« Investigating the Vote: Where Are the Media? | Main | True Christian Values »
We Can All Be Open Source Historians:
Investigating the 2004 Election
Reading through Andrew's post below about the investigations into the possibility of fraud in this year's election, I came to see the investigations in a new context, which I am calling "open source history." As citizens on the net, we are now all empowered to be open source historians, dramatically changing the way that current history is researched and written by making the process of creating history much more transparent than it has ever been. One of the older cliches in the books is "History is written by the victors," a cliche that depended on restricted access to raw data and to methods of distributing alternative explanations. As open source historians, we can research and write history together, outside the control of the supposed victors.
Was there fraud in this fall's election? I do not know, but I do know that the mass media has been reluctant to even begin examining the evidence. But as Andrew describes, intrepid internet investigators have been on the case since Election Day, turning up problem after problem, and collecting testimony from voters.
I'm not one to pick up every conspiracy theory that comes along. And if you've been following the unfolding citizens' investigations, you know that there are plenty of conspiracy theories in circulation, along with various statistical analyses that purport to prove that fraud must have occurred.
Although no particular theory jumps out; there's more than enough evidence out there to feed conspiracy lovers for a long time, unless we get to the truth now. I really don't want this election to take on a conspiracy life of its own, like the JFK assassination (and by the way, did you see there's a new electronic game out with a $100,000 reward for the first gamester who duplicates Oswald's shot as described in the Warren Commission report?).
In following the work of the various investigators out there, I retain a healthy level of skepticism. But it would be wrong, as the New York Times ("Vote Fraud Theories, Spread By Blogs, Are Quickly Buried," November 12, 2004) and others have done, to dismiss this work as the product of a lunatic fringe. These independent citizen investigators are doing the work that needs to be done in terms of pushing public officials to put all the election documents out in public where we can all study them. In a sense, they're performing a kind of "open source" historical research for us; they're trying to make sense of a very complicated, highly politically charged set of events. As they lay their findings out, the rest of us have the opportunity, and the responsibility as citizens, to test their evidence and their theories, not to accept or reject what they have to say, but to make it better, to add more evidence, to expose and eliminate mistakes, always moving toward a better understanding of what actually happened on Election Day.
Open source software has thrived because exposing the source code to the scrutiny of millions has allowed the pooling of both criticism and creativity. By publishing on the net, open source historians are likewise exposing their data and conclusions to millions, who can criticize, validate, and extend the work in a way that no single historian could ever hope to do on her own. For recent events, open source historians can also advance a story quickly, before it has time to be frozen into "conventional wisdom."
If newspapers are "the first draft of history," (attributed to Phil Graham, the late publisher of the Washington Post, and also to Mark Twain), open source history-making puts the mainstream media on the defensive, since they are no longer the filters and the gatekeepers for raw data. But given the dismal performance of the media in recent years, particularly on the lead-up to the war in Iraq, I would not shed any tears over an open source eclipse of the media's once formidable stranglehold. And if open source history shames the traditional media into more accurate, timely, and honest reporting, so much the better for all of us.
OPEN SOURCE THIS!!!
WHERE THE HELL IS JOHN KERRY?!?!?
HE was "good enough" to be President, than he should be leading the charge.
WHERE THE HELL IS THE DNC?!?!?
Not a word, a peep...you could hear a pin drop.
Where are the American Leaders so outraged by the travesty of justice and democracy that they are fighting in Ohio, Florida, New Mexico, Nevada, North Carolina, Iowa, Oklahoma, California?!?!?!?!
Jesse Jackson, the Greens and Libertarians have been the only ones to step up...to RISE to the occasion.
Would Thomas Jefferson sit by and squader this precious time left to save our democracy? Or Abraham Lincoln? Or John F. Kennedy?
HELL NO!!!
Where are those who would LEAD?!?!
Did Bush really get 44% of the Hispanic vote?
Doubtful.
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20606/
These guys are on it .. from the European left .. knowing that the whole world is affected by this.
http://bellaciao.org/en/
Indy,
Good questions! It certainly feels as if we have been abandoned. I truly fear that the truth will be revealed only when it is too late to overturn the election. My husband says it would be the end of Bush no matter when it comes out..... But then what? Cheney? How far down the republican administration would we have to go before we reach someone who was not involved with the fraud?
Sorry about the satire - I need it.
Bush accidentally votes for Kerry:
http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=607
Friend sent this link for contacting Reps, DNC, Kerry camp etc. & she had also sent it out to about every reporter she could think of:
My view is we must investigate black box voting discrepancies surrounding this election.
Make your opinion count through http://www.thepen.us/ or take off your email the same place also.
We need an investigation into black box voting fraud in the 2004 election, and the 2000 election.
We need major reform on how our nation votes in any election. I think every vote should be mailed in.
No single person or political party should be allowed access to the computer that tallies all the votes.
If we don't eliminate the electoral system then it should be revised line CO, where if candidate X got 40% of the vote then they get 40% of the electoral votes from that state.
Try the link - I've never seen it. Flood them.
Nevada Judge appears to admit there was voter fraud at Presidential level:
http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=2626277
Salon .. Feds to investigate voting irregularities
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
By Larry Margasak
Nov. 29, 2004 | Washington --
Congress' investigative agency, responding to complaints from around the country, has begun to look into the Nov. 2 vote count, including the handling of provisional ballots and malfunctions of voting machines.
The presidential results won't change, but the studies could lead to changes.
Good stuff - website, radio show - way into the voter fraud thing
http://www.thomhartmann.com/show.shtml
"The presidential results won't change, but the studies could lead to changes."
meanwhile we have to suffer the wrath of bushco.
WRONG!!!
If the vote is illegitimate so is his Presidency and we replace him with the real winner!!!
No repeats of 2000!!!
One thing we can do is monitor them.
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site/pp.asp?c=klLWJcP7H&b=83210
Center for American Progress is a great progressive think tank.
This is the most secretive administration ever - "worse than Watergate" per John Dean.
We need to know what they're sneaking through Congress & into the courts.
Why does every article about investigating the vote fraud say the results won't change???? If the results indicate fraud or the results indicate a change, there damn well better be change!
Do we really know how powerful the government is?
Do We Really Care How Powerful the Government Is?
WE ARE AMERICANS DAMN IT!!!
We do things not because they are easy but because they are hard!!!
The GOVERNMENT of America is OF THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE!!!
Be ready to fight then. They are not going to give up easily. They do not follow the law & they don't care about free speech or freedom of the press.
Case in point:
Rep. John Hostettler (R-IN), addressing a special legislative briefing of the Christian Coalition last month in Washington, said he planned to introduce a bill that would "deny federal courts the right to hear cases challenging the Defense of Marriage Act, which bans same-sex marriage."
Unimpressed by America's system of checks and balances, Hostettler inveighed, "When the courts make unconstitutional decisions, we should not enforce them. Federal courts have no army or navy...At the end of the day, we're saying the court can't enforce its opinions." Rep. Robert Aderholdt (R-AL), recently advocated "court stripping as a means to protect state-sponsored Ten Commandment displays."
I think they're more powerful than we think.
I am not impressed.
We have 60 million...they are a minority...and most Neocons I have had the displeasure to meet are COWARDS!!!
I WILL FIGHT!
Now back to my original question...
WHERE ARE OUR LEADERS?!?!
WHERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD SET AN EXAMPLE OF RULE BY TYRANNY AND UTTER DISREGARD FOR OUR NATURAL RIGHTS AS A PEOPLE AND THE RIGHTS GRANTED TO US BY THE CONSTITUTION?!?!
WHERE ARE THE PATRIOTS?!?!
It is good to fight them - I think they are cowards too. They are already showing that they want instant payoff (the fundies) - they were used by the neocons. The neocons aren't so smart either - the go off on military adventures that they have planned in theory but can't put into practice because they know nothing about the history, culture or politics of the countries they invade or manipulate.
One thing they really want to take down is law & lawyers. They haven't done it yet but all I was saying is that they have no respect for the law 7 with to change it to their own ends (theocracy/world domination).
You also have to convince the other 59,999,999 to fight - some may, some may not.
Can you tell I am not amused?
From previous thread
We don't have a media in the sense of a investigative body that questions and truthfully reports the events as they transpire. We have a media which regurgitates "news" as they interpret it. We should stop waiting for the media to live up to its responsibility. We have to take the lead. Waiting for the corporate media to perform as our country's founders intended will lead to democracy's destruction.
Indy, I'm a leader and a patriot and I'm right here. The next thing I'm going to do after posting this is order the books by George Lakoff recommended on the blog below. I'm also going to order Howard Gardner's "Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds," James Carroll's "Crusade" and then I'm going to sit down and continue to read Karen Armstrong's "The Battle for God" re: the rise of fundamentalism in the three major religions. And then I'm going to go to bed because I need sleep to help me think clearly, day in and day out.
Other leaders and patriots I know are deep into their own research, reading, writing, researching.
We have work to do.
OnCall
We DO have Helen Thomas!
Q The Canadians are going to serve the President Canadian beef for dinner. Is he eating it? (Laughter.)
MR. McCLELLAN: I haven't seen -- no, I understand. I have not seen the menu for the social dinner. But the President looks forward to going there and looks forward to participating in the dinner with Prime Minister Martin. Again, I haven't seen the menu, so I couldn't confirm that that's accurateor not.
Helen, go ahead.
Q Why are we killing people in Iraq? There are many men, women and children being killed there. I mean, what is the reason we are there, killing people, continuing. It's outrageous.
"We need to know what they're sneaking through Congress & into the courts."
how about ---- the federal government would require that every child in America undergo psychological screening and receive recommended treatment, including drug therapies:
One of the nation's leading medical groups, the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons (AAPS), decried a move by the U.S. Senate to join with the House in funding a federal program AAPS says will lead to mandatory psychological testing of every child in America -- without the consent of parents. When the Senate considered an omnibus appropriations bill last week that included funding for grants to implement universal mental health screening for almost 60 million children, pregnant women, and adults through schools and pre-schools, it approved $20 million of the $44 million sought, Kathryn Serkes, public affairs counsel for AAPS, told NewsMax
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/22/215244.shtml
do i really believe this story from news max?
Indy
I know there are Democrats not on the internet who voted for Kerry who know nothing about this & might not believe it if they were told. When I was canvassing, I was surprised how many people in my neighborhood had never heard of MoveOn, for example.
SC Kitty
I have actually read about that in multiple sources. Unfortunately, I think there could be something to it. Think how the drug companies would profit!
for a little humor-- it's not porn--
flag waving, bible thumping babes are waiting for you...
www.liegirls.com
check out the "commercial"
DiAnne,
We share the same experience in that...many of my friends just do not believe how deeply the corruption goes in our government and as they say "I never saw that on the evening news"...
And I tell them, "My point exactly, that is why we must call for media reform..."
And I get the crickets chirping, deer in headlights looks or out and out laughter...it is disconcerning and disappointing.
But...many are as angry and fed up as we are and need to find their voice in words and action!
Vive la Revolution!!!
DiAnne,
Helen Thomas is a bright light in a dark abyss of misinformation. Why can't others follow her lead?
Indy,
Yes I agree - I was just being realistic about one of the "handicaps" we face - getting these people to wake up.
I also keep predicting that some who voted for Bush will have "buyer's remorse" - we got a glimpse of it on C-Span when pro-choice Bush voters were suddenly shocked at his positions on abortion.
Have to just say .. 'duh' .. it is infuriating sometimes.
Indy
I also take some pleasure in the fact that some in other countries aren't as "dense" - people often said during the election - "They can't vote anyway" & it used to bother me. Some of these people followed our election more closely than alot of people here & are even more aware of the fraud! It's because Bush's policies affect the whole world because we are a (imploding?) superpower.
Great KJ!
Then you will know how to calmly answer the police officers when we lead our march on Washington. =]
All D-Cells have to make their own flag!
DiAnne,
I posted this the other night...
It is and always has been about raising the peoples' conscience...to think beyond their daily lives...to find happiness and fulfillment within compassion...one of the hardest lessons in the Universe.
One cannot force people to think, only present the truth for contemplation...and have patience...for when people do think...they grow...and though growth hurts...they thrive in becoming better people.
Such is the difficulty of what we are attempting to achieve...and though we cannot enlighten all Americans, we can reach out to those who embrace change for the betterment of society, our government and the world...this is our solemn promise...our bond with each other, to our Nation and to all of humanity...
To try to accomplish, not the impossible, but the improbable...though together, there is nothing we cannot accomplish.
What ever happened to Peter Arnett?
I can't find him! I admire Greg Palast, Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore & Robert Fisk. & Paul Krugman, but he's an economist.
An Era of End-Timers and Neo-Cons
Whatever Happened to Conservatives?
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
".....The evening before Thanksgiving Rush Limbaugh was on C-Span TV explaining that these glorious developments would have been impossible if talk radio and the conservative movement had not combined to break the power of the liberal media.
In the Thanksgiving issue of National Review, editor Richard Lowry and former editor John O'Sullivan celebrate Bush's reelection triumph over "a hostile press corps." "Try as they might," crowed O'Sullivan, "they couldn't put Kerry over the top."
There was a time when I could rant about the "liberal media" with the best of them. But in recent years I have puzzled over the precise location of the "liberal media."
....." http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts11262004.html
No Surrender - Always Remember
http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/single/se25894.jpeg/
Indy,
I have heard that question asked on other blogs and I could not agree more. I think whoever wants to lead the Democratic Party, has to step up to the plate--NOW--and fight voter fraud and voter suppression head on.
I think JK needs to be a lot more visible if he wants to be a leader and if he doesn't want to lead, then somone needs to step up. We have a void in leadership while the leaders regroup, in the meantime, we are left with a party that is playing with us and leadership that is non-existent and the neocons able to steal whatever they want--including our DEMOCRACY, our right to CHOOSE, our Social Security, and our court system.
The Dem party is not going to survive if they do not get their act together and quick.
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here--are we too complacent??
Kiev, Ukraine - Facing a relentless tide of opposition protests, embattled President Leonid Kuchma said Monday that a new election might be the only way out of a spiraling crisis that threatens to split this former Soviet republic into a pro-Russian east and a pro-Western rest of Ukraine
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/113004B.shtml…
Latina,
The only democratic party I know of is the group of people who support democratic principles. Currently there is no real Democratic Party. Whomever emerges as the spokesperson with the message which best communicates democratic principles will become the leader of the Democratic Party. This will take months if not years to evolve.
What ever happened to Peter Arnett?
I can't find him! I admire Greg Palast, Keith Olbermann, Michael Moore & Robert Fisk. & Paul Krugman, but he's an economist.
Posted by: DiAnne | November 29, 2004 10:27 PM
LOL DiAnne,
You're still looking for Arnett? Maybe you're right - they've tucked him away in Guantanamo.
Are you depressed by the election? Are you tempted by Eddie Bauer's post-election special on stylish sackcloth and ashes? Are you feeling as powerless as a Democratic presidential candidate?
Remember the bad old days, when you thought that you only had power if the people you voted for won? Remember how frustrating it was to see those hopes dashed, election after election?
Do you want the poor to be fed, clothed, educated and housed? Do you want to ship something besides bombs and DDT abroad? Do you want a big, fat tax cut, but aren't a gazillionaire?
Boy, do I have good news for you! You're about to spend a lot of money on gifts, right? Including junk bought from companies that have subsidized the two major political parties. Including stuff for Bush-worshippers. Including stuff destined for next year's garage sales, or for the returns counter.
Don't Do It! With one simple change, you can A) launch your own foreign policy initiative, B) earn a big year-end tax credit (sending fewer of your dollars abroad in the form of explosives), C) frustrate fundie friends by funding a faith-based initiative like Habitat for Humanity, and D) support small businesses and progressive business owners.
Wanna start a revolution?
Every year we talk about how consumerist Xmas has become. And every year we bemoan paying more taxes, and hate what our government is doing in our names. Not this time!
A Simple Proposal
50+ million people voted against Bush on November 2nd. That's almost 20% of the population. If all of us voted against him again during the holiday consumer binge, we can drive our point home. Here are some suggestions.
1) If you feel that you must buy something, buy it from a small business, preferably someone you know (and who didn't vote for Bush). Make sure it's produced in a way you and the gift's recipient can feel good about. Small business development and economic sanctions, all in one tastefully- wrapped package! Well done! And don't feel badly about buying gifts if the purchase is in fact an act of affection and generosity rather than consumerist compulsion.
2) Otherwise, send, don't spend! Give money to a non-profit whose mission is not being supported by our government. Voila! Self-service foreign (or domestic) policy! Bush may not support AIDS relief in Africa, but you do! Suggest that your religious organization, company, or social group do the same.
3) By giving to a non-profit, you earn a tax credit.You don't qualify for a meaningful portion of Bush's tax cuts, so give one to yourself. Merry Christmas! Here's your self-generated tax cut!
4) Bonus benefit #1: by sending money, you're also making a donation to the environment by avoiding the need for something to be manufactured, packaged, shipped to the store, and shipped to the recipient. Not to mention the time spent sitting in your car looking for parking at the mall.
5) Bonus benefit #2: driving fundamentalists crazy. They believe that their Rolexes are a sign of God's favor. Show 'em God doesn't care for them that much, and tell them that they are amassing treasures in Heaven ("Damn!") because you just gave the money to Habitat for Humanity, a nice faith-based organization. Ask them to do the same with whatever they were going to spend on you.
6) Avoid a social faux pas: tell your friends and family where the money for their presents is going, and ask them to do the same with money they would be spending on you. I am including some suggested organizations below. Replace my suggestions with your own and send this e-mail to your usual gift recipients. You don't want to be in the awkward position of telling them what you've done after unwrapping the new cashmere coat they bought you. :-}
Aren't you feeling better already? Aren't you having fun? This is gonna be good!! And think of the time and angst you're going to save! Give up the idea that American foreign policy and domestic spending depends entirely on our government. Take some of that money back. Take some of that power back. Republicans are always telling us that our money belongs to us. Damn right!
Some Suggested Charities
34 Million Friends http://www.34millionfriends.org/ . The Bush regime has gutted funding for the UN Population Fund and women's health. Two women from California and New Mexico are giving individuals the chance to put back what Bush has cut.
Heifer International http://heifer.org/ . This group provides animals and trees and such to families and communities as a way to provide the seed stock for self-reliance.
Small Kindness http://www.smallkindness.org/ . A relief organization run by Yusuf Islam, the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens, who was prevented from entering the US with his daughter this year, thanks to the vigilance of the wankers at Homeland Security. His program has helped war victims in Iraq, Bosnia, Albania, and Kosova.
Habitat for Humanity http://www.habitat.org// . You know this group. This is a good one to whom to give if you would usually be giving something to a Christian, whether fundamentalist or not.
Sojourners http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=get_connected.donate . Another Christian organization. You may have seen Jim Wallis from Sojourners going toe-to-toe with Falwell on Tim Russert's show this weekend. They remember the part where Jesus said "Whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me."
You know others. Go wild. Be generous. Happy Holidays! (from John at Dean Coordinators)
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/contact/email.html
Try writing.
Hey Latina!
No time to chat but I hope to see you in the IRC soon!
Farewell you Guardians of Freedom
Good night you Patriots of Hope
May Peace deliver good Fortune
And Liberty guide all safely Home.
Good Night All... =]
Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here--are we too complacent??
Posted by: latina4justice | November 29, 2004 11:02 PM
**************************
I think perhaps we are too complacent. We expect someone else to fix it for us.
After all, this is a democracy...right. This is about We the People - not about a candidate. You know if there was a difference of 500 votes - not hundreds of thousands or millions - Kerry would have had a leg to stand on. Unless there is proof of fraud, there is nothing he can do that would be effective in getting the real issues addressed.
Don't you think if there were massive protests, the court system really did its job, the media was the least bit curious, etc., the valid questions about the 2004 election might be more prominent?
oncall,
I know you are right. We have a group of us with strong beliefs and no one leading the charge. I have joined my own grassroots groups here, but I feel it is not enough. I know we are waiting and I know it may not happen for a while, but I still wish it was different. There is so much do to before the O6 elections--and THEY are already prepping.
Yes, I do think protests could make a difference--also, in hindsight, Kerry should not have conceded--it would have forced the media to pay attention to these issues--and given us a cause to champion. I understand why he did it and I thought it was the right thing at the time, but now I am beginning to wonder.
If we do not address this head-on, we will NEVER win--we will always be behind and we will always be playing catch-up, no matter how great of a campaign we run.
I also think we owe it to the black community to ensure that their vote is no longer suppressed--it has been since they were given the right to vote in 1870 (I think??) I think now is the time to ask--When will they have the right to vote?
Kerry campaign workers came to my door on two occasions asking for someone who doesn't
live here. They had this 'fictious' voter listed with my address. I called the Registrar of Voters and informed them of the fraudulent registration.
Darrel West
I canvassed before & our focus was "infrequent voters" or "high Democrat low turnout" areas such as where students lived. In many cases, the person listed at an address I was given was no longer there because they had moved. You can not assume it was a fictitious voter.
About John Kerry: Unless and until there is something upon which to comment, he is best off staying quiet.
As the Dems try and figure out direction, and as votes are recounted and as many try to figure out what exactly happened, it is best for JK to wait and see what emerges.
It is not his style to get into a fray--he is watching and noting everything that is happening.
Meanwhile, as Dick says in this entry, it is our job to search out all the data and apply our own understanding to it--and move it in the direction of a complete picture.
The more people we have looking at the same data and plotting the patterns, the more accurate the analysis will be.
I will be glad when we get past this time in history. We do not have enough information to know what Kerry should or shouldn't have done. All through the campaign the internet was full of speeches Kerry should have given, etc etc. Nothing was good enough. People wanted Carville. People wanted Clinton. People wanted such & such for vice president. People wanted Kerry to be a white knight in shining armor & save us all.
Never mind that even without the fraud he got more votes than Reagan did in a landslife. Our party needs help. I will drop off the face of the earth before I will criticize a dedicated Democrat such as Kerry rather than focus on Bush.
darrel west
for future reference, it's spelled "fictitious"
DiAnne
No college student ever lived here. I bought the place 15 years ago from a widow who was the original owner. Since I am the sole owner and not a registered voter, there should be no one listed at my address as a registered voter.
Darrel West
Maybe someone really did mess up.
You were probably right reporting it - you never know. We've lived here since 1987 and occasionally get phone calls from people insisting they have the right number.
I was just explaining how where I canvassed there was actually a logical reason - outdated lists & transient population.
Posted by: karen | November 29, 2004 11:28 PM
You mean like I have been doing since the election and everyone thought (thinks) that I am nuts for collecting and distributing...you mean THOSE stories?
=]
Look - the system is rotten at every level.
Republicans are trying to turn the 9th judicial district into 3 districts and now this:
Show Support for Chris Gregoire
as the Counting Continues
Count Every Vote Candle Light Vigil
WHEN: Tuesday, November 30th, 6:30PM
WHERE: Bellevue Double Tree
Tomorrow night Dino Rossi is holding a victory party, even though thousands of votes across the state have not yet been counted.
Join us outside the hotel to remind the people inside that every vote counts.
re Ohio
"We need to investigate, coordinate, litigate, recount and recuse," said Jesse Jackson, referring to the recount and other efforts and lawsuits challenging the legitimacy of the Ohio vote.
Jackson's recusal reference indicated his support for Cobb and Badnarik's demand that Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, a co-chair of the Bush
campaign, recuse himself from the vote-counting
process.
Jackson joins Ohio Congressman and former presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich and a growing list of individuals and organizations calling for a recount.
1 We'll be mobilizing thousands of volunteers
in December to observe the recount. Please join us by completing our volunteer form at http://www.votecobb.org
Green Party's Cobb/LaMarche campaign has already raised $250,000 toward the costs of the recount. $113,600 has gone out the door already to pay the State of Ohio's recount filing fee. We estimate
that the recount will cost an additional $88,000 for training and staffing costs(approximately $1000 needed in each of the 88 Ohio counties).
12/01 Date by which most Ohio counties will
have certified their initial vote totals.
12/04 Citizen electoral reform groups organize
a rally to "Investigate all 88."
12/06 Date that Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth
Blackwell currently (as of 11/25) says he
will finally certify the vote. Then, as detailed
in Ohio Election law procedures, Cobb and Badnarik will formally request a recount and Secretary Blackwell will notify other candidates of their right to have observers at the recount. Under law, other candidates must have 5 days of notice before the recount can start.
12/07 The "safe harbor" date by which presidential
electors in all 50 states must be conclusively determined.
12/11 Earliest possible start date for the Ohio recount, based on recent judicial ruling and Blackwell's current timeline for certification of the state vote.
12/13 Date by which, pursuant to Constitutional
mandates, Electoral College electors must meet to cast their votes. This applies to Ohio and all other states.
DiAnne
What's the story on the gov race in WA? I read they completed a recount with the pug leading by 42 votes & that there automatically would be a hand-recount. You're saying that all the votes weren't counted yet. (Why am I not suprised?) What's the deal?
Will we continue to have more deaths in Iraq each month? April had 135; there is one day left in Nov and we are at 128. Do we count the 7 killed in the downing of a Black Hawk helicopter in TX?
Month US Deaths
11-2004 128
10-2004 63
9-2004 80
8-2004 66
7-2004 54
6-2004 42
5-2004 80
4-2004 135
3-2004 52
Aimzzz
The first time Rossi led by 19 votes, so we recounted electronically & he led by 42, leaving it still technically a "tie" since our population is like 3 million. So now he wants Gregoire to just concede & we Dems want a hand recount but we can't afford it. We want to at least recount some key precincts or counties. He figures he's just "won" but 42 votes?!!
The hand recount has to be requested and paid for by the "losing" party - it costs $750,000 & the Dems have to pay. I don't think they have enough money.
Posted above by oncall:
"We should stop waiting for the media to live up to its responsibility. We have to take the lead. Waiting for the corporate media to perform as our country's founders intended will lead to democracy's destruction."
Bears repeating, over and over and over.....
The recount votes they are referring to are probably some of the hand votes. Our Secretary of state (a Pug) hasn't been helpful at all - he's on "their" side. He's the same guy who through out our Nader suit even though Nader used a bunch of street petitions added together to count as a "nominating convention," obviously illegal. We had a good case & this dude just laughed us off.
re: DiAnne | November 30, 2004 12:14 AM
So, according to the scheduled dates, it's not possible to change the election if JK won the recount because the slate electors is locked in on Dec. 7? Any further hope is gone because by certifying on the 6th, Blackwell has set up a timetable making it impossible impossible to change the results...
Ironic- Dec 7 is Pearl Harbor Day. Democracy bombed out of existence
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1129-26.htm
How To Take Back A Stolen Election
by Thom Hartmann
"Never again!" says the slogan in an email I received from an activist friend. "Never again will we allow a stolen election in the USA!"
But how are we going to stop it?
The major American political parties have an answer - it's already working for them in the Ukraine - but it's very much a sword that can cut two ways.
Interestingly, it was first used in the US.
Sorry about that last post- I'm in a foul mood
Aimzzz...
Not if the case in Nevada sets a precident tomorrow. They are attempting to delay the Electoral College Vote:
http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=2626277
Something as important as vote fraud never should be dismissed as moot, whether there's any chance of changing election results or not- it must be investigated without rewarding the frauding SOBs. (Funny you popped in- I was wishing I could talk to you for a minute)
Are there further options besides NV?
Get the bigger picture...
I believe the thought is to get a precident for delaying the Electoral Vote in one state,NV, the discrepancies between exit polls and the vote count as in NH (recounted to prove Bush did not receive the 5-15% above the exit polls) and with these two cases call for recounts in several states where the Neocons "cooked the books" so to speak...hopefully proving the fraud and overturning the election. I am not a lawyer but that is a logical assumption of strategy.
I hope to hell that John Kerry is busy drafting a bill to present to the senate demanding health care for all American children. That's what he said he was doing, that's what he thinks is important right now, and that's what I think too. John Kerry is a senator, not a movie star. He has no excuse to go before the press over and over. He's not a candidate, not the president, not even a primary candidate anymore. He's a hard working senator and that's what he's doing.
Enough yacking on the internet. Let's get busy and organize our cells.
Enough yacking on the internet. Let's get busy and organize our cells.
Posted by: Amy | November 30, 2004 01:03 AM
Amy...if Kerry sees this fraud, disenfranchisement, intimidation, manipulation and "glitches" in the voting process and does nothing then he never deserved to be President, nor should he much longer be a US Senator.
IMHO
Where are our LEADERS?
ACTION!
Enough litigation! Enough Excuses! Enough planning for the future!
The time for ACTION IS NOW!!!
And it must be by OUR elected leaders who were chosen to represent the PEOPLE!
I am sick of hearing of character, dignity and honor...there is a time for plesantries, political games and chivalry and there is a time to call the bastards out and kick the crap out of them and that time is NOW!!!
IMHO...as it is now three weeks after the election.
"Our party needs help. I will drop off the face of the earth before I will criticize a dedicated Democrat such as Kerry rather than focus on Bush."
Amen, DiAnne, Amen.
Screw the parties...
Do you not understand there will be NO 2006 vote unless this clusterf**k is addressed NOW?
South Carolina is already ordering more evoting machines with NO PAPER TRAIL.
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/10274070.htm
The scanners are being phased out (at least they have a paper ballot that can be examined)
These bastards are NOT Democrats, Republicans, Independents or resemble any American political ideology they are FASCISTS!!!
So I would suggest you worry less about being "Democrats" and more about being AMERICANS and get after every elected leader you can think of to address this NOW!!!
This is an AMERICAN issue!!!
We are all very angry, but the press didn't want Bush overturned, even when there was more legal opportunity. With the stated 3+ million down, we don't have PR on our side.
Mostly, the public isn't even mildly aware of the stakes of the election, thank you media. They don't want change enough yet. How would we justify the appearance of a coup to unseat a president the press keeps telling us is likable with our (screamingly untrue) aloof one.
Unfortunately, we had to win cleaner.
Posted by: Marjorie G | November 30, 2004 01:26 AM
Win Cleaner?
Hmmm...funny how the vote switched after 10:00 pm CST from Kerry to Bush.
Even if 70 million voted for Kerry, I guarantee you would have seen 73 million voted for Bush.
Did you not see this prior post? The same was true of machines in Florida and who knows what other states.
Voting Machines Count Backwards in Okla.
by Bob Nichols Saturday, Nov 27 2004, 3:13am
bobnichols@cox.net
national / elections & legislation / news report
57 Rural Counties Affected - Vote Fraud Suspected
Rural Oklahoma Voting machines know how to count backwards.
http://okimc.org/newswire.php?story_id=344
The thing about computers is...they do not just "make up things" as they go, they are programmed by humans to perform functions.
4 million Evangelicals could have voted for Kerry and he still would not have had as many votes as Bush.
No offense but...Get Real.
4 million Evangelicals could have voted for Kerry and he still would not have had as many votes as Bush.
No offense but...Get Real.
Posted by: Indy | November 30, 2004 01:36 AM
-----------------------------------------------------
Indy, have you seen the comments that accompany the link you are posting? It seems that the tabulated columns in the Tulsa World newspaper are not referring to the presidential election, but to a different event. Please correct me if I am wrong.
see this link regarding Tulsa World article.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x82661#83505
I’ve been reading a book about the Revolutionary War. One thing that strikes me repeatedly when reading history is how little in our current political situation is new. Certain strands go out of sight & then reappear like peculiar colors of thread in a braid of yarn. Here’s one:
[After the Revolution, the new Americans, free from monarchy & aristocracy, enthusiastically embraced the equality they had won.]
“Some fervent equality-minded citizens attacked distinctions of all kinds, including belonging to private social clubs & wearing imported finery. Gentlemen in some areas found that the traditional marks of social authority—breeding, education, good manners—were becoming liabilities for political leadership…“
snip
“This growing egalitarianism did not mean that wealth was distributed more evenly in post-Revolutionary America. On the contrary: Wealth was far more unequally distributed after the Revolution than it had been before. Nevertheless, Americans felt more equal, and that was what mattered.”
In: The American Revolution, a History. 2003. Gordon S. Wood. Modern Library, Random House. pp. 120-121.
_____
Bullet points:
• Even immediately after the Revolution, politicians twisted a person’s education into a mark of elitism, to make the person ‘not like us.’
• Those in power already used American ideals & rhetoric to mask the way they controlled the distribution of wealth.
Indy, love you dearly, and yes, the fix was in. I think suppression was more the problem.
By clean, I meant appearance of clean. I am afraid we will never know how much, if any, was truly hacked. If we never held federal clout, I wonder why local Dems didn't attend better to whatever local controls they had to numbers of machines, paper trails, as FL at least tried.
I say this as a decades-long Kerry fan truly grieving.
Note on 1st bullet point above: Granted fewer people were educated at that time, but education was seen as the key to preventing or over-throwing tyrany. Also valued for religious purposes.. not that logical consistency is required...
Indy, before I try sleep, don't think I don't share your anger and fear. There is legislative, market and religious tyranny everywhere from this crowd, and we haven't begun to hit bottom. I am just trying to figure out what I can do next with a public unaware that the very quality of our democracy is at risk. They give up life and liberty for Iraq and the Patriot Act, yet won't go across the street to vote.
I'm trying to say education was considered valuable & desirable except for certain politicians-- like now
Basically, one reason pug lies work is because many of the have deeeep roots
Been lurking here for a day or two,too busy to post as studying for re-certifications,but I must tell you how happy to have this reconnection with friends. It's been one hellacious month as we can all attest to! Something really encouraging happened here on the peninsula last Saturday. We had a black box parade from our Haller fountain in town all the way to the dock. E1 dressed up in black,carrying our made up cardboard black box voting apparatus tied with string,then set the boxes asail in the sound to symbolize not only our frustrations about the election,but organized about how we want to move on. It was great fun,we shed some tears and made a comittment to change the face and direction of the party. Some of us remain steadfast diehards and are holding out hope for Ohio,but know that's a longshot.... not willing to give up just yet. We are devastated by the assault on Fallujah,how the reps are using their power on the disadvantaged, ie decreasing pell grants,less kids insured and all this in less than a month! Scariest thing is no checks and balances! Every of age kid in this town voted for JK and they are truly hurt and in great pain as counted on his service program to help with college. These are bright enthusiastic students,looking for a hopeful tomorrow and believe me they are worth the fight to keep going. I was outraged at Thomas Keane head of the 911 comission saying on Sunday:"we will be attacked again,it's just a matter of time." With these "happenings" we're organizing,writing,calling..you name it we're doing it! So many people here were not Kerry supporters,but in the course of the campaign grew to love him and what he stood for,but po'd that he didn't fight back,and are holding out in the hope of all hope that Ohio will deliver in the end ! The "thinking" here is brilliant strategy of the JK team and the reason JK is quiet and under the radar screen of this election. We still go around with a sense of disbelief,a tremendous sense of loss,knowing four more years is beyond comprehension and full knowing our own election was rigged. These kids are so inspiring with there signs"MEET LOCALLY,ACT ACCORDINGLY". Sorry for the disconnected thought process, fatigue and weariness setting in,too much caffeine jitters and too damned old for all this book work and these late shifts!
Thanks for being here....we need each other,blessings to all!!
"What's the matter with Democrats"
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20592/
Organize, organize, organize
Marjorie G., I don't think we've begun to hit bottom either. We're so very far past my worse case scenarios now, all I can do is read, read, read to find ways to communicate with words that might, just might, have a chance to penetrate the soft red voters sensibilities.
Turning a tide requires, I think, work at the bottom. Sand shifting. I'm not sure, but I'm digging in anyway and doing what I can and I know eventually, I'll be doing more than I ever thought capable of. As will all of us.
One day, one voter, one mind at a time.
Patti! Happy to see you back! :-)
It's too early to be articulate.. but Indy, WE are our leaders. That's the point of the Democracy Cell Project, at least from my understanding.
Indy...been reading up from last nights post. I couldnt agree with you more. If our leaders do not take on this obvious 'coup' on our country using all means necessary to save this country NOW...there will likely not be any elections in 2k6.
I personally will trust in John Kerry to 'do the right thing'...I think John may be playing a game...a deadly serious game, quietly trying to make the appearance of 'taking this at face value'...while all along, doing the hard ground work to prove the obvious fraud in this election. Jesse Jacksons comment about his conversation with Kerry was interesting...he indicated that "Originally" John conceded because, "He conceded because he believed what he was told"...that would indicate to me that Johns 'eyes maybe opening' to the corruption.
Hopefully, we will see John 'Unconcede' soon, as the evidence mounts...I will wait and see, and like you, continue to document the fraud...but also like you, I believe the time is growing short to save the USA from becoming the FSA (Fasciest States of America)...if its not to late already.
Monkey To Man
by Elvis Costello
A long time ago, our point of view
Was broadcast by Mr. Bartholomew
Now the world is full of sorrow and pain
It’s time for us to speak up again
You’re slack and sorry
Such an arrogant brood
The only purpose you serve is to bring us our food
We sit here staring at your pomp and pout
Outside the bars we use for keeping you out
You’ve taken everything that you wanted
Broke it up and plundered it and hunted
Ever since we said it
You went and took the credit
It’s been headed this way since the world began
When a vicious creature took the jump from Monkey to Man
Every time that man struggles and fails
He makes up some kind of fairytales
After all of the misery that he has caused
He denies he’s descended from the dinosaurs
Points up to heaven with cathedral spires
All the time indulging in his base desires
Ever since we said it
He went and took the credit
It’s been headed this way since the world began
When a vicious creature took the jump from Monkey to Man
Big and useless as he has become
With his crying statues and his flying bomb
Goes ‘round acting like the chosen one
Excuse us if we treat him like our idiot cousin
He hangs up flowers and bells and rhymes
Hoping to hell that someone’s forgiven his crimes
Fills the air with his pride and his praise
He’s big disgrace to our beastly ways
In the fashionable nightclubs and finer precincts
Man uses words to dress up his vile instincts
Ever since we said it
He went and took the credit
It’s been headed this way since the world began
When a vicious creature took the jump from Monkey to Man
Just received from a German Army base:
Here’s the link for the article: http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayArticle.asp?col=§ion=opinion&xfile=data/opinion/2004/November/opinion_November44.xml
Rejecting the next Bill Gates
BY FAREED ZAKARIA
28 November 2004
AS CONDOLEEZZA Rice enters the State Department, she will face a number of pressing foreign policy problems that she cannot solve. This will not be for lack of effort or intelligence on her part. It’s just that many foreign policy crises involve the interests and activities of countries across the globe, and changing them takes time.
And even then, whether it’s Iran, North Korea or Darfur, there is no quick fix that Washington can impose. But there is a growing danger for the United States that needs urgent attention, that can be solved and that is almost entirely within Rice’s power to handle. It’s the foreign visa crisis. Left unattended, it is going to have deep and lasting effects on American security and competitiveness.
The facts are plain. US visa procedures have become far too cumbersome, and bureaucrats are turning down far more applications than ever before. One crucial result is the dramatic decline of foreign students in the United States — the first shift downward in 30 years. Three new reports document the magnitude of this fall. Undergraduate enrollment from China dropped 20 per cent this year; from India, 9 per cent; from Japan, 14 per cent. The declines are even worse in graduate schools: applications from China have dropped 45 per cent; from India, 28 per cent.
Some Americans might say, "Good riddance, it’s their loss." Actually the greater loss is ours. American universities benefit from having the best students from across the globe. But the single most deadly effect of this trend is the erosion of American capacity in science and technology. The US economy has powered ahead in large part because of the amazing productivity of America’s science and technology. Yet that research is now done largely by foreign students.
Thanks Indy for articulating the rage so many of us feel. People are fearful of speaking the way you so eloquently do. We are seeing the unthinkable happen- our elections are a tragedy, this war is an evil that will reverberate down through time, the president surrounded by flags and shooting the bird has become our new national symbol, and we are all grieving because our brother and sister Americans have shown themselves to be spiritually and morally bankrupt by their choices in this election. I do not believe that they were 'dumb'. I think that we are truly seeing the dark side of our affluence and culture of priviledge, the "I Me Mine" that hides behind the facade of 'faith'. We need to expose the greed that is fueling (no pun intended) this firestorm. The words of the Buddha, Jesus, etc etc are with us-let's use them to make our case. We have and have always had the moral high ground but have failed to make our voices heard. If they cannot understand us then we need to speak their language. Start with one person YOU-buy blue and spread the word. Then stop being "nice" which actually means 'foolishly agreeable' and begin to preach morality- that a crime is a crime even if it is wrapped in the flag. We can say what we want about Bob Schrumm but the Creed of Greed speech Kerry gave to the NAACP was awesome and begs repeating over and over.Thank you again Indy for your grasp of the issues and your courage to speak when others are silent. Ya feel like running for office.......?
Headed to work & can't post but here's something:
WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH DEMOCRATS?
Lakshmi Chaudhry, AlterNet
Author Thomas Frank tells us why the Democratic Party lost the 2004 elections and how it needs to rebuild --and address the needs of American working families.
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20592/
TAKE A CHAIR, ANY CHAIR
Joshua Holland, AlterNet
Should liberals pay attention to Washington squabbles over the next DNC chair, or instead focus on the real battles ahead?
http://www.alternet.org/election04/20607/
Good to see Patti!
Andre - I notice we posted same article - great minds think alike across oceans.
Does anybody know if there is any push for some type of recount going on in Florida? The only thing I am aware of is the BlackBox attempts at getting data in one county.
And may I suggest another related topic? The electoral college. I was sure that after 2000 and its obviously absurd results (even assuming that Florida did indeed go to Bush), there was going to be a movement to change this, but I was sorely diaappointed. I am foreign born, but have lived in the US for many years. I was never able to uderstand why the electoral college still exists. The only reason I can think of is a love of tradition, the reluctance to change historical institutions, especially strong in a country with a relative short history (no offense intended :-). And yes, the states with a small population will lose power, but federal system or not, it still is ONE country. Why should a vote in WY count so much more than a vote in CA or NY? It skews the whole process and is NOT democratic.
Still in the news (sort of):
Nearly a Month Later, Ohio Fight Goes On AP
COLUMBUS, Ohio (Nov. 30) -- Nearly a month after John Kerry conceded Ohio to President Bush, complaints and challenges about the balloting are mounting as activists including the Rev. Jesse Jackson demand closer scrutiny to ensure the votes are being counted on the up-and-up.
The Rev. Jesse Jackson says questions about the Ohio vote count need to be answered.
Jackson has been holding rallies in Ohio in recent days to draw attention to the vote, and another critic plans to ask the state Supreme Court this week to decide the validity of the election.
Ohio essentially decided the outcome of the presidential race, with Kerry giving up after unofficial results showed Bush with a 136,000-vote lead in the state.
Since then, there have been demands for a recount and complaints about uncounted punch-card votes, disqualified provisional ballots and a ballot-machine error that gave hundreds of extra votes to Bush.
Jackson said too many questions have been raised to let the vote stand without closer examination.
''We can live with winning and losing. We cannot live with fraud and stealing,'' Jackson said Sunday at Mount Hermon Baptist Church.
An attorney for a political advocacy group on Wednesday plans to file a ''contest of election.'' The request requires a single Supreme Court justice to either let the election stand, declare another winner or throw the whole thing out. The loser can appeal to the full seven-member court, which is dominated by Republicans 5-2.
Jackson said he agreed with the court filing planned by lawyer Cliff Arnebeck, who has represented the Boston-based Alliance for Democracy in other cases.
''The integrity of our election process is on trial,'' Jackson said Monday in Cincinnati.
Elections officials concede some mistakes were made but no more than most elections.
''There are no signs of widespread irregularities,'' said Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.
Blackwell, a Republican, has until Dec. 6 to certify the vote. The Green and Libertarian parties are raising money to pay for a recount that would be held once the results are certified.
Other critics have seized on an error in an electronic voting system that gave Bush 3,893 extra votes in a suburban Columbus precinct where only 638 people voted. The extra votes are part of the current unofficial tally, but they will not be included in the official count that will be certified by the secretary of state.
Some groups also have complained about thousands of punch-card ballots that were not counted because officials in the 68 counties that use them could not determine a vote for president. Votes for other offices on the cards were counted.
Jackson said Blackwell, who along with other statewide GOP leaders was a co-chairman of Bush's re-election campaign in Ohio, should step down from overseeing the election process.
''You can't be chairman of the Bush campaign and then be the chief umpire in the seventh game of the World Series,'' Jackson said.
Blackwell's office responded by saying the state has a ''bipartisan and transparent system that provides valuable checks and balances.''
''The problem seems to be that Rev. Jackson's candidate didn't win,'' LoParo said.
In Missouri, the secretary of state's office said Monday there were 8,183 provisional ballots cast Election Day, but fewer than half - 3,292 - were counted as valid. The provisional ballots cast represent less than one-half of one percentage point of votes.
The editor of Electionline.org, a nonpartisan clearinghouse on election reform, said Missouri's small number of provisional ballots is a sign its system is working. ''These were simply voters who were not registered rather than some mistake on the part of the people administering the election,'' editor Dan Seligson said.
Irina
Agree about the electoral system in that all states get an elector for each Senator but all states only have 2 Senators!
Even a proportional system might be better. Other problems are the jumping of the gun by the media in calling states for a candidate.
Well, well, well-somebody besides Keith O. seems to be getting it...........
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6595385/site/newsweek/
Four More Years to Finally Get It Right
In the new devices, a voter has no way of proving that his or her choice is reported in the final tally
Agree about the electoral system in that all states get an elector for each Senator but all states only have 2 Senators!
Posted by: DiAnne | November 30, 2004 09:41 AM
An elector for each senator?!? Not sure what you mean... I thought that the # of electors is correlated (but NOT proportional) to the population. Excuse the ignorance if I am wrong on this.
Judge to rule on part of challenge to Bush win
SCOTT SONNER
November 30, 2004
RENO - A judge intends to decide Tuesday whether to allow a legal challenge to move forward aimed at blocking Nevada's five electoral votes from being cast next month for President Bush.
Washoe County District Judge Peter Breen said Monday he's considering setting an evidentiary hearing to determine whether there are grounds to keep the votes from Bush - who carried Nevada by 21,500 votes - due to allegations of voter registration fraud and claims some voting machines malfunctioned.
Breen said he'd issue a written ruling Tuesday on a motion to dismiss the case based in part on arguments that it is a moot point given that Bush won nationally by a margin of 34 electoral votes, 286-252. He heard lawyers' arguments on the matter for about 2.5 hours Monday.
----------------------snip--------------------
http://www.nevadaappeal.com/article/20041130/NEVADA/111300037
Irina
Each state gets electoral votes based on - one for each Senator (so that's 2 for each state) plus one for each Congressional District (the latter is how DeLay got more for TX for redistricting).
Last year, I read Louis Menand's book THE METAPHYSICAL CLUB. It is an incredible account of 19th Century thinking in the United States and it offers much by way of understanding some of the struggles we are having around this election. In line with Dick's notion of Open Source history, I want to offer the following quote, from an essay about the book, as further food for thought:
"pragmatism 'is an account of the way people think - the way they come up with ideas, form beliefs, and reach decisions' (pg. 351). At its heart, pragmatism is a form of instrumental rationality.
Individuals form their beliefs, post hoc, around the decisions they make and the actions they take. First individuals do and then justify later. Truth, for pragmatists, is not some sort of eternal precept that individuals receive from on high. In fact, pragmatists claim that truth is only known through collective effort.
The key metaphor of the book is the astronomical measurement of a star's position in the universe. Due to the fact that humans' ability to measure inherently contains error, it takes multiple (even hundreds of measures) to produce a consistent and efficient estimate of the star's true position. The true position is ascertained using the law of errors. Astronomers assume that the measurements group around a mean in a predictable fashion. For those familiar with the statistical central limit theorem, we know that measurements usually produce a normal curve. The center of the distribution is the true score.
Similarly, people's ideas and judgements can be thought to fall around some true precept in a predictable, yet erroneous way. Truth can never be produced individually, since each individual fails to conceive of it in some fundamental way. Truth is only achieved collectively, as generations of scholars all throw their dart somewhere near the center of the target. The practical consequence of pragmatist thought was tolerance. Individuals should feel compelled toward humility, recognizing that their own experience falls short in some way, and tolerance, recognizing that other cultures and individuals all have something to say of worth. Everyone is equally erroneous, but for the most part, are somewhere in the ballpark of truth."
http://www.dealtime.com/xMPR-~PD-641194431361~PT-xMPR~RI-93870984836
It seems to me that many of us here are astronomers, measuring the location of a star--in this case, the truth about what happened in this election. Some are focusing on Nov. 2, some on the weeks prior, some on the weeks following, some on 2000, some on the 2002-2004 cycle, etc. Each of us takes our measure of the location differently. Only by pooling and discussing--unpacking all the data, can we be tolerant of each other and of the ultimate truth.
That truth may or may not be what any one of us wants it to be, but we have a responsibility to seek it nonetheless.
Posted by: DiAnne | November 30, 2004 11:16 AM
Thanks, DiAnne. Now I realize that once upon a time I knew that, but then somehow just the summary stayed in mind, namely that it is correlated to the population (through the one elector per district rule).
I've been avoiding Kerry blogs for several weeks after being bashed to crap for saying that people at other blogs are saying what Indy is saying in this thread.
I.e., I didn't even say it, but only indicated that others were saying it. I got beaten up for it too.
Almost no one defends Kerry on other blogs. Yes, perhaps no one here cares about that. Except those are Kerry voters, who are now angry and disillusioned.
"Hopefully he will say something soon" seems rather weak since deadlines have already passed for recounts in Florida and only the "glibs" have preserved any options for recounts in places like NM and NV. And Ohio for that matter - Kerry would have to ask for a recount the moment the vote is certified tomorrow (not the 6th - Tomorrow, the 1st). He could have gotten an early recount if he'd been part of the glib lawsuit, which was thrown out because they had no chance of winning anyway. HE does have a chance.
The campaign has fought mightily to distance itself from any part of this, going so far as to call Bev Harris a "troublemaker". Going so far as to have Jesse Jackson back off from his comments about Kerry's involvement.
It's not time for fear but for being bold. Our democracy is in trouble. I agreed with the idea of laying low AT FIRST to avoid looking like a sore loser. But this is not about him - it's about election abuses that should not be tolerated.
And he is the only one with standing to do anything about it.
Go ahead, bash away. I'm not afraid to say it anymore, not afraid of being rejected here, when I am the voice of moderation everywhere else (other blogs are replete with threads with titles such as "F*** Kerry, he's abandoned us", and even people who were staying positive a week or so ago are disillusioned. Ignore them and villify them if you wish, but they are the voice of a good many voters that dems need to get elected. They will not be voting for Kerry again. And I think that's a tragedy, for he'd be one of the best presidents we've ever had, but only if he's willing to fight for it.
If he does not fight for it, for us, for the votes, for a clean election, even if he loses now, he will not be given another chance. The anger is palpable. He needs to know.
Delphine
The anger is palpable on the internet. There are plenty of moderate Democrats who aren't even aware of all this & might not even believe it. It took all of those people to come this close to beating Bush. Not to minimize the internet, but people certainly do maximize it too.
If he does not fight for it, for us, for the votes, for a clean election, even if he loses now, he will not be given another chance. The anger is palpable. He needs to know.
Posted by: delphine | November 30, 2004 03:58
Delphine I totally agree with everything you are saying, because they are my feelings exactly. I hope with everything in me that Jk is working behind the scenes or I do believe that he will never be given the chance to run again for the presidency.These are my feeling as someone totally involved in the election of JK to the White House from the world community
Posted by: rossiann | November 30, 2004 04:55 PM
Kangaroo Brisbane Australia