ON BEHALF OF PEOPLE LIKE ME, I'M RETRACTING THE DURBIN APOLOGY

Victoria,

I think it's a shame that torture is happening and it was approved by this regime. That is the bigger issue than what or who was compared. Frankly, I've heard both sides comparing the other to Nazi's and while they do not 'exactly' equate right now, promoting torture for Nationalism is not something to be proud of.

Awesome!

Its nice to know that Congress is once again preoccupied with dealing with all of the people's important, pressing concerns. We see where their priorities are.

Flag-burning amendment advances in House
WASHINGTON (AP) - The House moved Wednesday toward approval of a constitutional amendment that would give Congress the power to ban desecration of the American flag, a measure that for the first time stands a chance of passing the Senate as well.

Finally, some bi-partisonship...hmmm....makes me think the Republicans might be jumping off the NeoCON ship for next year's elections! Because how else can you explain their silence over the last year over Halliburten illegalities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/22/politics/22oil.html?ei=5090&en=16427fbcbe1ee553&ex=1277092800&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

VE,
thanks for writing this. I retrack his apology also.
I have been having many of the same thoughts, ever since I heard Senator Durbin's apology yesterday. I am among those who believe he should NOT have apologized.

This article in the WaPo today makes the case that using a certain analogy is always a lose-lose situation. To their credit, they include numerous times Republicans have also used similar rhetoric:
The Comparison That Ends the Conversation
Senator Is Latest to Regret Nazi Analogy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/21/AR2005062101753.html
"Jim Manley, spokesman for Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid yesterday provided a compilation that included, among other things, a statement from Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.) last year in which he said the Kyoto Protocol "would deal a powerful blow on the whole [of] humanity similar to the one humanity experienced when Nazism and Communism flourished." Reid's office also charged that Inhofe and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) had compared the Environmental Protection Agency to the Gestapo, that Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) had "linked stem cell research to Nazism" and that former Republican senator Phil Gramm "compared a Democratic tax plan to Nazi law."

All of this is consistent with the escalation of political rhetoric in general, says Deborah Tannen, a professor of linguistics at Georgetown and an expert on political discourse. She mentions the Senate debate over filibusters, in which the "nuclear option" loomed. And conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh, who rails against "feminazis." "It's all part of the same verbal inflation," Tannen says, adding that feminists generally refrain from torturing people.

There is a dictum in Internet culture called Godwin's Law (after Mike Godwin, a lawyer who coined the maxim), which posits that the longer an online discussion persists, the more likely it is that someone will compare something to the Nazis or Hitler.

According to the online encyclopedia Wikipedia, "There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress."

[....after reading this article, it occurs to me that I don't remember hearing much brou-ha-ha being made across this country when the Repubs made those statements. The press didn't pick it up and it never went any farther than a 1 day story, if it was noticed at all! So what comes through loud & clear to me is its "over-looked" if the Repubs do it, but if a Dem does it, it becomes a nonstop explosive issue for a week or more. Its yet another example of Repub hypocrisy.
That's one thought I've been mulling over.

My second thought is that with Bu$hcheney's Iraq war in such a dismal quagmire, Repubs and their loud echo chamber are just waiting, waiting for a Dem, any Dem to utter anything that they can then pounce on and turn into "Dems undermine our troops", etc. etc.
Just look at the "righteous indignation" Howard Dean went through last month, for saying much of what we all knew to be accurate. Last month it was Dean, this month, its Sen Durbin...I have no doubt another Dem will say something next week, next month that the media will exploit into the latest "Democrats gone wild" story. That's the genius of the right-wing echo chamber and they are far, far ahead of us in the "spinning/ using the media" dept.
We would like to say, "but the truth is on our side" and we should not get down to their level. Well, all things being equal, that is correct...but all things are not equal in politics in this country, it is not a level playing field. Most Dems I know believe in virtues like integrity, that winning is not everything in life, but its how we play the game. But in politics, the other party does not play by fair rules, they not only want to win, but they want to win by destroying their opponents. Didn't we just go through an election cycle where we witnessed the right-wing echo chamber target a highly decorated war vet and turned that into something of ridicule?!

My third thought is that once a Dem says something, whether its controversial or not, we have to do like Howard Dean and stand firm, no surrender. As soon as a Dem is bullied by the media echo chamber into apologizing, (even though we know in a perfect world, we should always have the grace to apologize), as soon as a Dem backs down, then it re-enforces the right-wing accusation of Dems==soft....do the Repubs EVER apologize for anything, and I do mean anything, including lying this nation into war? NO.
I'm with Howard, once you say it, then don't let them bully you into apologizing, especially if you know it to be true. Trying to explain what you meant, after the fact doesn't work in the political arena of today, because the Republican echo chamber will then use your apology against you too. I'm with Dean, stand up to the right-wing bullies= once you say it, no retreat, no surrender.

On to Victory -

I don't know why these folks continue to respond to the neocon noise machine...

There's no upside. It's a made up thing. If Durbin had said "go Cheney yourself," it would have been a lot better.

Sigh.

one more thought,
I posted this on a previous thread, but it really belongs on this one. This is from John Aravosis' Americablog:

I'm sorry
by John in DC -

Cheney wants an apology to the military and to our vets for those of us who have the audacity to criticize the brutal abuse of international and US law taking place at Gitmo.
And Cheney's right, we do owe everyone an apology. Here's mine:

- I'm sorry Bush told us there were WMD when there weren't.

- I'm sorry Bush told us Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda, and didn't.

- I'm sorry Cheney told us that Saddam's agents had met with Mohammad Atta in Prague, when he didn't.

- I'm sorry Colin Powell became so spineless that he threw his principles out the window and lied before the entire UN.

- I'm sorry over 1700 US servicemembers are dead in a war that was based on a lie.

- I'm sorry our soldiers are being told their own parents have to pay for their body armor, because the US military won't.

- I'm sorry the Bush administration lied about what really happened to Pat Tillman, and then lied to his parents.

- I'm sorry Bush demanded Saddam comply with UN inspections, then when Saddam did comply, Bush invaded anyway.

- I'm sorry Bush told us Mission Accomplished nearly 2 years ago, and the bloodshed continues.

- I'm sorry Bush told us the few incidents at Abu Ghraib were only isolated incidents, when they weren't.

- I'm sorry Bush told us 7 months before the Iraq war that he hadn't yet decided to invade, when he had.

- I'm sorry Bush keeps telling us the over 500 prisoners at Gitmo are such bad terrorists that they simply can never be released, but then Bush can't even come up with enough evidence to charge even one of them with jaywalking.
There's my apology. Wonder if Cheney and the GOP will sign on?

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/06/im-sorry.html

What happens in Gitmo and secret bases the US operates goes beyond torture.
Women are used to sexually humiliate and abuse Arab men, Their beliefs and practices are spit upon, urinated on and worse. What happens when these men and boys go back home...this is Democracy.?

There are several thousand pictures and videos of torture sessions that has not been released yet. There are stories relating rape, murder, and incredible abuse by US soldiers of Arab women, children and men, most of them innocent.

Bush is playing right into the hands of Al Queda, They needed the White House to react in this manner. While American armed forces are losing recruits, Men and Women run to enlist and fight American invaders that torture their neighbor. Osama Bin Laden understood History better than the President of the United States.

We have a foreign Policy based on creating terrorists, we have a secretary of State that squawks Democracy without understanding the work neccesary to prepare people for it. No Nation will follow this white house. They wil take the money offered, of course. But never follow them.

"Even if you count yourself among the angry, terrified Amurrkuns who feel that ANY behavior is justified by the existence of terrorism, I don't believe you can realistically say that it's helping us win the hearts and minds of the global community."

Sorry - I meant to say...

"Posted by Victoria Ellen at June 22, 2005 01:15 PM

One more time - sorry
"Even if you count yourself among the angry, terrified Amurrkuns who feel that ANY behavior is justified by the existence of terrorism, I don't believe you can realistically say that it's helping us win the hearts and minds of the global community."
Posted by Victoria Ellen at June 22, 2005 01:15 PM

My neocon brother lets me know time after time, agrument after argument, that he doesn't give a rat's ass (an exact quote) what the rest of the world thinks of us. I think, therein lies the problem. They just don't care. They think it is meaningless. We should be all powerful and all others should bow to us - they mean nothing.

(Finally got it all in!)

Carol --

I feel your pain. I, too, have a brother...

since Congress is telling us that the flag burning amendment is of vital national interest, does anyone know of any example of flag burning in their community.
Also what happened to their voting on stem cell research? That issue has totally disappeared from the Congressional radar screen. I guess that protecting unburned flags from being burnt is somehow more important than working to find a cure for Parkinsons.

And what really slays me in all of this? Is that they don't care that it's HURTING us... it's increasing the danger for our soldiers, it's undermining the entire effort in the Middle East, it's increasing the number and effectiveness of terrorists, and it's costing us the respect of traditional allies all over the globe...

And yet, they don't care. And I finally figured this out. They don't care because it's more important to these guys to maintain their power and pretend they're right than it is to achieve some level of success.

That just blows my mind.

We really have a jerk for a governor.
AUSTIN - Gov. Rick Perry thought he was off-camera, but a Houston television station caught the governor using an abbreviated version of a 12-letter word best left in the locker room.

And yet, they don't care. And I finally figured this out. They don't care because it's more important to these guys to maintain their power and pretend they're right than it is to achieve some level of success.

That just blows my mind.

Posted by: Victoria ellen at June 22, 2005 04:25 PM

...yes
and what is transparent to some of us is that the macho bravado need for total domination is really based on fear. But they'll never admit that, so they swagger on, insisting its their way or the highway, "you're either with us or against us", turning America into a bully nation, in their image.
So I ask, what's going to happen when the rest of the developed world, who owns the loans on our massive debt, come calling for payback on the loans?
The bully tactic is based on fear...always.

"Osama Bin Laden understood History better than the President of the United States. "
Toolmaker

That's the simplest and best explanation I've read yet on why we are where we are. Osama knew what he was doing- he knew what Bush's reaction would be, and he knew that our over-reaction would strengthen the Arab world, and now the rest of the world, against us.
Our president knows absolutely nothing about history, or he wouldn't have gone into this war in the first place. He didn't know the horrors of Vietnam, because he was a rich congressman's son who didn't have to go. And because the American people want a president who they can drink a beer with instead of a president who might possibly know what he's doing, we're stuck with him.
And now, today's news on Yahoo is that a giant popsicle has melted and flooded a New York park, sending pedestrians scurrying for safety.
Truth is stranger than fiction, that's for sure. Who'd have ever thought that only 4 years after the greatest prosperity and peace in our nations history, we'd be where we are now. And who'd have ever thought that popsicle would cause all the havoc it has........... :-)

Sorry, I know this is a serious blog, but I just had to inject that little piece to brighten up the day.

Carol and VE:

I, too, feel your pain. I have a brother...

Ira: Best left in the locker room? I like that word, but not nearly as much as I like a certain ten letter work that is usually heard during any episode of one of the only three programs I watch on a regular basis (the other two being 24 and TDS with JS). I had a lovely discussion with DiAnne on emorning on our joy that that particular word has made a comeback, just in time for the second term of this presidency.

Yet another sign that Bill O'Reilly is completely nuts.

"From the June 20 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: And when he [Durbin] went out there, his intent was to whip up the American public against the Bush detainee policy. That's what his intent was. His intent wasn't to undermine the war effort, because he never even thought about it. He never even thought about it. But by not thinking about it, he made an egregious mistake because you must know the difference between dissent from the Iraq war and the war on terror and undermining it. And any American that undermines that war, with our soldiers in the field, or undermines the war on terror, with 3,000 dead on 9-11, is a traitor.

Everybody got it? Dissent, fine; undermining, you're a traitor. Got it? So, all those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains, because they, you know, they're undermining everything and they don't care, couldn't care less."

Why is it when a Democrat criticizes the administration armed forces policy it's treason, but when a Republican does it, as they did NUMEROUS times during the Clinton administration, it's being patiotic?

Oh, and now that Durbin has apologized, the very next thing I would like to hear from him, is a request for an apology from Rick Santorum for calling Democrats Nazis.

oh, oh...so much for bu$hINC's theory that if we "fight them over there, we don't have to fight them over here"....
don't look now, but the CIA just told Bu$h: "Wrong!"

Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says

Wed Jun 22, 2:05 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The CIA believes the Iraq insurgency poses an international threat and may produce better-trained Islamic terrorists than the 1980s Afghanistan war that gave rise to Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, a U.S. counterterrorism official said on Wednesday.

A classified report from the U.S. spy agency says Iraqi and foreign fighters are developing a broad range of deadly skills, from car bombings and assassinations to tightly coordinated conventional attacks on police and military targets, the official said.

Once the insurgency ends, Islamic militants are likely to disperse as highly organized battle-hardened combatants capable of operating throughout the Arab-speaking world and in other regions including Europe.

Fighters leaving Iraq would primarily pose a challenge for their countries of origin including Saudi Arabia and Jordan.

But the May report, which has been widely circulated in the intelligence community, also cites a potential threat to the United States.

"You have people coming to the action with anti-U.S. sentiment ... And since they're Iraqi or foreign Arabs or to some degree Kurds, they have more communities they can blend into outside Iraq," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to the report's classified status.

continue~
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050622/pl_nm/security_iraq_cia_dc_1

I'm all for a Durbin retraction, even if we are the retractors!!!!! There is nothing to be sorry for when a man stands on the Senate floor and pleads with his colleagues to decry torture. NOTHING!!

Whatever happened on 9-11 is STILL not permission to torture anyone for any reason. Rendition is wrong. The dead of 9-11 are not honored by torture. There is no justice or dignity for them in torture. 9-11 was not permission to go off like a bunch of thugs in a street gang.

I've heard enough about 'offing' all the towel heads' and the A-rabs that got us on 9-11. I fail to understand how some guy in Gitmo for three years could possibly have any information usuable today. THREE YEARS have gone by, where is some detainee supposed to get info now?

Was it Gonzales that unleashed the sick bullies on people in American custody? Was it bad apples? Was it military or intelligence people doing the torturing? WHY DOES IT MATTER? Someone American decided that inflicting mental, emotional and physical pain on another human being was the American right to inflict.

And, it's some fatal sin to say gulag, or Stalin or Pol Pot, or heaven forbid Hitler. Then, please Senate Republicans, especially those of you who are also pro-lynching, what exactly shall we call American torturers? Should we call them good patriots? Should we call them protectors of our freedom and democracy? NO, no way. No way will I sit by and say that America can call itself justified just because the torture going on is 'not as bad as' _______. (fill in the blank)

NOT AS BAD AS.....meaning that when we do it to only, oh, say, a coupla hundred people it doesn't count? Humanity does not have the luxury of just being 'not as bad as.' When other countries and other dictators started out torturing and locking people up incommunicado in perpetuity, they all only STARTED OUT WITH A COUPLA HUNDRED too. They justified it to themselves and their people, didn't they? They had their good reasons. And, their people, some of them looked the other way, and some of them even cheered.

And, some of them, like us, have looked at the issue and have been sickened by it. Some of us will not let it be justified because we are told it's just a few bad apples and a few isolated incidents. One was too many. One umarmed, tied up, immobile person at American mercy, STILL has the right to expect better.

No human deserves torture. No human deserves to be locked away without trial. No human should be exported to a torture haven secretly. The people in American custody are not sub-human. They are not less than Americans because of their religion or country of origin, or their skin color.

For those people who think this is justice for 9-11, or that this isn't as bad as whoever, may you live to reap what you sow. Torture will begat torture. Hate will begat hate. Ugly is ugly no matter how hard you try to pretty it up. We don't win this way.

To dismiss it, or try to diminsh it, on the floor of our Senate, to try to deflect it, by attacking the words Seantor Durbin used, instead of looking at the REAL issue, torture ITSELF, is to be willingly blind. The torture does not go away beacause you will not look at it or name it or admit it.

So, Gitmo is not a gulag and American torture is not Stalinist or Hitler-like. Then I suppose American torure tactics will have to have their own monicker. Any suggestions? Anyone?

Yes, yes, yes! Again, to call Durbin: 202-224-2152!

I wanted to tell everyone what I did today. I've been teaching summer school to disadvantaged middle school kids. I was teaching them European history and today I had to tell them what democracy was. I broke down the word to "rule" by the "people." So I asked the kids, "We live in a democracy. Do you all rule?" At first, they said no. Then the most magical thing happened. I pushed them further. I gave them a few examples. Then I saw the look on their faces as they began to nod and say yes, in a way we can "rule." I asked them, "How do you rule?" They mostly said "voting," and one girl said, "freedom of speech," and someone even said, "because we can know what's going on." They were all smiling as I told them that democracy was something they have to DO. I don't think they had ever thought about it like that before. But they certainly liked the idea. It was really amazing. =)

oh, oh...so much for bu$hINC's theory that if we "fight them over there, we don't have to fight them over here"....
don't look now, but the CIA just told Bu$h: "Wrong!"

Iraq is now a terrorist training ground, CIA says

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at June 22, 2005 05:38 PM

O.T.V.4, Unfortunately, the White House is now using this information to their advantage. On a national nightly news program tonight the White House is answering this CIA info story via Scotty McClellan, thusly: "That is all the more reason we have to stay over there and fight this, because to walk away leaving all those TERRORISTS in that training ground, would be inviting them to train and infiltrate everywhere else." (I.E. fight the terrorists on foreign soil, they are growing in number, all American's are in worse danger, we have to eradicate all the terrorists in Iraq before we can leave.)

Haven't found the above in print yet, but it will be out as the White House's response to the flap about the CIA terrorist report probably within 24 hours.

We all know there is no eradicating all "those terrorists". A big percentage of "those terrorists" are native peoples who want their own governance. Iraq has NEVER been a "democratic" state. They don't want our brand of democracy which is taking their oil, living off their sweat, and letting a puppet government push America's kind of "religion".

Or that's what would have happened in the America I grew up in.

But of course, that was one of the many things we gave up after 9/11. The idea that we STILL have to hold ourselves to a different standard. Even though we were attacked - maybe BECAUSE we were attacked.

As far as I'm concerned, Senator Durbin has nothing to apologize for. Nothing.

So I'm going to retract his apology. He's a U.S. Senator and he works for me. It never happened.

But there is an apology due here. I hope that the rest of the U.S. Senate will do the right thing, and apologize to the American people for not standing up with Senator Durbin, and at least trying to get back the nation that we used to be.

Posted by Victoria Ellen at June 22, 2005 01:15 PM

I say AWESOME to. God it is so good to know there are people fighting this evil, but I would not hold my breath waiting for most of the Dem senate to speak out, I have been waiting for that for so long I have just about given up.

From Kangaroo Down Under

Frightning isnt it, that so mnay people can feel such distance and disregard, for the criminal actions, happening in the World Community in our name.

Kangaroo from Down Under

ssshhhhh. After 30 hours offline, I snuck on during a meeting...because I COULD!

I'm in Philly. Reading over the past two days, and catching up, in between wordsmithing documents. Will try to get on again soon...

Everyone--YOU GO!

And yet, they don't care. And I finally figured this out. They don't care because it's more important to these guys to maintain their power and pretend they're right than it is to achieve some level of success.

That just blows my mind.

Posted by: Victoria ellen at June 22, 2005 04:25 PM

Spot on, It has always blown my mind from day one

Kangaroo from Down Under

But they'll never admit that, so they swagger on, insisting its their way or the highway, "you're either with us or against us", turning America into a bully nation, in their image.
So I ask, what's going to happen when the rest of the developed world, who owns the loans on our massive debt, come calling for payback on the loans?
The bully tactic is based on fear...always.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at June 22, 2005 04:44 PM

I will never forget those words as long as I live they are imprinted in my brain like they were said yesterday, and my thoughts were F*** you you go it alone, into you criminal illegal war.

Osama Bin Laden understood History better than the President of the United States. "
Toolmaker

That's the simplest and best explanation I've read yet on why we are where we are. Osama knew what he was doing- he knew what Bush's reaction would be, and he knew that our over-reaction would strengthen the Arab world, and now the rest of the world, against us.
Our president knows absolutely nothing about history, or he wouldn't have gone into this war in the first place. He didn't know the horrors of Vietnam, because he was a rich congressman's son who didn't have to go. And because the American people want a president who they can drink a beer with instead of a president who might possibly know what he's doing, we're stuck with him.

No truer words were ever spoken

Kangaroo from Down Under

Durbin = sellout

These people are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I am sick of leaders with no courage.

As far as im concerned there are only two senators and 4 members of congress woth keeping and he was never on either list anyway.