Completely Predictable Hackery

firsties

Lockheed Martin profit up on missile system sales
http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2005-07-26T124421Z_01_N26714597_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-ARMS-LOCKHEEDMARTIN-EARNS-DC.XML

(Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp. the No. 1 U.S. defense contractor, on Tuesday reported a better-than-expected 56 percent increase in second-quarter profit, helped by strong sales of electronic missile systems and information technology services.

Lockheed, whose weapons and aircraft are staples of the U.S. military, also raised its full-year profit forecast, sending its shares higher in pre-market trading...

U.S. wins Kyrgyzstan's assurance on military base

Kyrgyzstan assured the United States on Tuesday that it could keep its base in the former Soviet Central Asian state to support American military operations in Afghanistan.

But remarks by the Kyrgyz leadership, under pressure on the issue from old ally Russia, fell short of providing the United States with an open-ended right to stay on as long as it wished.

"I wouldn't pack your bags," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told U.S. troops at the Manas base, 17 miles east of the capital Bishkek after talks with Kyrgyz leaders.

~snp

Rumsfeld's visit to former Soviet Central Asia highlights the rivalry with Russia in the region, some of whose members have huge energy resources and which is seen as a geo-strategic battleground in the "war on terrorism" and drug smuggling...

Link to 11:16 AM

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-07-26T133740Z_01_L26491800_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-USA-KYRGYZSTAN-DC.XML

BushCo forced to a realization that it's policy* toward N Korea isn't working

US, N Korea Envoys Meet in Beijing
NPR RealPlayer link
http://www.npr.org/dmg/dmg.php?prgCode=ATC&showDate=25-Jul-2005&segNum=3&mediaPref=RM&getUnderwriting=1

* regime change

This story won't get much attention this week and that is precisely why we should be paying attention to it to make sure that it doesn't passed by slipping under the radar screen. Currently 98% of all estates don't pay 'any 'estate taxes under the current estate tax law and a $1.5 million dollar exemption. Unfortunately voters don't understand as I have friends who don't have anywhere near $1.5 million dollars try and lecture me how oppressive America's estate tax laws are.
Democrats have proposed for years to raise the exemption from a $1.5 million exemption to a $5 million dollar exemption which will in turn protect all but the megafarms.
Some of us have been posting about how we need to be reaching out to western state voters in Colorado and Wyoming and New Mexico and the Dakotas who are the heartland and who's ranchers and farmers will benefit from a new $5 million dollar cap.
I know many here would disagree with this proposal but I would love to see Harry Reid and the Dems be out front on a new farmer/rancher friendly estate tax reform bill to co-opt the Republican bill to end all estate taxes which is not intended to help the farmers and ranchers in need but rather to fatten the wallets of Buffet and Gates who have testified before Congress that they are personally against the Republican proposal to end all estate taxes. Curious if other have any ideas how we can reach out to our Dem. friends with a Heartland Farmer/Rancher Estate Tax Reform bill before the Republican party does the unthinkable and reward their Pioneers.

Its just good politics to be seen as supporting reasonable tax reform and I think that Chuck might want to ad to this thought.

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senate Republicans will push for a vote this week on permanently repealing the estate tax even though the GOP appears to lack enough support to get past Democrats' objections.

The tax has fallen as a result of gradually escalating exemptions and decreasing rates since President Bush's tax cut in 2001.

In 2010, the tax will disappear. But without action by Congress, it will return with a vengeance in 2011, when the top tax rate on estates reverts to 55 percent and the exemption shrinks to $675,000.

This year the top rate is 47 percent and the first $1.5 million left to heirs is not taxed at all.

A small group of Republicans and Democrats has worked for months on a compromise that would limit the tax, called the "death tax" by its critics, to only the wealthiest families."

Heaven forbid!!!
"House opponents [to Senate plan requiring the president to come up with ways to cut America's oil demand by 1 million barrels a day by 2015] said the proposal would force Americans into carpools and automakers to boost vehicle fuel standards."

I'm not sure why they call it an Energy bill-- anything that deals with energy problems has been stripped out. As expected, it's the Bush regime Energy Company bill.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

US negotiators finish work on energy bill
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2005-07-26T080202Z_01_N2690468_RTRIDST_0_USREPORT-ENERGY-CONGRESS-DC.XML

House of Representatives and Senate negotiators finished work on Tuesday on energy legislation that aims to boost traditional oil, natural gas and electricity supplies and would double production of the gasoline additive ethanol.

The panel of lawmakers rejected a proposal to reduce U.S. oil consumption by 1 million barrels per day and also turned down a plan to require utilities to generate more electricity from renewable energy sources like wind and solar power.

The full House and Senate will vote on the compromise bill this week. President Bush on Sunday urged leaders of the conference committee to wrap up work on the energy bill this week so he could sign it into law by Aug. 1.

The ethanol compromise, which would raise production of the motor fuel additive to 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012, is larger than the 5 billion gallons approved by the U.S. House of Representatives, but smaller than the 8 billion gallons called for by the Senate.

Ethanol, derived mostly from corn, is a popular political cause in farm country, where it is regarded as a homegrown answer to oil imports and a boon to farm income.

It is usually blended directly into gasoline in a mix of 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline, which makes motor fuel burn more cleanly to meet federal air pollution requirements.

Ethanol is more difficult for oil companies to transport because it evaporates more quickly than conventional gasoline.

House negotiators voted against a Senate plan requiring the president to come up with ways to cut America's oil demand by 1 million barrels a day by 2015.

'RELENTLESS ADDICTION TO OIL'-SENATOR

"We have a relentless addiction to oil. We need to address it," said Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota and sponsor of the oil savings amendment. The United States has to import 60 percent of its oil to meet its 21 million barrel daily demand.

House opponents said the proposal would force Americans into carpools and automakers to boost vehicle fuel standards.

A separate Senate proposal that also failed would have required 10 percent of U.S. electricity to be generated by renewable sources by 2020.

Republican Pete Domenici of New Mexico, the chief Senate energy bill negotiator, said the electricity plan would have helped reduce U.S. demand for natural gas, which has increased in price due in part to new power plants fueled by gas.

Chances for the bill's passage have improved, after negotiators on Sunday dropped a proposal for legal protection for oil refiners that make a rival fuel additive to ethanol -- methyl tertiary butyl ether, or MTBE.

Rep. Joe Barton, Texas Republican and chairman of the energy bill conference committee, proposed creating an $11.4 billion fund to clean up water supplies caused by MTBE contamination in return for shielding refiners such as Exxon Mobil Corp. from lawsuits. But the plan was criticized by the oil industry, municipal water officials and key U.S. senators.

While Barton did not win liability protection for the oil companies, he was able to include language in the bill to permit new MTBE liability lawsuits to be reviewed by federal courts, setting a higher bar for such lawsuits to proceed.

CHANGE TO DAYLIGHT-SAVING TIME
A multibillion-dollar package of energy tax breaks and subsidies will be added to the bill. Negotiators are working on a compromise tax package of about $10 billion, which is higher than the $6.7 billion sought by the Bush administration.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan reiterated on Monday that the administration "doesn't think we need to be providing tax credits to oil companies when the price of oil is above $50 a barrel."

from 11:43 AM
"House opponents [to Senate plan requiring the president to come up with ways to cut America's oil demand by 1 million barrels a day by 2015] said the proposal would force Americans into carpools and automakers to boost vehicle fuel standards."
__________________

The same pukes who claim the market is the answer to any problem have so little imagination that they can't envision inventive people could develop in the next 10 years-- especially if they applied some of their tax breaks in the right places (instead providing corporate welfare to puff up profit margins)

I was looking to buy a new non hybrid car this past weekend and was amazed to see all of the V8 models with 300-400 h.p on some very popular models that is overkill in big city traffic jams. I told my wife how easy it would be for auto makers to shed a few pounds of steel w/o changing the looks,performance or safety and change these popular models from 19 mpg city and 27 mpg highway, over ten years at a 1 mpg increase per year and turn this fleet to 29 mpg city and 37 highway. It would save 100s of millions of gallons each year and wouldn't compromise safety, performance or looks. It could be done in a heart beat at minimal cost but I don't see it happening til gasoline hits $3-4 per gallon(which doesn't seem that far off) or we get a new leader in '08 that really cares about energy independence. As we recall that was how Toyota got its start in the 70s when American car makers didn't get the message and they started building fuel efficient models while American car makers continued to keep building these heavy gas guzzlers. Apparently 35 years later, and Detroit has learned nothing.
I think that JK was on to a great message of Energy Independence during the campaign. Perhaps a Kennedesque Message of Having Energy Independence in this Decade would have some resonance with voters in the '06 election.

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000180.htm#comments

I just left a joint hearing of the Senate Democratic Policy Committee and the House Government Reform Committee Minority on the "National Security Consequences of Disclosing the Identity of a Covert Intelligence Officer." The hearing was held at 10:00am in the Dirksen Senate Office Building (not the basement surprisingly) and televised live on C-SPAN3. If you did not see it, check for a re-run on CSPAN -- I highly recommend it. It was the most informative event on the issue of Rovegate I have seen.

My friends Henry Waxman and Senator Byron Dorgan were co-chairs of the hearing and we were joined by my former House Judiciary colleague (and now Senator) Chuck Schumer, Louise Slaughter, Jay Inslee and Rush Holt.

The witnesses were incredible, all former CIA officials, Larry Johnson -- a former CIA analyst and classmate of Valerie Wilson; Colonel W. Patrick Lang -- Former Director of the Defense Human Intelligence Service; Jim Marcinkowski, a former CIA case officer and fellow Michigander from Royal Oak; and David MacMichael -- Former Senior Estimates Officer from the National Intelligence Council.

They have joined other former CIA officials in sending an open letter to the House and Senate. Many of these officials, including -- I suspect -- more than one of the witnesses, are Republicans. In it, and their testimony, the debunked many of the White House generated myths about this case. Anyone with an open mind would have to have been persuaded that, regardless of who may have committed this crime, it is a very serious matter.

Among other things, I was most interested in testimony about the ripple effects a diclsosure like this has on all of our intelligence gathering capabilities in the war on terrorism. Colonel Lang, among others, aptly described the trust that is necessary to recruit and retain foreign assets to help us gather intelligence. When it becomes known that the United States does not protect its own covert assets, foreign assets begin to have serious doubts about whether the United States will protect their identities.

The disclosure of Mrs. Wilson's covert identity has other more immediate ripple effects as well. She had set up a front company, Brewster-Jennings, and the disclosure of her identity likely led to the disclosure of others affiliated with Brewster-Jennings and others affiliated with them. A web of connections literally can become unraveled when something like this happens.

I know many of the most ardent White House defenders are in denial about this and want to say the leak didn't matter. They rely on misleading and out of context quotes and deliberate deceptions about how covert operations really work to try to sow confusion.

The bottom line: The CIA, not Democrats in Congress, determined a crime was likely committed here and made the referral to the Department of Justice. Does anyone really think they don't know who is covert and who isn't? Moreover, after a disclosure like this, the CIA prepares a damage report on the totality of the impact of the leak. One was prepared in this case. Does anyone really think that if the report indicated that the leak didn't do any damage to national security, and the report was therefore helpful to the case of the Bush apologists, the report itself would not have been leaked by the Bush Administration?

Those who deny these essential facts are only delaying the inevitable. Something very wrong happened here, wrong on a number of levels -- legal, ethical and moral. This truth is going to continue to come out and the facts will not be in dispute.

Posted by: Ira at July 26, 2005 11:36 AM

Great idea about the farmer friendly estate tax proposal for Dems. Thanks for all the info.

Whenever I read a post with lots of accurate detail facts and a good idea coming from it, I know it's yours before i get to the byline.

You're a real asset to the forum.

For anyone who did not get to see Friday's hea
ring on the National Security Implications of Revealing a Covert Agent here is the transcript.

I highly encourage all of you to read it and then to use this information to write those LTE's as well as to direct people to read themselves.

http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/hearings/hearing23/transcript.pdf#search='transcripts%20hearing%20on%20Security%20Implications%20of%20Revealing%20Covert%20Agents%20Identity'

Amy thanks for the kind words but actually Chuck and I have been emailing and brainstorming about reaching out to red staters as he is now officially a Red Stater, and I have been absorbing What's A Matter with Kansas this week. Chuck has been bombarding me that we need to win over more farmers and ranchers especially those in the west. I am particularly sensitive b/c we came so close to carrying the state I worked in Oct, Colorado, overwhelming the Repubs in Denver with 71% of the vote but got crushed in Pueblo and Colorado Springs, communities sensitive to rancher's interests, like a $5 million dollar estate cap. Our Heartland bill has been talked about by Dems leaders going back to former Maine Senator majority leader George Mitchell years ago but went nowhere and received 0 attention. I got into a shouting match with my Florida Dem uncle who voted for Bush last time solely over estate taxes. He didn't believe me about the $1.5 million dollar exemption (his is over that) but did not take me seriously when I told him George Mitchel had proposed a $5 million dollar exemption.His comment to me I have never heard of that b/c Dems support my death taxes. I want to win Colorado in the worst way in '08 along with other heartland states as does Chuck and Dems get 0 credit for their own Estate Tax Heartland Reform bill, that Amy I would like to hear more about in the public media. Dems are always accused of just pushing tax increases and being on the side of city urban voters and against rural farmers and ranchers.
Chuck also had the brilliant idea of Air America beingbroadcast in Spanish and defarge reported that she spoke with Air America founders with plans of buying small hertland radio stations so many of our bloggers and Dem leaders, not just me is behind this heartland outreach plan. We need to just do more to make that message come to fruition with Dem lead legislation and framing saying that we care about the heartland voters.

on topic
Typical manuvering, deny until you can't deny any longer, then find a way to turn the sheeple's attention onto a sidetrack story...so Rove & Bu$hCheney are going to smear Fitzgerald now.
What's the Matter with Kansas Pat Roberts must have been tapped by Rove to announce he would start an investigation "into the CIA leak" because the DEM Senators are kicking up some noise and its getting coverage in the MSM press:

Democratic Senators Press CIA Leak Probe

By DONNA DE LA CRUZ, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jul 26,

WASHINGTON - More than two dozen Democratic senators on Monday asked Congress to investigate the leak of a CIA officer's identity.

"Americans deserve a Congress that holds Washington accountable for the truth about our national security," said Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., who authored the letter. "Can anyone argue with a straight face that Congress has time to look at steroid use in baseball but doesn't have the will to provide congressional oversight of the leak of a CIA agent's name?"

continue at yahoo news~
http://tinyurl.com/774tj

Good header, Casey.

Last night I posted excerpts from a piece about just how the neocons may have floated the false documents, and orchestrated the whole thing to look like the CIA was incompetent and at fault, should the truth come out. The whole article was a very interesting read....

It's only a THEORY, of course. (That's for Dick. ;-))

So this "investigation of the CIA" is no surprise at all. Turning everything back on the intelligence community was part of the plan. According to this theory.

Ira, I feel like I should be an honorary Red Stater, because I live in a very Republican area of WA and haven't any Dem representation beyond my congressman, who represents the closest city - just happen to be on the one street that's in his area. I'm in Skamania County. Rural, and red, red, red. I've got all these NRA lawn signs around me that say "I'm in the NRA and I VOTE"

Q:Is there a sign, any sign that even 1 GOPer will do their patriotic duty, and put their country before their party?
A: So far, NO

Rove Scandal: Looking for One Outraged GOPer
(It Ain't McCain)
The Political-Security Gap in Iraq

by David Corn

Washington scandals often have ritualistic moments. The Plame/CIA leak matter (also known as the Rove scandal) has had its share. There was the lack of attention from the establishment press for months (until the news leaked that the CIA had asked the Justice Department to investigate the leak). There has been dismissal from spinners. (Watergate was derided at first by Nixonites as a "third-rate burglary"; the Plame/CIA leak has been pooh-poohed by Bushies as no big deal.) There has been absurd stonewalling from the White House. ("We'd be delighted to tell the public what we know, but, alas, we cannot even say it's a no-no to leak classified information because an investigation is under way.")
continue~
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0725-29.htm

continue at yahoo news~
http://tinyurl.com/774tj
Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at July 26, 2005 01:18 PM

OTV4D... I found the last paragraphs of that article interesting, too (I'm surprised anyone dared print such a "challenge" to the administration, however!).

"There is no oversight of the White House in this Congress," Lautenberg said. "None — it's a free pass. And that is dangerous for the country."

Lautenberg also spoke on Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' statement Sunday that he notified White House chief of staff Andy Card after the Justice Department opened an investigation into who disclosed Plame's identity, but waited 12 hours to tell anyone else in the administration.

"Was there a 12-hour shredding party at the White House that night?" Lautenberg asked. "We don't know, but I hope that the prosecutor examines this troubling disclosure."
~~~~~~~~~

The mental strain of wondering what this administration is going to do to divert the attention of the media away from TreasonGate is a bit of a bother, but we all know it will happen, one way or another. I just hope the few reporters who have a spark of life in their tiny brains also get back to the TreasonGate story and the web of things connected to it, because it's all part of the larger story of how we were lied to (repeatedly!) about the reasons they kept inventing for the attack they wanted to initiate in the first place.....

Bu$h & Co. have never learned the one lesson one must learn when very young: Don't bother to lie. You have to keep track of what you said, to whom, why and when. It's ever so much easier to tell the unvarnished truth; there's nothing to keep track of then, and it's no strain on the brain to remember what you said to whom and why....!

that makes you very brave to be surrounded by NRA folks Amy. At least you have the rest of the state to rely on. Sounds like rather than a north/side divide your state has an east/west divide.
Republicans attacking the CIA, sounds more and more like what we heard in 1972. Seems like Roberts got along ok with Rockefellow during the 911 Commission Hearings but that now Republicans have decided to go nuclear against Wilson b/c they fear that idictments are eminent. Casey, whenever I see Repubs savaging Dems it usually means we have hit a raw nerve and are on to something with voters and Repubs like Roberts and Brownback fear they are about to lose power. Republican neocons do not believe that Dems are ever entitled to control the reins of govt even after folks like Bill Clinton have just won a convincing re election, so they strike out. Perhaps that is what they sense now, the reins of govt slipping out of their hands. Let them overreach, it only seems to do their own part more damage. Note Newt Gingrich and Frist over Terry Schiavo.

So this "investigation of the CIA" is no surprise at all. Turning everything back on the intelligence community was part of the plan. According to this theory.

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 01:30 PM

Not so much of a "theory" Amy... :-)

They already tried to blame the CIA and the FBI for faulty intelligence when the web of lies was first being concocted.... (Clarke, Rowley, et al.) It wasn't the intel that was faulty, it was the "interpretation" of the intelligence that was faulty... Got Bolton?!?

Lautenberg also spoke on Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' statement Sunday that he notified White House chief of staff Andy Card after the Justice Department opened an investigation into who disclosed Plame's identity, but waited 12 hours to tell anyone else in the administration.
Posted by: NonnyO at July 26, 2005 01:54 PM

Gonzales may have waited to tell anyone else except Card, but you can bet Card told plenty of people including Scooter Libby. (Gonzales admitted that "most" people had gone home already that night, but there were still "some" people around; We all know how offices work and we can only imagine who was left working at 8pm...)

I do believe Gonzales when he said he waited to tell the president until the next morning; 8pm is too close to the prez's bedtime...

talking about Bolton, has anyone heard anything about Bolton's status in over a month?
Also would like to know if the Ohio Democratic Party has ever found the scondrels who keep breaking into their campaign office and stealing their data bases. Again not ever heard anything more about that or Coingate stories since they were reported quite awhile ago.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at July 26, 2005 01:52 PM

Whatever respect McCain could have had from any Dems is now gone since he keeps on being a false mouthpiece for the Bu$hCo administration.

I still remember his kow-towing speech and body language at the RNC.... Urge to hurl....

so what else is new?
John Kerry was right, Bu$h was wrong.
I hope the historians of the future look back at the 3 presidential debates and study all of JK's answers. They need to document that Kerry is turning out to be right on everything and Bu$h dead wrong.
Now Rumsfool & Gen Myers agree, the GWoT needs a new name:
(from Americablog):

Remember last year when Kerry said that the war on terror needed to be fought just as much with intelligence and diplomacy as with the military? Remember when Bush et. al. eviscerated Kerry for being a big girlie-man for suggesting this wasn't a real man's war where we'd just send Rambo in to kill all the bad guys? Well, guess what. Now the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Rummy both agree with Kerry.

U.S. Officials Retool Slogan for Terror War
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/politics/26strategy.html?
In recent speeches and news conferences, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and the nation's senior military officer have spoken of "a global struggle against violent extremism" rather than "the global war on terror," which had been the catchphrase of choice. Administration officials say that phrase may have outlived its usefulness, because it focused attention solely, and incorrectly, on the military campaign.

Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the National Press Club on Monday that he had "objected to the use of the term 'war on terrorism' before, because if you call it a war, then you think of people in uniform as being the solution." He said the threat instead should be defined as violent extremists, with the recognition that "terror is the method they use."

continue~
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/07/so-john-kerry-was-right-about-war-on.html

I do believe Gonzales when he said he waited to tell the president until the next morning; 8pm is too close to the prez's bedtime...

Posted by: madame defarge at July 26, 2005 02:02 PM

True.... However, it wasn't too late for the toadies to have a shredding party to protect their "leader" from himself and cover their own a$$e$ at the same time.....

Posted by: Ira at July 26, 2005 02:04 PM

Bolton: MIA but given the article yesterday about his potential recess appointment, there must be an APB out for him.

The Toledo Blade has been reporting lots about Tom Noe and coingate in the last few days, but it's clearly not making national news. Check out this link and you'll find lots of recent articles...
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=NEWS24

OK, here's another one:
During the debates, John Kerry said that the US should do both, bilateral AND 6 party talks with North Korea.
Bu$h was adamant, "NO one-to-one talks with NK.)

Just announced, the US is resuming one-to-one talks with NK.
Kerry was RIGHT.
Bu$h was dead WRONG:

Conciliatory tone marks resumption of North Korean nuclear talks

47 minutes ago Yahoo news

BEIJING (AFP) - The United States reassured North Korea it viewed the country as a sovereign nation which it would not attack, as a new round of talks began to address the North's nuclear weapons programs.

North Korea also struck a less confrontational tone, announcing that it wanted to work towards a nuclear-free Korean peninsula in language observers saw as a positive sign that progress could be made after a 13-month deadlock.

The US approach, just months after Washington described the secretive Stalinist state as an "outpost of tyranny," will go some way to placating the North which has long urged the US to recognise it as a legitimate government.
snip~
"We view the DPRK's sovereignty as a matter of fact. ... And we remain prepared to speak with the DPRK bilaterally in the context of these talks," chief US envoy Christopher Hill said in opening remarks.

The Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea is North Korea's official name.

The softer line from Washington, which was instrumental in bringing North Korea back to the negotiating table, followed a rare bilateral meeting between the two sides Monday.

continue~
http://tinyurl.com/7wsyu

[the NeoCon war] from TomPaine:

In recent weeks, commentators from both sides of the political fence have tried to make sense of the recent London bombings. The neocons and their fellow travelers are among these. But they have another, more immediate concern. They’re eager to decouple the tragedy in England from the U.S./British occupation of Iraq. That’s because they seek to prevent further erosion of popular support for the Iraq war, which could mean the end of their imperial ambitions in the Middle East.
snip~
Americans, with the latest barbarity in London, are becoming increasingly aware that the war in Iraq is a misadventure into which they were misled by weapons of mass deception, many of them invented by the neocons.

Lying and neoconservatism are becoming synonymous in the American language, and “liberating” Iraq is now seen as the neocon fabrication par excellence. So why should we believe their latest fiction—that terror has nothing to do with Iraq—so that they can keep us fighting in the Middle East for reasons we don’t even know?

continue~
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050726/defending_the_neocon_war.php

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050726/us_nm/iraq_abuse_dc
Military dog handlers face Abu Ghraib hearing
By Sue Pleming 1 hour, 5 minutes ago

FORT MEADE, Md. (Reuters) - Two dog handlers in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison used unmuzzled dogs to threaten prisoners and competed to see who could make inmates urinate on themselves, according to testimony at a military hearing on Tuesday.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Looks like now they are going to blame the dogs.... not Rummy and any others in the chain of command starting with the top brass in the White House or the Pentagon for condoning torture in the first place....!!!

It's the dogs' fault?

Clinton must be slipping....

I've got to say this now, and get it off my chest. I'm one of those people who does not want a 'gate' referral anymore. There is no Rovegate, Treasongate, Plamegate, DSMgate, Nigergate. Not everything is a 'gate'

I've talked to people who are not following all this 'gate' talk. They don't know who did what, when they did it, or if any laws have been broken and they don't care to find out. WHY??? Because they have suffered years of things being called a 'gate' that never amounted to anything on the level of Watergate.

We give a cheer for the WH briefing when Scottie does the no comment dance every day, but seriously, how many people even know there is a DAILY briefing, let alone watch it or go on line to read a transcript? What they end up reading in their little daily papers or on the cable news is that the 'GATE' is heating up.

Ohhhh my, David Gergen finally said 'What did the president know and when did he know it' Big news that. Go out and ask someone if they know who David Gergen is.

I'm resolved to the fact that the MSM is not going to jump all over the truth and 'splain it in plain English for the people/sheeple. John Conyers can sing out the DSM to us the choir, and maybe he picks up a few followers along the way, but does the average Joe/Jane on your block even know who Conyers is?

So, why continue with the 'gate' frenzy?

Right now at least, the Republicans are still stuck together and standing firm. There is no one 'jumping ship' They all support the war, Rove, Bush, and each other. Ignore it, lie about it, smear someone and their problems go away.

I've been trying to prepare myself for the shock when the Fitzgerald investigation goes belly up, the DSM sinks to the bottom of the ocean, Roberts gets confirmed, and Rove keeps his job. There is every possiblility that it's all going to happen just this way.

WHY??? Because we are going to be stuck swinging on our 'gates' The minority isn't going to succeed in getting anything on the floor of the house and senate. The announced investigations are a set up to decide what the majority has already decided, Plame/Wilson wasn't NOC, there was no harm, no foul, Fitzgerald is a kook needing to be shut down and no one in the WH broke a law. Any hearings by the majority are going to be a whitewash, plain and simple. We know that in advance, right?

Garnering public outcry takes more than announcing that something is a 'gate' People have grown weary of hearing 'gate' talk. Remember, 9-11 changed everything. Sometimes, I think I'll be ill when I hear some dumb ass use that line when they want to accept things as they are. It saves them from having to face the truth or ask questions. Besides which, somehow asking questions is unpatriotic and it means you don't support the troops. So, don't give them the 'gate' They can ignore that oh so easily.

Has anyone heard of a well written piece that isn't filled with accusations and legalise, that is easy to follow? Again, I have to say that there is too much talking above what the sound-byte American will pay attention to. You better get them in the first thirty seconds or you lose them. Say '_______gate' and they move on.

I've thought that there are a number of excellent writers on this site. There are people who could put together a readable piece, that would be printable, and easy to hand out. Forget the 'gate' and write something that questions the party before national security WH. Explain the secrecy, connect the dots for people. Point out the places where trails go cold, and where information is withheld. When we don't know something, say so.

But, please, stop the 'gate' treatments. Whatever we do to spread the information to people, and no matter how long it takes, don't let it be a 'gate' Along with that, name the names of the people in our government who do not question, who are not rising up for our sakes, no matter what their party. If you can't say 'lies' then get out of the way. Stop writing letters to the president, and holding non-covered news conferences and come sit on our porches and explain where you stand, with your party, with your re-election in mind, or with the people. You want us on election day, start talking to us now. WHAT HAPPENED Senator _________? Imagine Democrats holding front porch talks with people all over the country. Town halls of truth. They could plainly and simply state that they want the truth out, and the American people to judge, but that being a minority in Washington means that without help from the people, our voices are being stifled. This is what it means to be ignored, pushed aside, left behind.

The WH is not going to lose anything because of our frantic 'gates' They just keep on keeping on with the power they have, and the hubris that seems to be bottomless, and we keep saying 'but there's a gate there' Don't you have to wonder at how tight they are sticking together? Is it the 'last throes' or do they STILL know they are untouchable? If the teflon is holding, then maybe it's because they know, smugly, that a 'gate' isn't going to cut it?

OtV4D -

I think that "conservative" is becoming synonymous with invasion of privacy, wild deficit spending, unbalanced budget, corporate elitism, trade deficits, outsourcing of jobs, military aggression, no dipomacy, and most importantly, concentration of power in the executive branch of gov't.

Not the way it used to be.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:01 PM

Sounds like a StopGate conspiracy to me...

(Your point is well taken and, as usual, right on the mark, tutterfly.)

Tutterfly, I've had the same thoughts regarding the "gate" label.

On the other hand, we do need a label. Labels work, whether we like them or not. Three syllables works well. Any suggestions, folks?

I keep thinking of Joe Wilson repeating over and over that it's not about the leak, it's about the web of lies....

Posted by: Ira at July 26, 2005 12:17 PM

Don't be so kind to Toyota... Remember that John Roberts (Bush's Supreme Court nominee) defended Toyota's US operations' right to fire workers who suffered work-related injuries. At least Toyota's southern sweatshops are no heaven. I won't let the Prius and the upcoming Lexus hybrids deceive me here.

Seriously, things are so dismal that even 19/27 gas mileage is considered "decent." Daily commuters should do better than that - like the European holy grail of the "3-liter" car (as in 3 liters per 100 km).

For a label, how about "The Niger Con"? That's what it was - a huge, well orchestrated, well planned con.

Now what we need is a sting....

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 03:22 PM

How about something more encompassing...
The Neo-Con Con

Judiciary Democrats seek investigation into why probe took so long; Sixty-seven days?

Michigan Democrat John Conyers and nine Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee issued a letter to the U.S. Inspector General calling for an investigation into a 12-hour delay between the Justice Department learning of the outing of a CIA agent and telling the White House to preserve documents, RAW STORY has learned.

Perhaps more significantly, however, Judiciary Democrats point to the 67 day gap between the time the CIA called the Justice Department to investigate the CIA outing and the time that the Justice Department directed the FBI to investigate the matter.

"It appears the now infamous 12 hour delay the Justice Department granted the White House before issuing an order to preserve documents was not an isolated instance," Conyers remarked. "I received information from the Central Intelligence Agency indicating a pattern of foot dragging by the Justice Department before it would commence a criminal investigation, or even respond to CIA requests."

"While the Republican Congress prepares to launch hearings, which appear to be fishing expeditions designed to discredit the Special Counsel investigating this matter, it defies reason that it would not investigate the DOJ's obviously partisan administration of justice," he added.

A letter written to the U.S. Inspector General follows:

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Judiciary_Democrats_seek__investigation_into_12hour_0726.html

Oh, Madame---

I just can't take the 'gate' stories to people anyome and say READ THIS!!!! It isn't sinking in. We're at war against terra you know, and the presnitwit is a man of God, resolute, etc. etc.

And, now with Roberts on the red carpet, we all get to debate abortion. AGAIN. Roe v. Wade is under attack, so stop looking at the WH. Or Roe v. Wade is almost gone, I'm off to church to light a candle in gratitude. And, those gay people, we haven't morally boxed them up yet, but the morally religious Christian elections of 2006 are coming up. YEAH GOD!!!!!

Doesn't anyone but me see it? 2006 is going to be another election about morals, not facts. If we don't soon get a platform that people can get behind, we will once again be the disorganized Democrats, sans message. There are already people running for Prez in 2008 who aren't doing a thing about the here and now. I'm sick to death about Hillary in 08 talk. Not yet, I keep saying. Stop running for prez, and run TO the truth now.

The war was a lie. It was not faulty intelligence. It was not well planned. It was not about avenging 9-11. (preach, tut, preach) But, it's not 'WARGATE'

I'm dying for any politician to come out and say to the American people that it's lies, all lies, damned lies, and that this sorry mess of a presidency has got to be stopped. Plain talk. And, when the Red attack machine comes calling, no backing down. Instead, the no direction Democrats need to sing in unison, and say flat out, that if they are damning their political careeers, better to commit political suicide for the truth, than to be re-elected protecting a lie.

Label:
Lying S.O.B.(Son Of Barbara)and the killer choir.

Shorter label: Killer government scandal.

Even shorter: Liars in control .

Even shorter:Death for oil

Even shorter: Bushco Lies

I agree that labels work. And, i've been to sites that are all trying to come up with some kind of cutesy name that people will pay attention to. Why be cute? Why not tell it like it is.

Bush runs a death machine, doesn't he? He conned the American people, right?

DEATHCON.

Stop running for prez, and run TO the truth now.

The war was a lie. It was not faulty intelligence. It was not well planned. It was not about avenging 9-11. (preach, tut, preach) But, it's not 'WARGATE'

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:29 PM

Amen Tutt.

...it's lies, all lies, damned lies, and that this sorry mess of a presidency has got to be stopped

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:29 PM

You are so on the button.

That is the slogan, the brand, the "gate", as it were.

LIES!

Or better yet, "WE CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH"... after all, if it's all about morals, doesn't truth telling rank right up there?

Show them the Gate!

Was "Moral Bankruptcy" slipped in as an additional tax write-off or something when the Republican backed Bankruptcy Bill passed recently? I only ask cuz the filing for such cases appear to be at an all-time high.

Moral or lessal.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:29 PM
tutt, I do think you're right - they'll play the morals card again...all the more reason to uncover the truth behind the lies (if that makes any sense). While we may not have many politicians jumping up and down yelling "Liar! Liar!" right now, I do believe that we are chipping away at this regime's facade -- albeit, slowly. The implications of Rover, the Valerie Plame case, and -- most importantly -- the failure in Iraq are starting to make lots of unassuming people ask questions. I don't know if you caught the earlier post by monkey ( @ 9:54 AM), but even today, the front page (!) of the Wall Street Journal posted an poignant article about Stuart Bowen, a "former Bush Administration aide and continued loyalist who has criticized the President's handling of Iraq reconstruction" http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Bush_aide_turns_critic_on__0726.html

I can always have hope that people are waking up to the realities of this regime. Sometimes it's all that gets me through the daily news...

Posted by: oncall at July 26, 2005 03:36 PM

I know it's not original, but it hits home...
Bush Lies, People Die

But, the question still is---

Who are the keepers of the truth? Which truth is more true right now? The truth that comes from party spin, or actual facts? Will the truth be murdered on the alter of the Republican party platform for the sole purpose of keeping power? And, who will step forward and not allow the truth to die such a horrible death?

If the truth dies, who will we blame? The liars or the people who failed to stop the lies? If one refuses to call out a liar, doesn't that embloden the liar to tell another lie, and then another and yet another? Isn't there some sin in allowing yourself to be lied to? Doesn't that put some of the culpability for the lie on the persons who accept it?

Political expediency is no excuse for playing the political game. Not when the price is death. How many people have to die for a lie? How much is a political career worth if it's covered in innocent blood? Does one gain a pass from this bloodbath if one is in the minority party? Is that what we expect from anyone who seeks any type of leadership position? That you are exempt from telling the truth if it might hurt in the polls?

Yes, we can take the truth. But, who is going to tell it?

I'm dying for any politician to come out and say to the American people that it's lies, all lies, damned lies, and that this sorry mess of a presidency has got to be stopped. Plain talk. And, when the Red attack machine comes calling, no backing down. Instead, the no direction Democrats need to sing in unison, and say flat out, that if they are damning their political careeers, better to commit political suicide for the truth, than to be re-elected protecting a lie.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:29 PM

YES, YES, YES!!!!!

I'm sick and tired of the word "misled." Misled, my A$$!!! We were LIED TO - over and over and over and over and the LIES keep coming at us daily. Back to the "cognitive dissonance" phrase from the Kerry blog.....
~~~~~

I know it's not original, but it hits home...
Bush Lies, People Die

Posted by: madame defarge at July 26, 2005 03:49 PM

Works for me.... simple and to the point for the sheeples with a bumper sticker attention span....

Tutter, that is good solid National strategy. Valour and Courage attract voters.

If the DNC were to adopt, expand, support the people using that strategy, we would win Elections again.
However it would require the DNC to actually engage a National strategy, so this will gather dust along with the other 999 incredible ideas the Kerry Edwards and now the DCP blog offer up.

The AFC-CIO are splitting, lots of excuses why, but the cause is lack of Vision and National Strategy. Maybe the DNC could learn something.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 04:06 PM

GREAT questions....

The problem I'm having with listening to Dem politicians now is that too many of them are trying to "play nice in the sandbox"... which ALSO aids and abets the neoCon cover-ups because too many of the Dem politicians have adopted the code-speak neoCon language to try to get people to listen to them. (Wrong move, IMHO.)

You can't play nice in the sandbox when the opposition keeps throwing sand in your face and your eyes, which effectively makes you also keep your mouth closed.... There must be a point where you either let them bury you in sand, or stand up, walk away, clean yourself off, then go turn on the water spigot full blast on the garden hose and start spraying the sand-throwers with cleansing water....

Dems need to learn to speak again, and speak in words that do NOT mimic the neoCons.... Short simple words sheeples can understand....

Instead, the no direction Democrats need to sing in unison, and say flat out, that if they are damning their political careeers, better to commit political suicide for the truth, than to be re-elected protecting a lie.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:29 PM

Them's wise, fightin' words.

Ah, but you see, valor and courage get spit upon these days, don't they? Swiftboating is the new national normal of politics.

So, why not come out, with nothing more than the truth, and say that you expect to be murdered politically for this truth, even possibly by your own party, but that you have placed honesty above politics, for the good of all of us, and that if support for the truth is to be politically damned, at least you were not an agent of the death of the truth?

I would vote for anyone at this point who would come forward and say they are not playing the game anymore. Here it is folks--the ugly truth. I'm giving it to you to deal with, because you have no right to be blind. If you take your vote from me because you don't believe me, so be it, but don't take your vote from me because I demanded that you do your duty as an American and face the truth.

Spit on me, and I will still tell this same truth. I have only one truth to tell, not multiple, shifting truths for you. If being lied to suits you, then you should vote for the lies. There has been no time in history that the truth is shuffled aside in favor of a political gain. This time, I have nothing to gain, and everything to lose by telling you the truth. But, I will tell you this, if the truth dies, one politicians career will be meaningless against all losses, death, and destruction.

Thats' my candidate, anyone have him/her handy???

"too many of them are trying to "play nice in the sandbox"
Posted by NonnyO at July 26, 2005 04:20 PM

That's our perpetual problem - we're too nice. The good thing about Howard Dean is that he is not afraid to tell it like it is - lay it on the line and be tough in return. And then he gets slapped by his own for having what it takes to fight back.

I'm not condoning ruthless shady tactics - but telling it like it is is the only way to get it done.

The American People Have Been...

I believe the word is DECEIVED.

Purposefully, knowingly, outright, blatantly, without shame, shadow of conscience or regret...

DECEIVED!!!

Is that not treasonous to the Constitution and the American People?

The Neocons just floated all of it on out there...

Hang Time!

Sounds Peachy to me...

Impeachy even...

Got Shackles?

Music by Elton John
Lyrics by Bernie Taupin

Holy Moses I have been removed
I have seen the spectre he has been here too
Distant cousin from down the line
Brand of people who ain't my kind
Holy Moses I have been removed

Holy Moses I have been deceived
Now the wind has changed direction and I'll have to leave
Won't you please excuse my frankness but it's not my cup of tea
Holy Moses I have been deceived

I'm going back to the border
Where my affairs, my affairs ain't abused
I can't take any more bad water
I've been poisoned from my head down to my shoes

Holy Moses I have been deceived
Holy Moses let us live in peace
Let us strive to find a way to make all hatred cease
There's a man over there what's his colour I don't care
He's my brother let us live in peace
He's my brother let us live in peace
He's my brother let us live in peace

Hey, Tutter, I'd vote for you.... :)

Italy Seeks Arrest of 19 US CIA Agents
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/072605J.shtml
In a further strain on Italian-US relations, an appeals court in Milan issued arrest warrants Monday for six more purported CIA operatives accused of helping plan the 2003 kidnapping of a radical Egyptian Muslim cleric.

{{{ Y'know.... I just can't quite believe trained and genuine CIA agents would be as sloppy as this group purports to be with leaving a paper trail all over Italy.... The CIA has declined to comment. However, given the fact that there are so many mercenaries (aka private security officers) who have been hired by the Bu$hCo administration via Halliburton (BKR, DynCorp, et al.), I have to wonder if the people who kidnapped the person in Italy were real CIA agents...??? This stinks of Rovian slime somehow - to get back at Plame & Wilson for outing the administration's lies (not to mention the recent revelations by the ex-CIA agents at Friday's hearings), and to get back at the CIA for giving the administration accurate intelligence years ago which the Bu$hCo administration "interpreted incorrectly," do you think they intend to somehow take down the entire agency, and maybe the FBI to boot....????? There now exists someone who has been put in charge of "interpreting intelligence" which is a moronic idea (and wasted taxpayer money for the salary the guy is getting) when the only thing the neoCons do is make truth into LIES so they can "justify" their illegal actions.... Still, this botched "CIA" operation in Italy stinks of amateurs, not professionals....}}}

"Swiftboating is the new national normal of politics."

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 04:28 PM

Ah...so what you are saying is they turned the tables, so to speak...reversed direction...even flipped a few words around...

So...Swift Boating...SB for short is just their cute was of saying Bull Sh*tting...

It's all BS to me...I mean SB...

Lies, lies, lies...

Where are the Rolling Stones when you need them?
Lies
M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Lies, dripping off your mouth like dirt
Lies, lies in every step you walk
Lies, whispered sweetly in my ear
Lies, how do I get out of here?
Why, why you have to be so cruel?
Lies, lies, lies I ain't such a fool!

Lies, lies in my papa's looks
Lies, lies in my history books
Lies, lies like they teach in class
Lies, lies, lies I catch on way too fast
Fire, fire upon your wicked tongue
Lies, lies, lies you're trying to spoil my fun

Lies, lies you dirty jezebel
Why, why, why, why don't you go to hell?
Why, why you think me such a fool?
Lies, lies, lies honey that's ya rules!

Lies, lies, lies, lies, oh my lies, ...

Nonny---

I have one of those super blast sprayer nozzles on my hose. I'm happy to call out those sand box bullies.

And, as for talking neocon lite, back to the neocons, well, I'm sure we can all agree it's getting us no where. If someone throws poop on you verbally, rinsing the poop off and trying to reform the poop to throw back is useless. Go get you own poop to throw is my motto!!!!

When the neocons speak neonese, people hear what they expect to hear. Its crap, but they understand it. When the dems try to speak it, it's like listening to someone with a phrase book on a foreign bus tour. Garbled and goofy. And ,you know what, people expect that these days too, the no message message, mirror reflection. Good-o, makes one think that voting for the 'clearer message' is the smart thing. Even if it sucks, you understood it.

So, when some smart dem says they are all done with neoconese, and speaks plain English, I'd think they might do okay. I can't figure out why they think people only speak neocon. I barely understand it myself, except to know its bulls**t.

Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages and repeal domestic partnerships now starts to circulate in California.

http://www.lesbianation.com/article.cfm?section=1&id=6725

This will be my biggest fight for the next year. If this thing passes, it's WAR on conservative immigrants.

I read somewhere the other day that it's time to call bulls**t on the Bushies. I wish. Suppose a statement came out from a whole bunch of dems saying,

Dear Mr. Preznitwit,

We call Bulls**t.

Thank-you,

Now that would be news, and the bulls**t callers would get a ton of face time to expound on the lies and the crapola. They might get beat up, but, if they just say 'so what I called bulls**t, what are you gonnna do about it?' I imagine a whole lot of people would find out that they can call bulls**t too.

Imagine Democrats holding front porch talks with people all over the country. Town halls of truth. They could plainly and simply state that they want the truth out, and the American people to judge, but that being a minority in Washington means that without help from the people, our voices are being stifled.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 03:01 PM

amen.

let's do that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thats' my candidate, anyone have him/her handy???

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 04:28 PM

let's be that "candidate"-- all of us.

I'm not condoning ruthless shady tactics - but telling it like it is is the only way to get it done.
Posted by: Carol at July 26, 2005 04:30 PM

I agree with you, which is why I've always liked Howard Dean. He gets slammed every time he says anything truthful, and I find that deplorable... but at least the media sometimes shows sound bytes of what he says before the neoCon talking heads start dissing him.....

Simply telling the simple truth nowadays (sans neoCon-code-speak) invites criticism, even when people speak in smooth modulated tones of voice....

Carol---

Should I ever make the mistake of running for anything, I'll be happy to have your vote!!!

My husband says that he would leave me in a hot minute if I got into running for anything, and i can understand his reasoning. We like our lives the way they are, without a microscope on our every move. I have to respect anyone who wants to run for anything these days, because your life is never your own again. It's a scary place I'm not prepared to go to, you know?

That being said, I have no problem being a real dog behind the scenes. And, I have no problem with the truth, since I'm from the truth will set you free, even if it hurts school. I happen to like honesty, go figure, and I happen to be the honest type. Can you tell?

Sheesh, my life in politics wrapped up in less than four paragraphs!!!

Ally---

You know we are with you. I've never forgotten how much you care, and how much you put yourself out there. This is one more battle that in the past, maybe you felt you fought alone, but not now, not ever again. We are a family you know!!

I have one of those super blast sprayer nozzles on my hose. I'm happy to call out those sand box bullies.

And, as for talking neocon lite, back to the neocons, well, I'm sure we can all agree it's getting us no where. If someone throws poop on you verbally, rinsing the poop off and trying to reform the poop to throw back is useless. Go get you own poop to throw is my motto!!!!

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 04:41 PM
~~~~~~~~

:-) I've got access to a garden hose..., willing to start spraying, starting with the dictionary definitions of LIE, LIES, LIED, LYING, DID LIE, IS LYING, WILL LIE, and any variations of the word LIE (telling untruths) found in any dictionary, thesaurus, or rules of grammar books. My keyboard is set to write things that expose LIES, and my mental poop meter can spot those LIES at a hundred paces blindfolded, and I can hear LIES even when my ears are stuffed with cotton and covered with earphones....

Hey, LIE is only one syllable. What's not to understand when someone says "That's a LIE!" ?!?!? WHY can't our Dem senators and representatives not say "That's a LIE!" every time the neoCons tell a LIE?!?!?

Saying "There is kine dung in the barnyard" doesn't make Bull$h*t smell less....

Native--

The only way for all of us to be that candidate is to insist that our reps come to us.

Dear Congressman/woman___________,
Dear Senator__________,

Greetings,

Your constituents in the great town of _______ have decided to hold a Town Hall of Truth meeting on ______________. We invite you to attend and speak to us about the lies told by the Bush mis-Administration. Yes, we've decided to call a lie and lie, and we want you to come and address us about it. The future of this country is at stake and we are tired of feel good, fund raiser type get togethers. We don't care about your re-election right now, we want some honesty. Please say you will join us for some plain spoken truth.

Regards,
our-town, USA

I'd donate to anyone doing a commercial spot. One that shows piles of doo doo, dung, manure, and people trying to step over it around it, until the piles get too close together, and have a final caption that says "You can't keep stepping around it. Make the president stop flinging poop, and tell him to tell the truth."

I suppose that along with my politcal career, my career in commercials is over too!!!

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 05:18 PM

tutter,

I love it!

I just did a quick tour of the blogoshpere, and it's amazing the things that are RIGHT THERE for anyone to see and understand.

Roberts and his forgotten Federalist membership (right, oopsie, silly me, i forgot)

Santorum got grilled by Aaron Brown last nite, TDS not so much. He's not running in 08, by the way.

Hillary is campaigning for president again.

Paul Hackett is getting swiftboated in Ohio special election. He's fighting back, too.

The Senate put the NRA before our troops. THANKS, Frist!!! We know where your loyalties are. Gotta keep torture protected.

John Conyers is after the DOJ for an investigation.

Nobody ask Roberts any questions. Just vote him in and smile. Besides, he won't remember anything anyway.

Iraqi's have worms in their drinking water.

There are still no WMD and a majority of Americans think we were misled into war.
(disemble disassemble, hmmmm)

OBL is still free, and the poppy crop is doing well in Afganistan.

____________________________________________

Wouldn't you just love to see a HUGE expose starting with the 8-6-2001 PDB to today????

We can handle the truth.
We can handle the truth.
We can handle the truth.

I suggest that we make a whole list of questions, regarding the lies, the half truths, the shifting truths, and then we set about answering them. We compose an entie catalogue of items that we all contribute to, and when we have finished we send our message to congress, the blogosphere and every news outlet out there.

We make it a 'sign on to this document if you want the truth' catalogue. Remind people, that it is NOT the elected officials or the news media anymore where we will communicate and congregate, but with our friends and neighbors and our on line networking.

WE WANT SOME ANSWERS AND WE WANT THEM NOW!!!!!

I worked with a few friends to come up with a short and sweet version of what we want to hear repeated until it comes back to me three times a day. It's a harder task than we had imagined, but here's what it came down to:

"We're sick of the lying and sick of the dying."

Anyone else want to try. It's hard to encompass so many crimes into one short blurb--friggin' give someone Irish like me a stroke trying to say ANYTHING in LESS words! But I tried.

There are lots of one issue slogans out there, but how do you put the whole thing in one basket for people.

Oh wait, I heard an EXCELLENT ONE that I have been repeating- "Culture of Corruption" and someone else, maybe Frank Rich, came up with "Culture of Revenge", which I don't think works, because there are one hell of alot of people who thinks that okey dokey with them., but I did like Culture of Corruption alot.

One word: Treason.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Paul Hackett is getting swiftboated in Ohio special election.
Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 05:50 PM

Great framing, Tutt.
Let's repeat it, and donate to his campaign while we're at it.

Several days in a row, late last week, I asked if anybody knew of a bumper sticker with Bush's logo and the word LIAR typed over Bush's name? Madame sent me a prototype and I looked at cafepress.com.

This has to be our message, it will resonate. Who doesn't understand what a liar is? We can expect that the liars will do what they always do; distract, obfuscate, and continue to lie. Who can forget Lawrence O'Donnell on Scarborough Country calling John O'Neill a liar repeatedly. Isn't it about time we did what has to be done? We have to call liars what they really are L-I-A-R-S

Queen Tut, stopped for a quick read-by, and had to say your manure missive right on. Especially liked your invite, just perfect for Congress' summer recess. Your news items told me all I needed to know.

Does anybody have a link about what is happening to Paul Hackett?

Randi Rhodes is pushing Traitorgate.

I still like mine - LOL - The Niger Con, because it points directly to what the Plame outing and all the cover-up is really about. It's about how our congress and the American people were conned by a group of neo-cons, some American, some Italian, through a convoluted web of intrigue that resulted in the Niger forgeries.

If we try to generalize and talk about all the transgressions of this administration at once, people will turn off. No one will believe that every word bushco has uttered is a lie - heck, most Republicans I know won't even entertain the notion that Bush might have lied or even tried to mislead, even once. We'll get them into defensive mode.

Right now, this story is about WH staff, not Bush.

Butthe name "The Niger Con" allows people to believe that perhaps Bush wasn't the architect, maybe wasn't even involved.... but none-the-less, America was conned. This allows Republicans to not turn off, to listen to the story a bit....

I don't know....
Specific works best, in my opinion.

I'd bet my retirement savings that the Italian warrants for the American CIA officers is directly linked to this whole story. Funny how they ALL disappeared....

I wonder how many CIA agents and CIA cover ops (fake businesses, etc) will be unraveled by pulling ever harder on the Plame thread. Italy, Britain, hmm...

Criminals, Fools, and Traitors
Are Stupid White Men Really Stupid?
By Dom Stasi
The vast majority of Americans are honorable people. But Americans are people who’ve been lied to by those in positions of trust for so long and so often that they’ve lost their ability or their desire to recognize the truth.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9573.htm

{{{ This is quite a long op-ed piece, but well worth the read, IMHO. Grab a cuppa....}}}

oncall, I agree with you. Honesty is a strong value that resonates throughout middle America or the so called "red" states as well as blue states. Honesty is a value nobody argues with and everybody loves--like when a little kid returns a wallet. During the campaign, I so wanted this theme pounded--that Bush is plain and simply not honest and he values someone like Rove who lies for him for a living. It's disgusting. So let's keep saying it loud and clear--Bush and his buddies purposely lied to all of us about the most horrible thing one can lie about--WAR.

....heck, most Republicans I know won't even entertain the notion that Bush might have lied or even tried to mislead, even once. We'll get them into defensive mode.
Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 07:46 PM

Amy,

I am sorry if we don't agree about this, but I could care less if some Republicans get defensive. I don't expect any Republican that can't conceive of Bush lying about what has happened even considering not voting for the Bushco agenda. We have to help others to understand that we are living in an Orwellian world where white is black and up is down.

As I have said before, only 50% of Americans can be expected to vote in National elections. If we hammer home the point that America is being held hostage by a group of liars led by George Bush we may be able to get more people to vote for a more Progressive agenda and along the way, we may pick up some Republicans who can't stomach what has happened to their country.

When we talk about lies, the specifics are easy. We all know what they are, and so do most Americans. As soon as they see others not afraid to talk about the lies, they are generally relieved to know that there are others out here who feel the same way they do.

Lies, and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them.... Isn't that the title of an Al Franken book?

I'll take any short slogan that gets the point across, as long as the direct or indirect message involves getting people to think about finally analyzing the LIES we've been told and the LIARS who have hornswoggled and bamboozled some 50.5% of the people in this country, since he's still in office (altho I still privately hold the opinion that the election was stolen and it was not quite 50% of the people who voted for the cretin and his administration).

Oncall, they're doing the "trial lawyer" thing to Hackett.... can't find a link, still looking. They're attacking his work record, labeling him a trial lawyer. I guess they feel that lawyers, like Massachusetts liberals, are expendable.

Oncall, my concern about turning people off has to do with the media... as much as we want our Dems to "talk plainly" they need to get MSM TV coverage in order to get their message out.

And frankly I don't see how you expect to take back the senate or the congress without winning any votes from Republicans. Will the votes come down from out of the sky? Will a large portion of Repubblican voters drop dead before the elections in 06? What strategy do you propose if not winning votes from Republicans?

Amy,

I figured that was what they were doing. I heard a caller call Ed Schultz yesterday about the trial lawyer issue, and Ed Schultz totally creamed the guy. Schultz stayed away from the lawyer issue and asked the caller about how he thought Hackett's being a Marine prohibited Hackett from serving in the Congress. I suspect that Hackett is smart enough how to handle this.

Former Bush aide turns critic as Iraq inspector:
The office had paid a contractor twice for the same work. A U.S. official was allowed to handle millions of dollars in cash weeks after he was fired for incompetence. Of the $119.9 million allocated for regional projects, $89.4 million was disbursed without contracts or other documentation. An additional $7.2 million couldn't be found at all.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05207/543937.stm

The other problem Oncall is this: What proof do we have that "Bush lied" exactly? I'm talking proof, not conjecture. Exactly, specifically, which lie are we refering to, and when did he say it, and what proof do we have that it was HIS lie and not just faulty intelligence?

"If we hammer home the point that America is being held hostage by a group of liars led by George Bush"

You and I may suspect that this is true, but we're not going to get any MSM coverage with it and we're not going to be able to prove that Bush is the leader, or even involved. We'll just get more "defensive voting" for Republicans.... we'll be seen as name callers, etc. People who make wild accusations just because we didn't win.

My neighbors who are Independents voted for Bush in 04 (Gore in 2000) solely because they thought the attacks from the left - ie, Michael Moore - were over the top. They think the left is responsible for the attack ad phenomenon, and that leftists call everyone who doesn't agree with them a liar. Of course that's not true, but the perception is out there largely because of Michael Moore.

I feel as outraged as anyone else, and I certainly call the neocons liars on this blog every day, but as Dick pointed out, we need proof to take it to the masses.

Amy,

Honesty is basic, and we know that speaking to truth can make a difference. The MSM will cover the story when a candiate who supports Bushco is portrayed as naive and gullible. I believe that Republicans who listen to a message that stresses honesty and will cross party lines. There will be those who refuse to accept the reality we live in, and they are beyond hope. Just look what has happened now that the media has felt the sting of Rove's lies. They have been aggressive and haven't been distracted by SCOTUS as Bushco hoped they would. I firmly believe that more people (i.e greater than 50% of eligible voters voting) will vote for change when we make an issue of the culture of lies, deceptions and limited information that our current government has imposed upon us.

As far as MSM goes, we have to be the media. If it hadn't been for the Viet Nam war protests who knows what would have happened?

Oncall, it seems clear that the Republicans are worried about Hackett. They've got callers dissing him on all the radio shows, and the local TV stations as well.

It's fun to listen to rightie callers trying to take on Big Eddie. He's got a cracker-jack research team on board now, you can tell. He's got the facts all lined up.

Rumsfeld in talks on US air bases :
Four Central Asian states, Russia and China have urged the US to give a timeframe for withdrawal of forces used to support operations in Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4716563.stm
{{{ Don't know about anyone else, but I privately hope they close foreign bases to the US military.... in theory, it could, coupled with some of the other stories about pulling troops out, potentially hasten the end of Bu$hCo's War. Clearly, no American opinions about the insanity of his war will pressure Bu$hCo to name a deadline to pull out of Iraq, so people in other countries will have to exert the pressure....}}}

As far as MSM goes, we have to be the media. If it hadn't been for the Viet Nam war protests who knows what would have happened?

Posted by: oncall at July 26, 2005 08:24 PM

Well if I remember correctly, the Vietnam War protests were covered on TV. The multi-million strong protest of the Bush Invasion of Iraq barely got a mention on most stations.

"I firmly believe that more people (i.e greater than 50% of eligible voters voting) will vote for change when we make an issue of the culture of lies, deceptions and limited information that our current government has imposed upon us."

I would say that the culture of secrecy is provable, the concentration of power in the executive, the taking away of power from congress, and eventually maybe the deliberate deception.... not sure.

One thing I do know is that a lot of people think that all politicians are liars. So they worry most about security and the economy and don't pay attention to all the finger-pointing.

I think perhaps part of the reason for our different perspectives is that I live in a strong Republican area and my family are all Republicans. I am always looking for ways to get them to pay attention, to wake up, to at least listen to one or two facts. So far I seem to have discovered most of what doesn't work...lol

Posted by: oncall at July 26, 2005 08:24 PM

oncall, I just saw something today that said that the Cincinnati Enquirer, which is generally a right-leaning newspaper, has endorsed Paul Hackett. I haven't found the direct link to the Enquirer, but here's a link that mentions it...
http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/07/ohios_next_elec.php

Oncall and Amy,

Your discussion reminds me of last summer's election when the DNC was all sugar and spice and everything nice.

Then this morning somebody posted a link to a different article/blog and it had a troll "Mike" who was saying, "You lefties have nothing but HATE and no real message and therefore you'll never win."

Then I heard Rush L., and of course there's the Fox lineup of neoCONS, and all they spew is HATE HATE HATE.

So my point in this comment is to say that I don't believe there is only one way to win the masses. The "nice" card fell last summer and Kerry never called Bush a liar even though we did. And the hate card is a turnoff for some.

But frankly, I can't help wondering if we'd catch more people if we tried it Tut's way. What if they did what Tutter suggested earlier, and they said, "I WANT THE TRUTH. I want an honest government. And even if my own party has broken the rules, I will STAND for TRUTH!"

Would that make a difference?

I am sorry Amy but I expect (as I am sure you do too) our President to be able to tell us the COMPLETE truth. Especially about WMD, and the connection between Iraq and 9/11. He fosters an administration operating under a guise of leadership that employs deceptions and misinformation.

BTW, did you inform your neighbors that Michael Moore was correct and honest? I am also curious as to how many your neighbors who complained about Moore saw his movie?

I think perhaps part of the reason for our different perspectives is that I live in a strong Republican area and my family are all Republicans. I am always looking for ways to get them to pay attention, to wake up, to at least listen to one or two facts. So far I seem to have discovered most of what doesn't work...lol

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 08:31 PM

Amy,

Maybe our politics is genetically wired! I truthfully feel that those who have strong beliefs will never change their mind. And those who say they're independant really lean towards one side or the other.

I really think it boils down to the people out here who are just too busy stringing a living together and struggling to make ends meet. They see nobody helping them-- no matter who is in charge.

Posted by: madame defarge at July 26, 2005 08:33 PM

Madame, here is the endorsement, I read it earlier today.

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050726/EDIT/507260326/1003

I think perhaps part of the reason for our different perspectives is that I live in a strong Republican area and my family are all Republicans.

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 08:31 PM

I live in a very strong Republican area as well. My family, well, what can I say? One (other than me) is democrat, two are Republicans and one is Libertarian.

Sparrow, I love your phrasing - ""I WANT THE TRUTH. I want an honest government. And even if my own party has broken the rules, I will STAND for TRUTH!""

Oncall, exactly when did Bush lie? What were his specific words that were a lie? That's the question I get when I try to say he's lied to us.

Regarding the neighbors...they saw his movie (I'm talking about one couple here) with open minds and thought it was full of inuendo, which it was. If you disect it from a media deconstruction point of view, it was definitely propaganda. True, there were facts that were true in it. But his use of questions to lead the viewer to conclusions that were completely conjecture was most generous.

However, I still think he did the country an important service by making it.

Oncall...

You feel like canvassing in Ohio this weekend? Bring your family! Bring the pets. Bring beer and pizza!

But frankly, I can't help wondering if we'd catch more people if we tried it Tut's way. What if they did what Tutter suggested earlier, and they said, "I WANT THE TRUTH. I want an honest government. And even if my own party has broken the rules, I will STAND for TRUTH!"

Would that make a difference?

Posted by: sparrow at July 26, 2005 08:34 PM

Yes, it would make a difference. The Democrats stood against Johnson during Viet Nam. So the question becomes "Party or Country?"

Amy,

It's the naive part of me that says that. It's also the naive part of me that wonders if a candidate who was a relative newbie could say that and win or if people would then say, "But he/she has no experience..."

Would you vote for someone who just had strong naive beliefs--sort of like Mr. Smith (who went to Washington)?

Amy

Two words: "Mushroom Cloud"

kos and atrios have up a some hackett threads. you don't necessarily have to read the posts, the headers are pretty clear.

It seems Jean Schmidt has a guy named Minemeyer doing the dirty work. He claims that Hackestt's duty in Fallajuh probably didn't amount to much, blah blah blah. Markos or maybe Armando were dead clear that ANYONE going into Fallujah was a soldier worthy of respect.

And, people are donating. I don't know if the swiftboating method is going to work real well ever again, or if it's just not going to work on Iraq vets.

Needless to say, I wish Mr. Hackett well, not becuase he is a Democrat, but because he says what he thinks and I think he plans to keep right on saying it in congress. Schmidt is wallowing in 'back the president in a time of war' speeches, which means that she is a tool, nothing more.

Ohio needs to get out of it's red doldrums. The coin theft king, Tom Noe and everyone attached to him are nothing but theives and liars. If the voters there are going to be lap dogs for red moral values (sic) they will get the government they deserve. I have gone way past the time and place where I will feel pity for anyone who refuses to leave their party when their party has become morally bankrupt.

Sparrow,
If people are partisan without room to change minds, how did Clinton win with so many votes? Twice?

I suspect it was because he was moderate. I suspect it was because he had some appeal to Republican voters, mainly the money types I would guess. (The values types were probably a lost cause from the start.) I suspect it was because he appealed to what was virtuous about Americans in general, ie, generosity of spirit, he compromised with corporations, and he hit hard with economic facts, without attacking personally the heroes of the right.

Sparrow,

IRC.

Amy,

Or do we just "say" we want a Washington outsider; just like we just "say" we don't like the negative ads but we still listen to them?

Oncall, exactly how was "mushroom cloud" a lie? Did he specifically say that there was one? Or did he suggest that it was a possibility? Agreed, it was a scare tactic, agreed, there was, as it turns out, no grounds for that fear... but, exactly how is that a lie?

It was suggested as a possibility. That's not a lie. Sorry, although I agree with you in spirit here, it's technically not YET a lie. Let's hope it becomes a provable one.

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 08:51 PM

Amy,

If that was the case with Clinton, then how was it that he inspires as much antipathy as Bush who is an extremist?

Rep. Ron Paul: The Patriot Act Four Years Later :
Some of my congressional colleagues referenced the recent London bombings during the debate, insinuating that opponents of the Patriot Act somehow would be responsible for a similar act here at home. I won’t even dignify that slur with the response it deserves.
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2005/tst072505.htm

Patriot Games :
If House Democrats had stuck together in opposition to moves by the Bush administration to reauthorize the worst elements of the Patriot Act, the legislation would have been defeated and a major victory would have been won for civil liberties.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=7923

{{{Why is it the Dems can't stick together against the Bu$hCo administration?!?
From what I understand, not one single senator or representative even read the original Patriot Act before it was passed. Shame on them!!! They allowed fear to get the better of their ability to think rationally, and every one of them owes us an apology for infringing on our rights. Now this last House version was passed immediately after the London bombings. What's wrong with that picture? To me, it means we have irrational people in the House who can't keep their heads at the first sign of 'terraist' activity anywhere in the world, and maybe they should go find a different occupation and stop being politicians who are supposed to have the best interests of the American people in mind while they are in our employ in WA, DC.}}}

Amy- you couldn't live in a more Republican area than I do, and I don't think we're going to win over Republicans by calling Bush a liar either. That's because we CANNOT win over most Republicans at all. It's brainwashing and the bliss of ignorance that they've enjoyed the last four years- Daddy Bush in the White House is going to protect them and he can do no wrong. The only sacrifice they have to make for his protection is to fly their flags and believe every single word that comes out of his mouth. I don't think Michael Moore turned anyone off who had planned to vote for John Kerry originally- John Kerry did enough of that himself. Watching a clip of his statement on Lance Armstrong's win last night on The Daily Show should have been enough to explain why we didn't win the last election- Kerry just cannot relate to the Average American and doesn't know when to stop talking. I'm sorry, I know that makes lots of people on here mad. But what we need to do is to call Bush what he is, a liar, to spur on the voters who did not come out and vote the last election. If we can quit being such wussie door-mats (sitting here discussing whether we should actually call a liar a liar is part of that), we might just inspire a lot of those non-voters to trust us enough to come out and vote next year. All they want is a party that understands them and shows some backbone. The Republicans haven't worried about being bullies for years now, and they're winning because of it. We have to stop with our political correctness and call them what they are, liars and thieves.Straight talk is what Americans respect- we need to do more of it.

Posted by: sparrow at July 26, 2005 08:49 PM

I wonder if money would dry up quickly for a candidate who spoke out...

I remember Lou Dobbs saying that the corruption was equally rampant on both sides of the aisle.

Today some callers to Ed Schultz were talking about splitting from the Dem party - I think one was from the Backbone Campaign. Now THAT would be interesting....

Amy,

Any splitting would cause even more losses. I think the opposite is true. We must embrace moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats, Independants, and Left Liberal Democrats.

Can we put Diogenes up as a candidate?

oncall- he'd lose.

Amy,

With Debbie Stabenaws vote against the American people and for the Big Business Credit Industry, I fully believe if there is not corruption there is just way too much "lobby-power" in both parties.

A lot has been said about the Niger claim in the State of the Union speech. Here's another zinger.

From intelligence sources, we know, for instance, that thousands of Iraqi security personnel are at work hiding documents and materials from the U.N. inspectors, sanitizing inspection sites and monitoring the inspectors themselves.

This is complete crap. So is Blair's "Dodgy Dossier" (plagiarized from a student thesis that was 12 years old), remember that? So were all those satellite photos and pictures of supposed mobile WMD labs that were labeled as weapons factories and they turned out to be...nothing. Remember in the days after the invasion how people got caught trying to plant WMD documents in Iraq? Remember how every day the MSM trumpeted how they had found evidence of WMD's in Iraq...but then there wasn't anything? One "mobile laboratory" ended up being for weather balloons and any intelligence analyst should have recognized that. Remember they were getting really desperate and at one point said that the WMD's were floating around on ships somewhere in the ocean? (Never mind that they would have been really easy to spot! boats don't just disappear out there) Then remember how it shifted from WMD's to "evidence of WMD activities" to "WMD program-related-activities" to "gee, he must have really wanted to make WMD's right?"
The complete lack of any WMD's ever EVER found in Iraq (with the exception of some leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war, in which, you might remember, Rumsfeld supplied US munitions to Iraq) means that somebody was stretching REALLY hard to make a case for invading Iraq based on WMD's. This fits perfectly with the evidence in the DSM saying that the Bush admin was trying desperately to "fit facts around policy" in an attempt to justify this personal use of the US military. Maybe Bush didn't lie. Maybe it all depends on what "is" is. But like Watergate, it is the coverup that will bring the admin down, if we and the media have the tenacity to keep tugging at the loose threads that connect the whole cabal.

We need to have the tenacity and the stridency of FNC in evicting these squatters from our White House.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at July 26, 2005 08:58 PM

Linda,

I'm one of those nut-cases who doesn't believe he lost.

I believe what I heard Randy Rhodes so perfectly describe about the neoCONS and the Bush administration. She said, "They give us some of the facts...but not all. They count some of the votes...but not all. They give us some of the documents but not all. They have a PATTERN. A pattern of only COUNTING SOME but leaving out the majority of the stuff that goes against them."

How true...as far as I'm concerned!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/10/20011009-13.html

Q Mr. President, can you tell us what prompted you to write the memo to Congress about briefing on intelligence matters, why you think such restrictions are appropriate? And could you also address what threat you think these limited anthrax exposures pose more generally? Is it linked to terrorism at all?

THE PRESIDENT: Well first, Mr. Chancellor, we had a -- we had some security briefings take place up on Capitol Hill that were a discussion about classified information and some of that information was shared with the press.

CHANCELLOR SCHROEDER: Oh, we know that trouble. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you know that trouble, too. (Laughter.) These are extraordinary times. Our nation has put our troops at risk. And therefore, I felt it was important to send a clear signal to Congress that classified information must be held dear, that there's a responsibility that if you receive a briefing of classified information, you have a responsibility. And some members did not accept that responsibility, somebody didn't. So I took it upon myself to notify the leadership of the Congress that I intend to protect our troops.

And that's why I sent the letter I sent. It's a serious matter, Dave, it's very serious that people in positions of responsibility understand, that they have a responsibility to people who are being put in harm's way. I'm having breakfast tomorrow with members of Congress. I will be glad to bring up this subject.

I understand there may be some heartburn on Capitol Hill. But I suggest if they want to relieve that heartburn, that they take their positions very seriously, and that they take any information they've been given by our government very seriously. Because this is serious business we're talking about.

From D.U.

Thought a 12 hour gap was bad? What about a 4 day gap? What about a 10 week stonewalling by the DOJ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4196003&mesg_id=4196169

Senator Schumer asks for an FBI investigation. (old news but helps show the timeline.)
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2003/07/cs072403.html

Think about this, bird. We can't seem to find a way to appeal to anyone who considers themself a moderate becuase we haven't clearly defined what that moderation looks like. Hillary talks, Biden talks, Dean talks, and they don't say the same thing. They don't run to each other's defense. Everyone does their own thing, and when one of their collegues is getting beat up, they are off thanking their lucky stars it isn't them. Where is the cohesive message that really does talk about including everyone?

Where is the cohesive message that really does talk about including everyone?

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 09:18 PM

"Honesty in Government" who is saying that?

Tutter, what I think has been missing from political campaigns for a while has been some kind of national goal for people of all parties and stripes to rally around.

For example, "We will put a man on the moon." "We will end communism." These are the sorts of endeavors that prod people to forget labels and mudslinging and personal attacks. Forget the 50/50 ideological split and abortions and gays and Bible-thumping and evolution and whatnot.

We need someone with a vision. Not something vague (no matter how comforting) like "One America". Bush, for all his evilness, has a vision or a mission or a Crusade. We need someone who has a Goal with that kind of fervency...but of course a good Goal. Why aren't politicians goal-oriented these days?

We were taught to make SMART goals (specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time-oriented). What kind of SMART goal can we rally around these days? Yes, getting our troops back home ASAP is nice but it is part of a larger quagmire. We need something else, something positive, that involves technology, that will push the US to the forefront of industry again, that will be beneficial for humanity...ideas???

sparrow- I don't know if he lost or not, but the truth is that Bush has been such a dismal failure as a president, the election should not have been close enough for manipulation. I know it gets people angry when anyone tries to point out that we just had the wrong candidate last year, but I honestly think that was the case. And I'm not trying to put down Kerry at all- he's an intelligent man, he's a man of honor, he's everything we could ask for in a president. He won all 3 of the debates, and still lost the election. There has to be some reason for that, and it's just that the American people felt more comfortable with Bush, even knowing everything he's done wrong, than they did with Kerry. Kerry just cannot get down to the level of the "average Joe." He doesn't have it in him- he's too cerebral. There's a line from a movie- I think it's from "A Bridge too Far" where an officer is trying to explain to one of his men why he doesn't have many friends. He tells him that it's not that people don't like him, it's just that they can readily see that he's smarter than they are. And it makes them uncomfortable. I don't think people ever got comfortable with the idea of Kerry being in the White House for 4 years. And I think that's what cost him the election. Bill Clinton is extremely bright too, but the facts of his childhood help him relate to average Americans. Kerry didn't have the priviledge of being born poor. That was his Achilles heel. That's just my opinion anyway.

Linda, Bush didn't have the privilege of being born poor either. And he still won.

Kerry didn't have the privilege of rigged voting. He also had the decency to run a clean campaign. I agree he is not a folksy guy. But guys with dignity and intelligency and gravity have won the White House before.

We were taught to make SMART goals (specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, time-oriented). What kind of SMART goal can we rally around these days? Yes, getting our troops back home ASAP is nice but it is part of a larger quagmire. We need something else, something positive, that involves technology, that will push the US to the forefront of industry again, that will be beneficial for humanity...ideas???

Posted by: Veritas at July 26, 2005 09:26 PM

Excellent post Veritas. I think a reasonable and popular goal would be one of energy independence based on renewable, enviromentally friendly resources. Americans want to move away from depending on Middle East oil while doing as much as we can to preserve the environment. I think this is a singular issue which can appeal to all Americans. This message can be broadened to include the economic benefits which would emerge from the success of such a program: broader health care, education, infrastructure, etc. etc.

Veritas- I'm sorry, but I can't remember a "dignified" president during my lifetime. FDR probably was- Truman was definitely not dignified, Ike was poor and only suceeded because he was a military hero- Kennedy was young, handsome, and had a huge sense of humor, but until later in his presidency could not have been seen as having a lot of gravity or dignity. Nixon, don't even go there. Ford wasn't elected- Carter was a peanut farmer. Not a lot of dignity there- definitely an average guy. Reagan- unbearably average, and not too smart. Bush the first was running against someone with dignity and intelligence and gravity, and Bush won. Sorry, but dignity doesn't go rate highy with Americans, and I don't think gravity does either. Oh, I forgot Lyndon. He showed his gall bladder scar on TV and pulled his dog's ears. I wish Americans valued dignity and gravity, but I'm afraid they just don't.

Linda,

But you start with a different premise than I do.

You start with the premise that it was close and that he "lost" because...

Whereas, I start with the premise of this: we KNOW with statistical and oral stories that the machines in at least 4 states were messed with.

Bev Harris has the evidence of fraud in Florida. The Ohio was so disgustingly corrupt that to list it all would take more space than we have. We know machines messed up in North Carolina and Indiana. We know in Nevada Republican thugs were hired to rip up Democrat voter registrations. We know in New Mexico there was allegations of fraud with incredible statistical anomolies showing probable fraud. We know in Texas, there were over votes for GWB.

We know every single "computer error" was given to GWB while not one error was given to Kerry.

So I will never say, "Wrong candidate or he did or did not do this... and it cost him the election."

I will however say that the campaign did have flaws that hurt him. I will also say I don't believe he's an automatic shoe-in next time or an automatic loss.

My biggest concern is working on 06 and the media because without those two things swinging back to legitimate, then the American people have no chance except if corporate, corrupt neoCONS chose to let a "dem" win in their strategically chosen area.

Otherwise, we may as well just call ourselves Russia and welcome the Pravda to our country.

Americans are about at the point that they want to vote 'American Idol' style for their president, don't you think? Or put everone on the island and let them be elected 'Survivor' style.

Forget smarts, dignity, foreign skills, whatever, get me somebody I can hot tub with, you know!!!!

Tutt,

I have a hot tub! Let's party baby.

Some Papers Pull, Edit 'Doonesbury' Strip
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/072605R.shtml
About a dozen newspapers have objected to use of toilet humor in Tuesday's and Wednesday's "Doonesbury" comic strip, and some either pulled or edited the strip.

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sFile=db050725
Doonesbury (Mon.)
http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sfile=db050726&vts=72620051740
Doonesbury (Tue.)

Wed. Doonesbury is not on the web site yet. My reaction to the story is "Huh?!?" What, pray tell, is so offensive about using preznitwit's nickname for Rove in a comic strip?!????? "Turd" is not exactly "toilet humor" - other words and other innuendo, yes, but not the way Trudeau used it..... Context is everything....

Hi Linda,
I have no problem with Dems being more "bullyish" at all. None. I agree with you about the 04 election - much as I like Kerry, there were mistakes made.

I think Rep. Conyers is doing an excellent job of being aggressive, pro-active, even bullying, without straying from facts. I wish all our Dems would start acting with the kind of leadership he's shown.

My only concern is that Dems should stick to FACTS. That's all I'm saying. FACTS. Provable facts. (I'm talking about elected and campaigning Dems, here, not those of us posting online, or even Dean. I'm talking Dem candidates.) It's not a proven fact that Bush lied, it's an opinion. It's the right one, but it's still at this point an opinion. Until it's a proven fact, I don't think Dem candidates should accuse him of it. Misleading, secretive, etc -yes. But saying he outright lied when it's not proven would be a mistake in my opinion.

That's not to say we're not on the verge of proving it. I think we might be. And that would be "oh happy day." Then I think they should shout it to the rafters.

I just don't agree that we could get enough non-voters to come out and vote to win elections, without getting some Republican votes. Certainly that strategy would go nowhere in my area. There are very few non-voting Dems to get. My dem rep, Brian Baird, walks a fine line as it is, and most of his district is SW WA urban/suburban. If he started calling Bush and Republicans liars, he's be out on his ass in the blink of an eye. I'd guess the same for Cantwell and Murray. My opinion, admittedly armchair, is that getting more Republicans elected won't solve the problem.

I think Dems should be bullying on the things that are fact - the war mess, the economy, the concentration of power in the executive.... I think they need to speak about this stuff more clearly and more forcefully.

And I think those of us talking about all this stuff online should feel free to call the liars anything we darn well please.

---------------

Oncall, you've hit on the perfect slogan. Honesty in Government. It's perfect for the Dems going into 06. It speaks to the "aura of dishonesty" around this administration without saying specifically that any Republican lied.

We should all start making lawn signs....

Oncall:

There ya' go! You found our bumper sticker! "I have a hot tub! Let's party baby." Then below it put "Sponsored by the porn industry sponsoring your favorite Republican!"

oncall--lol

Good news everybody there is no longer a war on terror.

Don't mention war on terror, say Bush aides
By Alec Russell in Washington

Officials are instead starting to favour the rather less snappy phrase "struggle against violent extremism" as the administration puts increased stress on longer term initiatives - diplomatic, economic and educational - to defeat terrorism.

SNIP

Officials are instead starting to favour the rather less snappy phrase "struggle against violent extremism" as the administration puts increased stress on longer term initiatives - diplomatic, economic and educational - to defeat terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/27/wterr27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/27/ixnewstop.html

Oncall, you've hit on the perfect slogan. Honesty in Government. It's perfect for the Dems going into 06. It speaks to the "aura of dishonesty" around this administration without saying specifically that any Republican lied.

We should all start making lawn signs....

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 09:49 PM

HEY Amy!!!

It was MINE...sort of...well...sort of...ok, well, maybe I stole from TUT!

Amy,

I think Ira had suggested for 06, "Clean up Washington!" That might work too.

Amy,

Can we go after Cheney for lying? We all know, and have proven, that he has lied (i.e. "I've never met John Edwards until we walked into this hall tonight") If we get Rove now, and then Cheney....Shrub might just run off with his tail between his legs - he won't know what to do without his puppet masters.

I wish Americans valued dignity and gravity, but I'm afraid they just don't.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at July 26, 2005 09:40 PM

Ain't that the truth, alas....
Kerry would have won in a landslide in Canada, Great Britain, France.... but not here.

Of course, the dirty tactics of the rove machine and the questionable voting machines surely didn't help.

The last analysis I read, Kerry lost ground with middle America because of the tax thing. People earning 100-200K didn't want to have their taxes go up. Nevermind that the info they had wasn't accurate. That's our fault, perhaps.

I still think that in America, it's all about money.

The first best most important thing we have to do is send God back to the houses of worship, and refuse to be baited with Him/Her/It as a talking point. We need to start saying that religion is private, thank you, and I'm not going to mix my political life with that part of my private life. If you can't deal with it, I'm sorry, but what the divine means to me, belongs to me.

Oops! Sorry Sparrow!

You all have been great to converse with tonight - you, Oncall, Linda, Veritas, Carol - thanks for the great conversation. I don't get much of that around here!

sparrow- I understand we're starting with a different premise. I do believe the election was closer than we know, but if we continue to believe we won, how can we learn anything from the election at all? What we know is that we have all the issues on our side- education, the environment, social security- nearly everything that Americans say matters to them. Yet we couldn't pull this thing off. There had to be a fatal flaw somewhere- for the thing to even have been as close as it was. And it wasn't Michael Moore's fault. He inspired a lot of young people to come out to the voting booths that might never have voted without his movie. I guess where we part company is that I think we could have won, and you think we did win, so there's no meeting of the minds to have a discussion. I respect your view, because I do think we were cheated, but just not by enough to actually throw the election. I'm willing to admit that because I can conceive of some reasons that we could have lost. I saw a lot of flaws in the campaign, and the first one was probably way back even before Iowa when our party leaders tried to get all the candidates to toss in their towels before the first caucuses in Iowa in the name of some sort of party unity. That was just BS, and it let the media say we stood for nothing but just being against Bush. The whole election last year was cavalcade of missed opportunities and miscues- we can't just forget all that and say we won. At least I can't.

Officials are instead starting to favour the rather less snappy phrase "struggle against violent extremism" as the administration puts increased stress on longer term initiatives - diplomatic, economic and educational - to defeat terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/27/wterr27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/27/ixnewstop.html

Posted by: oncall at July 26, 2005 09:52 PM

Commentary about my own post ( have done this before, so don't think I am too weird.)

I agree with the sentiment, but I am absolutely positive that when progressive presented in the past, we were ridiculed.

The last analysis I read, Kerry lost ground with middle America because of the tax thing. People earning 100-200K didn't want to have their taxes go up. Nevermind that the info they had wasn't accurate. That's our fault, perhaps.

I still think that in America, it's all about money.

Posted by: Amy at July 26, 2005 10:00 PM

That's despite Kerry's promises that he wouldn't raise taxes for incomes up to $200K/yr.

The sad thing is, Bush's tax cuts got many Americans spoiled. WARTIME tax cuts at that! Nobody wants to give that up, or give up their Suburbans and Exploitations. This is one hell of a spoiled country, for sure.

My mother recently read a report on the lifestyle of the average Briton, and was pleasantly surprised by the frugality (like driving a beat-up econobox for decades) and high quality of life. Of course I filled her in on what makes the difference between the average Briton and the average American - better healthcare for Britons, obsession with money and power for Americans.

The first best most important thing we have to do is send God back to the houses of worship, and refuse to be baited with Him/Her/It as a talking point. We need to start saying that religion is private, thank you, and I'm not going to mix my political life with that part of my private life. If you can't deal with it, I'm sorry, but what the divine means to me, belongs to me.

Posted by: tutterfly at July 26, 2005 10:01 PM

Absolutely, tut! This is one point I use to fight gay marriage bans. (The other is framing it as an issue for all singles.) So far it's worked well, even with many devout Christians.

Of course, they also need to be reminded that if they want religion and politics to be mixed, they can always move to Saudi Arabia or Iran. If they cry foul because these countries are Muslim, I will tell them that Islam and Christianity are two sides of the same coin.

What I mean is, wouldn't it be refreshing, now, long before the 2006 elections get here, we all start talking about how much our religious privacy means to us? People want their religious privacy, but they've been baited into wearing it on their sleeve.

I hope you all saw this timeline from the NYT. It puts Conyer's document into a different light.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2005/07/21/politics/20050722leak_graphic.html

Linda,

See...I think we learned alot! I think we learned that we need to get the corporations OUT of media and election equipment!

We learned we have the ability to organize grassroots.

We learned we need to get our voters to be willing to take that day off work and to stand in line 24 hours if need be!

We learned our election workers should bring food, drink, chairs, just like they had to when they registered black voters in the south 50 years ago.

We learned we need to talk to people year round, not just 3 months before an election.

We learned we need to have a spine!

We learned we need to register people months and months before an election and then check back with them to make sure they know where they vote.

We learned we need to make sure our election officials have been trained months and months before the election so they know where ballots are kept, who goes to which booth (and why), and we learned we need to train people to effectively advocate for their cause.

I think we also learned another thing: when people get "spam called" for 6 months prior to an election they tune it out. That's why we have to keep on truckin' now so they're on board before the last minute push.

Wow - Tutt - that is really great. We should jump all over that and get that message right out there - "religious privacy"....I love that!

Amy- it is about money, and the media's continuous support of Bush is about the corporate tax cuts he gives to their owners. I was amazed the other day when they absolutely announced on CNN that now that Bush had nominated John Roberts to the Supreme Court, the Plame story would no longer be the story of the day. In other words, they were admitting that they controlled the story, that they supported Bush's efforts to change their focus, and that they just flat-out intended to abandon the Plame story in favor of the story Bush wanted in the news. It was a huge confession on CNN's part, and it was repeated almost all day long on the network. It's all about money, and as long as we continue to be the party of working Americans instead of the party that belongs to owners of the corporate media we're not going to have MSM's support in any election. All we get is clear consciences, damn it.

Sparrow- we also need a national holiday on voting day and polls that really do not close as long as anyone is in line waiting.
And that having a provisional ballot is having no ballot at all. It might as well be thrown in a garbage can as handed to an elections official.
But I still think we could have learned more lessons.

More Poll Blues for Bush

CNN/USATODAY/GALLOP POLL

Did Bush Deliberately mislead country on Iraqi WMD

Yes 51%

No 47%

http://www.crooksandliars.com/

Well, Linda, there are always more lessons, but sometimes no one real answer.

It's like I told my daughter, 'striving is great, but there is never perfection and there is always going to be something different you could have done."

I think the election is like that. And looking at your post above where you say CNN admitted they're turning off Rove and turning up the Roberts talk...well, that reminds me of my "epiphany" with the GOP networks when they said, "You think what we want you to think...oh, I mean you think what we give you in our reports."

At the time, I thought it was a fruedian slip. Now, I'm wondering if it was a confession and a HINT!

To those talking about the election -

I'm wondering what people think about Hillary Clinton's idea that the DLC and DNC ought to quit squabbling?

& what impact will the splitting off of the Teamsters and SEIU from the AFL/CIO have on organizing for 2006 and 2008?

Would love to hear comments from people who have been following these stories. I don't have links right here as I just got off work & have to eat, & all my info is from NPR & Google News looked at over lunch.

--These related to some things Linda was just saying.

Thanks also to whomever pointed out that John Kerry was right about having bilateral rather than six-party talks with North Korea - leave it to Bush to steal all Kerry's ideas when his own don't work.

Also, why did all the WA & OR Dem Senators vote for CAFTA? We had slavery on a national scale & now we have outsourcing on a global scale. Same principle, similar or different?

--One more - When Bush meets with leaders of African American churches and social organizations and tells them how he's going to approach more corporations about making faith-based contributions to them -- isn't this also laying groundwork for them to owe him a favor for the next elections? Isn't it like using the megachurches of the exurbs & then adding to them the churches of the blacks & Hispanics who traditionally vote Democratic?

Linda, I guess what we need to do then is to convince people that Bush's policies will lead to LESS money for them in the long run. We tried the "your grandchildren will have to pay for this war" thing, but it turns out that people don't really care as much about their grandchildren as they do about their money.

Did I tell you last week that I saw a bumper sticker which read:

Jesus said; "It's your money, keep as much of it for yourself as you can."

I liked that one. But as my friend pointed out, the length of it is a problem, the print was too small.

---------------

Tutt, you're bang on with the "religious privacy" thing. Great idea.

Gosh, we're all brilliant in here tonight! (Of course, we're always brilliant.)

sparrow- and don't forget the statement Bush made recently that he sometimes had to repeat things over and over, because that was the only way he could get the propaganda out.
An amazing statement, that I only saw on Comedy Central and MSNBC. I don't think any other networks even covered it.

lol-Linda.

I didn't see that.

--One more - When Bush meets with leaders of African American churches and social organizations and tells them how he's going to approach more corporations about making faith-based contributions to them -- isn't this also laying groundwork for them to owe him a favor for the next elections? Isn't it like using the megachurches of the exurbs & then adding to them the churches of the blacks & Hispanics who traditionally vote Democratic?

Posted by: DiAnne at July 26, 2005 10:25 PM

DiAnne, this is one of the scariest things this administration has done yet. And they've done some scary things.

Dianne,

Yes, Bush is good at stealing things. Especially John Kerry's ideas. Personally, I hope he's NAILED for that as are Republicans who spoke out against Kerry being "too soft' or whatever garbage they spewed.

Next, I agree with Clinton. Dem's middle, inbetween, left, whatever need to stop shooting each other! We need to UNITE just like the neoCONS did with the Corporate Gangsters.

Next, Religion is personal and didn't we all try that last election? BUT I agree these corporate donations are indeed a way of "bribing" for the next election. BUT it's gonna have to be a pretty BIG bribe to make blacks forget their years of abuse and last year's elections.

Amy, yes, brilliant! We're all brilliant. We should be hired as political consultants and talking heads. Maybe we can take over the anchor spots on all the fake media shows.

Speaking of bumper stickers...I suppose this one might be over the line:

neoCONS have an open tent policy, it's called TENT CITY coming to a town near you.

Maybe we can take over the anchor spots on all the fake media shows.

Posted by: sparrow at July 26, 2005 10:36 PM

That would be nice. Alas, it would last a nanosecond, and then we'd be gagged.

N*********new thread!*************

And on that note

Fare thee well, all!

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

Barry Goldwater

Years and years ago, when I met my very first fundementalists, I shelved them as typical religious crazies and forgot about them. Their numbers were small and they were deep into speaking in tongues and healing their broken appliances. Seriously, they laid hands on their fridge to fix it. I don't know if the fridge got healed, I never saw the people again.

The thing that gets me, is I never thought they would amount to much more than what I saw. How in the name of anything sane, did these people get to be so influential? Are all their appliances working? Did the teevee-angelists put something happy into their every day lives? I for one have NEVER sat thru one of those 700 club or mega church shows. It just didn't ever click with me that God was coming over the airwaves.

And, how many lonely people have sent tons of their hard earned money to their favorite teevee-angelist? Did they learn nothing from Jim and Tammy Faye? Or is it like picking a favorite soap opera? When a minister has a bit too much in the way of riches, shouldn't people wonder about how much 'healing' their twenty bucks bought?

And, I've never gotten over being pissed off at the people who are going to pray for my hell bound soul. Have they SEEN my ticket, marked hell? It's hell living around people who seem to be so hardwired to God. I must be in the small minority that has no clue if I'm one of the chosen people. Then there are those people hanging out planning to be rapturized. Are you kidding me? Hello--isn't that taking a belief in a bunch of fictional books a little close to the crazy house? If I went around saying that Hogwarts was a real place, I'd get locked up you know.

The people who are really really interested in saving my soul look a lot like jailers to me. Last time I checked, the good Lord gave the soul to me, with some free will kicked in and the rest was up to me. Those Dobsonites, and Perkinswhacks, and all the other Schiavo hangers on frockers give me the creeps. I just know they don't have a 'personal relationship' with God. For pity sake, you have to beleive that God would pick better people to do His P.R.

But, they did a damn fine job of joining forces, you have to hand it to the fundies. Poor people supporting rich people who plan to get even richer while the poor people get poorer, and they are happy about it. They will pray their way right out of poverty and into Republican bliss on the way to heaven.

I made the mistake of saying to a very very deep in the worship Bush division of the fundie movement that her hero was going to get his own wing in hell, and the woman looked like she was trying to come up with a curse bad enough to lay on me. If I had gotten any boils or had a locust invasion on my front lawn, I might have worried, but I'm pretty much fine, so I guess she didn't have her wand to zap me.

If it looks like I'm trying to make fun of them again, like we all did way back when, you're right. It's about time that sane people just put the kooky label back on them where it belongs. Hey, they can do their thing, I'm cool with that. They can whoop it up for God in any way they see fit. But, jeeze enough is enough people.

We have reached a point where it's time to make politicians choose between God and government. You can't have it both ways, cause we know the cushy job means more to you than God anyoldhow, and it's not nice to fool religious whackos.

Tutterfly,

They got powerful because the corrupt corporations decided it was easier to shill through them to get what they wanted than to work with people who will question their motives.

Oil, gas companies applaud the measure, but environmentalists are solidly opposed.
WASHINGTON - Congressional negotiators clinched an agreement Tuesday on a national energy bill to boost oil and gas production, triggering a debate over whether the massive bill would steer the nation toward energy independence or just pour money into the pockets of producers.

This is a Bad Bill,period. Not just from an environmental perspective, but from a National Security position.