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Pass the Gravy, please
How many of you had the joyful experience of sitting at the Thanksgiving dinner table with one or more (or all!) of your relatives expounding on the glories of the Republicans' successes at the polls on November 2? I don't know about you, but there's nothing to make a good meal go sour faster than not being able to eat because you're busy fending off attacks from your more conservative relations.
A little late for Thanksgiving, but still in plenty of time for Christmas, I came across this excerpt from George Lakoff's latest book, Don't Think of an Elephant!: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate, Lakoff is the distinguished linguist who argues that progressives need to learn how to "reframe" their arguments. (If you're watching the NFL right now, you might think of this approach in terms of whose field you're playing on, yours or your opponents.)
Click here to read Lakoff's condensed version of how to handle conservatives at the dinner table or the water cooler; there's even a short 4-item list that you could ink on the inside of your wrist as a reminder when your Uncle Bob starts going on about why people without health care deserved their fate.
For more information on Lakoff's work on how to frame progressive political arguments, visit the Rockridge Institute's web site.
first?
Hehe yay! my first first on this blog =)
Fortunately, all my family are proud Democrats. ...but living in Texas, I do get alot thrown at me from all the bush lovers here...
I had all Democrats - we were congenial, spirited and hungry.
I have an Evangelical Christian cousin and her family. They were here for Thanksgiving--we did not discuss politics, but they have bought into the Bush garbarge and before the election, her 14 year old daughter told me that Kerry kills babies. I told her I could not believe she attended one of THOSE churches. Her dad, a small busniess owner, believes that Bush's tax cuts have been good for small business owners, totally misguided.
I also have an uncle who is a Catholic who believes that abortion is murder and that gays should all be shot, but he forgives the Catholic church for harboring pedofiles because the church had to protect itself. He and I did get into it on Thanksgiving and he got very frustrated when I kept pointing out all of his inconsistencies in thought and deed.
Overall, a great day with 25 people here to celebrate and give Thanks--we have agreed to disagree and can enjoy each other's company.
I'm still laughing, the ONLY member of my family who dared to even THINK about voting for shurb forgot to return his absentee ballot in time. I acutally think he did it on purpose, he was getting pressue from all sides, both parents and inlaws are diehard Dems, but he works for a company that depends on defense contracts. Scared to death that Kerry might end the war too soon.
According to family rule he has lost complaining rights for the next four years.
"Don't vote, don't b!T*h" has always been the motto.
I found this artical in the NY Times and thought it was inspirational. It tells the story of how the news was broken on the rebellion in the Ukraine by a signer for the deaf!!! Read more here:
http://members.cox.net/movingforwardtogether/a.silent.act.of.rebellion.htm
I pulled the artical from the nytimes and posted it on my own page (for those that are not reg'ed with the nytimes) for those that are, the original story can be found here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/28/international/29media.ready.html
While visiting in Seattle, my nephew and I shared a shuttle with a pretty young woman, my nephew's age, and her parents. We were off to dinner. They were off to the Nutcracker.
My nephew was congenial and interested and flirting with the young woman, and for awhile, the trip throughout the city, taking a Seattle tour, was quite enjoyable, until my nephew mentioned excitedly how there were so many young people at his campus who participated in the post-election protest on campus. The young woman said, dismissively: "They should all just get over it."
Floored by her callousness, my first impulse was to belt her a verbal good one, but her parents were in the back seat. The elderly women sitting in front of us, previously exuberant and chatty, were immediately deathly quiet. I nudged my nephew to drop the conversation and the silence in the van was mortifying---to the girl and her family. She worked very hard to recover. I maintained my silence.
I actually don't know WHAT to say these days. Because I can't say whether or not we really won or lost. I have ALOT of opinions about what could be happening, and of course my usual opinions about Bush.
But more than that, I wanted that young lady to know that such platitudes about "getting over it" are not genuine to the circumstance nor to the community of democrats and everyone who did not vote for Bush. Far from it.
We took our democracy seriously this year. And continue to do so--We don't get over that. Not as quickly as they would like, not as quickly as the media would like to dismiss it, and I hope for those long and uncomfortable three minutes of silence, that young woman and all those who voted for Bush, going through their lives as if everything is alright, realize that maybe, just maybe, people are thinking alot harder about what happened to us. And that this reality is far different than what they would like to believe.
We are thinking, and taking everything said, done and proclaimed in our name very seriously. And its nothing to get over.
We were with all Dems too, but spent a lot of time trying to explain the entire campaign/election continuum. It was great to hear how many people genuinely love John Kerry and John Edwards and it was hard to see how heart-broken some were.
But I am also thinking hard about how to talk with those friends who go into a robotic state when it comes to religion and the candidates. The most outrageous and improbable stuff comes out of their mouths! And much of it is so contrary to the way they actually live their lives and assess anything else that I find myself standing there, incredulous!
So I want to learn how to address that part of their brains where critical thinking goes on. And how can they get that part of the brain to talk to those seemingly hard-wired beliefs that have so little to do with advancing civilation or humanity?
I think Lakoff is really onto something major. Reading over his site, I see the power of stories and metaphors to get people past their own limited feedback loops.
Practicing this approach begins tomorrow!
Wonderful holiday with family who all supported JK/JE.
Two days later, met a group of people at a house warming party who are starving for the means and methods to reverse what is happening to our country. This group was energetically sharing ideas, and perceptions about what happened with the last election, and the best way to remedy the problem.
The enthusiasm was so strong and pervasive, I felt a rush of excitement just knowing there were others like me who are just as determined to change our country for the better. We have to tap into this huge resource to deliver our message. We need a way to broadly communicate our message(s) to people at the local level. After that is accomplished, people will feel motivated to explore the internet for the information and resources that they can use to help further our cause.
I certainly haven't read Lakoff cover to cover, but I don't think he's into what I'm contemplating right now: Not only do we need to reclaim our own descriptors, we need to come up with negative words for describing the neocons.
right wing MBAs for example.
Corporate Lobbyists.
Billionaires.
CEOs
Sheesh!! Talk about the economic elite!!
and how about -
Materialistic anti-tax people.
Consumption fanatics.
Anti-environmentalists.
Gun lovers.
Anti social program people.
Let's get names for these folks that say the quintessential truth about them, names that are short, catchy and accurate.
WE focus so much on name calling, and on the misled-on-matters-of-religion crowd, that we forget to identify and shine a bad light on the people really responsible for the mess we're in.
Just two points.
As a foreigner, you have no idea of how uneasy I feel at all this religious stuff in the middle of politics. May I remind you that John Kerry himself stated that "he didn't carry his religion on his sleeve".... but that social reforms prooved a lot .
Those are strong values, aren't they?
Now, a little story. An American friend visited me during summer and she came for dinner with buddies. We sat.... and she started to say grace without asking, which is a tremendous offense to people in France: she trespassed upon our personal freedoms. The silence was impressioning... We didn't say a word, but the glances were telling, and I can assure you she felt very, very bad.
When we say separation of church and state, it's real separation.
You must not trespass on one side or another. Religion is religion and it's private, politics are politics and are public. Why do you tend to mix everything like reps? There's a great diversity among dems and liberals.
Fe, I've seen the pictures taken in Seattle. You forgot to say that your nephew is absolutely dashing. Liked your story.
Fe~I love your story. I have been repeatedly struck by how little the 59 m understand the 56m. They can't beleieve we really are upset.
BTW~This site and institute is awesome....this is the way to regain some competance in our Government.
in some conversations I can get folks to break through the fog by shifting to a "common sense" point...ie. ideology all aside, I just hate that these guys can't manage a damn thing....look what they've done to the war..I get so worried by folks who stonewall dissenting opinons. You never get good decsions without dissent.
And then change the subject...often to sports...
Luckily, my Thanksgiving involoved all Democrats as well. I wasn't in any mood to fake a smile to a Repub relative. Many of the people around the Thanksgiving dessert table were not only Democrats, but Boston Democrats! It was interesting (and heartbreaking) to hear their stories of life in Boston in early November. On one hand they were so thrilled about the Red Sox, but then utterly dissapointed and depressed over the elction. But, the good news is that everyone seemed completely energized to get involoved in the next election!
from Lakoff's work:
"The last was my own hot button. Every time someone would scream “abortion,” “baby-killer,” etc., I’d suggest that if they are anti-abortion, then by all means, they should not have one."
i've discussed this with a friend and stated that if they outlaw abortions, there will always be someone who is desparate enough to get one--will it be safe--will it hurt her chances to get pregnant again--will it kill her from an infection or bleeding--what's worse: 2 lives or 1....
the friend agreed on those points but she came back with--i don't want my tax dollars spent on abortions. i didn't know how to respond to that. do we help the poor pay for abortions?
How about, "I don't want my tax dollars spent on funding a war that is killing innocent men, women and children based solely on lies"
ok, I know it's off-topic, but, let's call a spade a a spade.
GEEZ, these people are thick.
sc kitty,
That might come down to a question of whether the government should get involved with specifics of health care decisions. If someone is on a government paid health care plan, do they want the government to get involved to the point of making decisions as to the specifics of their health care? This might appeal to conservatives distrust of "big governernment." A government who makes decisions for people on one health care issue could also make decisions for people on other decisions.
Realistically I suspect that the trend will be to make abortion more difficult for the poor and we might be forced to accept this as opposed to outright outlawing abortion.
sckitty,
I thought that there was little public funding for abortions left, and it seems I was correct. This item is from NARAL's website:
NARAL Pro-Choice America Issue Brief: Public Funding for Abortion
Summary:
Since 1977, the so-called "Hyde Amendment" has prohibited federal Medicaid funds from paying for most abortion for low-income women. In its current form, the Hyde Amendment bans federal funding for abortion except in cases of rape, incest, or life endangerment. This briefing paper includes NARAL Pro-Choice America's position statement.
The full document is available at:
http://www.naral.org/facts/im_public_funding.cfm
Marc --
Good to see you survived the hurricanes. I got back to CA from Ohio Thanksgiving afternoon in time for holiday dinner with relatives and friends at my niece's in-laws.
Scannning here, stumbled on song lyrics (of all things!). Still enjoying your posts . . .
Love & Peace, Bob
Gravy Train
by Mark Knopfler
Well they fly past the ghettos and the factories
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Leaving all the places that they really ought to brave
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Past the coal mines black and scarred
Starter houses in the loading yard
On the Gravy Train, On the Gravy Train
There's the lucky little mothers in their luxury cars
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Never thank each other or their lucky stars
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
That's worse than ingratitude
Worse than a piss poor attitude
On the Gravy Train, Gravy Train
Well the hanger-uppers and the hangers-on
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Champagne suppers with their daggers all drawn
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Some act tough, some act rude
Some bit of fluff complain about the food
You wanna see somebody getting really rude
Get on the Gravy Train, Gravy Train
Well the golden goose is clattering-a-down the track,
And they're gonna be ridin' in an old caboose
Coming back
There's the soldiers of fashion on the hit parade
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Tongue lashing with the bitch brigade
Ridin' on the Gravy Train
Free loader licks my boots
Tells me how he digs my suit
You got lucky son, don't get cute
Get on the Gravy Train
thanks marc!! good answer!!
thanks karen for the link!
thanks dr chusid!! btw i got quite a few kerry votes from health professionals because of your posts {{though not enough here in south carolina :-( }}
Medicaid is primarily a state program, so information on a federal ban doesn't really answer the question. Any information on how much is spent on abortion by Medicaid programs? I wonder if this varies by states--it might be a predictor of which states would be more likely to restrict abortion if Row v. Wade is overturned.
Elizabeth Edwards responded to a question about federal funding for abortions at a town hall meeting at the YWCA in Columbus, Ohio Oct. 11. Here is one excerpt from the coverage of the event and her response:
“When asked if the Democratic presidential ticket would compromise with abortion-rights foes and outlaw public funding for abortion clinics if it meant protecting reproductive rights, Mrs. Edwards responded, "I don't think I can help you."
“Mrs. Edwards said such a policy would discriminate against low-income people.
"It is not enough to say you have the right to choose, if you have a dollar in your pocket," she added.”
http://www.uawlocal14.org/News/Local/10-12ElizEdwards.htm
In order for us to beat the enemy we must first understand it and its plans. Apparently the Evil Overlord of the GOP - Karl Rove - is featured in this week's Newsweek laying out his plans for GOP rule forever. I can barely hold down breakfast reading it but I thought I would share it with those of you with stronger stomach than mine -- http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6596809/site/newsweek/
It doesn't look like Bush has much of a mandate on abortion:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aR8KuF8.NIiE&refer=home#
(Of course Bush doesn't really want a MANDATE. That word sounds way too gay for him.)
Blue Islands, Red Seas AlterNet.
The real great divide in American politics is not between red and blue states, but between urban and rural voters.
We’ve all seen the map of the 2004 presidential election, with the "three coasts" of blue states parted by the red sea of conservatism. That’s fine and good if we simply want to understand electoral politics on a state-by-state basis. Trouble is, that’s not an accurate way to understand what happened on Nov. 2.
The real great American divide is not between the red and blue states, it is between urban and rural America.
Although the popular vote was just a three-point spread, the acreage of the counties that supported Kerry were just a fraction of the landscape. According to USA Today, the counties voting Democratic encompassed 511,700 square miles, a mere 17 percent of the country, while the less densely populated Bush Country dominates from coast to coast. (Alaska was not included in the USA Today data).
Almost every state — red or blue — had urban areas that voted overwhelming for Kerry as well as counties (in which the livestock frequently outnumber the people) that voted for Bush by a 3-1 margin. For example, in John Ashcroft's home state of Missouri, Bush received 54 percent of the vote, making it a red state. But Kerry won the city of St. Louis by an overwhelming 81 percent; he also won the two other most populous counties in the state, St. Louis and Jackson counties, according to data from CNN.com.
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20609/
Hi Bob! Glad to see you made it back OK. And look at where we are from where our discussions started a few weeks ago!
For everyone else, Bob came through DC for Veteran's Day and Dick and I had coffee with him and thanked him for all he did in Ohio. He, in turn, shared how important the K-E blog had been to him, and how it inspired him to become a traveller for JK-JE.
It was that conversation that really helped us to focus on the need for a blog first, so everyone could come and tell their stories and reconnect with each other. Then we knew we needed to help take that mutual support and caring for each other to a place where we all unpack what we have learned during this time together.
The next step is to take that learning to others--to help them to be as informed and empowered as we have learned to be.
We are mid-process--still reconnecting and beginning to unpack the learning. The "crew" is in the process of locating all the tools we will need to disseminate that learning.
As we build this site, please keep in mind that it is a work in progress, inspired by all of you, responsive to all of you, and generated through your contributions of ideas and actions.
Bob--glad to have you back!
Andree
We had a Catholic ask if anyone was going to say Grace, so I asked her to do it. It wasn't too bad but it was she who was uncomfortable eating without praying first, not some of the rest of us.
I do show guests my giant Kwan Yin in my garden & all my statues that some probably think are Pagan.
Speaking of religion, perhaps Russia is more tolerant than we are. They have one million Buddhists & the Dalai Lama is visiting.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4642880,00.html
Am I going nuts?
The Army gets to keep its collection of paintings by Hitler:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4642883,00.html
Update:
http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/gallery.php
Posted by: Bob Evans | November 29, 2004 09:24 AM
Hi Bob Evans!
Welcome back... I misplaced your #. There's an upcoming NFPJ event that I want to fill you in about!
I do show guests my giant Kwan Yin in my garden & all my statues that some probably think are Pagan.
Posted by: DiAnne | November 29, 2004 11:04 AM
Kwan Yin... Pagan? LOL!
I hope you set people straight DiAnne, who have that misconception.
Dianne-
Interesting about the rural and urban American divide. This actually goes back a long way to the founding of America. I remember studying the colonial Witch Trials in an American history class in college and learning that it really wasn't about witchery but instead mainly about the divisions between the rising, wealthy urban merchants of Salem Town who lived on the coast and the farmers of Salem Village who were losing power and influence to them. The shipping merchants were fast becoming the colonies new power brokers and the farmers were being left in their dust. The farmers' decline in power was most sharply seen through their loss of land. By necessity farmers would have big families and when the patriarch died he would divide the land amongst his sons. Well, it only takes a few generations of this before the amount of land each landowner posseses dwindles down to no more than a backyard. Add to that that there not being much land anyway, especially in Salem - the hotbed of the trials- and that the relatively small amount of land available was not all that favorable to farming and you have a recipe for disaster for the once powerful agrarian class. It's interesting to note that many of those accused of witchery were of the merchant class and their accusers largely farmers and/or their daughters. Of course there were accusations bewteen business rivals, as well as cases of women deemed "outside the mainstream" including one older widowed woman who happened to inherit a buttload of land - more than most men in the village. Apparently she and her hubby never had kids. Of course there were other dynamics at play that spurred the Witch Trials on but this urban-rural divide played a huge role in it.
Sound familiar? I sure think it does. Change the date and a few words here and there and you've got the same problem. Right down to the accusations of evil-doing by the city dwellers.
On topic...
Political conversation was taboo at Thanksgiving dinner with my family and their friends. Members of my family do not see any merit in discussing a subject that can create waves. With my family it's probably for the best.
Over the summer I briefly touched on my support for JK being about my daughter's future. My sister's husband told me that was a bunch of bull...
Some people will never be convinced to change their political affiliations for any reason, including the future of the children in their families.
I live with my parents in a very Repug part of Los Angeles County, California, a county considered hardcore Democratic otherwise.
My thanksgiving was with my Repug family. Fortunately my mother did vote with the Dems - John Kerry, Barbara Boxer. So I had good stuff going on with her.
It was my father who crashed the party, however. He looked forward to Bush starting a nuclear war in Korea to unify the country and overthrow Communist regimes in "both" Koreas. What kind of nonsense is this? I didn't know South Korea was a Communist country.
Moreover, he described the Democratic Party as the party of lazy people. The party that keeps single moms with tons of children - all with different dads they will never know - well fed with $10,000/month welfare payments so that the mom can drive around in Cadillacs. This is called fraud, not welfare, and hardworking Democrats won't stand for it either.
I ended up boycotting the dinner.
Posted by: florida dem | November 29, 2004 11:38 AM
The land/power grab is one aspect of the Salem Witch Trials and the Burning Times/Inquisition in Europe.
What started as genuine fear of witchcraft quickly escalated in both Europe and America into a way for the government and the church to seize property. Sarah Good who was one of the first to be accused was a homeless woman.
McCarthyism is closest in comparison to the term witch-hunt.
I will add one more tragedy to this post.
My cat has disappeared, and I can only blame my Repug neighbors for killing or harming him. The reasons:
(1) My cat is neutered and will not venture far from my place.
(2) Most of the backyards he visits belongs to hardcore Repugs who still have their Bush-Cheney '04 signs out.
(3) I know the non-Repug neighbors well enough to know that they will never harm a cat.
(4) My cat recently came back with a severe wound on his back that could only have been inflicted by a human tool.
(5) I am the only one around with cats, and my car had a Kerry bumper sticker.
Such is the Republican "culture of life." The life of Democratic pets don't matter. Only unborn white children do. (Of course once they're born, they're disposable.)
Needless to say, as soon as I can afford the sky-high Southern California real estate prices, I am finding a place of my own, closer to Los Angeles.
skinny...
Yer Dad sounds like a real hoot, is he still mourning Strom Thurmond's passing?... lemme guess, he likes his white sheets with extra starch, no?
Kudos to you for rising above it, in spite of him. (if you don't mind me sayin' so)
"A man without problems is a man without relatives" - Charlie Chan
Posted by: Amy | November 29, 2004 04:10 AM
here are a few more:
evangelicals are "the radical religious right"--as opposed to the majority of Christians (30 million evangelicals, 60 million Roman Catholics, and 50 million mainstream moderate Christians in this country now)
right-wingers of the Rep. party are "the radical right" to differentiate them from the moderates.
it's not the war in Iraq, it's "Bush's War".
In the interest of keeping this site proactive and building on the lessons we've all learned over the past year, how can we begin to reframe such encounters such as those of skinnylawyer? Look at Lakoff's suggestions. What would you say or do in a situation in which someone manages to characterize an entire political party in rascist and other derogatory terms?
Think of this as a democracy cell ASSIGNMENT.
DiAnne/Florida_Dem:
I think you guys are completely correct on the Urban/Rural thing. I think it is one of those demographic facts that is just so obvious no one notices it or simply dismisses it as a given. However, it might be useful to look at some other things that "covary" with urbanism -- such as the much greater exposure to a variety of ideas, ethnic groups, cultures, dare I say (open) sexual orientations. Also, we tend to find concentrations of people with a wide variety of life and other educational experiences in the larger cosmopolitan centers.
Chuck in Baku
Posted by: Marc Trager | November 29, 2004 12:02 PM
No, he doesn't miss Strom too much. (1) He's Korean (my previous post should've made it evident). (2) Strom was an ex-Democrat.
That said, I do wish for a nuclear war in Korea. Why? So that people like my father, Reverend Moon, and other right-wing Koreans will learn a lesson - even though by then it will have been too late. This is also for those Hyundai and Kia owners who put W '04 stickers on their cars; they'll learn a lesson when the war cuts off the supplies of parts and service for their cars.
I lost my syllabus, karen!
Very good assignment... to strike at the very heart of the hyprocrisy.
I sense an all-nighter.
Karen/SkinnyLawyer:
On how we can get proactive on these sorts of things, in consideration of the Laskoff idea of framing as politics in action, well, I think we need to develop and support access to information. On the old Reagan "Welfare Queen" canards -- does anybody here really understand the federal budget or know how to access the actual figures? What do farm subsidies look like compared to transfer payments to the poor (as opposed to us middle-class types)? How about outlays to develop alternative energy strategies to achieve sustainable energy independence versus the cost of administratively occupying the Persian Gulf states for the foreseable future? Who in our country really are the welfare cheats and who are really paying the bill (see my above post to DiAnne/Florida_Dem).
Chuck in Baku
Hi, Karen!
It’s good to be home, though it was hard leaving Columbus and all the friends I made there. I returned to Columbus after D.C. to go to my first Buckeye game. Friends had found me a ticket, and I watched the game with a veteran “redcoat” (Buckeye usher) in front of the $ 3,000 box seats on the 30-yard line. With apologies to Ron Chusid, I rooted for the Buckeyes all the way as they defeated Michigan.
It’s good to be “home” at the demcellproject, too. Thanks to you and Dick and the crew for all you are doing.
A couple of brief observations from my time in Ohio:
1) Managing the Franklin County phone bank for a month, I met more than a thousand volunteers in the campaign – both locals and Travellers – and found that, for the vast majority (including me), this was our first involvement in a political campaign.
2) After the election results were in, almost every one of the volunteers I talked to shared the feeling that, despite their disappointment about the result, they felt more determined to stay involved and keep fighting.
John Kerry promised us hope, and he delivered. His campaign trained a large army of volunteers in the basics of political campaigning, and inspired them to continue the work they began in this campaign.
That’s why the work you are doing here is important. The value of the site is already evident from the usage, and I’m looking forward to its future growth and development.
Love & Peace, Bob
Great points Chuck,
A group of people can form a small "cell" to do that kind of research--we are looking into add-ons to this site to provide "study halls" and links to "libraries" so we can look up those answers and share them with the larger group for discussion.
Keep the responses coming...
http://www.progressive.org/jan05/ehren0105.html
FleeAmerica.com by Barbara Ehrenreich
Welcome to the website that matches you with a NEW country appropriate to your personal tastes and values! You wouldn't want to keep a spouse or a job that you've grown estranged from, and there's no reason to be stuck with a nationality that doesn't reflect the REAL you. After all, your nationality is one of the few things you can change WITHOUT SURGERY, simply by filling out the forms below, including your up-to-date passport and credit card numbers.
Many people write to ask: Am I betraying my country by leaving? The answer is NO, your country has already betrayed you. Maybe you grew up believing America meant bacon cheeseburgers, Martin Luther King, rock 'n' roll, and Saturday afternoon softball. But-as you've probably noticed-the operative images in the world today are Abu Ghraib, Condi Rice, and the flattening of Fallujah.
And when you first pledged your allegiance to "one nation under God," you probably didn't realize that God would be delegating much of the day-to-day managerial responsibility to James Dobson and Tom DeLay. It's America that's changed-not you!
The good news is that there are a lot more countries out there than the US media are generally aware of. France, for example, with its ample coastline and curiously creamy cuisine. China, with its fascinating blend of runaway capitalism and communist repression. Or if you're looking for something REALLY different: Ecuador, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, and Venezuela now all have democratically elected leftwing leaders. How exotic is that?
Note: Some of the alternative nations previously offered on this site are no longer available. A year and a half ago, shortly after Colin Powell announced that there would be free health care and education in Iraq, FleeAmerica.com heavily promoted that beautiful, ancient, multicultural site, and thousands of Americans applied for relocation to it. Since then, however, Iraq has experienced a steadily worsening shortage of viable physical structures-apartment buildings, hospitals, schools-and we have been forced to withdraw it from the list.
Also, we have taken the preemptive move of removing Norway from the list of alternative nations, despite the lovely fiords, smoked fish, and free higher education. As a small, oil-rich country, Norway runs too high a risk of being the neocons' next invasion site.
To help us match you to a country, please answer the following questions: The most surprising thing I learned during the recent Presidential election season was:
1. that most Ohioans and Floridians who voted for Bush were so ashamed of their choice that they lied in the exit polls
2. that John Kerry counterfeited his Vietnam war medals out of Teresa's melted-down jewelry
3. that so few of my red-state neighbors routinely sacrifice sheep and goats as required by the Old Testament
My primary reason for re-nationalizing is:
1. eagerness to marry someone of a similar sex
2. desire to escape all references to Sponge Bob
3. need to fill a prescription
4. concern that my children will watch a pornographic film on TV, like Saving Private Ryan
Language capabilities (check all that apply):
1. I can say "where are the restrooms?" and "I didn't vote for Bush" in two or more languages
2. I believe most people can understand English if you speak loudly enough
3. Pouilly fuissé is best served (a) on toast, (b) cold, (c) boiled with mustard
4. Prefer to abstain from communication until I have something nice to say
Tastes and values:
1. I was disgusted by the sight of Nicollette Sheridan's naked back in the NFL promotional video
2. I was sorry not to see Nicollette Sheridan's naked front in the recent NFL promotional video
3. I feel that this scandal, along with Janet Jackson's nipple, has received insufficient media coverage and that, if Scott had known about abortion, Laci would still be alive
4. The food at the Olive Garden is spicy enough for me, thank you
Governmental preferences: I enjoy (check all that apply):
1. leadership from within the reality-based community
2. voting on machines manufactured by a major contributor to the Republican Party (Diebold, for example) after waiting 4 hours in the rain
3. scientific medical care as a supplement to prayer
4. rule of law, any law
GREAT! You're halfway there! We'll e-mail you your country match tomorrow.
Of course, some of your friends and family may choose to remain behind. There are people who take a somewhat inflexible view of "patriotism," just as there are people who never give up on their first, childish, seventh-grade object of infatuation. Perversely, these diehards think it's their RESPONSIBILITY to remain in their country of origin just as it becomes an international source of terror and a mockery of democratic governance. Whether out of masochism or misdirected altruism, they feel OBLIGED to stay and straighten things out.
To them we say: Can't you take a hint? Would you loiter at a party where gross drunken acts are being performed and, on top of that, people are dissing you everywhere you turn?
We also say to them: Bravo and hasta la vista! We'll be back when you've got America, as we knew it, up and running again.
Re. Repugs
We were heading up to Western WA University & had to drive through some less blue places. I had my usual 9 Kerry/Edwards stickers on my bug. A guy passed me in a R wing decked-out truck, glared at me & made the deaf sign for the letter "L."
I was perplexed. "Liberal?" "Loser?"
Karen:
Thanks for the words of encouragement. The concept is a bit daunting, however. In the context of Lskoff, how can complex, fact-based, rational analysis compete with demogogery and fear? But we have to try. I found it interesting a few years back tha Laura Bush's favorite literary passage is the "Grand Inquisitor" allegory in Dostoevskii's "Brothers Karamazov." Actually quite fightening when you think about it. By the way, here is a link to an interesting muliple regression analysis of Florida voting I got off Alterman's blog:
http://ustogether.org/election04/dawshed/A_Model_for_Analyzing_Voting.pdf
Chuck in Baku
Karen:
This is Chuck in Baku again. Also, what i think is really needed at this point is grass-roots, old-fashioned precinct-by-precinct orgainization -- just like in the old Union days. However, before we can do that, we need a broad and coherent platform based on transparency, education and truth, as in: federal electoral reform, tax reform (simplicity, transparency and progressivity), trade reform (enforce environmental and labor side agreements -- seems like I've heard that before), universal broadband access, energy independence. These are all potentially non-partisan, or process and procedural, issues (except for the idea of the trade side agreements and the desireability of a progressive tax system). On the partisan side, we need federal underwriting for catastrophic health insurance and well-child health care. Don't know how to start! How do we get there from here? (And I don't mean just from Baku.)
Chuck in Baku
Dear All:
This will sound dumb, but I sure like this blog in the sense that a person actually has time to read posts before posting and can actually follow ideas over the course of days! And it is worth reading. Just like the Kerry Blog in the earlier (if not the early) days. Thanks, SC Kitty, for steering me here! We're winners, we're involved, and we are focused on 2006, then 2008, then 2010 and so on until (God willing) I'm a Grandpa (my daughter is five). And even then it's not over until our grandkids say it's over.
God Bless Everyone and Keep the Faith!
Chuck in Baku
That sounds perfect - Chuck in Baku
Chazman (Chuck),
First of all, do read the Welcome to the Democracy Cell Project thread--it was the first and is linked over there to the right of this message. In it Dick lays out some of the plan for this project.
While there are any number of issues that need addressing, we will be focusing on two: media reform and voting reform.
And we will be creating and building on the social networking that has already been going on via the blogs and forums and chats, to create cohorts of people who will in turn train others, who will in turn address the kind of mindless following-the-leader that led to the last election debacle.
In other words, as you will reacall--we will BE the media. And as such, our languaging and persuasive approaches must be honed.
I actually do a lot of persuasive teaching by telling stories, especially those that have the added value of being true.
I converted one older gentleman to vote for Kerry by telling the story of JK's men from the swiftboat telling us that "If John Kerry came to me today and asked me to go on a mission to Hell, I'd join." THat is a powerful statement, and one that veterans understand. It also contrasts with the awareness that GWB HAS no following and no one in their right mind would have followed him anywhere except to a bar!
We spent Thanksgiving at the ocean to heal, restore, and decompress. Instead, we found movie references to shop counter magnets imploring us to “become the change we want in the world.” Another push came from Mark Green, our NYS Kerry co-chair, giving a talk about the need for election and media reform. With the current religious, legislative and market tyrannies, a reverse FDR, and the very quality of democracy under assault, he describes our need for a Progressive Patriotism. A prolific writer, former public advocate and Nader raider, he will be running for New York Attorney General when Eliot Spitzer runs for Governor. That is a major piece of good news on the national stage for what we need changed. I will somehow help with that campaign.
With so much of what we need to do both local and national, should we have a clearing house here of national initiatives needing letter writers, support of any kind? I can lose patience when too much philosophy impedes on results. An impatient trait, I know, but those are my limitations. I'm a cut to the chase kind of girl and 2006 is none too soon.
Have I said thank you enough, Karen and Dick, et al, for our new home?
Karen/DiAnne:
I have faith that we will figure out how to make this work. Like I say, at the moment for me it's a bit difficult on dial-up from Baku, but I hope to be stateside Q1 2005 (I'm oil-field so maybe Houston, but may make a career change to IT in which case Bay Area or Seattle -- I grew up in Portland). Once we're back, I will get more directly involved. For now, I guess it's my moral support and occasional two-bits on the blog! And thanks very much for your hard work over these months and years. It really does allow us who cannot be in the process directly keep in touch with the issue.
All the Best
Chuck in Baku (GMT+4, NYC+9, Seattle+12)
PS: Sure would be nice to see Wild_Salmon on here too!
Chuck in Baku
I'm in Seattle, Wild Salmon is in OR.
She has been spotted at DailyKos.
Also saw reference there to Renee from Ohio - remember her?
We will eventually round up everyone & recruit more!
My husband just saw a van with a bumper sticker on it that said "Ferme La (& has picture of Bush)"
==============================
THE END IS NEAR
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"This global terrorism is everywhere..."
MADONNA on BBC Radio 2
From www.airamericaradio.com homepage:
Flying Under the Radar
One in-six returning soldiers from Iraq is suffering from post-traumatic stress. The numbers are expected to be higher among reservists than among career soldiers. The Wall Street Journal reports that many companies have started suing their own retired employees in order to cut their pension benefits using the legal argument that “lifetime” coverage really means “lifetime” of the labor contract. The Defense Department is outsourcing “torture flights” using Gulfstream jets to transport suspected terrorists from other countries or U.S. military bases to countries that practice torture. Molly Ivins has a few other factual beauties not getting much mention on your evening television news.
Chuck-
Glad you are now posting here now! Yay! Oh, I definitely agree that urbanites tend to be more exposed and therefore more accepting. I think alot of good relevant information - as well as similarities with today's red/blue problem - can be found in the Salem Town vs Salem Village story.
Kitty, my response to that "I don't want my tax dollars spent on abortion" crap, is to bring up all the tax money I spend on wars and weapons, against every teaching of Jesus and against all my own most fundamental principles. When we stop spending trillions on killing innocent civilians all over the world for purposes of greed, I'll start considering her point of view on abortion.
There are reds in blue areas and blues in red areas... urban and rural.
I cringe when I see anything that looks, or sounds, like "us vs them," no matter how it is framed. The danger of duality is losing sight of ourselves while we're pointing fingers at the "other."
Just saying.
Hi guys -
At risk of sounding like a tinfoil-hat wearing piece of squirrel bait, I have to ask you guys a question, and see what you think - I know you'll all be honest with me.
Is it conceivable that this whole "voting irregularities" issue might be a little more far reaching that it appears? You see, I have caught myself wondering on more than one occasion if this might be a small part of a large-scale plan by a group of corrupt right-wingers with an agenda to use illegal means to put Republicans in power indefinitely? I can't help but think it's possible that putting these Republican-owned vote counting machines which are easily manipulated (and often leave no paper trail) into the elections process was a premeditated plan to tip the scales of power in their favor irrecoverably. First, Shrub gets put in office under dubious circumstances in 2000. He fails miserably as a president, establishes himself as probably the most loathed President in history but "miraculously" "wins" re-election by an even bigger margin this time, when all signs pointed to that NOT being able to happen. In addition, the House and Senate are won by the Republicans too. Immediately, they start trying to undermine Democratic authority, by doing things like this:
"In scuttling major intelligence legislation that he, the president and most lawmakers supported, Speaker J. Dennis Hastert last week enunciated a policy in which Congress will pass bills only if most House Republicans back them, regardless of how many Democrats favor them."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15423-2004Nov26.html
Also, there appears to be quite a concerted effort on the part of these folks to control the media. Look how much of it is Republican owned! And look what happens when someone goes out on a limb and reports something that might be construed as unflattering to the current administration. For those of you who recall the media's roll in politics during the Watergate scandal and prior, it didn't matter if a leader was Dem or Rep - it was ALL over the news if they screwed up. Sure, there were biased reporters and news stations, but the media siezed upon any breath of scandal, and it did come out, somehow - They were all over Watergate, hence the rapid impeachment, shaming, and resignation of Nixon, a Republican who screwed up.
Shrub's administartion has done things that make Watergate look like a slumber party prank, and the news won't touch it.
So, in essence, control the media, via the proliferation of Republican owned stations and conglomerates, own and control the vote tabulating machines, seize the White House, seize the House, seize the Senate, and thus, seize absolute power.
Anyone else out there worried?
Posted by: ginny | November 29, 2004 12:03 PM
Actually, my list was of the people we should give names to - I didn't mean those to be the names!! LOL
I'm going to work on giving those hate mongers names that describe who they really are.
Eh - that would be the media's "ROLE" in politics - not "roll."
I must be hungry.
Hey, KIK, you know I'm worried!
I suggest we all read the the new american century website and get our hands on any speech that Grover Norquist has made. Also, Rove in Newsweek. YOu bet you booty they're into complete domination and control That's exactly wht this is all about.
World Domination. And they make no bones about it.
KIK, I have no doubt they plan on permanent power, as with lessened educational opportunities feeding the military or class and work restructuring. It's sinister and practical from their points of view, and planned for decades.
Hello, KJ, I know the us vs them color states is up there with my religion is better than your religion, or my country club is better than your country club. How about our country as their club, and definitely divisive?
Amy, one scary piece by Fineman in Newsweek on Rove, as if the world will sit idly by and be dominated.
Marjorie G., good to see you! Having lived in both rural and urban, red and blue, I know first-hand that many rural folks are are blue as they come, and vice versa. Sigh. Language, it's a pain. But it's ours.
Good news re: your Kerry co-chair. Somehow I knew you'd stay in the thick of things.
And we go... onward!
SkinnyLawyer -
I am so sorry to hear about your cat. Nothing in the world makes me angrier than cruelty to animals. NOTHING. I may be a lib, but I'd glady support the death penalty for those who mistreat animals.
Seriously.
I keep my cats indoors because there are too many sickos out there - plus, the possibility of them being hit by cars worries me. My neighborhood is pretty safe and quiet, but still - too many bad things can happen.
I hope your cat comes back - and and if anyone harmed him, cruel and unusual punishment would be too kind for the piece of waste responsible.
Keep us posted.
Ok, thanks guys - I thought maybe I was going too far in my speculation, but I guess others have thought it too.
What are we to do, then?
COMPILATION OF DATA ON THE 2004 ELECTION
Articles, maps, graphs and charts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2004
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New Thread
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I returned from exactly the Thanksgiving meal discussion at lunch to find this thread!
I think one reason it is SO difficult to get away from the us-versus-them talk is that the differences are so fundamental that it seems impossible to overcome. I know that's melodramatic, but it does feel that way most of the time. Also, when you have a pretend president who says things like "what do expect from a Senator from Massachusetts?", and people think that's OK, it's hard not to see the other side as "them".
Anyway - I discovered on Thanksgiving that I am still too raw to even discuss fringe topics with Bushies, like John Stewart vs. Tucker Carlson, without losing my mind. Oh well - time heals all wounds, I suppose.
And yes, I have wondered about a deeper conspiracy than Ohio and Florida. What about all those states that went red, that were supposed to go red, so no one even looks at the possibility of fraud? We've GOTTA reform the election system so we don't have to be suspicious of every result.
Did anyone find it outrageous that with the situation in Ukraine, Bush had the you-know-whats to tell them not to certify the election? Why would anyone listen to him after our election? I had to guffaw at that.
This is a LTE that appears in today's Rocky Mountain News-how do we even begin to have a dialouge with these people??!!
Bush haters' hearts clouded by darkness
Americans spoke loud and clear. For all those crybabies out there: Get over it. President Bush did not nor is he using power based on fear - where do those opposed to him even come up with that? Democrats, with their constant lies, have divided this country. The responsible, real, true and intelligent Americans saw through this.
Bush will fulfill his duties and honor Americans, he has and will continue to be a gentleman and it's time for Democrats to stop whining, to stop the berating, stop the accusations, the back-stabbing, the finger-pointing. It's time for Democrats to start the healing because they opened the wounds, they drew first blood.
Bush won fair and square. Americans voted and we want him to lead us.
So, liberals, don't feel sorry for us; we got our miracle. Instead feel sorry for yourselves because you have so much hatred and darkness in your souls that it has clouded your hearts.
Vickie Hebel
Westminster
Hope we get to visit again, KJ, sincerely.
I think the Rockridge Institute one of the most helpful sites in a long time to get me thinking differently, better and moving dialogue forward.
Marjorie G., without too much hyperbole, I think the Rockridge site, and Lakoff's books, just might save my sanity. ;-)
It is soooo difficult to stretch my thinking beyond "us vs them." Especially while facing "them" every day. My other, my shadow, right in front of my face, waiting to be embraced. Again, without too much hyperbole, I figure it's one of the tasks of my lifetime. Time will tell...
I spent the weekend inside with my husband and the cat. We ordered pizza, moved bookcases and read. It was bliss.
Posted by: nancyjane | November 29, 2004 03:48 PM
Look who's speaking. YOU are the ones who killed my innocent cat. YOU are the ones who killed innocent civilians and military personnel through this war of lies.
KJ
I read that St. Louis went 81% Kerry!
NancyJane
Thanks for posting the "window into the mind.."
- it's pathetic & embarrassing.
I'm so glad the cities & college towns of American are civilized, educated & thoughtful.
Andree
I don't think your email's working.
Nancyjane, without a supposed neutral party, like the press used to be, nothing critical about Bush would be believed when he is perceived as savior or a miracle. When I lived in Denver in the 80's, I went to a tent revival of James Dobson at the sports stadium, invited by my walking buddy. A Christian psychologist, but clearly embarrassed when he mentioned eight religions to cheers, Dobson never said Judaism. At the time, she thought he was benign and for the "family." That was the beginning, and it was scary, even then.
DiAnne, there are even little rural outposts with schools that house pre-K through high school, around 100 students, who are civilized, educated & thoughtful. I know I sound like a broken record, but seriously, it's one voter, one mind at a time. Urban, rural, red or blue.
Like John Kerry said at the Convention, he wanted to see this country as Red, White and Blue! I'd throw in a few more colors, myself! ;-)
KJ If they didn't vote for Kerry, it isn't good enough for me. I'm mad at them & it's going to be awhile before I can talk to anyone who I know voted for Bush. Maybe they can read something I've written or maybe we'll have an accidental dialogue - but if I know that someone knowingly voted for Bush after the pictures from Abu Graib were right on the covers of national newsmags & if they can do so after the 9-11 Commission Report came out BEFORE the election, if they can justify these 100,000 plus dead Iraqi civilians & who knows how many in Afghanistan - until they can explain to the parents of the dead soldiers & have it make sense - they have blood on their hands & I have not forgiven them for their ignorance & callousness.
Future of 9th Circuit under Review Fox News
Washington - For many conservatives, the words "9th Circuit" mean more than just a federal appeals court in California. The words embody everything they think is wrong with liberal activism, West Coast politics and the judges who tried to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Those same conservatives think their new clout following President Bush's re-election may help put some weight behind a movement to split up the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, leaving the 9th in California, creating a new 12th Circuit for neighboring Idaho, Arizona, Montana and Nevada; and a new 13th Circuit for Washington, Alaska and Oregon.
"Almost everything is going to be affected by the election," said Kay Daly, who heads the Coalition for a Fair Judiciary, a conservative group working to get Bush's judicial nominations through the Senate. She said conservatives will be pushing hard to split up the 9th Circuit.
"The 9th Circuit seems to wield an awful lot of power, and it is the most reversed court in the nation," she said. "There's some serious judicial activism going on there."
By a vote of 205 to 194, the House on Oct. 5 passed an amendment by Rep. Mike Simpson, R-Idaho, to the Bankruptcy Judgeship Act that would divide the 9th Circuit into three parts. The entire bankruptcy bill passed the House shortly afterward.
Republicans largely voted for the measure while Democrats opposed it. But two California Republicans, Reps. Christopher Cox and David Dreier, voted against the amendment.
Retired Judge Robert Bork, a former U.S. Solicitor General and federal appeals court justice, said the 9th Circuit "has always been a maverick court," but splitting it up is more complicated than it sounds.
"I don't know if it's such a hot idea to have a court confined to California," he told FOXNews.com. "You would still get a court full of activist judges, and a court that doesn't represent the whole of the state."
But the lawmakers who sponsored the legislation in both the House and Senate say the 9th Circuit is not only ideologically different from its own Western values, the court is overworked. They point to the judges' caseload and sluggish docket.
"It's the most overloaded circuit out there," said Dan Whiting, spokesman for Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, who introduced the Senate companion bill with Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev. "We certainly have concerns over how the court works, but at the same time there are other concerns with the overload, with its workloads, that far outweighs any other concern."
"[Ensign] is as aware as many people are that the court is completely overloaded," said Jack Finn, spokesman for the senator.
But not everyone believes that workload is the overriding concern for GOP lawmakers, and a lot more senators will be needed to get a ringing endorsement. Senate sources say it has a glimmer of a chance of being brought up in the Senate, but not much more than that, at least for now.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who opposes the measure, has put a hold on the Craig-Ensign bill, basically bottling it up in limbo, and has warned against attempts to slip it into larger bills.
"It would be inappropriate to undertake such a momentous transformation of our nation's judicial system with little opportunity for debate and consideration," Feinstein said in a letter to the Appropriations Committee Chairman, Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, on Nov. 15.
The chief judge of the 9th Circuit, Hon. Mary M. Schroeder of Arizona, and several of the court's judges have been vocally opposed to the effort. Schroeder was out of the country and could not be reached for comment, but has stated publicly that the measure would break up common interests among neighboring states.
Conservatives have not been shy about their dismay over what they consider to be the court's ideological slant. That dismay surfaced explosively in 2002, when the 9th Circuit declared the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional because it makes reference to God in one verse. The U.S. Supreme Court later overruled the court on technical grounds.
To conservatives, this was the culmination of years of "liberal" decisions on everything from environmental issues, to crime, drugs and sex.
"These contemptuous judgments tear at the moral fabric of our nation, disregard the will of the people and force a corrupt ideology upon our society," said Rep. Rick Renzi, R-Ariz., after the House passed an amendment that included language he introduced in April to split the court.
He said rural Arizonans were tired of the 9th Circuit ruling against their interests, and pointed to judgments concerning cattle grazing and preventing forest fires. "Based in San Francisco, the current 9th Circuit is out of touch with western values," Renzi said.
But not all Arizonans necessarily agree. The Arizona House delegation split its vote along party lines.
Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., said the ideological drive behind the proposals in both the House and Senate have made lawmakers uncomfortable. "It's obvious what is going on, the other side is very clear that this is what they are doing," Schiff told FOXNews.com.
He said he heads a caucus with Rep. Judy Biggert, R-Ill., to work, in part, on solutions to the worsening relationship between the courts and Congress. "This just makes it worse."
But Finn said Ensign is confident that the enough bipartisan support exists in the Senate to split up the court.
"We're confident that it will go somewhere, the question is not if, but when," Finn said. "It's a commonsense bill and he intends to pursue it."
The upshot - take power away - oppress gays
more comments re messed-up Republican values & beliefs - see next thread
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4643815,00.html
huge monthly death toll in Iraq.
This should be taken very seriously.
DiAnne, the point I was trying, and apparently failed to make, was that there are blue voters in red areas, and vice versa. There are Kerry voters in rural areas... people who have never lived in urban areas or college towns or been overseas. I've met them.
It won't serve my cause, at least, to label anyone in a public forum like this. I would hope that we take the lessons of this blog topic to heart and begin to frame our conversations less as "red v blue" and "urban v rural" in an attempt to find any common ground we can, no matter who they voted for.
Difficult task, yes. Without a doubt. But one way to begin is to not label entire groups of people by the places they live.
That's how I see it, anyway. Just one person's point of view.
That's how I see it, anyway. Just one person's point of view.
Posted by: kj | November 29, 2004 09:25 PM
**********************
KJ,
I agree - if you look at the breakdown of votes even in hard core red states like Kentucky, etc. - at least 40% of the population voted for Kerry.
IMHO - it is counterproductive to dismiss folks who voted for Bush as stupid and unreachable. It is also counterproductive to look at the red states as a monolithic voting block.
I dislike intensely many of the representatives of the right wing - Delay, Cheney, Rove come to mind - the list is long - but I'm not writing off over half the American population. I am convinced that we can change the dialogue in this country and enlighten. I'm a child of the 60's and believe in the power of consciousness raising.
There are all sorts of reasons why people voted for Bush - fear, ignorance, bigotry, laziness - and the reason for this site is to build understanding and educate.
I agree with KJ. I wish we would stop being pejorative here about those who do not agree with us. We need to try to understand and sharpen our powers of persuasion - not fall back on insults and sarcasm. I think we're better than that.
KJ
I realize that - I have seen all those maps.
I'm also looking at demographics. There is a big difference in an area that elects Kerry by over 80%.
The election just happened. I'll be working to convince people. I personally swung Republicans and have witnesses. But for now I'm personally pissed at people who voted for Bush, ok?
Not only pissed at those that voted for the idiot,but in Wa. state really po'd at those dems that crossed over and voted for Rossi rather than Gregoire for gov..that race has yet to be "decided". Rossi's the next Santorum and no one saw the "second" coming! I'm really concened about Maria Cantwell's chances come her 06'reelection senate bid!
Thinking back to Fla. I get upset as full knowing Jeb would deliver it for his bro,wondering "IF"(another one) the team had put more muscle in Missouri,Iowa and beyond the red at the top we could have overcome Fla. and with greator success????
DiAnne, I hear you.
DiAnne, as for the split of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and Arizona Republicans all voting for it...
Jim Kolbe must be served Saudi-style justice. He is gay, Catholic, AND Republican. WHAT kind of damn combination is that?!? If he truly believes in his party's dogma, he must repent for his sinful lifestyle or be beheaded immediately.
I really have issues with that faggot (sorry about the slur) because I used to live in his district in Arizona.
Log Cabin Faggots really bring out the anger in me. You don't see me use such slurs against gays (heck I'm lesbian myself) but when it comes to selling out our cause for short monetary gain... there is no excuse.
And I said faggots. Yes I did. Because in almost all cases, they are, or once were, men.