Your Papers, Please

The UK is also considering an Identity card.
Even if it is used innocuously, they will have had alot of public debate & Parliamentary discussion, with the Queen even weighing in on it.

Our provision was put out in the dead of night.

______

Just received:

The following letter, issued by Rep. John Conyers, Jr. (D-Mich), calls on the five major television networks and the Associated Press to release the raw exit poll data from the 2004 presidential election...
http://rawstory.rawprint.com/1204/conyers_exit_polls_1221.php

Olbermann response to programmer’s affidavit fails to ask tough questions, note Feeney ties

This from Keith Olbermann, the lone ‘reporter’ on the voting irregularity beat. Olbermann gets responses from Feeney, who seems to laugh at Curtis’ claims and gently threaten NBC with legal action.

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=509

LOGAN, Ohio (AP) -- Election officials watched Monday as a technician repeated a repair he had made to a vote tallying computer, then announced they had found no evidence of any sort of tampering, despite a congressman's request for an FBI probe.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/21/ohio.vote.ap/index.html

I am doing what I was told to stop these from posting twice & they still are, so hope they get removed somehow.

Another Statistician Corroborates Exit Poll Study: Concludes Election Results are Inaccurate
Remember the CalTech/MIT study on the improbability of the mismatch between the exit polls and the "actual" election outcome? Someone else agrees . . .

Dr. Ron Bauman confirms (in a separate study) Dr. Steven Freeman's study concluding there was a 1 in 250 million chance that the discrepancies between exit polls showing a Kerry victory and the official number showing a Bus win were the product of random variation, supporting the strong theory that either the exit polls or the election were heavily flawed. (original via Snohomish County Democrat Yahoo! Group)

Link to the story at FreePress.org here. Direct link to pdf file: http://www.freepress.org/images/departments/997.pdf

These unexplained statistical anomalies in the vote count in critical states, such as Ohio,Florida, and Pennsylvania, and in the national popular vote for the 2004 Presidential elections, indicate:

a) Implausibly erroneous exit sampling especially for the national sample and forthe most critical states where one would have expected pollsters to be most careful, and/or

b) Election fraud and/or discriminatory voter suppression that resulted in a in an election result in Ohio, Florida, and other states, and in the nationalpopular vote outcome, that is contrary to what would have occurred in a free and fair election.

I conclude that, based on the best exit sample data currently available, neither the national popular vote, or many of the certified state election results, are credible and should not be regarded as a true reflection of the intent of national electorate, or of manystate voters, until a complete and thorough investigation of the possibilities a) and b) above is completed.

Who has an ID? Me, me, me, me.

I always had one, my children got one when babies because they had to travel with their grand-parents, AND WE NEVER THINK OF IT...
It's just a proof of our identity. It was never asked to me by the police, but if I write a check over a certain summ, they ask it, or when I go to the city hall to ask for official papers.

It just bears : my name, birth date, size, address. That's all.
But I always check I have it with me, in case something happened to me as an accident when I'm out. Strangely enough, it makes me feel safe.

I think it's use is closer to your driver license, except it's very hard to falsify or rob.

Did I ever feel being under control or close watch by the police?

Non, non, jamais (never).

There is no misuse of IDS.
But we don't have crazy leaders either.

I forgot about my ID, there is also my picture, an invisible fingerprint, and a code with my name scattered in it, on the down part.

That gives you an idea of how much interest I pay to that ID, I'm not even able to spot all the details, because I never do. No one does.

I did read that the Brits are angry about a national ID card, too. The ONE good thing I've read about England is that their high court overturned their equivalent of the Patriot Act.... That was a ray of good news, besides the close election in Washington state's gubernatorial race that might prove a boon to the Democrats...

I'm not sure WA state's election has been finalized yet; there was that pesky reference to an appeal and the fact that several hundred votes (in a heavily Democratic county) haven't been counted yet because the repukes got the recount stopped.... So, yes, Marc (to answer your question from the previous thread), apparently there are still places in the US where they do try to count all the votes.... My best guess is that if they've gone to all this trouble to do a hand recount, they must not be using e-voting machines. I'm totally amazed if it's actually true.... And, if only 8 votes means they have a new Democratic governor, that's proof enough for me that EVERY VOTE COUNTS!!! Well, in my opinion, that is.... :-) The repuke administration likely has a different version of the truth....

Now, back to national ID cards.... can anyone explain why it might be necessary??? I've never heard a satisfactory explanation. In doing genealogy research, I know to avoid identity theft some states and/or counties make one prove they are getting birth/death info regarding ancestors or relatives of ancestors before they'll let one get a copy of birth or death info. But a national ID card? Seems like another monumental waste of money, just like Homeland Security and the new National Intelligence Director. ALL that would have been necessary is open lines of communication between CIA and FBI, not more money spent on creating more bureaucratic red tape.... which only means for this administration that our idiot-in-chief now has more people to blame for any snafus he's directly responsible for....

DiAnne.... click on my name and email me, please. I might (ONLY might) have a solution to the double posting thing. Not sure, but it works for me.

Posted by: Andrée-France | December 22, 2004 10:11 AM

Andree, you're wise to carry the ID.... When I worked in law enforcement years ago, I got a call one day asking if there had been a car accident. I got the auto license, vehicle description, name of the driver, who had not arrived at a destination in another state, but the caller knew what highways were being traveled. Turns out, the one car accident where the driver with no ID was killed, and it was the person who never made it to his destination. Don't know why he didn't even have his driver's license in the glove box....

IF we didn't have a prez like ours, and a legislature with some shred of common sense (even some Dems have lost it now) I wouldn't object to a national ID card. As is, I have a driver's license with photo ID and description and signature, along with organ donation info on the back of it, and like you, if checks are written over a certain amount, I am asked for my ID. We also have social security numbers which can either be obtained shortly after birth or when we're teenagers, although that does not come with a photo ID, we do use it for filing income taxes ever year. However, reality is what it is, and to switch to a national identity card right now, on top of a state driver's license with photo ID (people who don't drive cars can get a state photo ID), would only put this nation further in debt.... At this moment in time it's cost-prohibitive and just not necessary since almost all adults drive and already have a state driver's license which doubles as a state photo ID.

Andree

It's not the ID specifically that I was objecting to - it's the way the law was snuck past even our legislators in a 3000+ page document.

We are concerned about our press & our electoral system so we are (some of us, anyway) concerned about curtailment of our civil liberties.

It is one thing if a potential terrorist is nearing a nuclear plant. It is another to be stopped for arbitrary reasons or to be harassed if speaking out against, say, immoral wars - & that could be a real danger.

-- If this does not post twice, it's because I'm on a different compupter.

NonnyO

They intend to have you paying for it? Here it's free and it lasts for 10 years.
In fact it's our only official identity document. Passport, driver license, social security card.... are just papers. They have no legal value.

DiAnne

I mailed you something about IDS, and how it works.

Everything in America costs money.

Driver's license is $15 in this state & is good for 4 years.

In this state you must be 21 years old to drink (and show the license or the bar gets a $500 fine) but you can vote at 18 and you can die in Iraq at 18 too.

Heads up - Kos has just made himself irrelevant.

Mark Morford (SF Gate) talks today about companies that contributed mostly to Republicans. Amazon.com donated 61% to Republicans.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2004/12/22/notes122204.DTL&nl=fix)

"Heads up - Kos has just made himself irrelevant."

DiAnne-
What'd he do?

DiAnne

Are you talking about the Koz Kerry bashing yesterday, where I suggested they rename the site to Dean? I try, but a rational, big picture look at the election and efforts better spent are becoming more difficult.

Andree -

To second what DiAnne said, yes, it would likely cost money. On the other hand, everything the repukes propose costs money. They may cut taxes for the top one percent of the richest Americans, but likely the corporations who pay the most money to their campaigns would profit the most, too. Any way one looks at it, the repukes come out ahead and profit from the rest of us ordinary schmucks....

A LOT of things were buried in those 3000 pages of the omnibus spending bill that the legislators got the afternoon before they were expected to vote in favor of the whole thing. Likely to this day none of the legislators have even read the entire 3000 pages. That's the sneaky, underhanded way the BushCo administration works.... and it's just how the Patriot Act got voted for without the legislators even reading the danged thing. Things are done in the dead of night, at the last minute under pressure, no debate, and shrubbie just wants things passed and rubber stamped for approval....

I don't remember that a Democrat even mentioned filibustering shrubbie's most recent appointments... and yet there is talk of stopping filibusters before they can even get started, which is a back room campaign apparently headed by Cheney. What I said... Underhanded, sneaky.... Dirty, rotten, no-good, sorry, sons of b*****s... (sorry lady dogs.... didn't mean to malign you...!)
~~~~~

The link DiAnne just posted to Mark Morford's article in the SF Gate is wonderful. BTW, if you love satire as much as I do, you can sign up to have Morford's op-ed pieces sent to you (it's free).

Florida Dem:

This was unnecessary
_________________

Bush's poll ratings fall
Through the last US presidential campaign, George Bush was running on what appeared to be dangerously low approval ratings. Historical precedents suggested that an incumbent who could not get above 50% had little chance of winning. On election day, he had edged above the threshold by a few points but since November the figures have been falling. Salon now expects Mr Bush to be sworn into office on January 20 for a second term with the lowest job-approval rating of any US president in the last 80 years. It is a rather odd state of affairs when you consider he has control of Congress, a margin of several million in the popular vote and - thanks to Time - the accolade of being its person of the year.

Daily Kos is less perplexed than fuming - and not just about the president. "I could deal with losing to a popular incumbent. But it's tough to deal with the most unpopular incumbent to win re-election," he writes. "What makes me angry was Kerry and his gang's inability to take advantage of the situation […] they should be lined up and shot."

how can this tragic story possibly get worse?
Breaking news...

from ABC International NEWS,
Mosul attack was a suicide bomber inside the dining tent...

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=351870&page=1

Y'know what gets me DiAnne about Kos? All the relentless bellyaching about why we lost (because we didn't run Dean, of course). Y'know what? Newsflash. It hurts, but...WE DIDN'T LOSE. That's why it's hard to find where Bush's support increased. That's why the election results don't coincide with approval ratings, or exit polls, or a random poll of people on the street.
Enough with the bellyaching. We don't have to change our message. We don't have to put forward a Southern Dem white male governor, we don't have to pander to "red" states or "red" ideology, we don't have to abandon gay rights or the environment or Social Security or civil liberties or stop protesting a war we never supported. We don't have to lie in bed with the fundies or abandon our quiet but powerful faith that lives out what it believes, even if it doesn't believe in a God whose supposed followers loudly proclaim their allegiance to Him on street corners while simultaneously running headlong over women, minorities, the poor, the working class, unions, the middle class, the old, the sick, the disabled, the intelligent, the foreigners, the non-fundies, etc.
I agree that we need to push and push hard for media and voting reform. I'm glad that was the original intent of this blog and I hope it continues to be. But Kos is often just a bunch of disillusioned Deaniacs crying in their beer and blaming everybody in sight that the Dems "lost"...so I say, prove to me that we lost and then I'll start listening. Until then, I have more productive things to do and they don't take place in a frameshop.

one word to veritas

BRAVO!!!!

Line me up and shoot me, Kos, but im PROUD of what we accomplished and I believe in John Kerry.

Amen Veritas!

Thank you for NOT holding your tongue...

OT:

"You're papers APPEAR to be in order...but we will be watching you..."

It is the slow and malevolent subversion of our rights from within that will bring about the downfall of Democracy.

If OUR representatives in Washington D.C. are not taking the time NO MATTER HOW LONG IT TAKES to have they and their staff read though bills and legislation than THEY ARE NOT DOING THEIR JOBS!!!

They do no service to us as a People, to The Constitution of to OUR NATION!

Slow the process...force the Neocons hands in allowing enough time to review and revise these bills before they are slid through beneath the noses of the governed.

It may seem as a small insignificant thing, but in our America, when one person loses the smallest right to Freedom, Liberty and Justice...WE ALL LOSE!!!

Laws like this, if signed into action, will only serve to feed the paranoia and will to control US and shall only encourage further encroachments upon our civil liberties and freedoms...NOT KEEP US SAFE!

Case in point...the homocide bomber just yesterday most assuredly had a badge or ID identifying him as a SAFE AND SECURE individual. So if this can be accomplished in a fortified Military installation, HOW IN THE HELL can it help us here in the US in a FREE SOCIETY?!?!

It Cannot.

We must fight this, for it has already gone too far.

I have avoided this place for days but I really wan to hear from Seattle the status of their recount. I saw a crawler yesterday saying the Democratic candidate had pulled ahead in the recount. Is that just part of the natural vote count or is it possible we might pull this out, Dianne?

Interesting: There will now be a Senator on the Judiciary Committee that advocates execution of abortion doctors. That goes along with Senator Allard who supports hanging and a Congressman that supports castration of criminal defendants.

Republicans; Building a Bridge to the 16th Century.
Unbelievable that we can't make a case against these jokers.

How do we communicate to kos that we will boycott their site as long as they continue to bash Kerry. Anyone notice the 5 camera shots of JK on the Kennedy center Awards last night. Thank you CBS and Caroline Kennedy for keeping our man on camera. Is Caroline a secret Kerry supporter?

Veritas=Truth

Thanks for saying it the way it really is Veritas.

Democrats Claim 8-Vote Victory In Washington State
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122304Y.shtml
After the body of the info which is about the same as on other links, there was this little note (keep in mind the times listed are likely Pacific Time):
"The state Supreme Court hears an appeal about hundreds of disputed King County ballots at 9:30 a.m. The hourlong hearing will be broadcast live on TVW, channel 23 on most cable networks. Also, King County plans to announce its recount results by 3:30 p.m."

This might be a race to watch and wait for to get the final results.... The one thing Christine Gregoire did RIGHT was just simply NOT CONCEDE.... She has apparently quietly stuck it out through these recounts and every vote is being counted - and she's evidently getting the repuke media to actually pay attention to her because of that.... I'm so proud of her I'm just about to burst with happiness!!! :-)

Magna est vetitas et praevalebit

"Truth is mighty and will prevail"

From: ricky peterson
Subject: Airports will be renamed after Bush

There are some reports from higly placed sources (
which havent appeared in the media yet) that there are
plans by Rove and other Right wingers to create a
legacy for Bush equivalent to that of Lincoln or even
George washington.

Time person of the year is only the first step in a
major conspiracy

* Airports will be named after him.. like his father.

* Universities and think tanks will be started and
existing ones renamed.

* a library to make Clinton' s look like a second hand
book shop.

The full details are not known yet, but like all other
things the results will be astounding.

WE NEED TO GUARD FULLY AGAINST THIS AND EXPOSE BUSH
FOR THE EVIL MAN HE IS..

vincit omnia veritas

Truth conquers all things

Nonnyo:

We are all so jealous of Washington state and the guts you always show. I vote that the 2008 Democratic Convention be held in Seattle.

How can we get this story on the Cleveland Plain Dealer front page?

Please keep us posted of your court hearing today.

We all applaud Washington State and the bluest of blue states.

Veritas, I agree with everything you've said, but one thing that we must note is that we are standing up for people who are very uncomfortable with each other and will refuse to work together at any cost.

We claim to stand for environmental rights, abortion rights, and gay rights. Yet there are conservative immigrants in our ranks who will support none of this agenda. And we must stand for these immigrants too, like it or not.

Is there a plan to actually bring these disparate, conflicting interests together with one big uniting message? Is such a message even possible???

DiAnne-
That's typical Kos, actually that's nice in comparison to what I've seen him write previously. Veritas is right - "Kos is often just a bunch of disillusioned Deaniacs crying in their beer and blaming everybody in sight that the Dems lost."

There are many good Dean people who joined in the fight and actually grew very fond of JK but there are those who STILL choose to fight the primary. Next month it'll be a year since Iowa and I have no doubt they'll still be bitching about it in some way. Their big push now is DNC chair. They are working really hard to make Dean the DNC chair, in part to make up for him losing the primary. In effect they want to make him the de facto president of the Democrats, our official spokesperson. Which is NOT what the chair does. They want a co-chair (right now Rosenberg is their frontrunner for this position) to take on the real duties of running the DNC operation, because the claim they want intra-party reform. Which reform to them means paying more attention to the liberal blogger nation (especially them) and shaking up the primary schedule. One of the main reasons they want to do this is to, again, make up for Dean's primary loss. Some assume that had the more populous blue leaning states with more diversity been thrown into the mix early on Dean would have gotten the momentum, because he supposedly played better in those states. I can't say for sure if this is so. I personally think JK would have still won the primary, but of course that's just my opinion. Regardless, I wish they would get pass their "let's make Dean the Grand Puba campaign" and move on.

More thoughts on the Dem Primary...
I have read discussions by those who do believe at least one state with a more diverse population than Iowa and NH should have an early primary. There is also an idea floating of having the primary candidates campaign in all 50 states and then have one big national super primary election to select the winner,that way all states are repped simulataneously. But the money needed to do that type of campaigning would make it unfair for candidates without huge financial backing. It's unbelieveable that some folks get upset that their state chooses later in the process. Big deal. Someone's got to be last in this process. Besides, you're free to vote for who you want. If a late state votes for another candidate after he or she has gained momentum, big deal again. That's called democracy. Also, 2008 will be a different race. The primary scheduled was stacked this year to give the winner momentum and Dems chose to back the candidate who got it to show a united front against Shrub. With Shrub out the race in 2008, Dems won't feel the need to do this. In 08 primaries will probably go back to being death scrap brawls again.

Any opinions?

No Tin Foil...Just The Facts

I do not know if many (or any) of you remember "True Patriot" from the Kerry Blog.

Many months ago, he reported as a high level executive in Time incorporated that during a meeting of approximately 150 executives, their Executive Vice-president announced that a deal had been struck to save Time $500 million in postal costs over the next 5 years with an unnamed Republican Congressman.

True Patriot had agreed to speak with media outlets about this but NO ONE would listen to him.

This is the kind of corruption that proves the Corporatist Connection with the Neocons and reinforces HOW Bush could be named Man of the Year...

Cost of Time's Corporate Mailings deferred for 5 years: $500,000,000

Having your ugly smirking mug on the cover of Time Magazine: Priceless

If you are not OUTRAGED you have not been paying attention!

I am pleased about the news coming out of the great state of Washington.

I sincerely hope Christine Gregoire hangs on to her win. Washington is too fine a state to deserve clowns like Dino Rossi or John Carlson. WA had a great governor in Gary Locke and it is only logical that Gregoire succeed him.

Florida Dem
They're not mad that the Dems lost. They're still made that Dean lost. Yes.
I like Howard Dean himself but alot of these people are politically naive. Yes the party needs reform. Obviously. Well enough said about Kos (by me). I actually enjoy his stories sometimes. He is probably still pissed about being delinked from the Kerry site after he said something equally stupid.

And here's my take on the National ID's:

It would indeed be a very dangerous precedent to set. A unified database will let any bureaucrat, for any reason, check my background whenever they "feel like it."

Now, with my kind of background (transgender) I wouldn't want just anyone to know my past at whim. California, fortunately, seals my past records and only indicates that I used multiple names. But federal regulations can easily overturn that. So in the future, some rogue fascist cop in a red state can set up a checkpoint, check my ID, see all the juicy bits about my past identity, and even arrest me for some bogus reason.

I certainly won't live in that kind of the United States of America.

Ira - Did Caroline Kennedy mention JK during the show?

Also, Caroline is not just a supporter, she actually made a few campaign appearances with him and on his behalf.

"Under this new law, social security numbers would be given to infants at birth, whereas enrollment in Social Security has been voluntary since its inception in 1935."

I applied for a SS number when my daughter was born. This has been the recommended procedure here in the U.S. for years now. Most hospitals automatically make the forms available along with Birth Certificate forms. It is considered to be a form of identification for your child, supplemental to a birth certificate.

A parent can not receive any sort of of State benefits for thier child, including Welfare, Medical, Food Stamps, or WIC if their child does not have an SS number.

Furthermore, if, as in my circumstances, one of the child's parents passes away, the child will not receive Social Security Survivor Benefits until the child has an SS number.

Public schools ask for SS numbers when you enroll your child, and medical insurance asks for your child's SS number.

A few months ago my daughter enrolled in a class in community college, they asked for her SS number.

Last but not least, your child can not enter the workforce as a teenager without one.

You also can not claim your child as a dependent on your income taxes if the child does not have an SS number.

Here is a link to the SS website and their page about applying for an SS number for your baby - http://www.ssa.gov/gethelp2.htm

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 01:08 PM

Social Security was never intended to be a national ID number when the FDR administration created it. It was to be a safety net for retired Americans.

But as you point out, it is little more than a convenient national ID number scheme now. Now that the real purpose of SS - safety net - is being destroyed by the Bushies, it truly is little more than a national ID scheme.

Ira -

I highly suspect the fundies will do anything to glorify St. George and raise huge amounts of money from poor people to do so.... If I know of anything named in his "honor" I will simply refuse to step foot near it....

There are any number of passive-aggressive things we can do to fight back since we are absent a Democratic leader to rally behind.... check out Mark Morford's op-ed piece in the SF Gate (link above - DiAnne posted it).... change buying habits and buy blue... which will definitely have an impact on the profit margins of the corporations who give big bucks to the repukes.... If one can't find what one wants in a blue store, simply not spending money will still put one ahead of the game and they won't profit....

Even Wal-Mart had to admit that their sales on the Fri. after Thanksgiving were down. That tells me that even the poorer people in our country (who are targeted by Wal-Mart ads) can't afford to shop at Wal-Mart with it's reduced prices, in addition to those staying away from Wal-Mart because of their unfair labor practices and the amount of goods they are importing from China....

It won't make mainstream media if the protests are done silently with the power of the dollar... but it's not like Democrats and those who don't support the current administration are making mainstream media news anyway. Democrats' voices are silenced by simply not airing them - the grand Sin of Omission on the part of Republican- and fundamentalist-controlled mainstream media. Our protests can be silent, too, and it is a way of "turning our backs" on the administration and those in corporate America who support BushCo....

We were louder about protesting Sinclair; and while not totally successful, it worked... and now others have law suits pending against Sinclair. The same thing can work against the other media companies... by simply not buying anything from corporations who support mainstream media with their ads. That takes away half the profit margins they might otherwise have if half of the population of this country and those people in the rest of the world who are against BushCo and the corporations who support that nest of vipers just simply do not spend their money on goods or services those corporations provide....

DiAnne -
I still read DK too. I just skim pass the overly harsh JK critiques. I do like to hear what everyone is saying so I visit alot of Dem blogs and forums to get a feel of what the latest word is. We are a party of such varied opinions.

BTW DiAnne, what intra-party reforms would you like to see?

I am not totally against a National Primary day. If our candidates can't attarct a lot of money they are guarantee to fail in the general election. Even if they can, like Dean its no guarantee of their success.

I am for 4 regional primaries in October, November, December and January. It is preposterous that a state like Iowa or New Hampshire, with homegeous populations, and no southern or conservative leanings choose our candidate. I would rotate the regions every 4 years or simply have a lottery with a national tv audience where the Democratic Chairman picked the regional order out of a hat. But please let us not have our Convention ever again a month before the Republicans or even better have it last. Had we done that this time, well I think you know where I am going here..
the logic here is that if a candidate lets say Edwards claims he is our southern candidate would have to convincingly win the south regional primary. Perhaps the top 2 candidates could then have a national Democratic Presidential Selection day vote in February and the candidate that wins 274 electoral votes, not a poular vote would be our candidate. I would then almost urge that the number 2 winner automatically becomes the vp nominee but I could understand it if that part of the plan might not be popular. This is something like I would envision to be a rivised BCS national poll for our party.

DiAnne

Last I knew there was no charge to apply for a SS number for your child.

Quite frankly, I am grateful that the Social Security program exists and that it might be changed concerns me.

If I had to pay a small fee to get my daughter an SS number, that she might receive her father's SS I would not have cared.

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 12:46 PM

I no longer live in WA state, even if I do live in a blue state now....

But IF the governor's race in WA state is going to make national news this evening, I might actually watch mainstream media news for the first time since the election.... I attempted watching some news the first couple of days after the election, but then gave up when the "news" shows all had right-wing slants to the news, and then added insult to injury by interviewing religious "leaders" who were pushing their agendas into the political scene. I have only watched in-state and local news since then, but have avoided national news.

Posted by: NonnyO | December 22, 2004 01:11 PM

www.buyblue.org
www.choosetheblue.com

I've made it a habit of checking these websites before shopping. Many of my formerly favorite merchants/companies are in the red camp, and I will no longer be patronizing them.

Nonny:

My family has our preferred merchants and merchants to avoid posted visibly in our home.
Perhaps we could design a poster here for like minded Dems to downlaod. Circuit City and Perry Homes(friends looking to buy a new home) along with Walmart will never see a dime of my money.

Posted by: Marjorie G | December 22, 2004 11:43 AM

Majorie G,

I posted a comment to the Kos rant too. I also posted my comment on the Un Blog - http://kerryblog.blogspot.com/2004/12/kerry-blogger-responds-to-kos-koss.html

Pamela:

Great post to Kos. It summarizes susinctly what the Kerry blog was all about and what our objectives were.
Perhaps Dick Bell needs to post his response as well. Well stated.

Posted by: irafighting bush in texas | December 22, 2004 01:20 PM

We also need to remember that a few companies that are identified as "blue" have policies that you'd disapprove of.

I shop at The Gap, but many of my friends refuse because of its sweatshops.

JetBlue Airways is identified as a Democratic donor but it was also the most willing participant in the Bush Administration's CAPPS II passenger profiling system, voluntarily selling passenger information to the bureaucrats.

So please do your research and don't blindly shop somewhere just because the merchant happens to be "blue." Some are bluer than others.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 01:08 PM

Don't know where your daughter is going to college....

When I went to college, the SS number was also the student ID number. In the mid-late 60s when I lived out west, Idaho was using the SS number for the driver's license number. If I remember right, the military also went to using SS numbers instead of selective service numbers??? The SS number, besides uses listed above, is now fairly universal, even if it is not issued with a picture ID, and it's used for all sorts of things for which it was never intended. In a sense, we already have a national ID. Why spend extra money for the means to make what is essentially the same thing as a driver's license issued by every state, but incorporated with the red tape associated with big government???

Social Security was never intended to be a national ID number when the FDR administration created it. It was to be a safety net for retired Americans.

But as you point out, it is little more than a convenient national ID number scheme now. Now that the real purpose of SS - safety net - is being destroyed by the Bushies, it truly is little more than a national ID scheme.

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 01:10 PM

SkinnyLawyer,

GOT KIDS? Evidently not! You can not claim your kid as a dependent if they don't have a Social Security number. It's used for a lot of things that are important to parents.

Social Security was created by FDR to be a safety net for retirees, widows, surviving children and the disabled.

As I have benefited from the Social Security program for the past 12 years, I am extremely concerned about what Bush is trying to do to the program. I would hate to see other's in my situation not be able to benefit from it.

I was not pointing out that a Social Security number is "little more than a convenient national ID number scheme now".

I was pointing out that a Social Security number is vital to parents with children so that they can get Income Tax Credits, Welfare benefits if need be, Survivor Benefits if need be and enroll their children in school.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 01:32 PM

My point though was that Bush is destroying those benefits, and by the time "Generation X" and "Generation Y" hit the retirement age, the system will be long bankrupt. I am a Gen Xer and it would be foolish for me to expect to collect any of my Social Security earnings.

At that point it will indeed be nothing more than a national ID number scheme.

Posted by: NonnyO | December 22, 2004 01:30 PM

NonnyO

We're in CA. My daughter is still in high school, but she is taking a college level language class in order to free up a class period in high school for music classes.

I grew up in MA, when I got my license there it was my SS number.

I agree we do in a sense already have a national id number through the Social Security program.

As immigrants can also apply for SS numbers to file income tax, the argument may be that a separate number might prove our citizenship at birth. Just a thought.

Frankly I think it is ridiculous to have so many different numbers for things like SS, driver's licenses, etc.

There was a very good commentary a week or so ago in the Boston Globe about this subject. I need to find it so I can post it.

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 01:24 PM

Thanks Ira.

I remember when in the 70s Rostankowsky wrote legislation means testing medicare and getting verbally attacked and his car attacked in Florida. Graying boomers will get totally screwed with our retirement age moved up 2-3 years. Can we hope that the elderly will not buy into this scheme of being exempt by Bush's privatization scheme or am I being naiive?

Whether it's red or blue.... if they use unfair labor practices or donate to repukes.... the passive-aggressive action is simply stop supporting them. Or at least support them with as little money as possible when one can't avoid spending at the stores that sell those things. True: it's a nuisance to keep track of..., but think of it as label-reading because you're allergic, and if you don't read the label and get home to find out you've just gotten something you can't possibly use because to do so will make you ill, you'll regret the hassle of returning the item or throwing it out, which is money in the garbage. After the initial time spent reading many labels, you just kinda get a feel for what you can or can not spend your money on and where.... One little change in habit leads to another little change in habit....

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 01:34 PM

Thanks for your conjecture and assumptions on what the SS number will become if Bush suceeds with his plans for SS.

As the only parent of a teenager, I am concerned about the demise of SS for HER future.

Until the day that SS no longer exists, I for one am grateful that program exists and will continue to fight against Bush's plans for it.

Why? For my daughter, for you and everyone else who benefits from it.

This article was in the Boston Globe and the American Prospect. Robert Kuttner, the author makes some very compelling arguments for a national id card, including that is a way to prove that we are eligible to VOTE!

License and Registration

There are plenty of reasons to support a national ID card.

By Robert Kuttner
Web Exclusive: 12.09.04

As a card-carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union, I'd like to have one more card in my wallet. The card I want, contrary to the views of most civil liberties activists, is a national ID card.

Privacy advocates have always resisted this idea, for fear of government snooping on citizens. But that cat is out of the bag. Nearly all of us have driver's licenses, Social Security cards, passports. And corporations, credit agencies, and HMOs keep dossiers, too -- often more extensive than what government maintains.

For civil libertarians, the real issue is not whether government and business collect databases on citizens, but whether there are adequate protections against abuses.

Those protections have come under particular assault in the era of George W. Bush and the USA Patriot Act. But we will not solve the privacy problem by pretending that we are back in a pre-computer era. For that matter, Hitler did not need computers to abuse citizens.

There are several good reasons to support a national ID card. The first has to do with voter registration and democracy.

Tens of millions of Americans don't vote because we make voters go through a two-step process of registering and then voting. As we saw in the elections of 2000 and 2004, the registration process is an invitation to endless political mischief.

In fact, registration was introduced in the late 19th century precisely to hold down the numbers of votes, from former slaves and from recent immigrants. It still functions to hold down voting today.

In most countries, the national ID card certifies your identity, age, and citizenship. That's it. You present the card, and you vote.

In America, millions of volunteer hours and hundreds of millions of dollars go into the needless process of registering voters -- time and money that could go toward political activism and education. So a national ID card, with proper safeguards, would make America more democratic, not less.

The second big reason involves immigration and labor rights. We try to control our borders, but millions of foreigners overstay tourist or student visas or slip in illegally, in order to work. They are able to take jobs because business wants them here to work for low wages and be conveniently frightened of exercising their labor rights.

Our immigration laws require workers to have proof of lawful status, but employers are not punished if the papers turn out to be forgeries, which are easy to obtain. It's much harder to forge a passport-quality national ID card.

So let's decide just what level of immigration we want, make it possible for those immigrants currently working in the country to regularize their status, and then use a national ID card to make clear who is able to work -- and to freely exercise rights as workers without fear of being deported.

In an era where there is justifiable fear of terrorism, a national ID card would also help law enforcement. Identity theft would also be much harder if there were a single, government issued ID card.

A national ID card could help government pursue valuable record keeping, for instance to make sure that all children are immunized, and to pursue epidemiological research that is now difficult or impossible. A single government ID card would dramatically reduce underage drinking. Frail elderly people would cease having to renew drivers licenses solely for the purpose of ID. But libertarians are absolutely right to worry about potential and actual abuses. So the other side of the bargain is a much tougher set of laws protecting against improper invasions of privacy and snooping, both by government and by corporations.

There should be tougher penalties if an HMO sells confidential medical records. We need stronger measures against unwanted telemarketing, and against abuse of credit records.

The so-called USA Patriot Act has outrageous provisions, such as warrant-less snooping and "sneak and peak" searches in which the subject of the search is never informed that his or her privacy has been violated. These need to be repealed and replaced with far narrower search and seizure provisions that are not broad fishing licenses.

Right now, we liberty-loving Americans have the worst of both worlds. Far too many databases keep far too much information on us, with too few controls on its misuse. Yet we don't take advantage of the most basic uses of ID, such as making clear who is properly in the country and making it easier for citizens to vote.

Robert Kuttner is co-editor of The American Prospect. This column originally appeared in the Boston Globe.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=8920

Pamela:

these are all very good arguments for a national id card. the only word/name why we should not trust our id with the federal govt is John Ashcroft. would you trust 'any' of your civil liberties with John Ashcroft?
1984

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 01:56 PM

I second you, Ira.

Not only that, I have special circumstances (which I explained in an earlier post - at 1:07 PM EST) that require the government to be sensitive about my information. I certainly don't expect Asscroft or Gonzales to have any concept or compassion for people in my situation. Every time I show that national ID I will be subject to discrimination or worse.

Pamela:

this administration would also be happy to track which women went to visit an obgyn/abortion physician or buy contraceptives or Michael Moore movies. Say good by to HIPPA and our right to privacy. No thanks please.
The right to Privacy which is under assault by the Heritage Society et al is one of the most valuable attributes along with our Bill of Rights that make this country special. Roe v Wade along with Griswold v Connecticut may be gone soon are you suggesting its time to go down all the way on that slippery slope?

Ira -
I believe the incumbent party always gets to hold its convention last, so that cannnot be helped. Also, I think Iowa does have conservative leanings, Shrub did win it afterall and Gore barely won it.

I did read where the Lt. Gov. of Iowa will not seek the state's top office but will instead chair the state's party. Her primary goal will be to keep Iowa first in the primary season. Apparently the Repubs have already decided that they will stick to the IA/NH schedule, which will make it tough for the Dems not to do so, as well. However, the Dems could throw in one state with a diverse population early on add to the mix and see what happens. Perhaps a state like Missouri or even SC. Media buying in those states shouldn't be as pricy as in other states with a similarly diverse population. One of the reasons IA and NH work well as lead-offs is their affordability. Both are cheap media markets and candidates don't typically have alot of money that early on.

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 01:56 PM

When I first started reading that commentary from Kuttner I was mortified that a progressive, liberal writer would be touting the benefits of national id card. But I read it once, then twice and it made a lot of sense.

I don't trust Ashcroft and I trust his pending replacement less.

I posted my inital post on this thread to point out that although applying for an SS number may be voluntary, as Dick pointed out, it has become a neccessary part of life, particularly for parents with children to qualify for benefits and tax credits.

I also wanted to point out that it has been standard procedure for years now for parents to apply for SS numbers for their babies because the SS number is neccessary for tax credits and things like welfare benefits, etc.

Florida Dem:

I am sorry to insult iowa or new hampshire, but you know i don't really care anymore. I strongly believe in a 4 day regional and then national primary day for the top 2 candidates to prove once and for all that the democratic Party is a National Party, not a regional party. I don't see Iowa as a "conservative state". Would a conservative state consistantly re elect a fine Senator like Tom Harkin by large margins. Its time to think way outside the box and make our party a National Party.
If you are correct about the timing of Conventions, then fine let the Repubs announce their's first and place our's the week before. That month lag time was an absolute disaster that I blame our Chairman for and should not stand. I hope that everyone agrees that that month difference in time is exactly what the swift boat idiots needed and a prime cause for our unnecessary loss. OK I will say it. Had the convention been 2-3 weeks closer in time when would be celebrating President Kerry today.

Ira & Skinny

You know (devil's advocate here), there is a flip side to everything.

While the thought of a national id card maybe daunting to some, I think that Robert Kuttner's argument about it protecting Voter's rights carries a lot of weight.

I don't spend my life in paranoia. I despise this administration and all it stands for and I spend a good part of each day fighting it.

The government already has the ability to track who takes birth control, rents a Michael Moore movie, etc. If they want file on my they can knock themselves out. I have nothing to hide.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 02:13 PM

You are right on one thing: the government can really track the heck out of anyone it wants. Commercial credit reports and background check services, for one, would reveal my former names, my habits, my "moral character," even the brand of underwear I wear. The former East German Stasi would be envious of our background check services' efficiencies.

I don't have much to hide either. But I don't want my information to come back and be used to discriminate against me - which is a real issue with someone of my kind of background (again, see my 1:07 PM EST post). And I will not support a measure that can make the abuse of the information even easier than it already is.

Pamela:

You are absoluetly right on how many ways our SS numbers have become important. You should also consider that illegally obtaining SS numbers is also the number 1 cause of identity theft and the disastrous financial implications it has.Would you trust Walmart or any of the thousands of telemarketers who give millions to Repubs to keep it confidential or keeping the politician you voted for secret. Think what Karl Rove would do with that info. Do you remember the facory worker in Tennessee that had a Kerry bumper sticker and then got fired. No thakns not me.Can you tell me precisely where Ashcroft/Gonzalez would stop?

For civil libertarians, the real issue is not whether government and business collect databases on citizens, but whether there are adequate protections against abuses.
Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 01:52 PM
~~~~~~~

Aye, there's the rub.... Besides the sneaky way the National ID was passed, plus the fact that there was nothing definitive about the law, but is apparently "to be defined later." That's how the Patriot Act got voted in.... While it wasn't buried in 3000 pages of an omnibus bill, the legislators didn't read it, and I even heard one story that said it wasn't written until AFTER the dang thing was voted on (wish I could remember the source, but it was long ago and my brain is overloaded with political stuff). MM's F-9/11 had an interview with a legislator who admitted he hadn't read the Patriot Act but had voted in favor of it.... and how many of our senators and representatives did just exactly that, and woke up sadder but wiser later. Yes. I do believe all who voted in favor of the Patriot Act owe the American citizens an apology, along with introducing a bill to repeal the Patriot Act, and then voting in favor of repealing it. Voting for something which counters the rights we were given in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights that was never discussed, let alone never read, is unconscionable!!! We have placed too much trust in our senators and representatives and that trust as been sorely misplaced and abused.... We are already into laws that make us a fascist nation; making more laws to cement that fact is not going to help us.

In this day and age under BushCo, we can leave NOTHING to chance, including a national ID card!!! We don't know how they will screw us over, and we keep getting blind-sided every time BushCo presents a red herring to the media to rant and rave about for a week... and meanwhile, back at the ranch, or in some back room at the White House, or in the oval office when no one is looking, BushCo is making secret deals to corporatize America, or signing yet another secret Executive Order...... None of which bodes well for any American who doesn't pay big bucks to keep him in office....

It would be much easier to have everything under one number, true. But under the BushCo administration who will use any means possible to abuse the system??? I think not. If we ever have a president in office we can trust again (well after 2008, I'm sure), and senators and representatives who will work for those of us who vote them into office, then come to the table and we'll discuss it.... and I do mean talk about it...!

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 02:19 PM

SkinnyLawyer,

I saw what you posted as your primary and valid concern. My question is do ID's you have now state one or the other? If they do then I can only assume that a national id card would do the same.

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 02:20 PM

Ira

I am fully aware that SS number is used for idenity theft.

But without it, my daughter would not have been able to benefit from Social Security after her father commited suicide.

Is there some reason why I need to argue this further?

A lot of people benefit from Social Security, particularly children. That is why they set it up so that parents register for a SS number for their children at birth years ago.

As a parent I understand the need for registering our children for Social Security numbers. That's why I brought it up. Now you can all argue over the right or wrong of this, but point blank, if you have children and you claim them on your income tax, then they have an SS number.

I don't see this, having an SS number for our children, as a bad thing. Low income families benefit from income tax credits, some low income families need Welfare, Food Stamps, State Medical benefits.

There are a lot of compelling reasons why children should be registered. Every parent knows that. Particularly needy parents.

James Madison:

“I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”

“The Truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted.”

“The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.” [Federalist No. 47 (1788) 1961:301]

“The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.”

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.”

And pertaining to National ID cards:

“It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution. The freemen of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much. . . to forget it.”

Posted by: NonnyO | December 22, 2004 02:23 PM

NonnyO,

I posted that article from Robert Kuttner, that you quoted from my post, because he is a respected liberal, progressive commentator.

Yes, we do need to make sure that a national idenity card does not violate our civil liberties.

And yes, I also am horrified by the Patriot Act.

But again, I can only say that I originally entered into this conversation to point out that these days people apply for SS numbers for their children at birth.

I know that folks here who do not have children might not be aware of that, but I also know that both Dick and Karen are parents and our children are close in ages.

Great than let the government electronically tag you and your children and see how long it is before that in iteslf is ABUSED by those in power...then it is too late...you have a chip inserted under your skin and it is a federal offense to remove it...seems like branding to me.

National IDs are the beginning of the encroachments upon our rights...will we have road blocks at each state border under the guise of keeping us safe and secure from the "enemies of the State or Nation"? Will they then extend them to counties, cities, towns...when will they restrict our movements or right to move from one state to another? When will they segregate us by religion or political ideology or race? How long will it be that we are all just numbers allowed to perform menial tasks to feed our masters?

Scoff if you like, but this is one instance where allowing the simplest and most innocently appearing laws could turn devistatingly oppressive in the hands of the Government...the Founding-Fathers knew this, so hoe long before we understand it as well?

Pamela:

You are totally missing the point. I doubt anyone of us doubt the importance of Social Security numbers as currently used for you and children. The number and Social Security are tremendously valuable assets of this country. As a lawyer I fully understand when I have minor clients they need SS numbers and I help them process them their applications.

The issue today is not whether we want to illiminate SS numbers which need "More" privacy not less to avoid id theft and more telemarketing hassles. I am for strengthening SS number safeguards only not for expanding them and giving Ashcroft/Gonzlez more rights to snoop into our lives. I believe we agree that SS is a cherished and wonderful program, that needs more protections not less as the Bush Administration proposes. Remember Newt's promise to have it whither on the vine. I take his promise very seriously and as someone approaching that age shutter to think it will be destroyed right when I get ready to retire in 13 years.

Someone earlier posted that they are not paranoid. I agree for the first time in weeks with Indy. I have never been paraoid in my life of my govt(well execpt during Nixon) until now. Today I do not trust anything, not one thing coming from Washinton. And I think so for very good reason.We should fight every single bill coming from this whacko Congress.

Received from MN -

Thomas Frank, the author of a best-selling book about what's wrong with
Kansas, spoke to a group in St Paul. He received an award from them.

The speech begins slowly but it's some of the most inciteful analysis of
Republicans, Democrats, and social class that I have heard.

Enjoy.

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/politics_government/

Are
your representatives standing up for your rights the way you want them to? Why don't you make your voice heard in the same
way. Here is a one click page that looks up your senators and representative and sends them your personal message all at the
same time.

http://www.thepen.us/contest.html

Speaking of paranoia, this is not my conspiracy theory but it is interesting:

From a guy who was a political operative in MI recently, published on astroworld website:

Here's my conspiracy theory about what's going on behind the scenes. Of course, we'll never know if this is the case so maybe this is pure fantisizing on my part. But here goes anyway. Enjoy.

I think the election was rigged. And I think that certain Democrats know this and think they have enough evidence to prove it. At the same time, I think there are some Democrats who are benefiting from the rigged system (probably some of the more conservative ones). Now not all of the Republicans are winning dishonestly, in fact a good number of them are probably winning fair and square. These Republicans, some of whom know that the election was rigged but did not benefit from the rigging, are waiting to see what happens. Bush knows the election was rigged and Kerry knows too, at least now he does. For political reasons, Kerry can't do anything about it, and he will be far better positioned in the end if he keeps his mouth shut.
Bush, Cheney, and Rove know that there is possible legal battle on the horizon. They have created a new administration defined almost exclusively by loyalty to Bush as a protective measure.

I think that the Democrats who know about the rigged election and did not benefit from the rigging want to put a stop to the practice. Unfortunately, the Dems are in the minority, and as I understand it, they do not hold the power of subpoena or even the power to hold "official" hearings. For this reason, I think they are willing to accept the results of this election and keep silent about the rigged vote in exchange for the dismantling of all equipment used to rig the vote so that it will never happen again. The Repugs, of course, want to keep their system in place. The evidence that is slowly being accumulated, including the affidavit from that guy who says he wrote the election-rigging code, is being used as a bargaining chip. The Dems will tell (or may have already told) the Repugs: put a stop to the election rigging quietly or we'll go public.

The risk of going public is that the Dems will be up against the corporate media, which is quite willing to do a coverage blackout for as long as possible. They also risk being portrayed as lunitics by Republicans, by Dems who benefitted from the rigged vote, and by the media. Coming out and claiming that our national election was rigged sounds preposterous to most Americans, and there is an enormous presumption that the election was fair and square.

The unofficial "hearings" on the Ohio election fraud are both a way to accumulate evidence to back up the Dems AND are intended to set precendent for such hearings in the future. They give the Dems another bargaining chip. The Dems will use these hearings in the future to prove that the election was rigged if they can muster enough evidence.

The Democrats who believe the election was rigged have to be extremely careful in this matter. We're talking about the future of American Democracy here. One wrong step could do us in, permanently. Hence the hush hush.

-----

So this is one waaaaaaaay far "out there" possibility. The other is that the Dems are quitely searching for evidence of election fraud.

In either case, silence is golden.

SkinnyLawyer,

I saw what you posted as your primary and valid concern. My question is do ID's you have now state one or the other? If they do then I can only assume that a national id card would do the same.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 02:38 PM

Pamela,

The state of California, with consent of a physician who fills out a confidential form verifying my gender identity, will designate the gender on my driver's license as something I identify as (female), not something I was born with (male). Also, all my old names on my driving record are sealed, and only "multiple names" designation remains. This makes sure that I can go out, get jobs and live a "normal life" (whatever it means) with little fear of discrimination.

With the feds (passport or a national ID card), my gender is what my genitals say (male until I have the surgery). Even after the surgery, I have to submit a humiliating amount of documentation to get it changed. During the transitional period I will still be branded as male, which will make it all but impossible to get jobs and make a living. And I don't see the Bush Administration making it easier at all for me.

So it does matter. Unfortunately.

My whole point in bringing up the identity cards issue was to introduce the concept that this was put into a law that we only heard rumors about (maybe ..) & that some who voted on it may not have had time to thoroughly review it, since it was 3000 pages long.

Where was the public debate, as they are having in the UK for a similar program?

My paranoia definitely came from reading about Patriot Act II & the Terrorist Information Act (formerly known as Total Information Act), formerly headed by Poindexter, who worked under Nixon. & they were working on the iris recognition & also gait recognition. Google around & try to see their sites - they are quite something!

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 03:08 PM

Ira,

Like I said, I posted my intial post to point out that registering a child at birth for a SS number has been a standard for years. Sure it is voluntary as Dick said, but with out it parents can not claim their children on their income tax, get benefits such as welfare or Social Security Survivors benefits.

So you are a lawyer and you understand these things from the stand point of helping clients. Well, Ira, I am an only parent, who has first hand experience of all of this!

You see, Ira, not only has my daughter benefited from her father's Social Security, but because I am an only parent (never married, mind you), I have also been in the position to need assistance such as Welfare, State Medical and Food Stamps!

So forgive me for being just a little testy when some of you here don't seem to get the reasons for registering our children at birth for SS numbers.

As a lawyer, Ira, I would hope that you have had the opportunity to put aside some retirement funds of your own.

Me, I have not had that luxury, being a former welfare mother, and all. So I get the fears of the demise of the Social Security program. The demise of many government programs have affected me personally and my daughter.

I hold my civil rights and civil liberties very dear and I am fighting for my daughter's future.

I honestly don't feel I should be having this argument here among "friends", simply because I pointed out that people register their children for SS numbers at birth and because I also posted a liberal, progressive view on the national id card issue.

I personally see the benefits for this, as long as our rights are safeguarded.

So I thank you all for attacking my comments on something that has benefited not only me and mine, but millions of other parents and children in this country.

Wow! We're the liberals! The ones who care about the poor! Evidently not here.

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 03:19 PM

Skinnylawyer,

Thank you for clarifying that. I understand your concerns and am not unsympathetic to them.

I'm not 100% for this national id concept but I do see some benefits.

Furthermore, Kuttner's argument of how it could help prevent voter fraud made sense. For all the concerns about voter fraud, I thought that perhaps some would see his point as I did.

Oh well...

My whole point was that there should be some debate. Other than the ACLU & a couple of citizen's groups, for the United States, I think we're about it!!

It's been all over the British press for awhile - the Queen weighed in on it. Someone sent me info from Democratic Underground & one Congressperson, a Republican, had questioned it. Robert Byrd & I think Jim Jeffords voted against the entire bill in the Senate. I know for a fact Byrd won't vote for something he hasn't read - in fact he said the intelligence bill in general doesn't protect us from terrorism. He is also the guy who carries a Constitution copy in his pocket at all times.

Then the Seattle P-I came out with the editorial & I figured - here is something that everyone from liberals to libertarians including conservative ones ought to have some opinion on. I hope I'm right. I think the public deserves some say in this & other matters of "security."

I remember soon after 9-11 when government officials were warning that we would have to live with more security in order to have more safety. At the time, I remember questioning this but since then, even more so, as I do not trust our government. I do not trust them one bit. They lie.

I personally see the benefits for this, as long as our rights are safeguarded.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 03:26 PM

The problem is that we cannot trust the government under BushCo to safeguard our rights. I spilled my beans out and posted some very personal information just so that you can see an example of why this government won't safeguard my - and our - rights.

Andree in France is happy with her national ID card because her government is a lot less power-hungry than Bush's AND will safeguard personal information, something that you want - but something the Bush Regime won't do.

Pamela, I don't think anyone is attacking your views. Please calm down.

Pamela
No one is attacking Social Security.
It's just that when you mention the safeguards, I don't see them in place.

In Europe people have a national identity card & they have intact social security retirement benefits as well as national health coverage.

Here we are having our social "safety net" programs that even Reagan wouldn't touch taken away as fast as they can get it done. Grover Norquist, their economics guru, wants government to be so small it can be drowned in a bathtub.

It's two issues - the card & the entitlements but this is a good time to demand that we have both if we have any.

And would there be instead of a "felon" list a "Dem" list or an "Independent" list or a "Green list"...directing the individual to a paperless voting machine for their vote to be lost in the Ether?

You can BET your life on it!

Would the Government then be free to sell personal information ( or at the very least bargain with our information ) to corporations who want to send us unwanted marketing and solicitations?

Where does it end? We have already seen the abuse of power and corruption so prevolent in this administration.

If we can have a paper trail at an ATM machine, we can certainly do so in an election, but we do not need National Ids to exercise our rights as Americans as we have done for over 200 years.

I'm with Indy on this National ID card stuff.... I wasn't paranoid about my government until shrubbie got handed the election in 2000.

There's not one thing, however "innocent" it seems on the surface, that I will trust as a valid law or regulation or for the benefit of the citizens of this nation as a whole until we (1) get back a legislature that hasn't been bought out by the corporate neocons - and that means both Dems and repukes; and (2) get a president in office that can be reasonably trusted to see to the good of all the citizens of this nation AND get along with the leaders of other nations....

At this immediate moment in time, I'm not sure I'll see that happen in my lifetime. The people who supported shrubbie on "values" haven't learned their lesson yet, and they're still under the thrall of ministers who are brainwashing them on "values" they can't even possibly define except in five-second sound byte terms they hear from their minister or the repukes in political ads or repeated in mainstream media sound bytes. They have not learned how to think for themselves because they haven't yet realized they have voted against what's best for themselves. I don't know how many election cycles it will take for people in this country to wake up and smell the coffee....

Until then, if it happens there does turn up a politician who can be trusted and a legislature who will look out for the rights of the citizens of this country before I live to the end of my days (whenever that may be), whatever paranoia I did not have before, I'm acquiring, PDQ....

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 03:11 PM

Ira

I posted that I am not paranoid, and I am not. Do I worry about things. You betcha! I spend the better part of each day being concerned what is happening in this country. However, instead of dwelling on all the fantasies of what could happen in the future, I choose to try to make a difference in the now.

I live in the moment. If I didn't I never would have gotten through most of what life has handed me and made my life better, and my daughter's life better.

On that note, I'll share a story with you about my past. I once dated a retired FBI agent. After we had dated a short time, he informed me that he had run a "check" on me. I was incredulous at the time, but also knew that I had not sort of record.

I look back on that, these days and laugh to myself, because I figure that my involvement in the election has changed that. I'm proud of what I have done as a political activist. And I will continue to do what I do, regardless.

Here is some on the British equivalent - Blunkett is their Ashcroft & he's recently been involved in a big scandal.

Britain does not have National Identity Cards like the European continent. I'm sure US/UK have been plotting together.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1362273,00.html

In Europe people have a national identity card & they have intact social security retirement benefits as well as national health coverage.

It's two issues - the card & the entitlements but this is a good time to demand that we have both if we have any.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:40 PM

National health coverage - or health coverage of any kind - a hot-button issue for certain.

We pushed for national health coverage and got burned in '94 at the polls as a result. The Repugs have brainwashed the public so well into thinking that public healthcare is a bad thing, when it will be beneficial for the big majority of people in fact.

This is what we are up against... and the further erosion of SS by calling it another evil government program.

There is a reason why the Repugs keep talking about the evils of big government. That's precisely because the big government they are making right now is indeed EVIL!

Pamela

You're doing good if you had no FBI record up until now! I doubt many political activists can say that.

The whole point about some of these laws is being proactive. It's not like the government asks our opinion.

Pamella:

Don't understand the hostility. We agree. What is it that you don't understand. Children need and should continue to have SS cards and numbers. We just don't want this Administration to take those cherished benefits away from you and your family or expand their ways of violating that privacy which would hurt you and your family's rights to benefits. We are on the same side here so your continued criticisms make 0 sense.

This discussion is going nowhere and this subject should be changed.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 03:26 PM

No one is attacking you about SS cards and the benefits we currently have with them, or for registering your children at birth with them. We all know the SS numbers and cards are beneficial.

What we're saying is that if the system can be abused by whatever means under the current administration, it will be.... because we don't trust BushCo....

There's not a snowball's chance in hell that BushCo would safeguard your interests, the interests of your children, or the interests of anyone else in this nation under the current administration. That, on principle, is why I wouldn't support a national ID at this time. It is an idea to be considered in the future IF (and ONLY IF) we ever have any politicians we can trust in office. Too much corruption is going on right now. If there's a chance the system could be abused, BushCo would do it in a heartbeat and never have a twinge of guilty conscience about it....

OK???

The public is being brainwashed to trust the government as being just the "military" - I don't see proof that they intend to maintain much else.

Prisons are being run for-profit. Jeb Bush has faith-based prisons - 3 of them, at least. Profits are made off drugs, nursing homes & even juvenile detention centers.
Under No Child Left Behind, even tutors have to be private, such as Sylvan learning - or no funding.

Yukos Oil just went bankrupt, in Russia. Where did they have their trial? In Houston. Who bought them? No one knows. It is a "company that has been in the oil business for a long time."

Are we wrong to be suspicious of this new type of hypercapitalist government that wants to undo every "New Deal" program?

[This article just keeps getting more interesting as you read it.... ]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15644-2004Dec21.html
GOP Corporate Donors Cash In on Smut
By Terry M. Neal
Excerpt:
"In my recent Yahoo Political Players interview with Tucker Carlson, the conservative writer and CNN Crossfire co-host asserted that the red/blue divide is rooted in the dismay many Americans perceive in the vast social and cultural changes happening in the country and the fact that the masses of people in middle America blame a distant, coastal elite for fostering those changes.

"The people who run the Republican Party are elites just like any other elite, and they don't share the same cultural concerns as the center of the country," said Carlson. "They don't -- they're all pro-choice on abortion, they're all pro-gay rights, they're all thrice married, you know what I mean? And they summer in the Hamptons, too. And so they don't have anything in common, that's true, with evangelicals who make up the bulk of their party."

In this world of irony, corporate leaders at companies as diverse as News Corp., Marriott International and Time Warner can profit by selling red state consumers the very material that red state culture is supposed to despise. Those elites then funnel the proceeds to the GOP, which in turn has used the money to successfully convince red state voters that the other political party is solely responsible for the decline of the civilization."

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/rewarding_incompetence.php
Rewarding Incompetence
Cindy Sheehan
[Mother of soldier killed in Iraq responds to Time's selection of man of the year.]

I think all the discussion on this topic has been great. The issue was whether we should have national identity cards. No one knows. We don't know what they intend to do with them. Who among us has had access to anything specific about that?

We will continue to have Social Security but a portion will be privatized, to the tune of 3 trillion that has to be borrowed, thus raising our debt & increasing the risk that other countries will no longer want to loan us money & our dollar will plummet.

This is actually some of the best debate & discussion I've seen on here.

Britain does not have National Identity Cards like the European continent. I'm sure US/UK have been plotting together.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:44 PM

That's primarily because the UK, being on an island, relied more heavily on tight immigration controls at the ports of entry. People within the tight, cozy island, in return, got a ID check-free society much like what the US has enjoyed.

This is also why the UK is not part of Europe's Schengen agreement, which allows travelers to cross borders between most European countries without having to show documentation (because you will have to carry your national ID or passport at your destination at all times anyway).

I could see one rationale for the UK instituting national IDs - to join this Schengen system. However, the same rationale is not applicable to the US.

No one is attacking Social Security.
It's just that when you mention the safeguards, I don't see them in place.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:40 PM

DiAnne

I honestly don't know what to say, except currently we STILL have Social Security and we need to fight like hell to protect it. I've been writing about the Social Security issue on the LUTD Blog for the past couple of weeks. So has Ron Chusid.

As it stands right now, we who have children, and I know you do, rely on our children having SS numbers to get claim them as dependents and a number of other things. So for those reasons I don't have an issue with my daughter having one since birth.

Registering our children at birth was implemented to prevent tax fraud and welfare fraud. That makes sense to me. They are people who abuse the system and people who need to rely on the system.

If a national id system is implemented probably it can do some good. Yes, we need to push to make sure it is implemented properly. And yes, we need to protect Social Security. I have a unique understanding of that, which many others here do not.

Fantasy or Reality?

Wake up and smell the Fascist State...

Though there are GOOD applications for such technology, as with everything this administration has done, it won't be long before this technology is MANDITORY and abused.

http://www.4verichip.com/

Interesting survey dealing with just this issue:

http://www.betterhumans.com/Features/Polls/poll.aspx?pollID=2004-10-18-1

Article on the technology:

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=32286

NonnyO

I was reading some of that this morning. There is a link on AlterNet about Rush Limbaugh enjoying his choice Cuban Cohiba cigars & so on too. Goddamn hypocrites.

Posted by: NonnyO | December 22, 2004 03:52 PM

NonnyO

I wrote about Terry Neal's column yesterday on LUTD - http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=154

Pamela

We have social security cards & we have driver's licenses. Social security is a great program that we need to maintain. My mom lives on it exclusively. My sister is on Medicaid because of a mental health issue. For people like her, who are dependent on the state, they have always been completely tracked.

My main point was not just about the identity card (which does not give us any new rights or programs) but about the fact that it was embedded into a 3000 page law.

Are we wrong to be suspicious of this new type of hypercapitalist government that wants to undo every "New Deal" program?

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:48 PM

Just because communism failed doesn't mean that capitalism is the cure-all. The most stable, happiest societies on earth - Europeans, Canadians, etc - have a good mix of both capitalist and socialist elements. Balance between these two conflicting ideologies is key.

In fact, the Communist Empire failed because the ruling class and the military-industrial complex got all the glory while the workers the Commies claimed to care for got little if at all. Unfortunately, the most capitalist of the societies, the US, doesn't look all that different now.

Capitalism is fine. Entrepreneurship is fine.

Hypercapitalism, globalization & lust for world domination are not fine.

Notice that there was death & destruction in Iraq yesterday & there are new terror allegations, but the Stock Market is up, due to the "Santa Claus rally" - sick is what it is.

Goddamn hypocrites.
Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:54 PM

Amen!!! :-) The article just kept getting more .... interesting... the more I read.

Actually, many many months ago Primetime did a special about how much porn is produced by subsidiaries of perfectly "respectable" communications companies and how much they profit from it (including Disney, BTW, which makes more off of porn than they do the G-rated movies they produce...)

So much for "family values."

Ah, let the paranoia begin and remember that there is always a little truth in every paranoid ideation. In the last week, BBC has reported on the pharmaceutical industries' foray into intrusive tracking. They are able now to insert a chip into the drug you get from your trusted pharmacist and track it from manufacture to ingestion. The scenario put forth by the proud proponants of this technology : one could drive down any street and determine what pharmaceuticals were located within any home or vehicle via a remote sensing device. One could determine if those pharmaceuticals were in the possession of the individual who had been legitimately prescribed them or in the possession of another individual. One could conceivably be tracked by the drugs one had ingested, kinda like the slimy trail a slug leaves on my walk in the morning. After the horror settled, I was vastly amused at the prospect of a national tracking institute with a large screen that popped up a locator 'shwing!' each time a Viagra was gulped. Pardon my slim attempt at humor but I am trying to wash the nasty taste out of my brain of the image of W as Lady MacBeth, trying hopelessly to wash out that damned spot of blood on his hands. After watching the news conference on CSPAN in which he inexplicably begins muttering to his tie, it occurred to me that ol Blinky is back and he's got a few more tics and twitches than in the debates. I digress. Chips in my aspirin? Big Brother is watching you and so is Mr.Merck. Yikes.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 03:57 PM

DiAnne

I initially posted what I did about Social Security because of Dick's comment: "Under this new law, social security numbers would be given to infants at birth, whereas enrollment in Social Security has been voluntary since its inception in 1935."

The fact is as I stated in my initial post that people already do register their children for SS numbers at birth and have for years now.

People who do not have children may not be aware of this and feel it is an infringement. However, as I pointed there are reasons and they are all valid, why people register their children for SS numbers at birth.

Anyone who has not had the need in their lifetime to rely on things like Social Security Survivors benefits or Welfare may not understand that.

I was attempting to clarify those things.

I also understand that the national id card was buried in a 3000 bill. I found Robert Kuttner's argument to be interesting and felt he made some good points. I never said that a national id card would give us any new rights or programs.

So suddenly, I'm not getting the point, as I have been told here on either issue.

I get the point very, very well. I've lived it. Like your mother and your sister.

The points I have been trying to make are that we already do register our children for SS numbers, and for good reason and that if we stop and look at the national id card situation and fight for our rights to be protected under it, it could have some benefits as Robert Kuttner pointed out.

Maybe no one here reads the American Prospect, or knows who Robert Kuttner is, but it and he have a lot to offer.

Not to change the subject, but (to change the subject)...this from the dkos...clipped from an article written by Russ Feingold:

How Radical conservatives are robbing the American dream
Goin' south
A driving trip through Alabama reminds a U.S. senator from Wisconsin how radical conservatives are robbing hardworking people of the American dream.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Russ Feingold

Dec. 21, 2004 | On Nov. 2, I was fortunate enough to be elected by the people of Wisconsin to a third term in the U.S. Senate. Right after the election, I confess I immediately went looking for a warm place to golf. So I piled into a van with some friends in Milwaukee and drove from Wisconsin to Alabama. All of us were thrilled with the beauty of the state and the kind reception we Northerners received from everyone. Then my wife, Mary, drove down to collect me for one last round of golf and a brief, two-for-the-road vacation through the South. She met me in Greenville, Ala.

As she made the turn onto Exit 130 in Greenville, Mary saw the same little building my buddies and I had seen a day earlier. Banners on the roof read "Republican Headquarters" and "George W. Bush." At the very top of the roof, a celebratory message had been unfurled. It read, simply, "Hallelujah." She had the same thought that had occurred to the rest of us when we first saw the tiny structure and the big banners: If the red-and-blue map of the United States were to have an intensity meter, this place may well glow as the reddest spot on the whole map.

That night, the two of us dined at the Bates House of Turkey, just behind the Republican headquarters. When we ordered at the counter, we noticed George W. Bush bumper stickers offered for sale next to the cash register -- a hand-lettered sign said the price was $1, and a nearby jar was stuffed with bills. The young lady behind the counter followed our gaze and then looked across at us. "We're Democrats," my wife said, with a smile. "I'll have the barbecue turkey sandwich." The young lady smiled back and thanked us for "not leaving like some people do when they see those stickers." We assured her we were there for the turkey. To prove it, we ate all the turkey we could, had lemon icebox pie for dessert, and didn't talk politics.

After our meal that evening, we drove around Greenville to see what there was to see. And what we saw -- check-cashing stores and abject trailer parks, and some of the hardest-used cars for sale on a very rundown lot -- told us the people there were hurting economically and deserved more than they were getting.

Now, I know that some from Alabama reading this may dismiss my comments as those of a lesser Neil Young, just another person Southern Man doesn't need around anyhow. But I've traveled enough to know that there are Greenvilles all over this country, including in my home state of Wisconsin. Having held town hall meetings in every one of Wisconsin's 72 counties each year for the past 12 years, I've heard repeatedly of the difficult struggles that so many working families are enduring in both urban and rural areas. And in this Greenville, the one in Alabama, I connected again to an American experience that isn't dictated by whether you live in a red state or a blue state.

The people of Alabama appear to be among the most generous and most unsung philanthropists in this country. What they give is unimaginable to many others and they give it time and again: They regularly give their turn at the American dream to someone else. And they give it simply because they're asked. So many people in Greenville don't seem to have basic healthcare coverage or promising job opportunities. Meanwhile, their children volunteer to risk their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan. I can only be humbled by their sacrifice.

But because I am a lawmaker and a student of history, I also know who has been asking them to give so much. And I can only wonder how many more generations of central Alabamians will say yes when the increasingly powerful Republican Party asks them to be concerned about homosexuality but not about the security of their own health, about abortion but not about the economic futures of their own children. As my wife and I drove through Greenville that night, I thought how fundamentally unfair this all is in order to support an increasingly radical conservative movement.

Now, some may think that Alabama and Wisconsin are the polar opposites of American politics. But in both states I've found that -- along with sharing a sincere appreciation of a good turkey dinner -- too many hardworking people are losing their battles for decent paying jobs and adequate healthcare. I'm tired of seeing the power-hungry persuade the hardworking people of this country that the only way to preserve important values is to vote against their own families' basic interests. I believe that the working people of both states have sacrificed for other people's agendas for too long. And I believe that any political party or political movement or political candidate who would consistently say this would be heard throughout America.

We need to go to the Greenvilles of every state, red and blue, and say, "Thank you. You've sacrificed long enough. Now it's your turn at the American dream."

- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Russ Feingold, Democratic senator from Wisconsin, will be sworn in for his third term on Jan. 4, 2005.

clip---(a response)

Feingold is a major target for every conservative talk show host in Wisconsin. But he continues to win. I think the reason why is that he comes across as genuine and really caring.

The message is clear. You've sacrificed enough for the powerful, now its time for them to sacrifice for you.

This should be repeated over and over.

Clip --- me

Amen to that!

Go Russ!! I knew there was a good reason I voted for him the first two times and I would have voted for him this time too if I'd still been in Wisconsin.

He's one of the very few non-millionaire members of the Senate and has more debt (when you include mortgages) than assets like most Americans.

Carol:

What a great story. I remember in 1998 when Feingold refused to accept any funds from the DNC or any pacts. I was outraged. He immediately fell behind his opponent by 10% points and I said well there goes another well meaning but stupid Democrat who just gave the Republicans a Senate seat b/c of his stubborness, principles. He went on to win that election like every other by a wide margin. Thankfully the voters of Wisconsin are sophisticated and no the real thing. In any red state his career would have been finished. I admire the Senator as one of the real guys/genuine and understand his message to southerners. As a fellow southerner I am ashamed to say there are just too many stupid voters to ever get this real message across. Note the frustrations and the Sept posts at our JK site reporting back from some of the poorest voters in the country in West Virginia who turned on us b/c of abortion. I am sorry to say these people are just too stupid to know the difference and deserve the bad govt they keep voting for. And this is from a a native southerner.

know the real thing.typo

"I am sorry to say these people are just too stupid to know the difference and deserve the bad govt they keep voting for."

Posted by: Ira | December 22, 2004 05:34 PM

Bullseye. It truly does come "right" down to that.

Like a famous fictional character from Greenbow, Alabama once said, "Stupid is as stupid does".

What does Georgie want for Christmas?
Bemson knows..
enjoy

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/benson/

Pamela

That wasn't Dick's comment - it was mine. I wrote that article.

I get the American Prospect newsletter every day. I would have liked to include Kuttner's material in the piece - probably didn't make the connection so glad that you are.

My son has a social security number too or I couldn't have claimed him on income tax. The objection to mandatory social security registration was one objection of many, not that I have but that some within the ACLU & the other citizen privacy group had.

I have not disagreed with your basic points today. I have really enjoyed this dialogue today even though I'm at work. I wish that Americans had had it in public, rather than after the fact & in a very limited sense, AFTER the bill has been passed.

If you ask most people on the street about a national identity card they may look at you like you're nuts. They probably won't have heard of it. No one at my workplace has - I just took an informal survey.

I'll bet the same is not true in the UK because it's been in every paper & on tv.

That continues to concern me.

NonnyO

I saw that primetime report.
Ashcroft wanted to get rid of not just kiddie porn but all porn by the end of last summer. There was an outcry from those people who make porn for hotel rooms where high-living Republicans stay when travelling so it didn't happen. There was a fascinating article on it in the Guardian & I did also seem to tv program you referenced (one of those few times I
watched something).

Just out of curiosity did anyone else watch the Kennedy Awards last night. I was truly stunned, and it brought one of the few smiles on my face in months to see the camera zoom in on Kerry 4-5 times. Maybe its just ac coincidence because Edward Kennedy was seated 2-3 rows behind him(Kennedy Awards), but it sure made me feel good to see Kerry again.

I'll bet the same is not true in the UK because it's been in every paper & on tv.
That continues to concern me.
Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 05:56 PM

Lack of mainstream media coverage about issues that affect all of us should rank up there in the top five things that concern ALL of us.... for me, it's #1, because without a plethora of news and views from all angles, we get fed propaganda... and, unfortunately, that's ALL we're getting now in mainstream media....

An uninformed electorate cannot really make an educated choice in her/his vote if we rarely or never hear the candidates speak, but only hear media spin about what the "journalists" think they heard the candidates say...

We likely haven't heard anything about national ID cards in mainstream media because likely the people who call themselves journalists haven't even read portions of those 3000 pages in the omnibus bill....... Why would they? They're busy spouting propaganda put out by the White House....

The adoption of a national identifier has been inevitable for some time. With the national hysteria over terrorism and homeland security, this is practically a fait accomplis.

The only real issue is how to provide safeguards against misuse and abuse, and this is where we need to be paying attention. Strict limits and controls on use need to be enacted, and there must be severe criminal penalties for misuse and abuse.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 06:00 PM

Sorry to say, DiAnne.... I'm 110% sure they will never get rid of porn or kiddie porn or anything resembling that.

If porn makes more money for Disney than their famous family friendly shows, what does that tell you??? Too much money in it to get rid of it.... It'll be a dirty little secret of corporations that make that crap, but they won't get rid of porn on moral or ethical or legal grounds for the simple reason that they value money more than morals....

The thing that bothers me about a national ID card is that little piece of magnetic tape on the back.

Will it contain information that ties into a national data base? You bet. Every time you go to the airport and swipe that card it will not only identify you but also record where you are and at what time.
Want to attend a political rally? Get your id card swiped and in goes information about what rally you attended, when and where. Want to attend a Bush rally -- gotta get your card swiped. What, you also go to Kerry rallies? Sorry, we don't like your kind here. Its bad enough that companies like double-click record every web site you visit. A system with that much information on your every move is easily abused. Can an attorney general who doesn't care much for Geneva conventions, be trusted with a national data bank on every citizen -- evryone, not just the known felons? Another terrorist event in this country and that's were we will be.

The other thing that's bothersome, even if the gov't can be trusted with that information is what someone could do by reading that magnetic strip. Presumable the info is all encripted. But if there are a large number of readers then whats to stop some kacker from finding his way into your personal information by spoofing the card reader?

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 05:56 PM

DiAnne

I did not realize that you wrote that, I thought that Dick had (there was no clarification that you wrote or did I miss that?).

I fully understand people's concerns about the national id card, however, it has been a neccessity for those with children to register their children for SS numbers at birth or soon after for sometime now.

Right or wrong, that's what it is and doing so gives parents access to claiming their chidren as dependents as well as many other benefits through the government, that I have outlined.

I simply wanted to point out to those who were as unaware of that fact, as they are about the national id card, that we do need to register our children for SS numbers at birth, although that was not a part of the original SS law.

Laws are constantly changing, morphing and some help us and others hurt us. Like all things, sometimes that which helps you can hurt you. So you (or the collective we) do whatever it is you can to make sure that your rights are not violated.

Not everyone feels compelled to stand up for their rights and that apathy is a sad statement on the state of this country.

Posted by: Bob Evans | December 22, 2004 06:08 PM

Well put Bob.

Will it contain information that ties into a national data base? You bet. Every time you go to the airport and swipe that card it will not only identify you but also record where you are and at what time.

Posted by: bob-in-co | December 22, 2004 06:26 PM

Oh my goodness Bob-in-co, do you think we will have to swipe it to enter a public restroom?

Will it contain information that ties into a national data base?
Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 06:33 PM

Pamela, you have got that one correct.
Especially since good old Poindexter is head of it. Remember him; another crooked Repub from the past.

Just heard on the news that Kerik resigned from his "real job" with Guliani. Boo hoo! He reasons he cited were 1. He needs time to defend himself 2.He needs more time to spend with his family. Which family would that be? The wife? or one the girlfriends?? These Repub hypocrites really are a hoot..

Oh my goodness Bob-in-co, do you think we will have to swipe it to enter a public restroom?

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 06:33 PM

You betcha...Info is needed for the national toilet paper security agency or NTPSA. That kind of tracking is necessary to detemine when terrorists are in the bathroom. They are having trouble with a color system as everything is brown..

Posted by: battlebob | December 22, 2004 06:40 PM

Battlebob,

I'm sorry but I, like Robert Kuttner recognize some good in this program.

If you have not read this please do and read it carefully. He makes some very good points that everyone should consider before getting up in arms about this.

Posted by: battlebob | December 22, 2004 06:44 PM

"national toilet paper security agency"
ROFLMAO!

That's swipe, not wipe.

One things for sure, they will be swiping it at high security stations like airports (else, why have a magnetic strip). So its not too far-fectched to say it will happen at the next level of security down, such as a building where the president is appearing. This isn't just a matter of showing a card with a picture on it.

do you think we will have to swipe it to enter a public restroom?

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 06:33 PM

And that can be a disaster. See my comment from 3:19 PM EST. Given those facts, I will have to swipe my card at, and enter, men's bathrooms.

Now that's really humiliating. Even though I know some men actually enjoy the sight of a woman in a men's room.

I read Kuttner's article but I don't trust the players. On face value, the information sounds reasonable. But how will it be really used.
Will the Repubs use it to try and segment areas based on finance, travel destinations?
What decisions will be made beyond security.
I do not think there are enough controls over the data distribution.
Data mining will be the most important useage and I am sure this administration will use the information in ways to solidify their power.

Actually, there was a lot of info prior to 911 to nail at least some and maybe prevent the terrorists. The intellegence organizations were flawed. I think the organizations will be just as flawed, just flawed differently.

Posted by: bob-in-co | December 22, 2004 06:53 PM

Here in CA we now have magnetic strips on our liscenses. They provide quick access I suppose to the databases that show whether you have license or criminal violations, among other things.

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 06:53 PM

Skinnylawyer,

Sorry to say but your situation does provide a unique situation not shared by all.

Here in CA we now have magnetic strips on our liscenses. They provide quick access I suppose to the databases that show whether you have license or criminal violations, among other things.

Posted by: Pamela | December 22, 2004 07:01 PM

They are used in a very limited way, and as you know despite the presence of Ahnuld Schwarzenegger, California is mostly in good hands. Laws concerning one's privacy are among the strictest in the nation.

That is not true of the federal government, however!

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 07:03 PM

Skinnylawyer,

Please do not give Arhuld so much creidt. He is one of them after all, give him time, he'll find ways to invade our privacy. He's just getting warmed up after all... don't forget he wants to change the constitution...

I suggest we all revert to the pre-technology days and go back to going about our business with out so mnay of these things that make life easier and on the other hand make it easier for people to snoop, including the government.

Or, we stand up for our rights and make sure that this national id is implemented properly.

I think we're missing the forest for the trees, or something. The issue is the violation of our civil rights and freedoms by the government, something they are already doing on many fronts. This started decades ago. When they first introduced national social security, they had to promise it would never even be used with income taxes. That's the kind of right to privacy people were concerned with then. Well that got trampled some time in the last 50 years or so. Then credit, then health care forms, then driver's licenses. You can't even get a phone or electricity without your social security number. I think we're kind of talking about putting the cat back in the bag with privacy and our social security numbers.

What I think we need to focus on is the power of the FBI and law enforcement and what they do with this new intelligence director. Follow the abuses of power and civil rights violations and fight those vigorously. Let them know they can't get away with it.

If we get sidetracked by something that is already pretty much out of control, we'll miss the real abuses already occuring right under our noses.

I'm sorry Pamela, but your steadfast support for the national ID system is something we must agree to disagree on.

Did I read the article you mentioned? Yes.

Do I agree with many of its ideas? Yes.

But this national ID scheme you are advocating leaves me wide open to rampant discrimination in employment and housing. I can't support it. I'll really have to move to Canada or Europe if this happens.

What we need to do is to look at the just-passed scheme - which standardizes different states' driver licenses - and make sure that only information regarding criminal records, driving records, and such will be readily available, as is the case with individual state driver licenses right now. Nothing more than that.

Again, the problem is, I just don't trust the federal government to get anything done right.

SkinnyLawyer, Maybe what you don't understand is that SSI#'s are what are used to track driving records and criminal records for driver's licenses. We're already doing it. In some ways, making it official might make people more aware of just how much information is being tracked with their SSI# and make them pay a little closer attention when we talk about civil rights violations.

Sandy,
I kind of agree with you.

This is from the Boston Globe article..

In most countries, the national ID card certifies your identity, age, and citizenship. That's it. You present the card, and you vote.

In America, millions of volunteer hours and hundreds of millions of dollars go into the needless process of registering voters -- time and money that could go toward political activism and education. So a national ID card, with proper safeguards, would make America more democratic, not less.

The second big reason involves immigration and labor rights. We try to control our borders, but millions of foreigners overstay tourist or student visas or slip in illegally, in order to work. They are able to take jobs because business wants them here to work for low wages and be conveniently frightened of exercising their labor rights.

Ok so far...
how about this..

A national ID card could help government pursue valuable record keeping, for instance to make sure that all children are immunized, and to pursue epidemiological research that is now difficult or impossible. A single government ID card would dramatically reduce underage drinking. Frail elderly people would cease having to renew drivers licenses solely for the purpose of ID. But libertarians are absolutely right to worry about potential and actual abuses. So the other side of the bargain is a much tougher set of laws protecting against improper invasions of privacy and snooping, both by government and by corporations.

There should be tougher penalties if an HMO sells confidential medical records. We need stronger measures against unwanted telemarketing, and against abuse of credit records.

The implication is there would be more data then what is on your drivers license. And with BushCo using the data, who knows what evils will be done.

One of my skills is data mining; the linking of seeminly unrelated data into useful information. I was going to apply for the system architect job for Homeland Security but decided that the use of the data would not be legal or moral.
This is Poindexter Country and he is as slimy as they come.

I'm sorry Pamela, but your steadfast support for the national ID system is something we must agree to disagree on.

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 07:29 PM

Skinnylawyer

I never said my support was steadfast I simply said I see some merits in this. Thank you.

Sandy, I do understand that even under the current system interstate exchange of certain information is possible, as you point out. Otherwise, why would the DMV insist on having your SSN in order to issue a driver's license?

You do have a very good point. Officializing what we're already doing it anyway makes people more aware.

And battlebob, I don't know about other states, but in California elderly drivers can exchange their driver licenses for a no-fee ID card. After age 70, every license renewal requires a road test. I think the pressure to renew the driver license is more with the car-happy lifestyle so prevalent in Los Angeles and many other American cities.

A note about my last post...

The problems with abuse is the victim is the last to know.
How would you know if your medical records were sold to an insureance company?
When you are denied a policy?

Or when would you know if your financial records are sold to a bank?
When you are denied a loan?

The problem here is the victims do not know if and when the government will screw them; until something happens and even then they may not know.
You don't know how your own personel information will be used against you.

Our drivers license contains physical and contact information only. A Social Security number is not on it because of security reasons. As it is the id of choice for check-cashing, clerks would be able to write it down.

Small Victory in WA state.... or maybe it's a large victory.... The 723 votes not previously counted will be able to be counted, and there are some other disputes in there and the repukes will be appealing (of course).

Did I miss something when I went to turn the chicken I was frying for my kitty?????

I flipped between ABC and CBS the first ten minures and everything was about the bombing in Iraq.... I flipped through the last ten minutes and there was nothing at all about the recount in WA state...

I checked the web sites, ABC has an AP news feed, and CBS had an article.... but I heard nothing on the broadcasts unless it was in the middle somewhere.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=353398

Wash. Court: New Ballots Can Be Counted
Washington Court Rules New Ballots Can Be Counted in Disputed Governor's Race
The Associated Press

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/07/politics/main659514.shtml
Wash. Dems Win Key Vote Ruling
OLYMPIA, Wash., Dec. 22, 2004

Another unrelated post, but this is yet another example of the media showing Christians crying victim.

Christmas carols banned at a NJ school district:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6745305/

You don't know how your own personel information will be used against you.

Posted by: battlebob | December 22, 2004 07:47 PM

I guess that is part of the point Sandy was trying to make.

There are pro's and con's in all of this. Like anything else in this life, as I pointed out to DiAnne earlier.

For every fear that people have about this national id card, there can also be many reasons that it could benefit people.

If you go to the hospital and you are away from home, imagine the posibility of a Dr being able to tap into a national database (that is secure) and get your medical history so as to perhaps save your life.

And imagine if we manage to keep the Social Security program in tact and the national id replaces the need to use your SS number for a means of identification.

Posted by: SkinnyLawyer | December 22, 2004 07:53 PM

Skinnylawyer, et al

Please see Sandy's post on LightUpTheDarkness on this subject "Let's Put the Holy Back in the Holidays" - http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp

And please all, feel free to chime on the lovely array of holiday wishes in the comments!

from an astrologer on astroworld:

We got a call from Time Magazine wanting to know if we would renew our subscription. (Hubby is a big magaizine subscriber - natal 3rd house Moon.) I told them no because they made Bush Man of the Year. I said this was a protest refusal. The subscription lady said she agreed with me and she got a good laugh out of the exchange. She was calling from Iowa.

Posted by: DiAnne | December 22, 2004 09:02 PM

Time and Newsweek are worth subscribing to these days.

If this is true, it is distressing - this is part of a Christmas card:

Remember when I told you that the recruiters came out to my hometown area and recruited people right after the death of two young men who died in Iraq.

Well from the rural area that the children come from to attend Moose Lake High School. They recruited 132 men and women.

I hate the fact that they are preying on mourning young men and women. To avenge their buddies deaths join the service and go to Iraq to fight the people who took their friends lives.

My graduation class had 70 students in it and a year later the biggest class had 95. Just to let you know the size of the school. I think they have about 50 - 60 to a graduation class now.

This is very distressing to me. Please pray for them.

Pamela

US News & World Report isn't worth the paper it's printed on anymore. There seems to have been a shift to the right. Don't know why. Actually, I would no more subscribe to a corporate rag then I would watch television habitually.

Can read on-line & would rather help someone who has no association with a conglomerate or Murdoch.

Oh my God!! That is really true? WA ballots from King County can be counted?
It'll be a hot time in the old town tonight! I'm headed to karaoke to celebrate!

Here is information on TIA - judge for yourself (about privacy concerns):

http://www.epic.org/privacy/profiling/tia/