the ONLY alternative to evolution. Different cultures and religions have different beliefs. ...since when was it only the Judeo-Christian belief or evolution?

Another interesting article about the vote fraud in Ohio - see especially the part about the Ohio Chief Justice results, compared with votes for Kerry - something's not right.

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/944

I was a life sciences teacher in Ontario for many years, and I happily complied and taught "creationism' in my 11th grade biology classes. It was a blast.

It is not taught as an alternative to evolution, but rather as an example of the many possibilities of the beginning of evolution, more as an alternative to the big bang theory, perhaps. Certainly if there is a god he/she could have invented evolution.

As a teacher, I don't believe in keeping information or ideas from children; rather, I believe in giving them a multitude of possibilities and letting them sort things out for themselves. I never saw teaching creationism as anything more than a part of that.

I think as progressives we are going to have to learn to compromise on some things if we want to win the support of the moderate majority in this country, a majority that supports the real principles in which we believe.

No one here can say that God did not create the world. No one. We can only say that we don't believe he/she did.

You guys seen this yet?? Grab a box of kleenex....

http://www.hategun.com/features/getoverit/

Posted by: Amy | November 28, 2004 04:50 PM

i have always taught children, the more you know, the better decisions you make!!

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!

Posted by: Amy | November 28, 2004 04:50 PM

Hi Amy

I feel that teaching creationism is appropriate on certain levels... such as a part of the whole and varied views.

The way you have described how it was taught in your class makes sense to me. Replacing evolution with creationism does not however.

I believe that nearly every culture has their own creationism myths. We fought long and hard to uncover the the histories of matriarchial societies in our world that were buried by the fear filled Christians. Likewise the great and varied myths of the various Native American Tribes that the Christians sought to bury.

I feel that there is so much to learn from all the cultures and mythology of our world and our children can benefit from learning these things, as too can we adults.

What my biggest concern is with this issue is not that the Fundamentalists seek to teach this in our schools, but that they seek to replace evolution and ultimately perhaps the teaching of the history of religions of our world and mythology.

My daughter is studying AP World History currently. Although they touch briefly on various religions in the course, she is fascinated by all of it.

The Bible is actually considered to be literature, as is Roman and Greek mythology.

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/944

Posted by: KerryisKing | November 28, 2004 04:19 PM

I got a knot in my stomach reading this, on top of course of all the other related things I came across in the last couple of weeks. Do you think something might come out of this? Do you think that we should WANT for something to come out if this? By "something" I do not mean just getting a correct vote count, which is obviously something good and something that should be done, but an actual overturn of the election results. Do not misunderstand me, I would be overwhelmed with joy if somehow a magical wand would send Bush to the trash can of history, a place he so thoroughly deserves, right here & now, . But magical wand aside, and given the relatively large number of votes across the country that SEEM at least to have went for Bush, would the mess resulting from a change in the Ohio results really be a good thing? These are not rethorical questions, I am really not sure what to wish for. Any thoughts out there?

Posted by: Pamela | November 28, 2004 05:16 PM
"The Bible is actually considered to be literature, as is Roman and Greek mythology."

My kids have been raised UU so they have gotten to explore and learn about alot of different religions and cultures. The Bible and readings used by other religions are all "weighted" the same, if you will...no one book is given preference over the other and each week the kids would learn about a different culture.
The youth group also has a class called "O.W.L"..or "Our Whole Lives". It's a sex ed class that lasts for a few months. Both my girls went thru it and enjoyed it. Texas schools can take it's abstinence only crap and stick it where the sun don't shine. I wanted my kids to know what to expect in the REAL world...

Irina -

Many of us have been following these accounts of fraud since Nov. 3rd. This article is just one of many regarding such events. I think we all pray that somehow, some way, justice will prevail, and the results will be overturned. The main worry is that the same far-reaching corruption that allowed them to do this in the first place, might also prevent us from doing much about it now. Sadly, the ones responsible for all the wrongdoing would be the same ones who own the voting machines, and have many friends in positions of power in congress and as judges. That's what we're up against. I have to leave for the day, but I know there are many people on this site that would be happy to furnish you with more information about voting irregularities.

KiK (love the handle :-), the issue I was trying to raise in my previous post was whether overturning the results, assuming for a moment that it happens, would actually be a good thing, given the circumstances. I read quite a lot about various reported irregularities, I followed some of the links people here have provided, but I had "done my homework" even before I came across this site. Yes, suspicious things HAVE happened, yes, they may be deliberate, but some of irregularities will be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to prove, especially those related to the famous paperless e-voting machines; statistical analysis is not a proof, it can only be at most a very strong indication of something, but not more than that, so a cloud of suspicion and illegitimacy would always be there.

If creationism is simply that some entity, God, set it all in motion and the big bang and evolution, DNA coding of the whole development process as it is passed on generation to generation, then it is appropriate to bring that up as an explanation as to how it all started. Along with theories about how intelligence can come out of chaos. But if creationism goes beyond that to the point of a litteral description of how it started found in the Book of Genesis, then we have stepped over the boundary of Science and Religion. In a Science class, the scientific method should be the overriding principle. The creation story of Genesis quickly fails or is an inferior explanation of the facts around us, whereas the theory of evolution stands up to numerous empirical tests. I guess I had thought that Creationism was more of an alternative theory that tries to remain consistent with a litteral interpretation of the Bible. Those who promote the teaching of creationism as an alternative scientific theory to evolution must be required to defend it using the scientific method in science class.

No one here can say that God did not create the world. No one. We can only say that we don't believe he/she did.
Posted by: Amy | November 28, 2004 04:50 PM

But I do think that HE/SHE/IT did create it. But I don't it happened as it was described in Genesis, nor do I think that human beings have a clue about the true nature of God - least of all Jerry Falwell and his ilk.

...since when was it only the Judeo-Christian belief or evolution?
Posted by: NativeTexan4Kerry | November 28, 2004 03:50 PM

Amen, brother. As America becomes a truly multi-cultural country, such myopic thinking is completely unacceptable. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of creation myths - and I see no reason to treat Genesis as intellectual superior to any of them, except as a form of literature (especially when set to music by Franz Josef Haydn).

hi all!
just discovered this site today, this is awesome, glad to see familiar names, I hope some of you remember me from the K/E blog..
I was "on.to.victory" on the K/E blog...
Sure have missed you guys! First came shock & denial, then came despair, now I'm on.to recovery! Looking forward to visiting here often, for inspiration & to continue moving democracy forward--->>

And with regard to the worth of so-called "moral values"...

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
Where morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

- Lao Tse, Tao Te Ching (as translated by Stephen Mitchell)

My problem with teaching creationism is that it makes it seem as if it's the ONLY alternative to evolution. Different cultures and religions have different beliefs. ...since when was it only the Judeo-Christian belief or evolution?
Posted by: NativeTexan4Kerry | November 28, 2004 03:50 PM

In science, there are no alternatives to the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection (the entire correct term for the theory of evolution). The term "theory" in science means that it is an explanation of a Law. A Law is established once there is insurmountable evidence for it based on observations and empirical data that has been repeated. Science does not mess around when something is established as a law - think of the Law of Gravity as another example. Other examples: Newton's Laws of Motion, Laws of Thermodynamics (there are many others, mostly named after the scientist that did the major work that led to the creation of the law)

It is not appropriate in a science class to go into belief systems to explain natural processes. Science is based on observations and data. Would it be acceptable to use biblical, faith based or mystical reasons to explain the Law of Gravity? No.

Here is a terrific link for the National Science Teachers Association position paper on teaching evolution. This is a great resource to use to clear up misconceptions and advocate for teaching science in science classrooms:

http://www.nsta.org/positionstatement&psid=10

Posted by: bob-in-co | November 28, 2004 06:49 PM

Creationism is not simply an explanation of how evolution started - far from it. Scientists do not have a Theory of Creationism to explain how the universe began. There is the Big Bang Theory that is a scientific explanation, so that is appropriate to teach because it is based on real science - empirical data that has been replicated.

The minute it becomes acceptable for science classes to teach faith based explanations for scientific laws, we are all in trouble. We are inviting a return to pre-Enlightenment thinking.

I am a 21 year veteran of science teaching and a Christian. My faith beliefs were learned outside of the science classroom - in my church and in my home where those things are most appropriately taught in our diverse society.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems | November 28, 2004 08:11 PM

I enjoyed your posts on the Kerry blog- it's great to see you back! =)

THX, NativeTex!
Just found this site today, thanks to the link from RonC's site, so THX also, to Ron.
I've been busy reading past threads here, its so good to see so many familiar names here.
This has been a tough month to endure, no doubt about that! Glad to be aboard once again, will return often & hopefully contribute to this new democracy community.

CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) is running the story of Dr. Helen (Nobel Peace prize winner) that is calling out Bush on the nuclear weapons use right now on any Canadian station or check out the web site.

She is a gutsy lady!!!
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/helenswar/index.html

Perhaps the only thing I find more frightening in this frightening world than the government trying to define and control our belief in God, is the uselessly ubiquitous media ordaining their choices with the echo-chamber induced imprimatur of truth.

Posted by: rainbow4321 | November 28, 2004 05:33 PM

It's wonderful that your UU church youth group teaches sex ed to it's members. You won't find that in a more traditional or conservative church. Abstinence only teaching is not appropriate for our public schools and only asking for trouble. Places where it is taught already have shown that it does not work. It's not realistic in this world we live in to not prepare our children for life.

I think the bias in the media is a huge problem for us in this country and in future elections. With their hold on the media, we are letting the neocons define us, and many Democratic leaders are falling for the trap. Every time one of us agrees with them that we need to move to the CENTER and be more CENTRIST or have a more CENTRIST party chair, I cringe. When they say we lost on moral issues, I cringe.

I think that is their analysis for us because that is a way they can win. If we do not embrace immigration issues, if we do not take up black voter suppression, if we do not champion the causes of pro-choice, and if we do not stand up for the rights of Gays in our society, then they have won--they will make us intolerant like they are, and continue to claim vicotry.

I hope the analysis the DEMS end with is--voter fraud and voter suppression are the reasons we lost--not morals and ideology. And that getting a handle on the media is how we win--not moving to the CENTER.

I'd like to see the dems spend their time getting their own 24/7 news show, and tearing down voter suppression--not moving center or trying to be more "moral" than they are.

http://www.mcall.com/news/opinion/letters/all-r...…

Gifts to Bush family are troubling, too

This is an interesting commentary about what is NOT covered by the neo-con media and how we are duped to believe what THEY want us to believe.

Yes, our own news show would be a great place to start.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/30/ukraine_election/index_np.html

Where democracy refuses to die

The media was pro-government. In much of the country, the election machinery was controlled by the ruling party. Voter fraud was rampant. But the people of Ukraine will not surrender.

Progressive American voters, still downcast over the results of the presidential election -- as well as an election system gravely impaired by the antiquated Electoral College, fraud-inviting electronic machines, and rampant political abuses -- can take vicarious pleasure these days from Ukrainian democracy. Throughout the presidential campaign in the former Soviet republic, opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko struggled against a government-controlled media and election machinery that heavily favored his opponent, Viktor Yanukovych, the handpicked successor to the country's corrupt and thuggish president, Leonid Kuchma. But when Yushchenko was denied victory in the Nov. 21 election, after widespread fraud, the opposition leader and his supporters did not fade away -- they took to the streets and refused to accept the official version of the election.

With the Ukrainian Supreme Court still deliberating the opposition's election challenge -- and the democratic revolution in full flower on the wintry streets of Kiev -- Salon spoke with Olena Prytula, editor in chief of Ukrayinska Pravda (Ukrainian Truth), the courageous Web site that has been responsible for some of the country's only aggressive, independent coverage of the Kuchma regime. Prytula's partner, Georgi Gongadze, was kidnapped, murdered and beheaded four years ago -- an execution that a former bodyguard of Kuchma later charged was personally ordered by the president. In the past few weeks, Prytula and her small staff have thrown themselves into covering the dramatic election and aftermath, with traffic to her site ballooning to five times the normal flow. Prytula spoke by phone from Kiev, after another long, exhausting day, about the democratic uprising that contains "some small part of my work and my soul."
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Why can't we do this? Why does Colin Powell champion these people for "democracy" and "fair voting" but not us? (We know the answer to that)