An Updated Excellent Adventure!

Excellent, Sparrow.

Not comfortable as a public speaker, but not exactly shy, and definitely assertive, especially about a bad restaurant table next to the kitchen, I have become a mouthier broad over these last few years, and definitely in support of the change we needed and almost tasted.

Then we realized that the election of John Kerry would not have been the waving of any magic wand, and our work was just starting.

So together with our mothers' chutzpah and sense of do or die empowerment, many of us are now Sparrows in flight. Congrats!

Repost from end of last thread.........

More propoganda?

CREW Files Complaint Against Social Security Administration -- SSA Paid Fleischman-Hillard $1.8 million

Feb 23, 05 | Today, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) filed a complaint against the Social Security Administration (SSA) in the District Court for the District of Columbia for failing to produce documents pursuant to Freedom of Information Act Request (FOIA). CREW had asked SSA to produce any records relating to contracts SSA may have entered into with any public relations firms. // read more

http://www.citizensforethics.org/

Also, found this posted on Kos.......

Frank Luntz strategy report
by kos
Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 at 00:02:44 PST

This zipped file contains two PDF files -- scans of a 160-page briefing book by Frank Luntz on the lessons learned from 2004 as the GOP seeks to extend its winning streak in 2006.
Haven't read and processed it all yet. I thought I'd give you guys an early look at it. It's a virtual smogasboard for fans of language framing, and a great "preview of coming attractions".

Warning, it's an 8MB file, so it may take a while to download

http://www.dailykos.com

Posted by: nancyjane at February 23, 2005 10:56 AM

Trapped
by Bruce Springsteen

Seems like I'm caught up
in your trap
again
Seems like I'll be
wearing the same
old chains
Good will conquer
Evil
And the truth will
set me free
And I know some
day I will find
the key
I know
somewhere I will
find the key
Seems like I've
been playing your
game way too long
Seems the game
I've played has
made you strong
When the game is
over
I won't walk out the
loser
I know I'll walk
out of here again
I know someday
I'll walk out of
here again

Well now I'm
Trapped
OOh yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah
Trapped

Seems like I've
been sleeping in
your bed too
long
Seems like you've
been meaning to
do me harm
But I'll teach my
eyes to see
Beyond these
walls in front of
me
Someday I'll walk
out of here again
Someday I'll walk
out of here again

Trapped
OOh yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah

Seems like I've
been playing your
game way too long
Seems the game
I've played has
made you strong

Trapped
OOh yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah
Trapped
OOh Yeah

http://postgazette.com/robrogers/default.asp?id=0

My morning laugh. If the library arrow works, you will find some cartoons relate locally, but I just had to put this one up.

That's great news, Captain Sparrow! It does feel good to reach people in an offline setting.

This reminds me of a focus group I was involved in a couple weeks ago. One of our US senators was in town to get some local feedback, and I was lucky enough to be one of the 20 or so people in attendance. I mentioned the DCP twice during this meeting, once during my introduction and later when the senator asked me to talk more about organizing.

After the meeting one person even approached me to make sure she had the correct url. It did feel good to see the excitement that doesn't always come through in the online environment.

Sorry to keep harping on Rick Santorum, but my judgment is correct: Pa has a large number of elderly voters 16% and I truly think that SS reform is his achilles heal. While I am not up there I strongly urge that our Pa bloggers hound Santorum the next 19 months to his events with pointed questions and signs linking him to Bush and his disastrous Social Security dismantling. Now is the time to build the road to his defeat.

Appeal to Young on Pension Plan Gets the Attention of Their Elders
By ROBIN TONER

Published: February 23, 2005

A Tough Sell

"HESTER, Pa., Feb. 22 - Almost no one is a more outspoken advocate of President Bush's Social Security plan than Senator Rick Santorum, the third-ranking Republican in the Senate leadership, who is campaigning across his state this week, trying to get young people to focus on their retirement.

Mr. Santorum argued, again and again, that the debate over Mr. Bush's plan for private accounts was really about young people's futures, because their benefits were at risk and because Mr. Bush had repeatedly promised that he would make no changes affecting Americans over 55.

This is a key element of the Republican strategy, creating an energized and mobilized younger generation fighting for its piece of an ownership society.

But there is a problem with that approach: retirees and those near retirement, a legendary political force, refuse to be shut out of the debate. At Widener University in Chester on Tuesday afternoon, people over 50 occupied perhaps half the seats at a forum held by Mr. Santorum and asked many of the questions - most of them negative.

At one point, Mr. Santorum looked out at the raised hands and said somewhat plaintively: "I'm seeing a lot of older hands. I'm not seeing any younger hands."

And still they kept coming, the "older hands," with questions that were not really questions.

As both parties take stock of the grass roots on Social Security during this Congressional recess, Pennsylvania underscores the political challenge for Republicans. It is a state with a disproportionate number of older Americans; 15.6 percent of the population was over 65 in the 2000 census, a number exceeded only by Florida.

Social Security has been an important subject here in the past, and Mr. Bush's plan to overhaul it by including private accounts is "a tough issue," said G. Terry Madonna, a professor of public policy at Franklin and Marshall College.

Mr. Santorum is up for re-election in 2006, and a recent poll suggests that he could face an extremely competitive race. He acknowledged somewhat ruefully on Tuesday afternoon that "we'd suffer no electoral consequences for doing nothing" on Social Security.

But Mr. Santorum, who is chairman of the Senate Republican Conference and a favorite of conservatives nationally, was plowing ahead this week with 10 public forums, 7 of them on college campuses. That translates into a far more freewheeling atmosphere than, say, one of Mr. Bush's tightly controlled forums on Social Security.

At Drexel University, for example, Mr. Santorum was greeted by protesters, was heckled during his speech by people declaring their loyalty to Lyndon LaRouche, and was asked several questions by young people on issues that had little to do with Social Security, including same-sex marriage and the global fight against AIDS.

He doggedly made his way through a slide show that highlighted the demographic and financial pressures on Social Security, creating a "perfect storm" of declining revenues and rising costs that, he argued, would inexorably lead to major cuts in benefits or tax increases for Americans 30 and under unless something major was done.

Mr. Santorum did get some support from his audiences on Tuesday. At Widener, Katherine Dombrowski, a 21-year-old junior, said she already had an individual retirement account and was "completely in support" of the idea of privatizing Social Security. "I don't understand what everybody has against the idea of taking care of yourselves," Ms. Dombrowski said to a smattering of applause.

And after the event, several students approached Mr. Santorum, thanked him and expressed their approval.

Still, Democrats like Representative Allyson Y. Schwartz, a freshman from the Philadelphia suburbs, say the opposition to the president's plan is intense at the grass-roots level. And the mood of the audience at a meeting Ms. Schwartz held on Monday, at the Jewish Community Center-Klein Branch in Northeast Philadelphia, certainly reflected it."

Hey Ira-I see you found the beat-santorum blog.
It appears that there are several sites with the same purpose........

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/stopsantorum/
http://www.replacericksantorum.info/
http://www.outsantorum.org/
http://www.dumprick.com/
http://www.santorumwatch.org/

Harris County, Houston's executive director of our democratic party just emailed me to let me know that they are now aware of our blog site and plan on spreading the word of our efforts to our members . Maybe its my effort to have a southern strategy. Perhaps we need to start contacting directors in Atlanta, New Orleans, Little rock etc and let them know They Only Look Dead (in the south) but we are rebuilding and plan on storming back in 2006.

nacyjane did you read the Santorum story and how do you feel about hounding Santorum regarding Social Security, painting him in a corner that he will never get out of with senior citizens. Seniors are our key to a rebirth as a party, and us boomers who will get screwed by Bush's SS. proposals.,

Ira-Seems his town hall meetings with constituents aren't going very well huh??!! Atrios has a link on his site to video of some young rethugs chanting "hey hey ho ho social security has got to go". A rare moment of truth. The DNC, moveon, AARP should use that video in an ad. Also, Sen.mandoglove has a poll on his site about SS.....

"Do you support the creation of voluntary Personal Retirement Accounts as a part of Social Security reform?" yes, no.

http://santorum.senate.gov/public/

By all means DCP'ers-let the man know what you think.

Earlier I posted a link to dailykos about luntz's playbook. The wonderful folks at http://www.thinkprogress.org/ are picking it apart so you don't have to. Highly recommend this.

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/senate_bio.cfm?districtnumber=22

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/senate_bio.cfm?districtnumber=35

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/senate_bio.cfm?districtnumber=45

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/senate_bio.cfm?districtnumber=11

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/member_information/senate_bio.cfm?districtnumber=1

Members of the Pa. State Senate who are going to be very valuable as the S.S. talk and the Santorum train chugs through the state. State officials like these and others should be relied on to counter the Santorum message. Engaging with Pa. voters regarding S.S. is not center stage right now, and it should be. In order to make S.S. a referendum on Santorums bid for re-election, it is critical that we contact state government and request that they beging laying a strong groundwork at the local level.

Bob Casey Jr. has not indicated he will run. Emily's List is thinking of pushing for Barbara Hafer. T.J. Rooney is on the fence. Joe Heoffel may yet be heard from again. We are still wading around in the dangerous waters of a bitter primary, and Santorum is out campaigning.

I'm writing to state reps and I'm letting them know that if we are going to unseat little chimp wanna be, we can't afford to wait to see who will be leading the charge.

Bush is so predictable...

With a Hush and a Whisper, Bush Drops Town Hall Meeting with Germans

During his trip to Germany on Wednesday, the main highlight of George W. Bush's trip was meant to be a "town hall"-style meeting with average Germans. But with the German government unwilling to permit a scripted event with questions approved in advance, the White House has quietly put the event on ice. Was Bush afraid the event might focus on prickly questions about Iraq and Iran rather than the rosy future he's been touting in Europe this week?

snip~~ the White House got cold feet. Bush's strategists felt an uncontrolled encounter with the German public would be too unpredictable.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,druck-343281,00.html

The win-at-all-costs president
Secret tapes reveal George Bush's combative, even arrogant heart

ANALYSIS
By Howard Fineman
MSNBC contributor
Updated: 11:16 a.m. ET Feb. 23, 2005

WASHINGTON - Here are two stories about young “Georgie” Bush that you may not have heard, but which are worth recounting as he travels the globe as a world leader.

As a boy in Maine, he was the oldest of many cousins, and would set the rules for summer games at the family compound. “If he was losing he’d change the rules – or take the ball and leave,” one cousin told me. Then there was the time when, as a new kid, just up from Texas at his prep school Andover, Bush was tripped and mocked early in an intramural soccer match. He waited for a chance to exact revenge – then blindsided his foe so viciously he nearly broke the boy’s ankle. “He spent that match angling to take me out,” said the Andover alum, now a successful businessman. “And he did.”

I was reminded of these adolescent tales by the recent disclosure of Doug Wead’s surreptitious tapes of conversations with George W. Bush in the late 1990s, when Dubya was preparing to run for the Republican nomination. I was spending a lot of time in Austin back then, trying to get a fix on the then-governor of Texas. The tapes are confirmation – the clearest and best so far – of the sense I got of him at the time: that, far from being the dim-bulb tool of Karl Rove’s genius, Bush was a shrewd, prickly, win-at-all-costs guy who never should have been underestimated – as he was, for a decade – by the tottering Eastern power structure that dismissed him as a foolish, errant son of privilege.

I recommend the Wead tapes to Jacques Chirac and Harry Reid – not to mention the mullahs in Iran.

Predictably, commentators poring over this Rosetta Stone have focused on the hieroglyphics about drug use in the Sixties (Bush is a little more candid in private than he was in public) and his careful (but not too public) wooing of evangelicals.

Far more revealing are the glimpses into the combative, even arrogant heart of Bush’s character – and that of the Bush Clan. These are people expert at boarding-school blasé, at hiding a seething need to win behind a veil of bumbling nonchalance.

At the time of the tapes, the governor of Texas was worried, almost obsessed, by the threat posed to his chances by a guy far richer and ideologically-vetted than he: Steve Forbes. A key to Bush’s strategy was to scare others out of the Republican nomination race by amassing a horde of contributions and endorsements, and by drying up those resources for the other candidates. The idea was to render the race a fait accompli before it even started.

It was easy to muscle the hapless Dan Quayle. As Poppy Bush went around quietly soliciting contributions for his son, the elder Bush let it be known that the Family would track gifts to other candidates, including Quayle. The former vice president had little chance in any case, but the Bushes were not taking chances. “They stepped on his air hose,” a Quayle advisor later told me.

But there was no stepping on Forbes. The guy had untold millions of dollars of his own, a geeky fearlessness that make him oblivious to threats and close, deep ties to the libertarian wing of the conservative movement in the GOP. Forbes dad made life miserable for Bob Dole in the ’96 Republican race, and Bush was worried that he might well do the same to him in the year 2000.

Bush’s response? To Wead – who might pass word along to Forbes – Bush threatened to take his ball and go home, then wait for the moment of payback. Were Forbes to win the GOP nomination by attacking him too hard, Bush told Wead, he could forget any support from the Bush family, including from his brother Jeb, the governor of Florida. Forbes “can forget Texas,” Bush tells Wead. “And he can forget Florida. And I will sit on my hands.” In other words, Bush would rather see the Democrats win the White House than a Republican who humiliated him by defeating him in the nomination race.

While he fretted that Forbes might play too rough, it was of course okay for Bush himself to do so. Taking the measure of Al Gore in the summer of 2000, demonizing him as “pathologically a liar,” Bush was getting an angle on his foe – and cited family tradition. In 1988, then Vice-President George H.W. Bush ran a campaign that used cultural “wedge” issues to savage the candidacy of Democrat Michael Dukakis. “I may have to get a little rough for a while,” Bush the Younger tells Wead. “But that is what the old man had to do with Dukakis, remember?” Of course he remembered: Dubya and Wead had worked together on that campaign.

But the key words are “had to do.” No Bush wants to play rough, of course. But to win – or at least maintain their dignity and pride – they have to.

http://santorum.senate.gov/public/

By all means DCP'ers-let the man know what you think.
Posted by: nancyjane at February 23, 2005 01:30 PM

Here's how responses are going to Santorum's poll:

194 total votes
Yes, Social Security should be reformed to include Personal Retirement Accounts for individuals.:
28.9%

No, Social Security should not be reformed to include Personal Retirement Accounts for individuals.:
71.1%

202 votes
Yes 28.2%
No 71.8%

We're gaining!
http://santorum.senate.gov/public/

Posted by: Marc Trager at February 23, 2005 01:59 PM

Well, kudos to Howard Fineman & Newsweek!

~~ and remember this from the campaign? Bush, in his own words / vindictive and arrogant Bush:

In an indication of the acrimony ahead, Mr Bush was quoted yesterday as having told a private lunch of supporters: "'I'm going to be real positive while I keep my foot on John Kerry's throat."

Bush aims for Kerry's throat as rival wins final TV debate
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/15/wus15.xml

On to victory,

Gee, you got it all!

That article is the exact reflection of what WE, NORMAL PEOPLE IN EUROPE (just like you) think... But it cannot fit into the official agenda.
As I posted on the previous thread, Bush was the one who created A European public opinion...against him, but he did it.
Wether we are called Peter, Pietro, Pedro, Pierre, Pietr...we react the same, we have the same moral conscience, and Bush's policies get us very itchy, and on the watch...
You may fell lonely in the States, but we know what is going on, and we are Blue. Big deal, you may tell me, you're stuck in the mess. The problem is we are , were, will opposing Bush, BUT YOUR MEDIA DON'T REPORT IT.
That's the problem.
We can oppose, protest...The big Murdoch machine doesn't report.
That won't change us, we will go on. I think that in the present days, we are, maybe, the best example of democracy.
King of Jordan on TV (I'm listening and speed writing.) This is France 2 Channel, I follow the interview.
-Syria? They have to respect the decision of UN and of international rights.
- Charm el Cheik Summit (he attended). I am optimistic.The Israelis and the Palestinians really want to go on.
- Reality nowadays? There is an advance. I
I'm optimistic about it. (Buh?)
- Role of France? They are for peace, and understand perfectly the problem, the Europeans are much closer to us than the Americans.
I have a link I wanted to post, but it vanished. I shall post it later.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at February 23, 2005 01:51 PM

:-) Yes, Dumbya is SO totally predictable. Without any knowledge of history, he doesn't realize Europeans have gone through dictators and tyrants before, and they know how to ask savvy questions he can't possibly answer coherently in an open forum... and unscripted...! He would have been "outed" as the monster he is what with illegally invading Iraq, approval of torture and abuses at prison camps, and his sights set on world domination per PNAC, among other things. Europeans are a helluva lot smarter than half of this country!!!

The chickenhawk chickened out!!! Priceless!!!

Posted by: Marc Trager at February 23, 2005 01:59 PM

Great article Marc!!! Thanks!!! :-)

Get your anti-bush goodies here...

http://www.cafepress.com/beatbushgear/

The NEW GERMANY can recognize a nazi when they see him...I bet georgie was peeing himself thinking he might have to take questions from the NEW GERMANS....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA...Now if we can only get them to arrest and PROSECUTE him.

~~Andree, What a headline!!!
Now THIS is news coverage!
:)

GERMAN PAPERS

Europeans Ask: Is Bush a Wolf in a Granny's Suit?
Bush speaks in Brussels. How much is just empty verbiage?

US President George W. Bush's goodwill spin through Europe garners all the news with commentators searching behind the platitudes for girth. How much of what this president -- known for his knack for hyperbole -- says will translate into deeds? And what of the looming crises in Iran, Iraq and over the EU's desire to lift its Chinese weapons embargo?

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe famously said, "When ideas fail, words come in very handy." The iconic, albeit very dead German writer would have had a field day in Brussels on Monday, where US President George W. Bush delivered his first speech abroad since his second term began. The speech, billed as a chance to address Europe and start mending ties broken over the Iraq war and other policy conflicts took place in an 18th century bourgeois salon in front of a hand-picked crowd of 300-pro Bush supporters. It was laced with grand verbiage, but not with new ideas. By far, the president's favorite word of the night was "freedom," although "liberty" also got its fair play. Bush stood before the crowd and acted almost blissfully ignorant of the depth of Europe's frustration with him and his first administration. At one point, he went so far as to say that "no power on Earth will ever divide" Europe and America.

snip~~
By far, the testiest commentary of the day comes from the Berliner Zeitung, which opts for the headline, "The Emperor Makes a Visit." Essentially, the paper says: Beware. Bush may look like darling old grandma on the outside, but underneath, there's a wolf lurking. "The president's friendly tone doesn't change the fact that this is the same warlord with imperial claims as before," writes the paper. "This is a man who in his re-election sees vindication and acceptance for his belief that violence is often needed to bring freedom and democracy to the world. It is also a man who in addition to having a mandate from voters sees himself as doing God's work." The paper attacks all the security measures needed to make Bush's trip possible -- the entire city of Mainz will virtually stop functioning during the hours Bush is there. "The fact that whole cities and regions have to be turned upside down for him does not exactly fit in with the Message of the Redeemor," he wants to bring, says the paper. "But that is the way emperors travel." The paper doesn't see the new Bush as a true reflection of change, but just proof of America's ability to adapt itself to suit its own needs. "At the moment, the EU seems useful to Bush," it writes. "The world power has determined that even its mighty military is not enough to turn an underdeveloped country like Iraq into the 'youngest democracy in the world.'"

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,343107,00.html

Great interview with Mark Crispin Miller on buzzflash about gannon/gucket/& the silent media...........

snip....
This is the animus that drives the Bushevik movement--more than greed, more than oil, more than imperialism. The movement is, ultimately, pathological. Which explains its compulsive hatefulness. Every time the Bushevik vents his spleen against "the liberals," he's actually referring to himself. "The liberals," he insists, are lying, bitter diehards, who would do anything to stay in power; they steal elections; they are "a coalition of the wild-eyed"; and on it goes forever. If the movement weren't relentlessly projective, it would just disappear. They have to stay on the attack against the demon, which they can never finally kill, because that demon is inside them.

snip....
If the Gannon/Guckert affair--which touches upon so many of the threats that the Bush White House poses to America and its utter moral corruption--doesn't force the mainstream press to forsake corporate profit concerns and fear of getting Karl Rove upset, what would?

That's the question we keep asking ourselves, isn't it? It assumes that they can get fed up, that there will be the straw that breaks the camel's back. That may not be the proper way to think about it. They may be so corrupt and so deluded that they simply cannot see what's right before their eyes. In which case we will have to find some way to force the story out. In any case, it's up to us, the people, to take care of this mess, isn't it? The Framers saw the press as crucial to American democracy, but it is still the people who make all the difference ultimately. What we may need to do is reconceive "the press" so that it includes the blogosphere, books, independent documentaries. Until we start to manage thorough media reform, we're on our own.

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/02/int05009.html

That won't change us, we will go on. I think that in the present days, we are, maybe, the best example of democracy.
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 23, 2005 02:51 PM

Yes, Andrée, Europe is now the best example of democracy in the world. The US has devolved down to a fascist state, and after the next presidential election is the only time we might have to correct the mistake of slightly more than half of this nation's voters (if the election wasn't stolen, as we believe it was in 2000 and 2004). Those of us who are aware of what's going on in this nation are only hoping European leaders can have the patience to wait it out until our next presidential election... and hopefully we can get a no-nonsense, common-sense person elected to the presidency, and one who can be a diplomat with our friends overseas, too.

IMHO, people in Europe have studied history and have learned from the past what not to do to successfully run a democracy, or a democratic republic.... and from what I am able to read, each country takes care of all its' citizens with medical care and social security in old age... etc. The US should be so lucky as to advance as far as Europe without all this intervening nonsense our senators and representatives shove through Congress as legislation that, so far, only makes medical, pharmaceutical, and insurance corporations more wealthy while poor people still don't have a chance. I doubt I'll see the changes needed in my lifetime, but it would be nice to advance as far as Europe in taking care of all the people, doing what's best for all the people....

~and don't miss this one! :)

Bush Arrives in Germany, KFC Closes

Bush is here. The US president's seven hour German stopover is being treated with all the pomp of a royal wedding. His visit has forced the shutdown of large parts of Mainz, causing economic hardship for many businesses. Is it worth it? Plus, we offer tips on alternative venues for future Bush visits.

Where will the President get his KFC?
US President George W. Bush arrives in Germany to great fanfare. Too bad he won't be able to find any fried chicken!
Breaking news of the day: It's getting hard to find American fast food in Mainz on Wednesday. In fact, the entire city center has been shut down, including the fast food chains, due to security precautions for the visit of US President George W. Bush. The left-leaning German newspaper Die Tageszeitung reports that not only Kentucy Fried Chicken, but also the neighboring McDonald's have shut their doors. No worries, though. The presidential couple won't go hungry in the Old World. In fact, their menu will include: pike, crawfish, lamb, vanilla crème and baked apples, accompanied by German red and white wines. Who knows? First Lady Laura Bush, who we hear is still looking for a White House chef, may acquire a taste for German cooking.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,343310,00.html

Nonny darling,

Sorry I couldn't answer you directly, but I've been quite busy.
Yes, we have history, yes we made all the mistakes, from killing all the Protestants in the XVIth century, to invading, being invaded..;and living upon a bomb matress that will take 7 centuries, I repeat: 7 CENTURIES to be removed.
How do you feel after that? "Plus jamais ça" = never again. That was in 1918. It was the big turn in our moral conscience. WWII only equaled to putting our ideas into facts.
We are still there in the way we built Europe.
NEVER AGAIN.

I feel so lonely for being the only foreign voice on thid blog, I miss Vokoban (Germany) and Scotsman(Scot-English)...and many others, but I say to myself, don't forget "Lafayette, nous voilà" and I go on, because you have to prevail!

Former post:

Thank you George for uniting...Europeans!

I came across a very interesting article in Libération this morning, and I'm going to translate some excerpts, or at least try...

GEORGE W BUSH, GODFATHER OF EUROPE, IN SPITE OF HIMSELF.

To get rooted, the identity feeling needs many factors at the same time: the perception of common interests, the pursue of collective ambitions, at last, some strong opponents or at least some vigorous foils. EU is starting at last to fulfill all those conditions.
....
Follows the description of Bush I first political game:
- Acting as Commander in Chief of the western world
- Wanting Europe to take orders from the White House
- Decision to break Europe in the new and the old one, who refused to obey
- Results far from the ones expected
- GB, Spain, Italy following, France, Germany, Belgium resisting
....
and miracle, a European public opinion sprung, massively resistant. What the European counsellors of the heads of states were never able to do, George Bush was able to make it: the citizens of continental Europe and a great part of the Britons, all the citizens rejected the American choice and method. George W Bush gave birth to a European public opinion.
....
George Bush I denied Europe, tried to break it and treated it as a declining continent.
Other technique:
George Bush II rediscovers Europe, pays it a salute and foresees as treating it as a partner.
....
The first Bush gave birth to a European public opinion, the second Bush encourages Europe to behave as a self-governing actor, as if a vitual power had slowly turned in a real power.
So there we are, still united against Bush, because we know that under the smiles (grins) and polished manners nothing changed. He appeared as if momma had been teaching him lessons before he came visiting his european cousins: behave yourself George, be a good boy, say hello to uncle Jacques and uncle Gerhart, do not yell at them and leave your weapon toys at home...
The feeling in the press is quite mixed. Everyone acted politely, but what took place behing the scene?
Future will tell.

~~too long to post in its entirety, but this is a MUST read!


When Democracy Failed - 2005
The Warnings of History

by Thom Hartmann Published February 22, 2005 by CommonDreams.org

This weekend - February 27th - is the 72nd anniversary, but the corporate media most likely won't cover it. The generation that experienced this history firsthand is now largely dead, and only a few of us dare hear their ghosts.

It started when the government, in the midst of an economic crisis, received reports of an imminent terrorist attack. A foreign ideologue had launched feeble attacks on a few famous buildings, but the media largely ignored his relatively small efforts. The intelligence services knew, however, that the odds were he would eventually succeed. (Historians are still arguing whether or not rogue elements in the intelligence service helped the terrorist. Some, like Sefton Delmer - a London Daily Express reporter on the scene - say they certainly did not, while others, like William Shirer, suggest they did.)

But the warnings of investigators were ignored at the highest levels, in part because the government was distracted; the man who claimed to be the nation's leader had not been elected by a majority vote and the majority of citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted.

He was a simpleton, some said, a cartoon character of a man who saw things in black-and-white terms and didn't have the intellect to understand the subtleties of running a nation in a complex and internationalist world.

His coarse use of language - reflecting his political roots in a southernmost state - and his simplistic and often-inflammatory nationalistic rhetoric offended the aristocrats, foreign leaders, and the well-educated elite in the government and media. And, as a young man, he'd joined a secret society with an occult-sounding name and bizarre initiation rituals that involved skulls and human bones.

Nonetheless, he knew the terrorist was going to strike (although he didn't know where or when), and he had already considered his response. When an aide brought him word that the nation's most prestigious building was ablaze, he verified it was the terrorist who had struck and then rushed to the scene and called a press conference.

"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history," he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. "This fire," he said, his voice trembling with emotion, "is the beginning." He used the occasion - "a sign from God," he called it - to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their evil deeds in their religion.
continue~~
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

on.to. victory--

posted at 3:50 p.m.

wow.

nuff said.

AP is reporting that European civilians are a lot more cynical about Bush's outreach than are their leaders:

Europeans Wary of Bush's Charm Offensive
February 23, 2005 3:09 PM EST
By JOJI SAKURAI, Associated Press Writer

ROME - The words may have been more conciliatory, but many Europeans sensed the swagger was still there. President Bush's outreach efforts to European leaders this week appear to have gone a way toward establishing an official thaw, but citizens around the continent remain deeply resistant to giving in to any charm offensive from a man they view as dangerous and irresponsible.

Above all, Europeans balk at what they see as the underlying message coming through all the sweet talk from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the president: America intends to be the world's policeman and expects Europe's help in toppling tyranny around the globe.

"We Don't Need No Cowboy," read one sign at a protest in Mainz, Germany, where Bush warmly shook hands Wednesday with one of the fiercest critics of the Iraq war, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder.
[SNIP]

Even among those who believe Bush, many suspect he is naive and suffers from the same type of hubris that led to disaster in European empires from ancient Rome to that of Napoleon Bonaparte.

MORE:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050223/ap_on_re_eu/europe_still_against_bush_2

Bob,

This is exactly what I said upthread. We don't believe a word out of what Bush say. There was Bush I, we've been helped Bush II, but the guy didn't change. As I already said, it's the same bottle, they only changed the label.
The only problem is we didn't change, and we'll keep being the thorn in Bush's boot...we remember and can't be fooled.
We may not have the big American armada, but is it the right weapon nowadays, or is it real diplomacy?
J'attends votre réponse cher ami.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at February 23, 2005 03:50 PM

word up.

Want to make your opinion about Bush in Europe?
Read and laugh.

http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/001176.php

Andrée,

Yes, I was thinking of you when I saw that story, and how it matched what you have been saying exactly.

I am waiting to see what information leaks out about what Bush is threatening/promising in order to gain even such modest cooperation from European leaders. Especially when such huge differences remain on a host of issues.

We enjoy your reports, and being able to say, "We heard it from Andrée first."

on.to.victory....

Re: The Warnings of History

Stunning, absolutely stunning.

I am going to damage some relationships over this, but I am sending it out to all the Bu$h supporters I know, including family members.

How far we have come in 72 years, and yet, how little has been learned.

~tutter, casey, marc & everyone~~

I have now read & read this again, 3 times....and have also sent it out to many fence-sitting repubs and dems whom I know...
this is the most powerful thing I have read in a long time...kudos to Thom Hartmann, send this out, far & wide....
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

Bob,

My problem is I'm the only foreigner here, and when I quote a paper or a TV program, you don't know them. On top I'm French and I might sound awfully anti-Bush.
But no, I'm just the reflection of the European PEOPLE at large.
George came to get large press articles about how well he did in Europe. This is just PR aimed at the American public.
He didn't get A thing. He tried to behave properly, but we still disagree on the main topics because we don't have the same conception of democracy. He is acting as we did in the XIXth century, we know it doesn't work, and paid for it.
Unfortunately that doesn't fit in the neocon srtategy.
You said "con"? Over here it means a$$hole.
Isn't that appropriate?

Sometimes it's so easy to get entrenched in specific issues that I miss the big picture. Then when it presents itself things start to make sense. Hartmann's article does this for me. Thanks for post it on.to.victory (.)

Andrée,

The link you posted above (4:40 PM) with the humorous note also has more. If you scroll down, they offer one explanation for the "new" European leaders' willingness to cooperate with Bush, even a little:

http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/001176.php

Bob,

The only trouble about the new comers in Europe is that France and Germany are holding the strings of the purse: we are the 2 big major donors.
We aleady had a problem with Poland, they understood very quickly that if they wanted to play Bush's game it was at ther own risk.
Their future and life improving depend upon us, not upon Americans...and there is a long way to go. It's still 19th century in many fields over there. We accepted to pay for it, as long as they play the game to fullfill the EU rules about work, workers rights, salaries, legislation, medical care, and so, and so...

Do you think George would be ready to pay for it?
He doesn't even have the money for you.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at February 23, 2005 03:50 PM

The parallels between Nazi German and America under BushCo are not lost on those of us who are aware of history and can connect the dots. The similarities to WWII Germany, Hitler, and the BushCo regime give me the willies, to put it mildly... the goosebumps on my arms have goosebumps when reading such things. Hartman wrote a significant piece, and it deserves to be read widely! I'm sending it to everyone I know.... Thanks for posting the link!!!

Posted by: Bob Evans at February 23, 2005 04:08 PM

Under no circumstances whatsoever should any of the European leaders believe a single word that comes out of BushCo's lying mouth, now or in the future. Dumbya will only use any hint of compromise to his wishes as a sign that they approve of him and what he's doing in Iraq, and what he seems to be threatening to do to other countries... and he could easily think he can bully and bribe his way to trying to get European leaders to be his puppets, like the puppet democracy he set up in Iraq, for which he seems to think he should receive kudos (NOT!). He can lie to the people of this country and get by with those lies with half of this nation, but I think the leaders and the people of other nations know it's all a con game and will treat his visit with the attention it deserves... he visited, he left, now European leaders can go back to ignoring him and his cronies, and wait it out until our next election.... by which time the progressive half of this nation will be hoping the other half has awakened from their kool-aid stupor and have regained some of their senses... (We hope!).

Thanks to Andrée, we have a window to the thinking of the general populace in Europe....! We owe her a huge debt of gratitude for being our friend and keeping us informed....

Posted by: Andrée - France at February 23, 2005 04:28 PM

George's handlers keep him and Laura in a big bubble. They forgot to tell him he is not really the king. So Laura feels "hurt" by the chilly reception in Europe, and George looks like a deer caught in the headlights at one turn, and a chicken being pecked at another. It's even worth watching CNN to see it. Worth a chuckle.

You cannot send a child to do a man's job. George never learned how to "play nice with others", and he is clearly out of his league when trying to appear cooperative in Europe. Reverts back to his bullying behavior and "shoulds" all over people.

Like my momma always used to say, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

Andrée,

He seems to be applying to Europe the same "strategery" he applies to everything: divide and conquer. At least the European public isn't buying it; you see so clearly how unhappy we all are over here.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at February 23, 2005 03:50 PM

Absolutely CHILLING.

Just had to post this article. Once more the Bushes have profited from one of their own wars- this time it's Uncle Bucky Bush.

ompany's Work in Iraq Profited Bush's Uncle

Wed Feb 23, 7:55 AM ET

Top Stories - Los Angeles Times

By Walter F. Roche Jr. Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — The Iraq (news - web sites) war helped bring record earnings to St. Louis-based defense contractor Engineered Support Systems Inc., and new financial data show that the firm's war-related profits have trickled down to a familiar family name — Bush.

•

·

William H.T. "Bucky" Bush, uncle of the president and youngest brother of former President George H.W. Bush, cashed in ESSI stock options last month with a net value of nearly half a million dollars.

"Uncle Bucky," as he is known to the president, is on the board of the company, which supplies armor and other materials to U.S. troops. The company's stock prices have soared to record heights since before the invasion, benefiting in part from contracts to rapidly refit fleets of military vehicles with extra armor.

William Bush exercised options on 8,438 shares of company stock Jan. 18, according to reports filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (news - web sites). He acknowledged in an interview that the transaction was worth about $450,000.

In an earnings report issued Tuesday, the firm disclosed that net earnings for the first quarter ending Jan. 31 reached a record $20.6 million, while quarterly revenue hit $233.5 million, up 20% from a year ago. As a result, the company boosted its projected annual revenue to between $990 million and $1 billion.

William Bush, 66, a onetime St. Louis bank executive and head of an investment firm, joined the board in 2000, eight months before his nephew won the White House.

The president's uncle said in an interview that he never used his family connections to help the company win contracts.

"I don't make any calls to the 202 area code," he said, referring to the long-distance dialing code for Washington.

He also said he sought legal advice before accepting appointment to the ESSI board to be certain there would be no problems.

Dan Kreher, vice president of industrial relations for ESSI, said Bush was one of several people added to the company board about five years ago, and that he was selected because he had "a long history of involvement in the local business community. We've known him for a long time."

"Having a Bush doesn't hurt," said Kreher, who acknowledged that the company was routinely engaged in Washington lobbying efforts. But, he said, Democrats, including a party fundraiser, also serve on the panel.

"It certainly doesn't hurt to have people who know who to talk to," Kreher said, adding that the president's uncle played no role in winning the firm's government contracts.

Some of the firm's Defense Department work has included no-bid, sole-source contracts, including a $48.8-million deal to refurbish military trailers.

Other Iraq-related contracts won by the firm include an $18-million pact awarded early last year under which a Maryland-based subsidiary was picked to provide communications support services to the Coalition Provisional Authority.

In March 2003, in announcing the U.S. Army's purchase of $19-million worth of its protective shelters for chemical and biological weapons, then-ESSI Chairman and Chief Executive Michael Shanahan stated: "The potential threat of our troops facing a chemical or biological attack during the current conflict in Iraq remains very real."

Other company contracts have raised questions.

Last week, Defense Department officials disclosed that ESSI contracts issued in 2002 with a cumulative value of $158 million had been referred to the Pentagon (news - web sites) inspector general's office for investigation. The contracts were supervised by a former Defense official who was sentenced to prison for improperly aiding another contractor, Boeing Co.

Pentagon Acting Undersecretary Michael Wynne said he had referred the contracts "that appear to have anomalies in them." Wynne and his aides would not elaborate on those anomalies. Other contracts referred for review included pacts with Accenture (formerly called Andersen Consulting), Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

In a briefing with stock analysts Tuesday, Gerald A. Potthoff, ESSI president, played down the significance of the probe, stating that the company contracts were under review simply because they were awarded on a sole-source basis.

He said he was confident it would "have no effect" on the company and that the probe was focused on the actions of government officials, not ESSI.

"We will cooperate fully," he added.

The ESSI contracts now being reviewed by the inspector general came in a series of awards by the U.S. Air Force for a piece of equipment known as a Tunner.

Named after a former Air Force major general, the Tunner is in wide use by the Air Force to swiftly load and unload large military transport aircraft. It can handle 60,000 pounds of cargo at a time.

The Tunner has also proven a valuable workhorse for ESSI, accounting for the bulk of a $35.1-million or 20% boost in its revenues in ESSI's heavy military division in 2002.

Shortly before the disclosure of the investigation, the Air Force announced that it had awarded the ESSI subsidiary another $9-million contract under the Tunner program.

The company describes itself as "a diversified supplier of high-tech, integrated military electronics, support equipment and logistics services for all branches of America's armed forces and certain foreign militaries."

Company officials acknowledge the war is an economic boon to the firm.

In its quarterly earnings report a year ago, then-Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Gerald L. Daniels said: "The increasing likelihood for a prolonged military involvement in Southwest Asia by U.S. forces well into 2006 has created a fertile environment for the type of support … products and services that we offer."

Other ESSI products that have seen use in the current conflicts include radar and detection services, field medical stations and field electric generator units.

The company's record growth has come from increased orders coupled with an aggressive buyout strategy. William Bush's company, Bush-O'Donnell, was paid $125,000 to serve as a consultant in ESSI's buyout of a military contractor three years ago.

With about 3,500 employees, some stationed in Iraq, ESSI's North America operations stretch from Nova Scotia to Florida. Most recently the company announced its purchase of Spacelink International LLC, a Virginia military contractor, for $150.5 million.

SEC filings also cite major contracts with the military in Saudi Arabia and China.

While some of ESSI's military contracts have been awarded through a competitive bidding process, others have not. Many of its contracts are "indefinite date-indefinite quantity" contracts, under which the size of the contracts depends on the need of the agency.

The company preference for sole-source contracts was evident early this year, with the $37.6-million purchase of Prospective Computer Analysts Inc., an electronic test equipment and engineering services firm. ESSI officials made special note that the Garden City, N.Y., firm had "a lot of sole-source contracts."

William Bush was named to the board of ESSI in 2000, eight months before his nephew was elected president of the United States.

In an interview Tuesday, the uncle said he decided to cash in the options because they would soon expire.

"The deadline was coming up, and we put in a bid on a house in Florida," William Bush said. He said he declared in advance to the company president his intentions to exercise those options.

Asked whether he was troubled by the fact that the company had earned significant revenue from the military engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan (news - web sites), the president's uncle said he would "prefer there was no business in Iraq. Unfortunately, we live in a troubled world."

He called ESSI an excellent company, and said exercising the options was "certainly not" to express any dissatisfaction with its performance.

"I'm very proud of it. They've done a wonderful job," William Bush said.

According to SEC filings, the St. Louis business executive still has options on 45,000 more shares of the company stock. He said the options he cashed in were granted when he first joined the company board.

Bush, who also sits on the company's audit committee, is paid a little less than $40,000 a year for his board and committee duties, including an annual stockholders meeting scheduled for next week. He and other board member accrue additional stock options annually.

Bush exercised the expiring options shortly after a series of announcements that the company had won additional orders totaling about $77 million to supply kits to re-armor and refurbish military equipment being used by U.S. forces in Iraq. The company has 35 employees stationed in Iraq to install the protective gear.

The company estimates the refurbishing work in Iraq ultimately could bring revenues of $200 million or more.

News of the armoring and refurbishment contracts boosted ESSI's stock to a record $60.39 per share earlier this year. The stock closed Tuesday at $54.34.

In the conference call with analysts Tuesday, ESSI's Potthoff expressed optimism that the Bush administration's proposed $82-billion supplemental defense budget submitted last week could mean substantial additional opportunities for the company in Iraq and elsewhere.

"Personally, I could not be more happy about our company's prospects," Potthoff told stock analysts.

~excellent diary posted on Kos, explaining just who the "ultra-right" are, the power they yield, and their mission:

Sith Lords of the Ultra-Right
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/22/155525/061

NonnyO:

I have a real problem with posts like your's comparing Bush with Nazi Germany. I would strongly suggest that you spend the weekend at the Washington holocost museum before making such outrageous posts.

I have been here since the inception of this site and I will continue to be a strong advocate for maintaining the credibility and legitimacy of our posts and of those who have worked so hard to maintain this site.

Such comparisons are vulgar, demeaning and beneath the dignity of this blog site and I beg that others not follow with such outrageous comparisons. Such posts only serve to undermind everything that we seek to obtain here.

Bob,

"strategery"... I love that word.
The only problem is that with our "old" minds we only know and understand the "old" original word: strategy...
There are such great examples: Caesar, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Churchill...Bush doesn't fit in with his "strategery".
Is it a problem of spelling?
Did he ever graduate from kindergarten?

That guy is really an error in the big course of history.

Posted by: Ira at February 23, 2005 06:09 PM

ira~
I would only ask that you read this in its entirety~

by Thom Hartmann,
When Democracy Failed - 2005
The Warnings of History

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

ontovictory:

Ok I read When Deocracy Failed as you suggested. It is total trash. I will not participate in such insane comparisons. Call Bush extreme, call him Nixonian, call him evil if that motivates you, but please stop posting this type of garbage.
We have serious work to do in this country if we are to survive and such comparisons will only harm this site and everything others have contributed here.

My understanding when I joined this discussion site was that we were serious people who's objective was to brainstorm and mobilize American for future elections. Again posting words of Nazi, Hitler and trash like that strengthens our opponents and slanders the millions lost in the hollocost.
Again if you don't understand that please spend your weekend at the Washington hollocost museum and let us know what you learned.
Lately I see a lot of Bush bashing and trashing. Bush will be out of office in 1400 days. I want to hear more of how we are planning for our futures.

Ira,

Like you, I'm offended when anyone compares anything to the Holocaust. But I think there is an important difference between that, and comparing something to the tactics employed by Hitler in attaining and consolidating power.

In Nonny's comment, and in a quick re-reading of the Hartmann article, I didn't find a single reference to the Holocaust.

Bob;

I did not come here to fight with you guys and split hairs whether Hitler=Holocaust or whether Bush's tactics are similar.
Those of us that know holocaust victim's ancestors understand what I am talking about.
I am sorry but making such comparisons in anyway demean what Mr. Bell, Suz and others have tried to accomplish here. I am out bragging to my county chair about this site and our objectives and strongly feel that these discussions plain and simply don't belong here.
I truly hope that I am not alone in these sentiments.

Bob, Ira and all.
The Hartmann article tries to show the process the Nazis used to gain and consolidate their power. The obvious comparison is to the process used by Bushco to do the same. But there is a deeper meaning and it relates to those who feel they are victims. This is right out of Wallis’s God’s Politics: When people are victims, there is no accountability. Germans were made to be the victims after WWI. Reparations and restraints against their future ambitions caused the populace to think the whole world was against them. The same is true of the Israelis and Palestinian conflict. Both peoples think they are victims and they can do anything to anybody to survive. Along comes 911 and Bush plays the tune that we are victims and can do anything to anybody to ensure our survival. We must stop believing we are the victims and can stomp anybody who disagrees with us. So every time Bush wants to do something controversial, out comes 911 and the victim-hood dance starts and then atrocities happen. The solution is to not allow us to be victims. When the drumbeats start, we need to push back hard.

------------------------------------------------

NEW THREAD

------------------------------------------------

As a Jew myself with European ancestry, I do know what you are talking about Ira. I have family members directly affected by the Holocaust, and was living in DC when the museum was dedicated, and have been there many times.

In talking with family members and many elderly folks here in South Florida who actually LIVED through those times, they do not mince words when making such comparisons, and they would take you to task for calling this trash.

The similarities to today in the historical references CAN not and SHOULD not be ignored... for as you well know, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I'm not here to fight either, but the slippery slope is what we are working so hard to avoid, and couple that with the oil that is pouring on that slope, and it gets more difficult to achieve any traction with every passing day.

Holocaust? Certainly not. Borderline fascist tactics disguised as democracy... you better believe it.

I admire your "High Road" approach, I really do, but if you say the comparison demeans the work being done here because the right will take those words and say we are nuts, then so be it... but silence is betrayal, and I've been called a Socialist one too many times to not call a spade a spade.

Bottom line: I find the article and the historical references relevant.

I posted this last night Im going to repost it as it is very relevent to this argument.

....

Wow thats neat I was just thinking about that game Risk yesterday and the Bush administration...

You know in a way I really don't see it as a grab for world domination by georgie though. Alot of people make the same analogy that that was Hitlers goal as well..I think thats slightly off.

I think we all agree georgie is the most dangerous fool since calligula. But the funny thing is when people hear bush motives and goals compared to Hitler himself they bristle. But if you look at it they are ALMOST perfectly parrallel and both atleast knew enough to know actual global dominance wasn't possible.

I dont care what race you are you simply cannot breed enough little nazis to be every where ALL the time.

Georgies a fool but I'm sure some one explained it to him. Probably Carl.
Hitler did exactly what georgie is doing but you must understand WHAT EXACTLY george IS doing.

Hitler did not care for jews but that wasnt really the point of his acts. He HAD to kill the jews. They were the witnesses and rightful hiers to all he STOLE.

WW 2 was a crime to hide a larger crime. Those families who got rich off bloody jewish property are still rich to this day. Hitler HAD to eventually commit genocide as the theft became the biggest crime humanity ever saw.

Biggest since native americans were slaughtered for thier land, that is. The people who got rich off that are still to this day rich from it. the murder escalated in direct corrolation with the scale of the theft. In both cases of genocide.

It all comes down to war profiteering. Bush is using the blood of the Iraqis to hide a bigger crime.

The surprising thing about war profiteers is they have the exact same mindset as a common thief.

Bush is not out to control the world. He is out to steal as much as he can and blow up the evidence while he and his line disappear into the smoke that will take generations to settle.

Generations, that is, unless,. he is caught red handed.
If you want to take down georgie follow the money. Youll have to step over alot of bodies to keep up, but he is, in the end...as sloppy as a simple thief.

If bloggers can expose a gay hooker getting state secrets with his mandates, imagine what the bloggers who can see past fuzzy math could do to those we ALREADY KNOW ARE PROFITING....

Instead of thinking bush has aspirations of being emperor, consider for a moment the mindset of a common thief and suddenly things become very clear.

I personaly cannot do math tricks but I can add enough to know there is SERIOUS MONEY missing...TRILLIONS....If you can work with numbers that big I bet you could directly connect bush to....um lets just say serious felonies.

If I could do those tricks I would personally start with the insurance scam on the World Trade Towers. (The insurance on the Towers was increased by 300% less than 90 days before they were destroyed..no Im not joking...google it.)

In Germany it took years for the people to come together with a common understanding of what happened. Perhaps this time we wont give bush time to move on to genocide.

I really REALLY hope so.

BTW ...HI Yall

(Not comparing bush to hitler is to ignore EVERY lesson history has to offer...this is sheer folly that turned average germans into vicious mass murderers.)

"Thom Hartmann (www.thomhartmann.com) lived and worked in Germany during the 1980s, is the Project Censored Award-winning, best-selling author of over a dozen books, and is the host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk radio program."

~I certainly never meant to offend anyone by linking to Mr. Hartmann's article, upthread. To me, he seems like a creditble writer and I trust the material that is posted on Commondreams.
Again, I never meant to offend anyone, that was not my purpose.
I do plead guilty in posting some "Bush-bashing" links. Sometimes its easy to get carried away. I'm sorry if that offends also.
I know this DCP site is a serious endeavor, and I would never do anything to undermine it by posting links to articles that might offend anyone.
I will continue fighting against BushCo and the Right wing agenda and helping to elect Progressives and Democrats in my corner of the U.S.
But I won't be posting anymore links at this site.

OnTo Victory feel free to post whatever links you find helpful or worthy of discussion...

Hitler makes people have a knee jerk reaction... They will get over it or they wont..either way

I think that was a very interesting article.

Ira, I know your sensitivity towards mention of Hitler, and that it might be a name-calling kind of argument.

However, as Jewish, working in the Jewish world, I find the comparison accurate, shorthand, and not the least sensational. We are all using the "F" word lately. I remember seeing Kerry in a townhall setting, and he chided someone from using it, when saying "extremist" was better.

Like calling Bush a liar, boldly, Fascist is apt.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at February 23, 2005 07:42 PM

I hope you will continue to post on this site. I have been reading with GREAT interest many of the links you have posted in the last few days, and I find your contribution VERY educational. I for one have greatly appreciated your posts.

In fact, you have posted articles in the last couple of days that have answered MANY specific questions I have had regarding the religious right (with names, dates, etc.), and the similarities of this administration to the historical rise of the Nazis in Germany. I don't see anything offensive about it. And I am a person of Hebrew descent who is a Christian and once thought of myself as a conservative.

And Ira, with all due respect, our present administration insults my intelligence every single day by lying to me through the media.

It degrades human dignity every day on foreign soil on battlefields, and with the maiming and killing of innocent people through war. It degrades human dignity in sweatshops run by large corporations overseas, and degrades it's own in this country by taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

If I cannot, within reason, exercise freedom of speech on this site, I may as well resign myself and go read propaganda on a pro-Bush, pro-neocon, pro-religious right blog.

The similarities between this administration and the historical rise of the Nazis in Germany are chilling. Only maybe if it continues to escalate, they won't come for the Jews this time, they will come for the baby boomers.

My momma was right. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Christy:
Apparently ontovictory understood that my earlier posts about the Hartman article was not intentded to chill speech here but to warn those like Christi to not turn this site into a bunch of lunatics. Your post Christi "Hitler makes people have a knee jerk reaction... They will get over it or they wont..either way" scares the hell out of me. It shows that either you have no understanding of history or no respect for it...they will get over it..what the hell is that supposed to mean.

I don't understand what has been going at this site but I am beginning to feel that without a moderator it is spinning out of control, with comments that are way over the edge.

I spent this past week studying Lakoff and my college linguistic books and plan on reading Wallis book this weekend. I now have a better understanding of how impt language is to political campaigns; apparently some here have not learned that yet.

Did we not learn anything this past summer when 1 stupid video production out of literally thousands submitted to the moveon ad campaign almost torpedoed the millions of dollars and probably millions of hours spent by its volunteers with an ad production that was similarly out of bounds.

I have really enjoyed this site but until there is a moderator that can reasonably monitor these kinds of posts, it is becoming a waste of time and becoming counter productive. Free speech is great folks, but self destruction is not an endeavor I choose to participate in. And no Christi the holocaust families and my lost relatives will not get over it like it was a lost high school football game.

Ira,

What was it exactly that upset you so much on on to victory's post?

Do you consider that post over the top because it was showing precise similarities between attitudes and actions taken by the Nazi's as they rose to power, and the attitudes and actions taken by the Bush administration?

And why do you feel that way?

Ira...

Your comment to Christy... "Your post Christi "Hitler makes people have a knee jerk reaction... They will get over it or they wont..either way" scares the hell out of me. It shows that either you have no understanding of history or no respect for it...they will get over it..what the hell is that supposed to mean?"

What the hell it means is, if someone posts something related to Hitler, readers often times have an immediate knee-jerk reaction... kinda like the one you are having, and continue to have.

Get over it means, reader: get over it. She is not referring to the Holocaust survivors, she is referring to people's reaction to reading posts about Hitler... again, kinda like yours. I'm certain Christy can defend herself, heck, I've witnessed her smackdowns, but what kind of person do you think she is to even infer that she would make such a callous comment about Holocaust survivors?

So get over it, cuz people are going to post things they find relevant, and a moderator is nothing more than a censor with a pretty title.

What scares the hell outta me is is your continued condescending tone about all topics to people posting on the blog... and referring to people as "lunatics" for baring their very souls is about as high-minded as Bill O'Reilly.

You are not the only one who studies linguistics or history et al, and to suggest that people here don't understand history or otherwise is what's way outta bounds, and I've lost count how many times you have told people here that "apparently, you've not learned anything".

You need to pull your face out of those books for a couple days, get some air, and a good dose of common sense...

You often make good points and then submarine them with pompous, arrogant, and dare I say, elitist verbage ... it's possible to overthink sometimes, ya know?

This site is, by no means, spinning out of control.

I'm Marc Trager, and I approved this message.

Posted by: Ira at February 24, 2005 12:01 AM

I hear what you're saying. I too am spending my time studying Lakoff. (Time is precious to me.) You might want to take a look at the Rockridge Institute, where serious people are doing serious work. :-) They are now asking for people to get involved.

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/

Ira, also, you might want to check out this week's US News & World Report. (The issue on "The Secret Mind: How Your Unconscious Really Shapes Your Decisions.") It mentions Gladwell's book "Blink" (that Resolute has posted about) and also work by Gerald Zaltman. Quite a fascinating read... and very similar to the work Lakoff and other people who have been researching "right brain" influence over the years. (Of course, I'm a poet and have been reading about this stuff for over a decade, so I'm biased in its favor. ;-)

But, my point is, this work (whatever you want to call it, right brain, metaphor, framing) is going on around us right now... and it IS framing our society (as US New points out) down to the level of how hospitals are designed, not to mention how the game of politics is played.

Howard Dean gets it... he wrote the forward to "Elephant." Nancy Pelosi gets it... she hired Lakoff to give a seminar to House Dems.

Some people are involved and interested, and ready to learn the way the world is moving now, and some aren't.

The Rockridge Institute is looking for volunteers.

Marc comparing me to O'Reiley or an elitist b/c I resent the over the top comparisons of Bush to Hitler is ridiculous. If that makes me a right winger, a Bush apologist or an elitist so be it.
Marc an elitist does not do 30 years of political grunt work for causes that I am sure we both share.
Again no one responded to my analogy of the errant moveon commercial comparing Bush to Hitler and the unnecessary firestorm it caused.
Bush is a lot of things and no positive words can come out of my head but to keep comparing him to Hitler only strengthens our opponsents and makes it easier for them to keep winning elections and make our lives miserable.
If somehow saying that words, language, images, symbols and framing are important components to the political process and our achieving election victories makes me out as some kind of wacko that is OK.
I will be spending my time at the Rockridge Site and KOS as kj suggested. Sorry that my friends here don't seem to get it it about my sensitivity towards the Hitler references, perhaps it is b/c of my religious background, family or friends' life experiences. And no Marc no Christy I won't get over it and I yes I will have a knee jerk reaction to it as long as I am on this earth. Hitler tried valiantly to exterminate my ancestors. Exactly what about that do you not understand and why on earth do you feel that such comparisons do anything at all to help the Democratic Party or to persuade moderates or conservatives in this country to join the Democratic Party?

Ira said:
"If somehow saying that words, language, images, symbols and framing are important components to the political process and our achieving election victories makes me out as some kind of wacko that is OK."

Well, then you're my kind of wacko, brother. ;-) Words, language, symbols and framing are important components to not only the political process, but they are what makes us human beings, as opposed to our close ancestors (of the hairy kind). lol

There are always going to be those who oppose going forward, who oppose change, who actually oppose learning and education. I can understand that; doing the same thing over and over- while expecting different results- is a common trait in many of us.

But, at some point, those who see the gift (and the research) that has been laid in our laps will quit trying to pull those who resist learning about it along. I know I have. Because there is no time to waste. The 'wingers have a 30, 40 year head start on us with this research. And I want to do more than pull people into the party of the Democrats, I want to pull them into the human race.

There's a lot of work to be done. We need to evolve. Now.

Those who will move forward will do just that. Those who want to stay with the techniques of the past will also do just that.

As I said on one of my first posts on the JK blog, we all have our parts to play.

Namate, fellow/sister bloggers. @;-)

*ahem* that's "namaste" lol!

Posted by: Ira at February 23, 2005 06:28 PM

Ira:

When I first read your entry last night, my first thought was: "Why you silly, condescending sod!!! How dare you try to censor me like I'm a little girl who has just uttered a dirty word?!? Neither you nor anyone else has any authority over me whatsoever, and you have absolutely no right to censor me or anyone else on this blog!" I didn't initially respond to your post because I dislike cat fights on the blog, and responding would only put me down on your level - which, at best, is juvenile, to say the least. I would never tell someone they could not have their own opinions, nor that they couldn't express their own opinions. I would simply scroll past that person's entry and not read it. I read the blog entries, click on the links, read them, and if something is noteworthy (either something someone writes, or a link they've provided that was particularly insightful) sometimes I'll contribute my two cents, and people can take my opinion or leave it, as they choose. I truly do not want people to always agree with something I say, nor do I expect anything that unrealistic; it would inhibit a free-flow dialogue, and it would lack questions and other opinions and points of view that I want to hear so I can add to my knowledge base - it's the other people on this blog who add to my knowledge about this administration and what's going on in it. Rubber stamp opinions are tedious and boring. Sometimes I respectfully disagree with certain opinions, and sometimes I'll say so, and other times I remain silent - I very, very firmly believe each person has a right to express her or his own opinion without censorship. But I would not tell someone they should not post their opinions on this blog (or anywhere else), whether it's on topic or off - ever!!! When I say I believe in First Amendment rights, I believe in First Amendment rights, which includes your right to hold whatever opinion you want, even if it's as condescendingly wrong as your attack on me and other people on this thread last night.

I slept on it....

Did you read Hartman's article??? Didn't you "get" the parts where Hartman talked about control of the media (which we currently have under BushCo), official propaganda (which the Pentagon now has with their cable-access station), rigged elections (everyone on this blog has written about the 2000 and 2004 elections, the probability they were stolen and how).... all of which are very relevant to the aims of this blog. Furthermore, all or most of us have lamented at length about the abuse and torture of prisoners which were all approved by Bush in an Executive Order, and 'legal opinions' were written by Gonzales and other memebers of his administration and they all seem to have signed off on approving torture.... and there's a distinct lack of media coverage about that, given the secrecy of this administration (which Hartman compared to Hitler's administration, too). I see the US as one pen stroke on another secret Executive Order away from executing prisoners at those places; it's bad enough with what's already going on - and I wonder why the people who voted for the cretin don't object to what he's approved. Lack of media coverage is one of the factors involved, as well as a neocon spin if it is mentioned. When it comes to media reform, almost any topic with a skewed neocon spin that has made the infotainment news on mainstream media seems open to discussion on this blog - especially knowing the truth and expressing it (Social Security comes to mind). What on earth is wrong with that? It's merely pointing out the many areas where media has not fulfilled its function in our country - and, quite frankly, without reading the info on the blog or in my e-newsletters, likely I wouldn't have heard about many of the things on the many links people post, or be enlightened by the observations of the other bloggers, since I know perfectly well I will not hear the truth, or even a mildly opposing opinion, in mainstream media infotainment news.

As far as comparisons between Hitler and Bush: The comparisons have gone on since the days of the Kerry blog - that I know of (and certainly the comparisons were written about by op-ed writers and others on other blogs). Their personalities as well as their administrations are certainly similar, so it is quite fair to compare Bush to Hitler. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.... it's difficult not to comment on the similarities when one has the least little bit of information about WWII. I saw the similarities before I ever joined the Kerry blog, but I hadn't been aware of the fact that other people also saw the same things as I did. The comparison is not new, nor did it originate with me, obviously. If you had read the Hartman article, you would have understood that my post only agreed with Hartman's assessment of the situation - but he has much more expertise about the subject than I do. I only have a lot of reading of WWII history behind me, and not nearly the expertise Hartman has, so I defer to his learning and observations as more valid than anything I could write.

No one who knows people who perished in the Holocaust could ever get over it, nor would I expect them to. As a genealogist currently working on my third genealogy web site, I have just the merest inkling of the devastating loss many Jewish families have gone through, and those are losses felt today, still. On that score, you have my empathies and deepest sympathy.

Perhaps that's why I don't understand your knee-jerk reaction when anyone compares Hitler and Bush and their administrations. If I can see the similarities between the people and administrations in pre-WWII Germany and the Bush administration for the last four years so clearly, I don't understand why you don't, since it obviously affected your family so heavily. Refusing to see what's so patently obvious doesn't make it go away.

You crossed a line in trying to censor me and others, Ira. You owe the lot of us an apology, especially on-to-victory4Dems since that's who posted the link first, and on-to-victory indicated s/he wouldn't be posting any more. Shame on you, Ira! Your attempt to censor someone just lost us a person with valid opinions and great links, and that's a loss to this blog. The only people who have any "authority" on this blog are Dick and Karen. If they want to censor me or kick me off this blog, I'll defer to their judgement. You, however, have not such authority, and you don't need to treat me and others on this blog like we're errant children who need to learn how to write so carefully we won't offend you; you're not the patriarch of this blog, and you most certainly have no authority over any of us, nor do you have the right to tell us what to do or not do. Your words and actions have been condescending and very sexist and should be beneath that of an adult. I'm of an age, Ira, that I now have both experience and learning on my side - when I don't have information I need I ask questions; when I do have information I say so - and I do not take kindly to anyone condescendingly telling me to not express my opinions if or when I have any on any given topic whatsoever. If you don't want to read anything I have to say, scroll past.... censor yourself if you wish, but do not ever attempt to censor me or anyone else.

You've had valid things to say and I've learned from your posts, Ira. I'm quite willing to agree to disagree with you on any topic, or to agree about other topics. It really doesn't matter much to me. Your opinions are as valid as anyone else's.

But when you are immature, condescending, and try to censor me personally: Bite Me!!!

Ira,

In general, I deplore over-comparisons to Bush as Hitler and certainly to Republicans or neo-cons as Nazis. There is no place for that superficial thinking here.

I am also in the middle of writing a book about the 1930s and about a man who had to leave Germany.

I found Hartmann's piece fairly well-researched and specific to the tactics the Nazis used. As I research the period, I am more and more disturbed by the similar patterns.

As a Jew, it makes my blood run cold. However, I do not believe that genocide is imminent here; actually, I believe they have found much subtler ways of holding onto power. And I deplore those tactics; they are going to cost us the planet, not only one ethnic group.

The fight now is for the future of a viable planet, and for democracy itself, IMHO.

Ira, Fellow Wacko:

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/

@;-) @;-) @;-)

Namaste

Ira,

Hartman was talking about tactics used to achieve his ends. Had the Bushies used tactics similar to Attlia the Hun or Alexander the Great, maybe you would not have been so offended. Hartman found parallels pertaining to how to sieze power and control, not on how a particular group of people were treated.

It's a sad thing, that you seem to think that all of your education and involvement trumps anyone else's. You can't be above anyone here. You can't insist on your own opinions being the only CORRECT opinions. Simply put, don't talk down to people, it's a nasty little habit that superior people adopt when they think they are dealing with lesser humans.

While I don't pretned to speak ofr anyone here at the DCP, I think I am pretty well nderstood and agreed with, that we are about letting information in, forming our own opinions about it, and THEN putting up our opinions for discussion.

You are most welcome to your opinion about the Hartman article and everything else. But when you are disagreed with, take it on the chin and don't call for a moderator to come and make it go your way. Fight your own battles, and learn to agree to disagee.

For my part, I am impressed with Hartman's article. I said so. I'm not taking it back.

to ira & others~
I decided to reflect on my decision to cease posting on this site and I have come to the conclusio