Rove Identified As Leak In The Plame Case

Now we are going to see what democrat and republican leadership is made of. If true the President of the United States is being counseled by a man who commited a felony, destroyed a company searching and tracking WMD, and betrayed the intelligence community.
It would tie in with manipulation of intelligence around the invasion of Iraq as well.

It is time for a senate investigation. if they refuse its time to remove senators on both sides.

Ok, I read the Josh Marshall and the link but I would like to know:

What is the next step that will or should happen to Karl Rove?

What are the implications for the Bush/Cheney administration?

What is the house prepared to do?

How can this be handled without the partison sides either going "bonkers" or the other side being "obstructionist and adding to a cover-up" (like in the election fraud investigation, the Downing Street Minutes, and the Tom Delay ethics commission.)

In other words, what is the broader implications of this and how will justice be served?

Treason must be punished.

I wonder how the American people will feel about a President whose chief political advisor is a traitor, who exposes vulnerable CIA operatives.

I wonder how many additional Americans would have voted against Bush if that single piece of information had been revealed before November 2nd.

Treason. Traitors must be punished. Those who consort with traitors, and hide their guilt, must also be brought to justice.

Cryano,
Will others (as in Republicans, Independents, Greens) see it as treason as well? Or even just plane old "duh...Americans" who don't hear the real news?

President George H.W. Bush has gone on record as saying that any person who outs a clandestine operative is guilty of treason. Of course, he didn't know at the time that his son's personal Mephistophele was going to commit this specific sin.

We just need to keep repeating Papa Bush's own characterization.

Cyrano,

So you think he didn't know?

I myself can not go that far. I just can't until it's investigated that he didn't. And I can not imagine Rove going down alone.

H.W. said it long before his son became President.

And, yes, if Rove is guilty, then he should have plenty of company on his ride back to hell.

Now everyone repeat after me:

"What did the President know, and when did he know it?"

What did the pResident know, and when did he know it?

When will we have our independent media on tv, Cyrano? I'm worried we can't "win" until we do!

TV is the most important, in my opinion!

I believe that the IWT network is supposed to go online sometime in 2006.

Before the election cycle?

Not sure. We may have to make do with what we have for the mid-terms. Bush is certainly giving us plenty of opportunities.

TV is the only thing.

TV is still the only source of news for 89% of Americans. That's a lot of power. We cyber-types often forget that.

Don't count on anything happening as a result of Rove's being IDed as the leak in the Plame affair. Heck, Novak hasn't even been questioned by the courts. We'll have a lot of noise among progressives, and that will be it.

Let's focus on winning some senate and congress seats.

More investigations into another Republican:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/01/AR2005070101905_pf.html

We win the midterms by convincing the American people that the party in power has become arrogant, and is guilty of abuse of power. That theme helps all Democrats and Progessives.

Rove committed a crime, and a serious one at that. He didn't lie about sex, he outed a CIA operative for political advantage. And the President is still in bed with him.

We all understand the potential destruction of the Brush Presidency is looming. Getting to the facts has to be seen as the primary goal. Politics has to be kept to a minimum. We have to pursue the justice that this crime requires.

I wonder if this is one of Rove's ultimate bait and switch tactics so that the conversation is changed to his felonious behavior in order to distract from the upcoming SCOTUS debate and other pending issues? Is he that "devoted" to the cause?

For those who can still stomache bearing witness...

Me and Rossi have found something again highly disturbing and this post relates more to the last thread on winning hearts and minds.

Again we have found pictures, these taken in Bagdhad in 2003. They show AMERICAN soldiers forcing young Iraqi men, completely stripped NAKED down the street, through a kids park, in broad daylight.

These pictures are posted at our site

www.rebellenation.blogspot.com

Three different sources are listed with them.

We've increased our goal for the DU Activist Corps to 1000 people!
Posted by Skinner
Added to homepage Sat Jul 02nd 2005, 12:18 PM ET

Yesterday afternoon, I posted a thread proposing a DU Activist Corps, where we set a minimum goal of 500 people to get the group started. The response has been overwhelming! We got more than 500 sign-ups from committed DU Activists in less than 24 hours, so we've decided to increase our goal to 1000!

The idea is simple: Identify and bring together the members of our community who are willing to make a personal commitment to activism. Only after we have a critical mass of people who have made that personal commitment, we can start the hard work of actually trying to make a difference.

For more information, and for instructions on how to sign-up as a member of the DU Activist Corps, please visit this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Skinner
DU Admin

Discuss this topic (16 responses)

Christy,

I would like to see that link, but I can't find it. Where on your site is it posted? Don't post the link, please. I suspect that DCP believes that the pictures you are describing are very serious indeed, but if they have not yet been verified discretion is necessary.

It will be interesting to see what comes of Rove being named as Cooper's source, through the Time docu dump to the court.
Did Novak tell all to the grand jury already and will Cooper's notes affirm Rove as the source?
We know the WH spin machine is ready to go into high gear, depending on how much "play" this gets in MSM. So far, its only perking around on the internet. Hopefully, the day Newsweek comes out with the "It's Rove" article, it will be an otherwise slow news day, so this can get max exposure. You know the MSM can only cover 1 story a day!

Novak said he was told Plame's ID by 2 sources, so if Rove was one, then the 2nd source has not yet been named. How close will this come to VP Cheney & his guy, Libby?
Is this tied in with Downing Street memo, and /or Bolton, and the "un-named" people Bolton had info on, and those documents the WH will not turn over to the Senate?

I went over to a few rightwing blogs to see what they are saying. They're not giving it much attention, although redstate.org had a thread, and the opinions seem to fall into 2 categories: that Rove would not be this stupid to do something that can be traced (!) and secondly, that IF he did it, then what's the big deal, since they're pushing the story line that Plame was not "covert" or under deep CIA cover, so outting her is no crime.
They are not discussing the consequences of what will happen if Rove lied to the grand jury, when he gave testimony.
That may very well be what unravels this ball of corruption....not the crime itself, but the perjury...if its not so much "what" Rove did, but did he lie under oath, can anyone prove that, and then...who has been "IN" on the cover-up....

I have always felt that Bu$h is mostly an empty suit. That Cheney runs the international part and Rove runs the domestic agenda. If Fitzgerald can prove Rove perjured himself, Rove may or may not be facing a sentence. But at the very least, to keep Bu$h unsoiled, the WH is going to have to fire Rove...
Can Bu$h's WH function without Rove???
Can Bu$h function without Rove????
Are they all above the law????
I hope not.
I still believe justice and the truth will prevail.

Frog march! Frog march!

(blogging from Blenz Coffee, Robson St., Vancouver BC)

dianne,
DU is having a good time, with the "frog march" idea!
here,
http://tinyurl.com/87qle
and here,
http://tinyurl.com/ey9z2

Yahoo news has picked up the story:

Lawrence O'Donnell: Rove Blew CIA Agent's Cover

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/huffpost/20050702/cm_huffpost/003556_200507021151

to anyone interested, re-visit this 2003 article by Ron Suskind on Karl Rove and his tactics:

http://www.ronsuskind.com/newsite/articles/archives/000032.html

From the previous thread:

"The MSM should be asking questions such as, "Where are the photographs? What is dipicted on those photographs? What were the marines doing for over an hour inside the house by themselves?"
I am sure the MSM will be right on the story after they get back from Aruba."
Posted by Casey Morris at July 2, 2005 02:10 PM

Casey, if that isn't one of the most heartbreaking stories I've read.... the soldiers were undoubtedly in the house putting together a story to explain what was probably a terrible, horrible mistake. I'm sure these mistakes happen more than we know.

We are responsible for this. We are the people, collectively, who were too disinterested to discover whether or not an invasion of Iraq was really necessary to protect America. Instead of seeking to understand the global issue of terrorism, we, through our elected politicians, lazily allowed our leaders to make decisions based on their own fears, and the fear they instilled in us, rather than insisting on provable facts, diplomatic insight, and wisdom. Yes, that old-fashioned thing, wisdom.

We elected a government that is so weak and fearful that it put our young men and women into a situation, yet again, where they are never sure who the real enemy is. Every day, every moment for these young American volunteers is one fraught with fear for their own lives, fear that they will be one of the many soldiers who never see their wives, children, husbands and loved ones again.

We created this mess. Democrats and Republicans both supported this invasion, and we have to stop talking as if it was only Republicans who brought us to this. There are many Republicans who objected to this war, and many more Democrats who supported it, in fact wanted it before BushCo took over the White House. Even John Kerry, after no WMDs were found, said he would still support it.

We are all to blame; and half of Americans are indifferent to the plight of both our volunteer soldiers and the Iraqi people. It's a shameful state of affairs.

Can Bu$h's WH function without Rove???
Can Bu$h function without Rove????
Are they all above the law????
I hope not.
I still believe justice and the truth will prevail.

Posted by: on.to.victory4Dems at July 2, 2005 05:45 PM

Heh, heh.......Who says God does not answer prayers.........

(blogging from Blenz Coffee, Robson St., Vancouver BC)
Posted by: DiAnne at July 2, 2005 06:18 PM

Oh that I were there with you!!

Heh, heh.......Who says God does not answer prayers.........

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at July 2, 2005 06:49 PM

I'm praying, I'm praying!!

It may be a little premature, but I don't think so, and I am doing the happy dance!

Scoobitee doo wahhh.......

I just witnessed a miracle

This is a conversation i had earlier on yaoo with Rossi.

Rossi: Christy girl are you around

Christy: yup

Christy: something astounding has happened

Christy: a miracle

Rossi : Hey bloody Pete kep me up till bloody 4 30 this morn listenting to the live 8 concert the bugger we tried to get you but to no avail

Rossi : a miracle tell me

Christy: my aunt who was murdered..we lost contact with two of her kids they were just shattered from us..earlier my cousin Kerry left a message on my families blog

Christy: she must have googled her mothers name and she came right to us the blog pops up in refrence to her

Rossi : I shit Christy no Oh shit i have goose bumps running up me, Oh God can you believe that

Christy: its been 15 years

Christy: my god

Rossi: Oh christy can you believe that Can you believe where this all has bought us

Rossi: something so astounding

Christy: no i can not..the blog i gave my mother in less than a month has returned her sisters lost child to her

Rossi: Oh that is just too profound

Christy: her post is under my aunts pic on our blog..shes just there..just like that

Rossi: Let me check it out

Christy: my god im just weeping i dont really know why

Christy: thats incredible

Its True...She HAS found us again. Thats incredible

Posted by: sparrow at July 2, 2005 05:34 PM

Sparrow,

Here's my post to that thread:

DemocracycellProject.net has doing what you are talking about

for the past year. It is a site dedicated to the cybercommunity of Activists. There is a forum where people can post their activities. We share ideas via the net and provided feedback and communicate ideas. The forum has a book chat and other unique features. There is a chat room for instantaneous conversation. The blog supplies thoughful subject threads and posts. The Democracy Cell Project (DCP) is a non-profit organization with a bold approach to using online communications to integrate, educate, and include the millions of people across America who are ready to work for a more democratic country. The DCP is dedicated to assisting individuals and communities to tighten their messages, build coalitions, and organize on the ground to make political change a reality. The DCP provides leadership in developing messages and organizing from the ground up. Through its website, the DCP hosts a learning community, giving activists access to the tools and the train-ing they need to mobilize and activate their own democracy cells. At the Democracy Cell Project, we value your advice and your ideas. You are our partners in making this site as useful as it can possibly be. With your participation, we will build a site that will help people everywhere be more effective fighters for a more democratic country. Visit it, I think you will find exactly what we need for a cybercommunity of activists who are already making a diffence. We could use more.

I love this comment from Media Lies Daily, on DU:

"If Herr Busch pardons Rove, the deepest and darkest CIA files would open faster than a retail store for Thanksgiving Day sales."

Dare I hope that some justice will finally be done after all of this anti-American activity on the part of the Neocons?

Documents Said to Reveal Karl Rove as Source in Plame Case
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/070205Z.shtml

I hope this is true....

I said months ago I was torn on this issue. Now that more facts have come out, I'm not.

With Watergate, the situation was different. Deep Throat could not go to his supervisors; they were in on the cover-up, so nothing would have been done with his information about criminal activities. A crime had been committed and he was outing the crime and the criminals, so in that light, Woodward and Bernstein were right in keeping their source confidential, IMHO.

With outing a CIA agent doing undercover work, the issue is naming the person who outed a CIA agent - which is a felony, and that person can go to jail for outing the agent - and in this case, the sources need to be revealed so the Grand Jury can know who to charge with a felony for outing an agent. In this case the sources need to be revealed, IMHO. A crime has been committed in outing Plame. A journalist does not need to risk his or her career in aiding and abetting a criminal act - for which that journalist can be charged and go to jail. A journalist can out his or her source without a guilty conscience - and maybe avoid going to jail for aiding and abetting the person who outed Plame.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is why the Supreme Court takes cases with fine lines, and why they do things on a case-by-case basis. The Supreme Court has done us a favor by demanding the notes be turned over to the Grand Jury. At least in this case, I agree with them. As a person who used to work in law enforcement, I've wanted the person who outed Plame to be named for a very long time. That person had no right to out a spy working for our government, and it was illegal to do so in any case, no matter who did it, or why it was done (altho I suspect Wilson has a case in thinking it was done to retaliate against his correct assessment regarding the lead-up to Bu$h's war in Iraq, and Bu$hCo didn't want his correct answer, but a false interpretation of facts...).

I still think the Supreme Court judgement about the Fifth Amendment by taking away personal property to give to a corporation who wants to build condos and a mall for private gain (certainly not public use for public gain) stinks.... but, that's only my opinion.

In any case, if it was Rove who outed Plame... yeah, I'd like to see the sucker frog marched out in handcuffs and taken off to jail...!!! I'd like to see sound bytes about that as often as MSM has mentioned Clinton's sexual encounter!!! I want to hear about it on MSM so often I become bored senseless seeing the sound bytes and hearing about it; I want to become comatose with boredom hearing about it... if MSM will do that (if it was Rove - and remember, it's only alleged right now, not a fact until or unless he's charged), I'll go back to watching MSM news on TV...!

Unfortunately, I think the hullabaloo about who will be the next Supreme Court justice will overshadow news about who outed Plame, and I suspect Rove will somehow escape attention and if it's mentioned on MSM at all, I think they'll gloss over it in about five seconds during the long weekend when no one's watching MSM infotainment news. Next week all the infotainment news will be speculation about who pResident Nitwit will name to replace O'Connor, and the info about who outed Plame will be old news..... and not mentioned on MSM.

Posted by: NonnyO at July 2, 2005 07:17 PM

If we let this one go, we ARE brain dead and past apathetic.

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at July 2, 2005 07:25 PM

I couldn't possibly agree with you more!!! :-)

I think I'll send that TruthOut story to the local media outlets, maybe a few national media outlets.... It's just not "fair" that only the bloggers know this news... :-)

In any case, MSM OWES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SOME TRUTH IN REPORTING FOR A CHANGE!!! They've been derelect in their duties as the public conscience since the Selection of 2000, and it's time they repent and repair the damage they've done in covering up the White House daily lies they've kept repeating...!!!

DU questions if people were assasinated as a result of the Plame outing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4004841

Hey great response oncall!

Nonny,

In the immediate period,for the next two to four months, the SCOTUS probably will get more media attention because of the POLITICAL BATTLE between the Reds and Blues, Dems and Repubs, Right and (versus) Left, Faith based and (versus) faithful (take your pick). The Bushco Propaganda machine would rather focus on that part of it rather than the issues a new Supreme Court Justice will have to decide. However, as we all know, the wheels of justice can grind slowly, and if Karl Rove isn't doing this in order to take the media attention off of the Justice issue, his case will drag on for at least five months. If the SCOTUS is decided in a three month time frame, the Propaganda machine will be forced to eat its own-including Karl Rove.

From Huffington Post:

Oh my, Karl Rove broke the law....tsk, tsk, tsk.

Get a grip guys. They will ignore this and drag it out until Bush leaves office.

For a bunch of thugs that have already murdered thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan, broken international treaties, allowed torture, used banned weaponry, and deformed unborn generations through depleted uranium, a perjury rap is something to laugh at. And they will do just that.

These barbarians make the Mafia blush.

Posted by: cyrus mossaddegh at July 2, 2005 02:54 PM
----------------------------

Let's face it - the frog moment was fun, but here we have the unvarnished truth.

"...or b) The Joseph Wilson revelations were so incredibly damaging to the administration's case for war that Rove sacrificed himself to get the info out there and discredit Wilson." from Huffington Post comments

-------------------------

Can someone help me get this story in proper temporal order? Is this anywhere near accurate?

1. BushCo says Saddam buying yellow cake, as part of their systematic beefing up/manufacturing/cherry-picking of intelligence to support a Neocon invasion of Iraq

2. Joe Wilson investigates, says the intelligence is bogus, finds evidence of fraudulence re documents obtained through Italian intelligence

3. BushCo threatens Wilson with the leaked ID of his wife as a covert CIA agent involved in WMD tracking...?

4. Novak is the first to publish this leak. No repercussions.

5. Other journalists question Novak's column, and are prosecuted...?

I'm missing something.

Oncall,

Some Dude on D.U. must like the DCP as well. This is what Ray of Light wrote:

I'm glad Skinner is offering activism,
But I want to encourage you to visit the Democracy Cell Project as well. First, they have a special 5 minutes a day for people who really can only sneak in 5 minutes a day toward a healthy democracy. http://www.democracycellproject.net visit the home page daily for different ideas.

Then, in the forum, there is a action alert system for people to check as often as they can. If you look there, you will see that Ralph seems to be the action man on that front for the Democracy Cell Project. http://www.democracycellproject.net/forum/index.php?showforum=121 Although Suz seems to have posted a bunch of sites relevant to the Supreme Court nominations http://www.democracycellproject.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=742

There is a lot of things the Democracy Cell Project has to offer, but there is one other thing I want to mention: The Democracy Cell Project is boots to the ground in your local community. It's about getting involved from the ground up. THIS is the idea Rove used to involve the churches--familiar people in familiar places. The idea is to build a coalition in your own community even using specific LOCAL issues or state issues as a basis for your group and then expanding it to the National level. Why is this important? Well, it's important because each community has public servants who can help the cause or hinder the cause. Each local public servant is getting training to step up the ladder to provide even better service to you and the community. If you want YOUR issues addressed and you want your rep to represent you and be a "power broker" then you've got to get them the experience in the food chain. NeoCONS have been doing this for years and we must start now.

In the meantime, I'm thrilled D.U. will offer this service as well. For each activist we have, we have a better chance of getting the government we want.

Amy,
I'm clueless, but I bet you can pm Casey. She usually knows.

Ohio Democrats victims of break-in
Thieves grab computer from party headquaters in Columbus

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050702/NEWS03/50702005

"COLUMBUS — Thieves targeted the Ohio Democratic Party Headquarters this week, stealing a computer and a high-tech communications gadget belonging to party chairman Denny White.

Police said yesterday one or more burglars appeared to have climbed a wall Monday and crawled through an unlocked second-story window overnight at the party headquarters about three blocks from the Statehouse.

The break-in occurs at a time when the Ohio Republican Party is threatened by one of the largest scandals to hit the state’s government in decades.

Some Democrats also say the break-in is eerily similar to a burglary at the Lucas County Democratic Party Headquarters last fall, in which three computers were stolen."

Amy,

Isn't that Ohio thing amazing! It's like Watergate all over!

http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/laws/iipa.html

National Security Act of 1947
TITLE VI—PROTECTION OF CERTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION
PROTECTION OF IDENTITIES OF CERTAIN UNITED STATES UNDERCOVER INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS, AGENTS, INFORMANTS, AND SOURCES
SEC. 601. (a) Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

(b) Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identity of a covert agent and intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

(c) Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual’s classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(d) A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment.

DEFINITIONS

SEC. 606. For the purposes of this title:

(1) The term "classified information" means information or material designated and clearly marked or clearly represented, pursuant to the provisions of a statute or Executive order (or a regulation or order issued pursuant to a statute or Executive order), as requiring a specific degree of protection against unauthorized disclosure for reasons of national security.

(2) The term "authorized", when used with respect to access to classified information, means having authority, right, or permission pursuant to the provisions of a statute, Executive order, directive of the head of any department or agency engaged in foreign intelligence or counterintelligence activities, order of any United States court, or provisions of any Rule of the House of Representatives or resolution of the Senate which assigns responsibility within the respective House of Congress for the oversight of intelligence activities.

(3) The term "disclose" means to communicate, provide, impart, transmit, transfer, convey, publish, or otherwise make available.

(4) The term "covert agent" means—

(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency—

(i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and

(ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; or

(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and—

(i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, or

(ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or

(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.

(5) The term "intelligence agency" means the Central Intelligence Agency, a foreign intelligence component of the Department of Defense, or the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

...more...

and how deep was Valerie Plame's cover?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089062 /

excerpt:

Nonofficial cover. NOCs (the word rhymes with "rocks") are the most covert CIA operatives. They typically work abroad without diplomatic protection (often they pretend to work for some commercial enterprise). If these spies are caught, there's no guarantee that the United States would admit their true identities. When using official cover could put a spy's life and work at risk, NOC is the only alternative.

Why is it such a big deal that someone outed Valerie Plame? For starters, it's a felony. And Plame was also reportedly a NOC with years of experience investigating weapons of mass destruction. If this is true, her discovery could compromise intelligence operations she was involved with around the world, which would explain why she maintained her nonofficial cover even when she was back in the United States. "Hard target" countries like China and North Korea often keep records of every known meeting between Americans and their scientists and officials. Almost certainly, those lists would have been frantically reviewed when Plame's identity was revealed, and any sources she recruited could have been exposed.

UIA

This is going to be VERY interesting when the American Taleban gets wind of it being Rove. For ONCE, I am GLAD they are in bed with the Republicans.!.

George may feel pressure now more than ever to put an extreme conservative on the Supreme Court, to "redeem" his administration, to try once again to show their "righteousness", and to try to calm the American Taleban. It might be too late for Rove, however. Well, if they ship him to prison, he will have a REAL chance to convert. (lol)

And, I don't want Bush cutting him any favors. If he wouldn't do it for Karla Faye Tucker, he shouldn't do it for Karl Rove. Even
if Karl finds religion.

Truth,

Rove is takin people down with him. I guarentee it!

"I have known this for months but didn't want to say it at a time that would risk me getting dragged into the grand jury." Lawrence O'Donnell

My question to O'Donnell is: Why didn't you out the criminal and the crime if you knew who did it??? Why didn't you want to appear before the Grand Jury??? Keeping the name a secret means you aided and abetted the crime and the criminal....

And, yes... What about Novak??? Why hasn't he been forced to tell who his leak was or turn over his notes???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by: oncall at July 2, 2005 07:34 PM

I agree with you, OC... And, if it is proven Rove was the leak, I think pResident Nitwit will pardon him in a New York minute - using some nitwit excuse about 'putting the past behind us and moving on.'

This, too, shall be swept under the rug, or buied among ads on about page 20 of any large metro newspaper with one paragraph....

My attitude is that we can use Rove's treason to de-legitimize the entire Bush Administration.

Bush had to know about Rove's role, and yet he kept him on staff. Bush must have been directly involved with the coverup.

This ain't oral sex. This is a federal offense.

I want Karl in the Federal Prison System. I want him doing time with common criminals.

Posted by: oncall at July 2, 2005 08:45 PM

Refining my message and my frame: faith based versus values driven.

So where does Novak fit into all this? Wonder if he was accepting money under the table from Rove?

Hmmmm- maybe Bush will nominate Gonzalez to the court, which will anger his far right pals, but not make the dems too angry, in exchange for the Dems not pushing the Rove connection too far.
Sorry, but I have a backroom politics brain. Rove is going to have to be sacrificed in the end, but Bush is going to try to pull his plug as quietly as he can. I'll bet the phone lines are humming in DC right now.
There's just too much news on the blogs tonight for this thing not to explode tomorrow.

Oncall...

I'll help you refine your message...

If Karl Rove did indeed, as alleged, purposefully for political gain and revenge release the name an active CIA agent...

Get a ROPE!

The bastard deserves to hang!

And since Bush is pro-death penalty...he should have no problem with it...right?

Pardon my Patriotic butt...

The truth hurts doesn't it Karl...slobbery ol' Kujo mutt...

BAD DOG!

Posted by: oncall at July 2, 2005 07:34 PM

OK with me if this Rovian affair drags out for 5 months or so. I can wait. Rove on a Rope makes a great holiday present.

RE: Novak and why he's not being pursued by Fitzgerald...Maybe Novak already gave it up to Fitzgerald... Now, I don't like Novak one bit, but it is strange that he has remained untouched by all this, especially when everyone knows he leaked the story. And from what I understand about Fitzgerald, even though he's Republican, he's tenacious about getting to the truth.

I truly hope this story grows to be a monster...even if it takes time...a monster with legs, wings, and teeth... As I said in a previous thread, my fingers are crossed while holding my lucky rabbit's foot and I'm chanting "I do believe in fairies" endlessly...

NEWSWEEK just out with a story on Rove / Plame connection & time frame but it raises many questions, still not answered. Not sure where this will end, but it will get media coverage.

The Rove Factor?
Time magazine talked to Bush's guru for Plame story.

By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek July 11 issue

excerpt:
At issue is the story of a CIA-sponsored trip taken by former ambassador (and White House critic) Joseph Wilson to investigate reports that Iraq was seeking to buy uranium from the African country of Niger. "Some government officials have noted to Time in interviews... that Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, is a CIA official who monitors the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction," said Cooper's July 2003 Time online article.

Now the story may be about to take another turn. The e-mails surrendered by Time Inc., which are largely between Cooper and his editors, show that one of Cooper's sources was White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, according to two lawyers who asked not to be identified because they are representing witnesses sympathetic to the White House. Cooper and a Time spokeswoman declined to comment. But in an interview with NEWSWEEK, Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, confirmed that Rove had been interviewed by Cooper for the article. It is unclear, however, what passed between Cooper and Rove.

The controversy began three days before the Time piece appeared, when columnist Robert Novak, writing about Wilson's trip, reported that Wilson had been sent at the suggestion of his wife, who was identified by name as a CIA operative. The leak to Novak, apparently intended to discredit Wilson's mission, caused a furor when it turned out that Plame was an undercover agent. It is a crime to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA official. A special prosecutor was appointed and began subpoenaing reporters to find the source of the leak.

Novak appears to have made some kind of arrangement with the special prosecutor, and other journalists who reported on the Plame story have talked to prosecutors with the permission of their sources. Cooper agreed to discuss his contact with Lewis (Scooter) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's top aide, after Libby gave him permission to do so. But Cooper drew the line when special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald asked about other sources.

Initially, Fitzgerald's focus was on Novak's sourcing, since Novak was the first to out Plame. But according to Luskin, Rove's lawyer, Rove spoke to Cooper three or four days before Novak's column appeared. Luskin told NEWSWEEK that Rove "never knowingly disclosed classified information" and that "he did not tell any reporter that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA." Luskin declined, however, to discuss any other details. He did say that Rove himself had testified before the grand jury "two or three times" and signed a waiver authorizing reporters to testify about their conversations with him. "He has answered every question that has been put to him about his conversations with Cooper and anybody else," Luskin said. But one of the two lawyers representing a witness sympathetic to the White House told NEWSWEEK that there was growing "concern" in the White House that the prosecutor is interested in Rove. Fitzgerald declined to comment.

continue entire article here,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/

Cyrano,

Will the Congress chose to investigate THIS transaction, or is this another one of the 5 that I can list that they cover-up?

Indy,

Do you really think something will happen to Rove?

I think he'll slip right through.

Also, what is behind their back while we're drooling over this. It scares me. It makes me think this is a diversion. I see big "BEWARE" signs all over the place on this.

As much as I would like to see Rove go down the tubes on this; for now, I think we have to look at this from the perspective of trying to find the truth as to what actually happened. If that means Karl Rove becomes the central focus, well, that's life. If getting to the truth means going through Karl Rove, we flatten him If it is clear that Karl Rove knows more than he is admitting to, then we show no mercy.

As in every story that comes out of this den of thieves, it seems that the only way to treat it is as a good journalist might: Be skeptical of those who have a history of lying, do one's own research thoroughly, validate information whenever possible, and keep writing the truth as we know it.

As enticing as it can be to gloat, or even to publicly hope for an outcome in our favor, we all know from recent and painful experiences that the truth matters less to the MSM than profits do; that they have a penchant for aweeping unpleasant truth under any convenient rugs, and that NOTHING gives them more pleasure than to see us jump all over a rumor or a finding. They especially love it when we overstate a case--then they can shrug their shoulders and say something about "last week's news".

It is my intention to repeat the Rove connection to the Plame case often, with seriousness and clarity; to get the details right as we know them to be, to not exaggerate those details, and to leave space for the person I am speaking to to hear and understand what they will.

In my mind, it is always better to speak the truth without rancor, leaving room for the other person to forumulate his/her own, personalized, and owned sense of rancor and disgust.

We would hate to deprive others of their own principled responses, wouldn't we?

Treason is quite simply...

TREASON.

Since when has it become "politically incorrect" to describe the letter of the law?

Let Freedom Ring!

Or do we not have the stomache for the inevitable?

Those who have compromised the security of the United States and Her People deserve the same sentence they themselves have distributed to the innocent held as suspects of high crimes against our Nation.

Just as Rudolph W. Giuliani volunteered to pull the trigger once Osama bin Laden was captured...so should we all be willing to throw the switch on anyone who has unlawfully and through subversion, blatant lies and manipulation of the truth guided our Nation down such a path of reckless abandon in the name of greed and corruption.

War Crimes...High Crimes...LIES of the true heretics need to be met with extreme prejudice.

How will history remember we who allowed this in the beginning of the 21st century?

Not very well I fear.

I am not an attorney, but I know enough to know this is like the proverbial iceberg, what we know to be there is only a small part of the story. This is in the hands of the grand jury and that is done in secret. They have subpoena power over people, emails, phone logs, etc., so there is so much that no one can know yet. It is all speculation until the grand jury makes its decision and the floodgate of information opens. Will the GJ indict anyone in the WH? On obstruction of justice, perjury, intimidation of witnesses, etc.?
It will be an interesting summer, with Rovergate, SCOTUS nomination and POTUS's sinking poll numbers.
And can MSM stay busy all summer covering shark attacks?

I can't believe what I'm reading.
If my email is full of the same, it will be encouraging.
Next .. the Sunday papers? the dreaded talk shows?

Wiki Wiki Wik...Yo yo bang bang.

In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who betrays the nation of their citizenship and/or reneges on an oath of loyalty and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason

Do not allow the rhetoric of the current administration, any religious sect or personal insecuties cloud the "principled" response according to our Nation's laws that prevent the subversion of our American democracy.

The law is the line between values and principles. According to the Constitution...the LAW wins!

Fry the bastard!

Shall that be "Rove on a rope"?

Or shall it be the firing squad at dawn?

I for one do not subscribe to anyone tried and found guilty of treason walking along a beach with a metal detector enjoying his "Golden Years" in a maximum obscurity prison with satellite TV and three epicurian meals a day.

sparrow:

there was a breakin at the Columbus Democratic hdqtrs late last September right before the election. I had blogged last summer on the JFK site how stupid I thought that office was b/c none of their data of voting lists, volunteers, e-mail addresses and local fund raising sources WAS BACKED UP on a $35 scandisk jumpdrive, they had 0 security, 0 security cameras and 0 alarms in their office and lost vital info weeks before the election. PLEASE tell me this is not happening again and that this is not the same stupid office and they learned nothing from their last breakin. No wonder we never succeed in Ohio.
Was Howard Hunt or the Plumbers behind this?

Well Rove's lawyer said Karl talked to reporters but wasn't the leaker.

Treason
treason:noun; the offense of attempting to overthrow the government of one's country or of assisting its enemies in war.

From the United States Constitution:

Section 3 - Treason Note

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#TREASON

Corruption of Blood
Corruption of Blood was part of ancient English penalty for treason. It was usually part of a Bill of Attainder, which normally sentenced the accused to death. The corruption of blood would forbid the accused's family from inhereting his property. Such bills and punishments were often inflicted upon Tories by colonial governments immediately following independence.

Source: 381 US 437

Some major fake crisis will probably be used to
cover up all this. Rove will probably weasel
out of all this.

They are 'planning' an 'evacuation drill' out of DC on the 4th..

I have a bad feeling they are going to stage something horrible and use a 'plan' like that to say 'oh see we were working on it, we were doing something and gee we were just at the right place at the right time..We must be the heros here.'

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m13308&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Karl Rove Plame Leak Source: Yawn
Kurt Nimmo, Another Day in the Empire

Big deal. It appears Evil Karl, the demented genius of the Bush machine, is the leaker who outed Valerie Plame to Matt Cooper of Time Magazine, according to Greg Mitchell of Editor & Publisher. Karl, of course, wanted to burn Joe Wilson who came back from Niger saying Saddam wasn’t there picking up discounts of yellowcake uranium. So Karl outed Joe’s wife for payback. It is illegal under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act to reveal the identity of a CIA agent and a conviction can bring a maximum sentence of 10 years in the clink. Do you think Karl Rove will see the inside of a jail cell? Do you think he will actually be prosecuted? Judith Miller (the Mistress of Propaganda) may waste away in the jail because her employer refuses to spill the beans about her source to a grand jury, but chances are slim to none Evil Karl will ever have to watch the soap or wear an orange jumper. People like Karl Rove don’t go to jail, not unless they are caught red-handed killing six year olds and cannibalizing the remains. Rove may be forced to resign from the Bush administration and even if he is prosecuted the next president will pardon him just like Dubya’s daddy pardoned all those Iran-Contra criminals. Meanwhile, if you’re a black male in the Queens neighborhoods of Cambria Heights and Laurelton, you get racially profiled, dragneted, arrested, and interrogated because a cop was shot (or stabbed) in the leg while attempting to arrest somebody for smoking marijuana. I say it is high time we start profiling Bushcons, although long trials and convictions for crimes against humanity (a fantasy, I realize) and then inevitable pardons are too good for this lot. I believe a special (and remote) penal colony is in order, although I can imagine, left to their own devices, these guys would resort to something along the lines of William Golding’s Lord of the Flies in short order.

I hope if it's in the hands of a grand jury and real attorneys that the truth will be found. I hope appropriate people are punish. I hope if they find treason, whereever they find treason, they will be able to give justice to the American People.

Posted by: sparrow at July 3, 2005 09:38 AM

Sparrow,

I completely agree with you. Is Rove guilty of treason? It seems that is the case. As likely as it is that he is the source of the leak we need to be vigilant. We have to be sure that due process occurs before we immediately make the conclusion that he is guilty.

Courtesy of Americablog:

CNN.com, September 29, 2003:
McClellan said that if anyone at the White House leaked Plame's identity, he should be fired, and pursued to the "fullest extent."

"No one was authorized to do this. That is simply not the way this White House operates and if someone leaked classified information it is a very serious matter," he said.
===========================================
Well, personally I'm gonna enjoy watching Scott try to redefine "fullest extent" and "if someone leaked classified informaton it is a very serious matter..."

Can't wait.

Hang him? No, the crime is treason. We've suspected Karl for a long time, of course. He deserves nothing less than a firing squad, and not just for this offense. Let's get medieval him!