The Separation of Church and State

Here is the tax law for one type of nonprofit - 501C3. http://www.nonprofits.org/npofaq/19/76.html

I don't know where churches fall but having political figures speak on huge screens via satellite connections to other huge churches and having a major political party have access to church roster lists seem like awfully blatant connections between a candidates and nonprofit religious organizations.

Political and lobbying activities (covers churches)

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=120703,00.html

Thomas Jefferson, on skepticism toward religious authority in government:

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man" (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion" (Letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800).

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).

I think that this law passed and churches can have three "unintentional violations" per year and then it has to be determined what constituted an "unintentional violation."

http://givevoice.org/ncna/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=2833739

Primarily Islamic religious groups called for specification by the IRS of what can be done by churches & mosques under the tax code and this resulted in the IRS coming out with a 28 page tax guide, which is available on the internet in PDF form.

I think it's good to learn about all this for at least two reasons - to be able to help preferred nonprofits without jeopardizing their tax status, to be able to help monitor the actions of the churches - are they on the level and are they doing what is legal and is the law being enforced.

I am happily protected by my 1905 law xhich definitely separated church and state.

It was integrated in the Constitution, the last one being that of the Fifth Republic and it says :
Article 1 of the present constitution promulgated on october 4 1958. " France shall be indivisible, SECULAR, democratic and social republic. it shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the LAW, without distinction ot origin, race or RELIGION. It shall respect all BELIEFS".

The law is the same for everybody religious or not in a seculat republic that respects all beliefs, but don't try to mix things you'll be breaking the law.

If you want to see how it was born and how it works in details.

http://www.info-france-usa.org/atoz/secular.asp

And you'll understand why fundamentalists hate it.

My before-work internet research reveals that churches have been regulated by the IRS since 1954. Recently, many have advocated for a new bill to be passed – the Houses of Worship Freedom of Speech Restoration Act – to reverse aspects of the 1954 bill stipulating that religious groups be allowed to maintain their tax exempt status only if they steer clear of politics.

Introduced by Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC), the bill seeks to amend the Internal Revenue Code to protect churches from being denied tax status, should a pastor, priest, or rabbi speak out on political matters.

In my mind, this would give the churches more power as bully pulpits.

The above newly proposed law is supported by rightwing groups and conservative churches, as can be swiftly surmised right here on the internet - what they do is champion their First Amendment rights. They say that the First Amendment guarantees that they can make political statements from the pulpit with impunity. They blame Lyndon Johnson for restricting Freedom of Speech of the churches.

The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." 

The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut.  Jefferson wrote:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

I sometimes turn to this site re these matters.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/const_am.htm

Some religious groups maintain either that the Constitution can be argued not to specify strict separation between church and state, or nowdays they may argue that separation between church and state is not desirable - and opens up the freeway to theocracy, in my opinion. 

Andree,

An interesting document - it appears that France is well protected from official aetheism and official theology by the provisions.

Theoretically, ours is very similar but these "usurpers" are trying to change the interpretation of the law, including the Constitution, and now they are constantly trying to change the Constitution itself.

Well off to work for me! I work for a church and I can't discuss politics but I can listen to prayer over the intercom. They pay me though.

DiAnne,

Thanks for your links. They will help me when I have a discussion with somebody who claims that "Black Churches do it all the time and nobody on the liberal side gets upset."

Bush blasts Amnesty report on Guantanamo
President says document is an ‘absurd report’

The Associated Press
Updated: 11:24 a.m. ET May 31, 2005

WASHINGTON - A human rights group's report about conditions at the U.S. military's prison at Guantanamo Bay is "absurd," President Bush told reporters Tuesday.

The Amnesty International report, released last week, said prisoners at the U.S. Navy base had been mistreated and called for the prison to be shut down.

The president, addressing a news conference at the White House, said the Amnesty document was an “absurd report.”

He said the allegations were based on interviews with detainees, who hated America and were trained to lie.

Bush's remarks echoed similar criticism by Vice President Dick Cheney.

“Frankly, I was offended by it,” Cheney said in the videotaped interview with CNN's Larry King. “For Amnesty International to suggest that somehow the United States is a violator of human rights, I frankly just don’t take them seriously.”

Washington’s defense of its detention and interrogation practices comes after weeks of international criticism and violent protests by Muslims outraged at reports — which the Pentagon says are false — that an interrogator at Guantanamo had flushed pages of the Quran down a toilet.

Iraq defense
On other issues, Bush said the fledging Iraqi government is “plenty capable” of defeating terrorists whose attacks on Iraqi civilians and U.S. soldiers have intensified.

“What you’re seeing is a group of frustrated and desperate people who kill innocent life and we obviously mourn the loss of every life, but I believe the Iraqi government is plenty capable of dealing with them,” Bush said at a Rose Garden news conference.

Bush spoke after separate air crashes killed four American and four Italian troops in Iraq. The governor of Anbar province, taken hostage three weeks ago, was killed during clashes between U.S. forces and the insurgents who abducted him.

The press conference was in keeping with the president's second-term pledge to hold at least one full-blown news conference each month.

The press conference began at 10:45 a.m. ET, with the president declaring that the nation’s economy was strong and getting stronger.

A quick translation of Bush's comments this morning...

the president declaring that the nation’s economy was strong and getting stronger ACTUALLY MEANS the economy is weak and getting weaker.

The president, addressing a news conference at the White House, said the Amnesty document was an “absurd report” ACTUALLY MEANS the report is accurate and I am on a discrediting mission by answering this question at all.

On other issues, Bush said the fledging Iraqi government is “plenty capable” of defeating terrorists whose attacks on Iraqi civilians and U.S. soldiers have intensified ACTUALLY MEANS that there is no way they are capable on their own, heck, we're having a heck of a time handling that ourselves... did I throw in enough folksy "hecks?"

Man, I'd love to have a beer with this guy... name the place & time.

The line between church and state has already been crossed in a big way here in Southern California.

This is the ONLY way to explain all the "VIVA BUSH" bumper stickers still on the Latino pickup trucks; to them (and to certain other immigrant groups, like Filipinos and Koreans, that are major influences here) the church is your chamber of commerce, matchmaking service, community center, your children's preschool, and a lot more - in other words everything - and if the church tells you Bush is your man, you vote Bush.

Bush, Rove and Company have manipulated these churches' fears well, such as abortion and gay marriage, and made significant inroads into these immigrant communities, which were just a decade ago fiercely Democratic thanks to then-(Republican) Governor Pete Wilson's crackdown on immigrant communities. In fact, Latino Protestants are already a large, reliable Republican voting bloc, and Latino Catholics will soon follow suit if current trends continue.

Let's see how California's upcoming constitutional ban on gay marriage will play out. It will be the next major wedge issue the churches will play - and these immigrant communities will ensure passage. They have already passed a ban in 2000, but it has recently been declared unconstitutional by a San Francisco court.

We must make sure that churches that do not cave into the hateful Republican agenda are rewarded - and that those that do cave in are punished with taxable status.

monKey,

Bush kills far more than he claims to save. The Iraq war itself is a killer, and so are his lax pollution controls, his destruction of the American healthcare system, and his summary execution of potentially innocent inmates.

He has no right to talk about the culture of life. His culture is that of DEATH. And the Vatican (especially Benedict XVI) must be ashamed of supporting his culture of death and intervening in American presidential politics by urging Catholics to deny communion to Kerry. And this perhaps is the worst church-state mix America has ever had.

Where is the outrage over the Vatican's usurpation of American sovereignty, when our conservatives rip apart the UN for much lesser sins?

OT:

Bush attempted to control the news cycle today, but his effort was thwarted when W. Mark Felt revealed himself as Deep Throat of the Watergate story. Rove et al. get a taste of their own medicine. I love it.

Fabulous work, Suz, and I couldn't agree with you more. The violation of the line between church and state is one of the most egregious treacheries ever in our democracy. Guys like Dobson & Robertson are hanging out with the likes of Rove & Santorum and are trying to force a particular brand of religious dogma on the country....and to them, just "believing" in God, or being a Christian is not enough...and not even acceptable....you have to subscribe to their brand of Christianity and only believe what they tell you to believe and only support the people or issues that they "approve" of you supporting...makes me think back to the Saducees and Pharisees in the New Testament that Jesus used to rail against all the time. As a Christian whose convictions couldn't be further from some of the wacko ideaology being spurted by these guys, I'm outraged, disgusted, angered....and I know and believe that nothing is more sacred or treasured in the United States than the separation of church and state --- after all, that's what prompted the pilgrims to risk their lives to cross the sea to begin with!

oncall I hope that Carlone Kennedy names Felt for the JFK Profiles in Courage award while Felt is still alive. This generation needs to study and learn from the history of Richard Nixon which I am sorry to say is being replayed today w/o any accountability

There is absolutely no way that if the Nixon saga were being played out today that we would have a Deep Throat, a Woodward and Bernstein or a Peter Rodino to take down Richard Nixon. They would be branded as traitors and sent to Guantanamo Bay. Seems as though John Dean is the only one who learned anything from Watergate.

Posted by: Ira at May 31, 2005 01:03 PM

Ira,

I completely agree with your assessment about how the Watergate scandal would be covered by today's infotainement industry. I was wondering why Mr. Felt revealed himself at this time? Was he possibly trying to bring some sense of urgency to how ineffective our country's media (and I use that term loosely) has become?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/31/national/main698727.shtml

Judge's Offer: Church Or Jail

LONDON, Kentucky, May 31, 2005

(AP) A judge has been offering some drug and alcohol offenders the option of attending worship services instead of going to jail or rehab -- a practice some say violates the separation of church and state.

District Judge Michael Caperton, 50, a devout Christian, said his goal is to "help people and their families."

"I don't think there's a church-state issue, because it's not mandatory and I say worship services instead of church," he said.

Alternative sentencing is popular across the country--ordering vandals to repaint a graffiti-covered wall, for example. But legal experts said they didn't know of any other judges who give the option of attending church.

Caperton has offered the option about 50 times to repeat drug and alcohol offenders. It is unclear what effect the sentence has had.

David Friedman, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, said the option raises "serious constitutional problems."

"The judge is saying that those willing to go to worship services can avoid jail in the same way that those who decline to go cannot," Friedman said. "That strays from government neutrality towards religion."

bu$h & cheney, still trying to control the message...the facts don't agree with bu$h & cheney:
-----------

Body of Provincial Iraqi Governor Found

By PAUL GARWOOD, Associated Press Writer
34 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - The kidnapped governor of volatile Anbar province was found dead after a fierce battle between U.S. forces and foreign fighters, a government spokesman said Tuesday.

In Washington, President Bush said Baghdad's fledgling leadership is "plenty capable" of defeating insurgents whose attacks on Iraqis and U.S. soldiers have intensified since the new Shiite-led government was announced April 28.

"I think the Iraqi people dealt the insurgents a serious blow when we had the elections," Bush said at a news conference. "In other words, what the insurgents fear is democracy because democracy is the opposition of their vision."

The insurgency, which is believed to be strongly backed by radical Sunni extremists, has killed more than 760 people in the past month.

continue~
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Posted by: sunflowergirl at May 31, 2005 01:33 PM

This is the same as forcing a prisoner to go to "worship services" in prison-it is illegal.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050528-032933-3179r.htm

Microsoft ends retainer with Ralph Reed

REDMOND, WA, May. 28 (UPI) -- Microsoft Corp. no longer has consultant Ralph Reed of Century Strategies, in Atlanta, under contract for $20,000 a month, the company has confirmed.

Microsoft spokeswoman Ginny Terzano said the decision to end Reed's retainer was part of routine reshuffling of consultants, the Settle Post-Intelligencer reported Saturday.

"I will confirm that Ralph Reed is no longer on retainer," Terzano, who added Reed was hired only to advise the company on "international trade and competitive issues." "He did not do any work on social issues for us."

Reed, currently running for lieutenant governor of Georgia as a Republican, served as chairman of President George W. Bush's re-election campaign for the Southeast, and led the Christian Coalition from 1989 to 1997.

Microsoft was attacked after it backed off its support for homosexual rights legislation in the Washington state legislature, which failed. The software company later reversed its position and earlier this month Microsoft said would actively support gay rights legislation in the future.

The company's decision to sever its seven-year on-and-off relationship with Reed was first reported Thursday on the Web site of Seattle Weekly, which cited anonymous sources.

oncall I don't want to be accused of living in the past but Watergate needs to be re examined for Nixon's abuses of power. Nixon's law violations are not the same, but the way this adminstration seeks to undermind the Constitution to some extent are worse.

My guess is that Felt is 91 years old in poor health and wanted to confront his legacy before he passes. Woodward and Bernstein swore not to disclose his id before the source died but didn't prohibit the source from disclosing his own identity.

I would love to see Zinn or dickbell or one of us do an in interview with Mr. felt for the sake of history and to ask Mr. Felt the question we all would like to know: whether he sees any similarities with this administration. I truly hope that Bernstein, Krugeman, Zinn or someone will be able to have this discussion and thank Mr. Felt for his service and sacrifice to this nation. His efforts were truly an act of the ultimate in patriotism and someone needs to let him know that.

[the DeepThroat ID story today brings up the inevitable comparisons between what Nixon did and what bu$hcheney did, using the power of the presidency...following are 2 articles published today, the first making the case for impeachment and the 2nd, on why it will be almost impossible given the current situation]

Ralph Nader/Kevin Zeese:
The 'I' Word: Impeachment

The impeachment of President Bush and Vice President Cheney, under Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution, should be part of mainstream political discourse.
Minutes from a summer 2002 meeting involving British Prime Minister Tony Blair reveal that the Bush administration was ''fixing" the intelligence to justify invading Iraq. US intelligence used to justify the war demonstrates repeatedly the truth of the meeting minutes -- evidence was thin and needed fixing.
snip~~
The president and vice president have artfully dodged the central question: ''Did the administration mislead us into war by manipulating and misstating intelligence concerning weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to Al Qaeda, suppressing contrary intelligence, and deliberately exaggerating the danger a contained, weakened Iraq posed to the United States and its neighbors?"

If this is answered affirmatively Bush and Cheney have committed ''high crimes and misdemeanors." It is time for Congress to investigate the illegal Iraq war as we move toward the third year of the endless quagmire that many security experts believe jeopardizes US safety by recruiting and training more terrorists. A Resolution of Impeachment would be a first step. Based on the mountains of fabrications, deceptions, and lies, it is time to debate the ''I" word.
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0531-23.htm

~~and~~
Norman Solomon:
Impeachment Fever and Media Politics

If you think President Bush should be impeached, it's time to get serious.
We're facing huge obstacles -- and they have nothing to do with legal standards for impeachment. This is all about media and politics.

Five months into 2005, the movement to impeach Bush is very small. And three enormous factors weigh against it: 1) Republicans control Congress. 2) Most congressional Democrats are routinely gutless. 3) Big media outlets shun the idea that the president might really be a war criminal.

For now, we can't end the GOP's majority. But we could proceed to light a fire under congressional Democrats. And during the next several weeks, it's possible to have major impacts on news media by launching a massive educational and "agitational" campaign -- spotlighting the newly leaked Downing Street Memo and explaining why its significance must be pursued as a grave constitutional issue.
snip~
In the past, attempts to impeach presidents for war crimes have sunk like a stone in the Potomac. If this time is going to be different, we need to get to work -- organizing around the country -- making the case for a thorough public inquiry and creating a groundswell that emerges as a powerful force from the grassroots. Only a massive movement will be strong enough to push over the media obstacles and drag politicians into a real debate about presidential war crimes and the appropriate constitutional punishment.
continue~
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0531-20.htm

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at May 31, 2005 02:39 PM

We are living my nightmare but this is my dream!

My Husband and mom both pointed out that Bush and his version of politics have damaged this country so badly that no matter who gets elected next time, its unlikely they will be able to repair much of it. Impeachment would be the first step in repairing much of the damage. If we start now we will have an aditional amount of time to start fixing this country and healing the divide. It is time for democrats to sh*t or get off the pot. As my grandparents and parents have always said!

Josh Marshall's TPM cafe got started yesterday- it looks good, John Edwards is a "guest blogger."

check it out: http://www.tpmcafe.com/

I can see it now... Bumper stickers, tshirts, hats, everywhere... with one word in bold (and I DO mean BOLD) letters...

IMPEACH

... and I am bringing back the two-fingered PEACE sign with a non-violent vengeance. Instead of waving hello or goodbye, even in photo's... it's the peace sign for me now... period.

Peace Out

I still remember early 2003, when a movie called "What a Girl Wants" came out, with Amanda Bynes (playing an American girl with a super-rich British father) holding up the two-finger peace sign on the poster. The peace sign was hastily removed by Warner Bros. (the distributor) because there was a Bush war going on in Iraq, and peace was therefore unpatriotic.

This is what the media has come down to.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/article/deepthroat31.html

Deep Throat confirmed as Mark Felt by Bob Woodward!

ClearChannel has more than that.They have 1200+ radio stations.

ClearChannel has more than that. They have 1400+ radio stations. At least they did a couple years ago.

I've had an "Impeach Bush" sign in my window nonstop for more than 4 years. Let's get on with it!