Confronting the Ghosts of Slavery's Past and Reproductive Choice's Future

Sorry that this is OT, but tomorrow May 2, 2005 marks second anniversary of "mission accomplished" speech.

Sorry this is OT, but yesterday was the 30th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War. I have placed information in "SoapBox" in the Forum, to commemorate this. See also Memorial link from Rossian (last topic)

Also, Happy Beltane! Today is also International Worker's Day in most countries of the world except for the United States, where today is Loyalty Day, as decreed by George Bush II in 2003 (see last topic)

Neo-con's Definition of Freedom
author: D. Burbeck

It is imperative that the American people understand what this word means to the neo-cons. The freedom that Lincoln gave to the slaves is the classic case, and I will not give a lengthy discourse of it, for it is what we all know and understand. But this is only one variation of the definition of "freedom".

Consider the experience that we all have had - being robbed or mugged or burglarized. Did the Police do anything more than take a report? Did they actively investigate and pursue the perpetrators? NO. Their excuse would be, of course, that they cannot devote detectives to every small crime that is reported. And we all accept that. "Buy some insurance and get back to your TV." The point is that people are actually free to live a life of crime.............. until they get caughtred-handed.

But look at the other extreme of the criminal world. Look at the corporate criminals. People like Michael Milken, Fastow, Ebbers, etc. etc., and ask yourself -

Do these types of criminals get the justice they deserve?

Milken was the only one of dozens of shysters who was even taken to court, and his punishment was a laughable 18 months in minimum security and a fine of $200 million - when he and his gang ripped off close to $50 BILLION from the public and the Government.

Now your starting to see the definition of freedom that is cemented in the minds of our elected officials. At a press conference during the massive looting in Iraq, Donald Rumsfeld was being grilled with questions when he put his head down, began shuffling his papers getting ready to walk away, and said "These people are
free now. Free to become criminals."

_____________SNIP_________________________________

The really sad part is that these "freedoms" are being handed over to them by a complaisant electorate that has a remote control in their hands and would much rather watch a good game on TV than stay informed about the sadistic game being played on THEM! And the neo-cons are banking on it, because they are quite aware that there are very tough times ahead!

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/04/316533.shtml

Dianne that it is a noble tribute to the lost soldiers and families in Vietnam for which I salute you.

If Bob Evans is out there, on another topic, I am curious if you have any sentiments regarding the Minutmen who I see as vigilantes illegally patrolling our borders. Personally, it appears to be authorized by this Administration in their laisez faire attitude towards lawlessness and thwarting the rule of law which has unfortunately become too frighteningly familiar.

Its not a big topic of discussion or issue, but it seems to be a further interesting example of this country's further slide into Tyranny in the name of immigration enforcement. I expect immigrant bashing to be the next shoe to drop by the neocon Republicans and especially those in our southwestern states.

I inquired here last week about our collective thoughts regarding the Minutemen, and got no response here.

Stop Tyranny of the Majority!

More Neocon "Freedom"

New findings wherein British & American legal officials of Blair & Bush met long before the war, to plot.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1474276,00.html

Is this not impeachable for both?!!!

Ira
I missed your inquiry as to the militiamen who the government supports. I had been thinking about Arnold Schwartznegger, first saying the borders should be "sealed" then recanting - blaming his "poor English" (he is an immigrant himself!) Then he spoke on conservative talk radio and hailed the militiamen of Arizona, hoping California would have more of the same.

In Europe, candidates are making hay by running on "anti-immigrant" platforms, further polarizing things there. Yes, I can imagine that we are not far from that. It will be framed to sound less noxious than what it is.

Google News is now linking to Blogger News Network as a news source:

http://www.legendgames.net/showstory.asp?page=blognews/stories/UP0000205.txt

Dianne:

It is a ways off but I still feel that how we deal with southwestern states like Arizona, Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico are the absolute keys to taking the whitehouse back in 2008 and control of Congress next year and that how we as Progressives frame the immigration debate will be central to folks in those states and how they relate to us as Progressives. Maybe I am wrong but it deserves a full day of discussion here to formulate a thoughtful, responsible and common sense policy for us to endorse.Perhaps its for another day and discussion but I have been seeing some distrurbing reports about these gangs of thugs calling themselves Minutemen.

I'd argue that changing NAFTA so that both Mexican and American workers, on both sides of the border, get a fair deal is the best way to stem illegal immigration. People will keep coming here if they need to work to eat. Corporations that are exploiting workers on both sides of the border, then distributing their blood profits to participants in Bush's "ownership society", are the real problem here. We all bought a bill of goods with NAFTA, and the Democrats have to admit their mistake on this issue.

Ira, all I can tell you is the Minutemen are a topic of conversation among few liberals in the county where I live. We know about it, we're aware. So far, no one has written anything for any of the newspapers.

Matt, as far as abortion laws, I think, if for no other reason, this issue alone is enough reason for young women to become involved in politics. In this case, politics is as local as it gets, their own bodies.

Ira

The whole concept of militia men is alien to anything I can imagine us standing for.

On a different topic, but also thug-related, I've read and reread the Observer article about 10 times and have boiled it down to this:

I have shortened the Observer “scoop”

The British Military Chief said that if British soldiers are ever prosecuted for war crimes, Tony Blair and his Attorney General should join them in prison. He believes he does not have full coverage for the International Criminal Court (which the US, incidentally, won't join). He says he was not shown evidence that the war might not have been legal and was bamboozled into thinking a 2nd UN resolution wasn't needed.

Newly leaked documents show Tony Blair was considering military action to topple Saddam Hussein as early as 2002. The assumption had been made that 'the UK would take part in any military action' initiated by the United States. Blair said it 'would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the UN inspectors.' He added: 'If the political context were right, people would support regime change.' (Therefore, the “spin” for the public would be “regime change” even though that wasn’t the reason)

The advice to go to war was shaped after Blair's chief legal advisor met with the five most powerful Republican lawyers in the Bush administration, in February 2003, including Alberto Gonzalez (who had been at the center of the Abu Graib scandal and described elements of the Geneva Convention on treatment of prisoners as “quaint”). The four other lawyers were Powell’s legal advisor, Condoleezza’s legal advisor, Rumsfeld’s legal advisor and John Ashcroft himself.

They convinced Blair’s legal advisor that a 2nd UN resolution wasn’t needed to go to war. The military chief and Parliament members were not shown the full legal opinion which has now been leaked to the press, days before the election.

BECAUSE OF THIS, PEOPLE ARE DYING.

Laura Bush said that George will have to stay up later than 10 PM if he is to fight tyranny (she did her standup comedy act at an awards event).

While the workers of the world unite and there are parades, parties, rallies and festivities all over the globe, we are stuck with this:

115. Loyalty Day

Release date: 2003-05-29

(a) Designation.— May 1 is Loyalty Day.

(b) Purpose.— Loyalty Day is a special day for the reaffirmation of loyalty to the United States and for the recognition of the heritage of American freedom.

(c) Proclamation.— The President is requested to issue a proclamation—

(1) calling on United States Government officials to display the flag of the United States on all Government buildings on Loyalty Day; and

(2) inviting the people of the United States to observe Loyalty Day with appropriate ceremonies in schools and other suitable places.

Ira, Kj, and Dianne,

Do people REALLY feel safer with "minute men" or a bunch of vigilantes running around carrying guns pretending to be Barney Fifes?

Frankly, I can see them EASILY getting a blast of adrenaline and shooting up innocent people.

Wake up all! This is NOT protecting your kids or family. These people ARE NOT PROFESSIONALS like the National Guard or the Police Force!!!

Ira

Democracy Now had an awesome debate:

Vigilantes or Civilian Border Patrol

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/05/1334206

The Minutemen have staked out across a 23-mile stretch of border northeast of Nogales for the month-long action. Many use binoculars and night-vision goggles. Some are armed with guns. Over 20 pilots with aircraft are also surveying the area.

Organizers call their effort a peaceful protest over the government's failure to secure its borders. Both the Mexican government and the Bush administration have described them the Minutemen as vigilantes. Meanwhile, the American Civil Liberties Union has sent observers to keep tabs on the Minutemen to ensure they don't take the law into their own hands.

& you can read the whole transcript (from the radio show), with Amy Goodman, at the link.

Sparrow

It was vigilantes who did lynchings and cross burnings.

I consider these dangerous rightwing elements, taking the law into their own hands.

1 in every 138 Americans is behind bars

WASHINGTON: The US prison population, already the largest in the world, reached a new high of more than 2.1 million last year, with one in every 138 residents of the country now behind bars, according to new government statistics.

The data, made public by the Bureau of Justice Statistics on Sunday, put the US far ahead of countries like China and Russia, whose combined population is about five times that of America.

"The numbers are pretty consistent with what they have been in the last few years," Justice Department statistician Paige Harrison, a co-author of the report, said. "We are seeing continued growth in prisons and jails, but at a lower rate than we had about 10 years ago."

The study shows the number of inmates across the country rose an estimated 48,452 people, or 2.3 per cent, in the 12-month period ending on June 30, 2004.

In other words, the system was adding to its ranks on average 932 individuals every week. The rate of incarceration reached a record of 726 inmates per 100,000 residents — up from 716 a year earlier.

By comparison, the current incarceration rate in Britain is 142 per 100,000 citizens, in China 118, in France 91, and in Japan 58, according to the Justice Policy Institute.

US federal prisons that house most drug offenders accounted for the largest increase of the prison population — 6.3 per cent.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1088308.cms

I am not very good at telling stories or jokes but I heard an intereting story told by John Dean last night on Book Notes on CSPAN that if others here have not heard it is worth repeating.

Dean was told by one of the panelist that its rather unusal but certainly praiseworthy that as he gets older and a little grayer like all of us that it is unusual to hear of someone becoming more Progressive as they get older rather than becoming more conservative. How did that happen he was asked?

He then told a story about Bush being down in Crawford riding his bicycle and seeing a young boy with a box of puppies and he asked the young boy to tell him something about the puppies. The young boy told Bush proudly the puppies are all Republican puppies. Bush leaves beaming and anxious to go and tell Laura to get on her bicycle that there was something he proudly wanted to show her. They each got on their bicycles and headed down that same road looking for the same boy with his box of puppies. When they find the boy still sitting ou by the side of the road George anxiously ask the boy to please tell Laura something about the puppies. The boy proudly says, mam the puppies are all true blue Democratic puppies. Bush then scrunthes his face the way he does and says young man how could that be, you told me just a few minutes ago that all of those puppies are Republican puppies. The boy looks up sheepishly and tells Bush, sir since you were here those puppies have opened their eyes.

That was former whitehouse counsel's John Dean story.Its probably a story as old as the hills but I couldn't resist repeating it here. There is hope that others in this country will open their eyes like the little boy's puppies.

Ira
Did you hear where Bush truly joked, at a recent gathering, that he would have to rename his new puppy "John McCain" - because "he only rolls over half the time"

Science is only good for America if it subdues the Masses:

Police toy with 'less lethal' weapons
30 April 2005

Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition
by David Hambling

Non-Lethal Weapons Research Project, University of Bradford

DO YOU prefer your police officers to be armed with a gun or a good old-fashioned truncheon or night stick? Or perhaps something in between: say a radio-frequency stun weapon, or a semiconductor laser that can bring down a man from across the street?

Such "less lethal" weapons are closer to reality than many people realise. New Scientist has learned that the research arm of the US justice department, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) is funding research into three such devices, all of which are intended to be used by the nation's police forces to bring down suspects and control crowds. In theory they should be less harmful to both their intended targets and bystanders than existing weapons like tear gas and rubber bullets. But such is the secrecy shrouding the new weapons that it is impossible for independent outsiders to judge.

In a statement given to New Scientist, the NIJ has provided a limited description of all three devices. The first is a radio-frequency weapon being developed by Raytheon at Palo Alto, California, which appears to be based on a similar concept to the Active Denial System weapon that Raytheon developed for the US marines in 2001. The military version is designed to heat people's skin with a 95-gigahertz microwave beam (New Scientist, 27 October 2001, p 26). With a range of 600 metres, it causes severe pain but, according to Raytheon, no damage. The NIJ has contracted the company to build a prototype suitable for use by police forces. Because it will be portable, it will presumably use less power and work over a shorter range.

The second device is described by the NIJ as "the first man-portable heat compliance weapon of its kind". It uses a semiconductor laser for "force protection, crowd control, and access denial". Though the Air Force Research Laboratory in Kirtland, New Mexico, has been contracted to produce a test-bed system, there is no known weapon, military or otherwise, that appears to work this way. Its effects and effectiveness can only be guessed at.

Further clues to the nature of these two devices can be gleaned from a November 2004 report produced by the NIJ's research division. In it, Joe Cecconi of the NIJ described a possible directed-energy prototype weapon as being shotgun-sized, producing an area of intense heat 15 centimetres in diameter at a range of 16 metres, with a magazine capable of delivering 12 shots each of less than a second. The NIJ would not confirm or deny whether this was a description of either the radio-frequency or the heat weapon.

“These less-lethal weapons may not leave any identifiable traces, so allegations of abuse will be hard to prove”

A third type of less-lethal weapon commissioned by the NIJ is a laser which produces a "plasma flash bang" at the point of impact, stunning and disorienting the victim. This is similar to the Pulsed Energy Projectile (PEP) system developed for the US marines (New Scientist, 5 March, p 8). The military system uses a chemical laser and weighs around 200 kilograms. The NIJ has commissioned Sterling Photonics of Albuquerque, New Mexico, to produce a "technology platform" for a police version that will be electrically powered and portable.

All three research programmes are due to end in September. But the information provided by the NIJ has so little detail about factors such as wavelengths and power levels that it is impossible to judge how safe the new weapons might be. There is no publicly available information on the effects of the Active Denial System weapon or plasma flash bangs.

As yet there are no non-lethal directed-energy weapons in use by law enforcers. The closest comparable devices are police electric-shock weapons, the best known of which is the Taser. This weapon was introduced in the 1970s, and became popular with police forces in the US during the 1990s. Critics have recently alleged that Tasers have caused the deaths of a number of suspects, and are prone to abuse (see "Taser troubles"), raising concerns that this pattern could be repeated with the new weapons.

Neil Davison of the Bradford Non-Lethal Weapons Research Project at the University of Bradford, UK, says more information about these weapons needs to be made public. "The non-lethal weapons community is always complaining about bad treatment in the media. But without more transparency about what is being developed, and what the effects on people are, suspicion is bound to be created." He also points out that as these weapons may not leave any identifiable traces, allegations of abuse will be hard to prove.

He also notes there has long been a demand for a capability to turn the power output of these weapons up or down. "Some of these weapons may have a 'lethal' setting," he warns.

Mike McBride, editor of the authoritative Jane's Police and Security Equipment journal, says: "Until these systems have proven to be safer than existing systems - baton rounds, Tasers, tear gas - there is little likelihood of them being deployed operationally."

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18624975.800

Indy,

Thanks, I feel oh so much safer--NOT!

This will be a May Day to remember!

From Seattle IndyMedia, I see that there is a May Day bicycle ride & I'm off to join it. They also write:

By covering up the history of May Day, the state, business, mainstream unions and the media have covered up an entire legacy of dissent in this country. As workers, we must recognize and commemorate May Day not only for its historical significance, but also as a time to organize around issues of vital importance to working-class people today.

---Also, my ultimate goal is that John Kerry will be wearing a Democracy Cell Project t-shirt for pajamas by tonight and that I will be stuffed with fresh seafood and that Christine Gregoire will have alot of money for her legal defense.

Posted by: DiAnne at May 1, 2005 01:30 PM

Dianne,

Will they still be fighting this by the next election?

Geez!!!

Hey, if we have to put up with the illegal President then they can shut up about a LEGITIMATE win by Gregoire!

Glad to know you're giving John Kerry a DCP t'shirt.

Happy May Day Everyone !

Back in the Olden Days, May 1st of 1886 to be exact, thousands of americans peacefully protested for an 8 hour work day in Chicago. Pinkerton detectives killed some protestors, and large scale marches were organized by a Albert and Lucy Parsons. They led marches of tens of thousands of people protesting the people killed as well as for workers rights.

Nobody knows who was responsible, but a bomb was planted and several Policeman were killed by their own in crossfires in the resulting confusion. People were rounded up, several hung. This came to be known as the Haymarket affair, named after the local area the bombing occured.

This fight for the 8 hour work day, which spanned Continents into Australia, Europe, Russia, is celebrated Globally as Labor Day, or May Day. I am from Argentina, and it is a large Celebration there.

Lucy parsons traveled the world advocating and lobbying. She is primarily responsible for May Day Labor rallys, remembering Americans that died in the struggle for Workers Rights.

The president sat down and the first lady proceeded to note that he is "usually in bed by now" and said she told him recently, "If you really want to end tyranny in the world, you're going to have to stay up later. "

She outlined a typical evening: "Nine o'clock, Mr. Excitement here is sound asleep and I'm watching `Desperate Housewives'." Comedic pause. "With Lynne Cheney. Ladies and gentlemen, I am a desperate housewife."

Laura Bush added that she and her husband obviously were destined to be together as a couple because "I was the librarian who spent 12 hours a day in the library and yet somehow I met George."

When Americans Think, they Vote Democrat.

A 2004 study by the Fuller Theological Seminary -- a leading Evangelical Christian divinity school -- showed that a decade long decline in abortion rates in the U.S. during President Clinton's administration has reversed. Glen Stassen, the Lewis B. Smedes Professor of Christian Ethics found that, under President Bush, rising unemployment and soaring healthcare costs have increased the abortion rate. He noted that "economic policy and abortion are not separate issues. They form one moral imperative." Stassen analyzed data from Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life, the Guttmacher Institute, and annual reports by individual state governments. He found that abortion rates declined 17.4% during the 1990s and reached a 24-year low when President Bush took office. "We Hold These Truths" reported that "Many expected that downward trend to continue under the conservative president, but Stassen found the opposite: 52,000 more abortions occurred in 2002 than would have been expected under the pre-2000 conditions, and abortion has risen significantly in those states reporting multi-year abortion statistics."

Facts....This Administration tries scrubbing them out, shouting them out, bombing them out....but those pesky little factoids just keep proving them wrong. We need to keep placing these truths in front of people.

Every American needs to have access to Health care, Education and the Truth. Should Abortions be legal...yes they should. Do i wish there were no more abortions, yes i do. One day we will achieve that goal, through health care and education.
We will Never achieve that goal by limiting access to health care. We will never achieve that goal by reverting to a NeoFundie style of government, restricting rights and placing limits on Americans.
That would only create illegal markets and force our young women to seek them. We should be helping Young Mothers, not creating criminals.

We must rediscover the foundation that made this Nation possible; Involvement in local issues that become National Movements.
WE are the "the People" the Declaration of Independance refers too. We are "the People" the bill of rights recognizes and guarentees rights towards. We stand upon the shoulders of Giants, Women and Men that sacraficed Life and Liberty to achieve what is being squandered away by this Administration.
This Administration counts on Americans to not question them, not check their facts, not get involved.

I am going to set aside a portion of my paycheck every month to help support the DCP, this wonderfull community that gives inspiration and Educates me. I hope each person is able to help whatever way they can.

We Need a Digital Boston Tea Party. We Will toss over the trash, replace it with Truth and Facts to advocate effective constructive change in our Government.

That was former whitehouse counsel's John Dean story.Its probably a story as old as the hills but I couldn't resist repeating it here. There is hope that others in this country will open their eyes like the little boy's puppies.

Posted by: Ira at May 1, 2005 01:11 PM

Ira--
I love this story, and will happily pass it around!
(I also agree with you about the need to really work on those southwestern states-- I truly think they are winnable for the Dems in 2006 and 2008, if the Dems are smart on strategy)

Posted by: Toolmaker at May 1, 2005 02:51 PM

Toolmaker,

Thank you! And you're absolutely right: when people think or get beaten up enough they always turn around and vote for the people who can help them.

Markos Moulitsas of Daily Kos (guesting at UK Guardian) on "framing" & a comparison of the US 2004 and UK 2005 elections - he claims both the Republicans in US & Labour in the UK controlled the issues - forcing the Dems in the US & the Lib Dems (left) and Tories (right) in Britain to react as minority "opposition" parties, rather than calling the shots.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/election/comment/0,15803,1474522,00.html

Here, we seem to have drifted right.
There, they seem stuck in the center.
Not terribly excited about either outcome at the moment, as it would be so nice for progressive, people-oriented policies to happen.

It looks like Bush (US) and Blair (UK) could get off scot-free, after masterminding jointly an unneccessary, ineffective and cruel military adventure.

By the way, Zack Exley, formerly of Move-On, has been recruited to help with the UK's election (Labour internet effort) and there were several articles lately on the use of the internet for fundraising and campaigning, blogger input & also podcasting, including several political podcasts by the BBC.

Ira,

Just catching up. I noted that some Minutemen supporters touted the fact that they included people with military experience as a good thing, but I just found that scarier. I loved Sparrow's reference to them as a bunch of "Barney Fifes". Unfortunately, they have more than just a single bullet in a pocket.

On one of the boards, someone asked who would consider joining the Minutemen. I said I would -- when they put a gun in my cold, dead hand. These vigilantes are all the more dangerous with the racist and "patriot" elements they atract.

Matthew,

Thank you once again for a thought provoking article.

I have been giving the issue of abortion rights more thought, and have recently thought of some ideas that make sense to me, and seem fair and reasonable. I welcome conversation today and this evening on this subject, whether in agreement, or disagreement. I must admit I have been struggling with this issue, wanting to be fair to everyone concerned, but holding fast to my personal beliefs. I am what I would consider a moderate who values the opinions and insight, as well as the input, of everyone here at the DCP. This is what democracy is all about!

l. Each person has the right to his own personal view of abortion, and should be allowed to vote according to his own view.

2. Majority should rule. Whether it is federal, or state. A woman wanting the freedom to choose
abortion as an option should have the freedom of choosing to move to a blue state that allows it if it is state determined. Haven't come up with a solution for the regulation against crossing state borders. However, isn't it our democratically elected officials that voted for that new regulation?

3. The education and provision of contraception should be escalated, and mandatory in all schools,
and state or federally funded for older Americans. Education about human reproduction and elementary, if not more, psychological education and social services should be state or federally funded, and either mandatory or strongly encouraged.

The need for abortions could be almost eliminated, in my way of thinking, if affordable education and medical and psychological care, as well as contraceptives, were provided free of cost for many, and dispensed on a sliding scale to those who can afford them.

Again, please help me out with this. I welcome all views, as I am earnestly seeking to understand this issue in a fair way to all.

With the information and logic I am using right now, I don't see how I could ever change my position. I respect your right to your view, and would like to hear it.

Regarding the immigration policy:

The best way to deal with the Minutemen and other forces are to redesign the immigration policies so that they would not be needed at all.

- Promote trade and economic policies that make living in Mexico and Central America more tolerable, while also creating jobs in the US as well.
- Promote immigration policies that primarily serve the economic needs of the nation.
- Do away with special-interest immigration policies (special amnesty for Nicaraguans, blanket entry for Cubans and North Koreans) that only fatten social conservatives and other right-wing elements.

Most importantly, the US society needs an extreme makeover of its own (such as universal healthcare and better education) so that it becomes a destination for concerned people of all stripes (much like what Canada and Australia have become), not just the desperate wanting to make a few quick bucks illegally.

Posted by: Toolmaker at May 1, 2005 01:56 PM

Interestingly, the US is just about the only country in the world that does not honor May Day. It's another socialist holiday, that's why - plus the American Labor Day does exist in September, but it's a different animal altogether.

The history of May Day does need to be revisited.

In Europe, candidates are making hay by running on "anti-immigrant" platforms, further polarizing things there. Yes, I can imagine that we are not far from that. It will be framed to sound less noxious than what it is.

Posted by: DiAnne at May 1, 2005 12:14 PM

DiAnne... here is one catch though:

The immigrant communities are more socially conservative than both their homelands AND their new countries. I've felt it with the Surinamese community in the Netherlands, being very intolerant of gays, single women, and Asians; I still shake my head whenever someone goes on and on about the "world-class tolerance" of Amsterdam. Naturally a xenophobic movement against this intolerance was formed, led by the late Pim Fortuyn, who himself was gay.

Things are not much different in the US... Look at the Ukrainian gay-bashers in the story you recently mentioned. And as I repeatedly mention, the Latino and Asian communities down in SoCal are not much better. If imported racism and homophobia keep up, I fully expect xenophobia to become a potent weapon in response, even from progressive circles.

In an ideal world, any kind of phobia would - and should - not exist, but unfortunately our world isn't that ideal.

Skinnylawyer:

While I am not an immigration lawyer I do know that there are special needs from countries like N. Korea and Liberia where their residents are in dire need of political asylum applications and as a nurturing Progressive I do not agree with you, that just b/c they may be conservative we should close the doors to them. It is unlikely they will attain citizenship for quite some time anyways and it will give us plenty of time to reach out to them.

I do understand that H1B Visa have now been limited to 65,000 applicants per year plus another 20,000 positions for PHDs to enter this country each year and since we are driving our best Asian scientist to return to India and China I feel like Thomas Friedman talked about last week, that until we start training our children to once again be at the top internationally, in math and science, that we need a substantial increase in H1B positions which are usually filled by April of the calender year.The DNC should take a stand on H1B visa increases. That is ridiculous and harmful restriction to the economic engine of this country which is in critically short supply of scientists. It is the issue of Hispanic drivers licenses and security that really needs attention and positioning, if we are to turn around states like Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado.

Again, please help me out with this. I welcome all views, as I am earnestly seeking to understand this issue in a fair way to all.

With the information and logic I am using right now, I don't see how I could ever change my position. I respect your right to your view, and would like to hear it.

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at May 1, 2005 06:39 PM

Hey Truth shall Prevail,

I believe that John Kerry said it all, with honest sincerity in the debates, and I sure as hell dont want a moron, no hypacritical right wing morons who have broken all the laws themselves, telling me what I can do with my body. I cannot walk in somebody elses shoes and no one can walk in mine so I am damed If I will have them tell me what I can do or cannot do. check out the Abortion Rate in Bill Clinton term to the so called christian right. they dont give a hoot about this subject they just use it as a battering ram against democrats with the so called christian right,

Thats is my thoughts on the matter.

Posted by: Ira at May 1, 2005 08:08 PM

Good point you brought up regarding the H1B work visas. We need to bring our competitiveness up - and yes, until our educational system is fixed, we will need all the skilled foreign help we can get. There is a very strong economic argument for letting in more skilled foreign workers. To be honest, we need skilled foreigners just to fill the teaching positions at our universities to produce our own skilled workforce.

And again, I think the best way to address illegal immigration is a long-term strategy addressing the very causes - both within the US and in Mexico and Central America.

Ideally you would be right about the North Koreans. But the Korean churches will play their hand before we ever will. And while there are progressive Korean churches (my nearest Korean church is a UCC congregation), they are few and far in between, and the vast majority are parrots of the Religious Reich. I would support encouraging North Koreans to submit asylum applications and taking in those who fulfill the requirements, but I do oppose Cuban-style blanket amnesty which Sam Brownback of Kansas has just handed out. And as for the Nicaraguan amnesty example which happened in the late 90's, I believe that it was handed out even though there was no economic benefit whatsoever to the US nor a humanitarian reason.

Posted by: rossiann at May 1, 2005 08:23 PM

Thanks for your input, Rossi. I really want to look at this thing from all angles.

The need for abortions could be almost eliminated, in my way of thinking, if affordable education and medical and psychological care, as well as contraceptives, were provided free of cost for many, and dispensed on a sliding scale to those who can afford them.

Again, please help me out with this. I welcome all views, as I am earnestly seeking to understand this issue in a fair way to all.

Truth Shall prevail:

I totally agree with you that a longer-range more EFFECTIVE plan moves past the issue of being pro-choice or not is the issue of having a choice for your individual destiny--that means being afforded adequate health care for you and your children, a decent education that makes you a viable contributing member of society, AND an economic system that allows you to move forward, regardless of race gender age.

Unfortunately, not a whit of any of these things are in place, or if once were, are disintegrating, and the idea of corporatocracy is taking hold--all on the backs of women and young girls. That is the real tragedy. In the end, we ALL suffer.

I am pro-choice, but I am also pro-life--that means respecting and taking care of the lives of those who are already here. The way this is moving, all of us, with the exception of those who can afford it, will be steamrolled over. And that's the ultimate crime.

Posted by: rossiann at May 1, 2005 08:23 PM

Thanks for your input, Rossi. I really want to look at this thing from all angles.

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at May 1, 2005 11:15 PM

You are most welcome, you know me and my big mouth but:

Matt:

Great read. This is probably why the Bush campaign used the code words "Dred Scott" when Bush spoke at his rallies--they were code words for inhibiting a woman's right to independence and mobility in matters of choice over her body.

The war is on. Its on women. And now, we're being talked of as property. Does everybody get WHY the Bush Rove machine couldn't talk about this directly during the campaign?

Girl, 13, denied an abortion

A pregnant 13-year-old has been blocked from having an abortion after state authorities in Florida won an emergency injunction, arguing that she was too immature to make such a decision.

The girl, identified only as LG, had been due to have her 13-week pregnancy terminated last Tuesday, and a social worker had been lined up to give her a lift to the clinic. However, she was thwarted in court.

"Why can't I make my own decision? It's my business," she told Judge Ronald Alvarez when he granted a temporary injunction while LG undergoes psychological evaluation.

"It would make no sense to have the baby," said LG, who became pregnant after running away from her care home in January. "I'm 13, I'm in a shelter and I can't get a job."

At the heart of her case is a wrangle over whether the wishes of the state, LG's legal guardian since her removal from abusive parents, can prevail over her constitutional right to choose.

The state's social services wing points to a Florida statute which states: "In no case shall the department consent to sterilisation, abortion or termination of life support."

We have to follow the law," said Marilyn Munoz, a social services spokeswoman.

John Stargel, a Republican state legislator, said: "The courts are the only arena to decide if a 13-year-old is mature enough to make that decision."

Yet the girl has appealed against the injunction, supported by the American Civil Liberties Union. Howard Simon, its executive director in Florida, said that forcing a 13-year-old to continue an unwanted pregnancy was illegal, unconstitutional and cruel.

Telegraph, London

Which one of these oh so do gooders is going to help this child to raise this baby the hypocrits, save the fetus, but who cares about the child,

JOIN THE ABORTION DISCUSSION!

"that means being afforded adequate health care for you and your children, a decent education that makes you a viable contributing member of society, AND an economic system that allows you to move forward, regardless of race gender age."

Unfortunately, not a whit of any of these things are in place,

Posted by: Fe at May 1, 2005 11:49 PM

Fe,

(Couldn't sleep so I am back at the computer.)

Thank you for taking the time to answer my query. Anyone else? This is a good exercise for this group, because I do believe there are many moderates who view it as I do out there in voter land. We are caught in that we sincerely believe the values, ideals, and principles the Dems have, but can't get over the abortion hurdle. I was not a one issue voter in '04, I voted for Kerry because I admire him, and the alternative was unthinkable, but again I find myself struggling with this. The framing about how it is better to take care of the people we already have doesn't solve the dilemma for me.

Also, Fe - Woops! I didn't mean for my previous post to read like I thought or expected social health care (although I think we should have it), or state-paid higher education, or social psychological care should be given all folks. That would be an unreasonable expectation, in my opinion. What I was referring to, and I am sorry I didn't make that plain, was that REGARDING THE ISSUE OF PREVENTING THE NEED FOR ABORTION, an escalated social program of reproductive and sexual health care, along with an escalated socially paid education of same, (coupled with funding for psychological help if needed when it applies to this issue), and escalated provision of free or affordable contraceptives, might provide an answer to many who struggle with this issue. If they can spend the money enforcing abortion laws, they can spare everyone alot of heartache, IMHO, by making a galiant attempt at preventing the need for abortion to a major degree by providing much needed care and services proactively.

Think about it. If everyone who is screaming no abortion dealt with the issue at the root, wouldn't it be saner and kinder than to put women through the procedure and statistical residual side effects after conception? That way, they are promoting health of the body and mind without the controlling arm of the law.

IMHO:

I personally still don't think they are going to go the distance to provide enough conservative judges to overturn Roe vs. Wade at this point in time. The object is power for the long term, not aquiescing to the religious right. If they give them what they want now, what is the carrot for the long term?

And, why can't my argument be a valid argument for the next Democratic candidate(s)? I think it is a GREAT argument, it shows the compassion and moral conviction the Dems have, and it cannot be argued away by the other side. It also, I might add, points out the lack of foresight and overall concern the Republicans have not only in caring for our own people, but in taking the initiative to be pro-active instead of reactive. Forcing a woman into having a baby she cannot care for, or will give away, or forcing her to a back alley is not compassionate. Dealing with this issue at the root is pro-active compassion, not knee-jerk legalistic reaction. And, I wonder how many greedy Republicans would really want to fund a proposal like mine when the idea caught on with the fundamentalists and Evangelicals? I think the religious right should start hitting the GOP in the pocketbook, (instead of placing all the burden on the voter), then see how long the marriage lasts! The religious right is there to put money IN the coffers, not take it OUT.

Join the discussion, folks! I really ask for your input!

Truth:

Your suggestion is actually the RIGHT one, and should have no party affiliation. We should work to maKE sure both conservatives AND progressives hold that view, which is far more encompassing than the polarized version we see today.

Moderates must rise- that means not just economic ramifications or just moral ramifications, but the consequences of both to come up with a policy that is balanced, fair and respectful of life, and that life's future.

That to me is true compassion, and governing with compassion.