FIT THE BATTLE...

Dick/Karen: Thanks, as always, for your news reports from the field.

And it seems to me that when even hawks lend their presence to calls for peace, there just might be a glimmer of hope for a safer, saner future after all.

blessed are the peacemakers,
Otter

This is really cool. I was raised a Methodist in that spirit - summer camp in high school is where I got alot of my formative influence - from the college-age counsellors! We had a different social topic each day - the war in Vietnam, capital punishment, etc. - and it was great!

The group you are talking about - their website was on the marquee of the church down the street for awhile - it's Church of the Brethren (peace church), which used to house the SNOW meetings (umbrella org of neighborhood peace groups here).

Glad you could make it - will be heading out soon to the Backbone event here. Bin Laden (doll) has turned up - he was sitting on the shoulder of a big St. Francis statue, who is holding an American flag with an anarchy sign. Meanwhile, Howard Dean, Saddam Hussein, Michael Jackson and MC Hammer looked up in wonder from their longneck beer box (which now has more dolls than beers).

I think it is the work of my houseguest, a future Clinton intern who is supposed to be observing the Sabbath but has an impish sense of humor. He has the refridgerator light taped so it won't come on and it kept coming loose, so I reinforced it with tape that has the image of Jesus on it.

If this sounds blasphemous, consider that these 2 Jewish guys brought their Muslim friend to my place and were joking around calling him "our Palestinian" (he is Moroccan) or "our terrorist" (his wild hair and eyes look suspicious at borders). All of them are from Science Po in Paris, which means they are the future leaders of tomorrow (it's like attending Harvard or Yale but specialized Grand Ecole just for political science.)

I have had the best week! Veritas was here & she is probably on the road but what an amazing person! She brought Kosher everything for Sebastien - kosher chicken, kosher cake with bright colors, kosher sushi. Absolutely amazing! She is applying for a White House fellowship so they had alot to talk about.

I didn't mean to change the subject and I actually haven't. My message is religious tolerance vs religous extremism & the transformative power of love.

Well I'll be back, reporting as we confront the media with the giant Backbone!!

The hawk - that reminds me of a photo I have which was taken by Bert in Minneapolis. It was taken on a night when Americans all over the country lit candles and he was able to photograph the image of a candle next to a window, at night, and a dove flew by. It is actually captured in the photograph.

I had a friend who died of HIV - he was an artist & had a Sioux ceremony in South Dakota. A rainbow came out and an American Eagle flew across it.

In South Dakota, we went to a sweat lodge with Adam Sitting Crow and Adam Sitting Crow Jr. officiating (Sioux medicine men, Lakota). I was told that the next day the price of meat would go up 25 cents and that I'd see two red arrows crossed in the west. The next day meat did go up that much and I saw two jet trails crossing each other across the football field outside the student union, lit by the sunset - two red arrows.

He also blessed the trip of some students who then drove from SD to California on four bald tires without having any of them blow out.

I once made a beadwork Thunderbird and I showed it to a black man I met on a Greyhound bus (I was 15). He asked me to make him one. I blew it off for several months and didn't get around to it. Then he wrote to me, saying my address had come to him in a dream. I sent him mine!

This is some of my experience with miracles.

One of the unwelcome ironies of the unneccessary war in Iraq is that anyone and everyone who goes or gets sent there is acclaimed as a "hero" by the jingoisitic home-team media. Sometimes this is true. Sometimes it's not. (And it's *never* true in the case of the so-called private security contractors -- a mercenary by any other name is still just a killer for hire, and mercenaries can never be called heroes with a straight face.)

But that's not to say that warriors can't be heroes -- even warriors who choose to turn their weapons upon their own comrades in the field. In fact (although this may at first sound illogical), in certain circumstances, that's the highest kind of heroism there can be.

That was definitely the case in the spring of 1968, when a *real* American hero and his two brothers in arms pointed their guns at their own fellow troops and changed the course of history.

Please take a moment in the course of your anti-war activities today to honor the memory of Hugh Thompson, a little-known hero who passed away this week at the age of 62. Would that we could all be as courageous as Thompson and his two comrades were on that terrible day in the jungles of Vietnam...

-----

[snip]

Early in the morning of March 16, 1968, Thompson, door-gunner Lawrence Colburn and crew chief Glenn Andreotta came upon U.S. ground troops killing Vietnamese civilians in and around the village of My Lai.

They landed the helicopter in the line of fire between American troops and fleeing Vietnamese civilians and pointed their own guns at the U.S. soldiers to prevent more killings.

Colburn and Andreotta had provided cover for Thompson as he went forward to confront the leader of the U.S. forces. Thompson later coaxed civilians out of a bunker so they could be evacuated, and then landed his helicopter again to pick up a wounded child they transported to a hospital. Their efforts led to the cease-fire order at My Lai.

In 1998, the Army honored the three men with the prestigious Soldier's Medal, the highest award for bravery not involving conflict with an enemy. It was a posthumous award for Andreotta, who had been killed in battle three weeks after My Lai.

"It was the ability to do the right thing even at the risk of their personal safety that guided these soldiers to do what they did," Army Maj. Gen. Michael Ackerman said at the 1998 ceremony. The three "set the standard for all soldiers to follow."

[snip]

Full story here: http://tinyurl.com/9ao53

-----

make peace not war,
Otter

Crossposted at Kos:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/7/151054/9911

This comes from the church down the street that was promoting the Peacemakers. I think it's really great.

The new missionary philosophy puts the various religions on the same level, and thus the need for seeking for conversions is eliminated.

For a growing number of people at the policymaking levels of the Church of the Brethren, the focus in missions is shifting away from confrontation between Christian and non-Christian, and toward cooperation between Christians and persons of "other living faiths." In our missions promotional literature, conversion to Jesus Christ is noticeable by its absence.

Historic Christianity has always insisted that the gods of other religions are mere idols (Psalm 96:5). The Bible teaches clearly that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven (Acts 4:12; John 14:6), and that all who die without trusting His sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin, are headed for eternal destruction. The early Brethren missionaries regarded the nonChristian religions as false religions. They believed that Hindus and Buddhists and Moslems were in bondage to Satan, and that they could escape the wrath of God only by repenting of their heathen practices and accepting Jesus Christ. See Christian Heroism in Heathen Lands, Brethren Publishing House, 1914.

The cry today is that Christians must find ways to live together with persons of other faiths, and find ways to resolve the fundamental human problems that threaten the very survival of humanity itself. This is what the "World Conference on Religion and Peace" was all about.

I have passed that story on to the Religion editor at the Seattle Times.

More DCP fame:

http://www.counterpunch.com/rajiva01072006.html

Just got back from the Out of Iraq townhall in Livonia.

I would call the Livonia Townhall a terrific success. There were people (like me) who drove from 2 hours away to hear this information and to learn about what we can do to save our democracy.

Some stories not shared on the other thread:

1. One lady who was from NOLA but came to Michigan to see family was here. She described how the "core" people in the Dept. of Engineers were actually busy in Iraq creating and building their marshes instead of being available here in NOLA. While all of us agree, the infrastructure of Iraq IS important, particularly since we're the ones who broke it, the comments she made were focused on the infrastructure HERE in the USA that is falling apart, collapsing, and will leave the citizens of the US in as dire of circumstances as pre-WWII.

2. More comments...A different person spoke about the lobbyists in DC and why we as a person are doomed and hogtied. Representative Conyers spoke clearly about this. He said that the way to fight the lobbyists is not to sit a complain, but instead to involve yourself. To make calls to your representative, to make sure they remember YOU PAY THEIR salary. He made a point of saying that while you just talk or complain, you are weak; but when you speak out and bring others with you and you make sure your Congressmen know what you think, then you are impowered and that equals the field with the lobbyist. He also spoke about gaining your stregth and power by talking to others, by being the media, and by never accepting that they're bigger or stronger than you. John Conyers is truly an example of a person who fought the Civil Rights battles in the 60's and is still fighting for Civil Rights now. You can't just complain...you have to fight for it because they'll never just give it to you.

3. When I walked in the door, he was discussing the Nixon White House and how this administration is not only comparable to the White House but he explained how laws were passed as a result of Nixon's abuse of power. He believes this will happen now to the new Nixon.

Thanks, Suz. I am at the event here in DC, which is going beautifully. I'll try to report in as it unfolds.

Kevin Zeese reporting that only 31 % believe we can win in Iraq. Only 2% believe the Congress has the best interests of the military at heart.

DemocracyRising is sponsoring the One Hundred Votes Project. Brochsre says we are less than 100 votes away from a majority in the House supporting an exit strategy from Iraq.

http://www.DemocracyRising.US

This is a cool post! Go United Methodist Peacemakers!

I am so upset by this stupid war. What really bothers me is that scores of Iraqis are dying, and they're barely in the news. Only the death of US troops makes the news.

Hello Beth, You would have loved the event this morning.

Allen Lichtman making the point that when he went to Egypt, no one cared that he was Jewish, or that he was American. They just hate George W. Bush. That's 75 million people.

We could transform American education for what it costs to run the Iraq War for three months.--Lichtman

Lila Rajiva is now speaking. She is the author of The Language of Empire: Abu Ghraib and the American Media and is speaking to the terrors of war, particularly against women.

She says that the military would like us to believe that only low level soldiers commit these crimes. But she offers that fact that they were smiling and were proud.

We can see what happened in GITMO, because of the ACLU documents that reveal that Wolfowitz and Bush wrote memos in support of deceptive practices and torture.

Lila Rajiva speaks about the following:

http://aclu.org/intlhumanrights/gen/13794res20050429.html

and, on the rendition issue:

http://www.counterpunch.com/kleine01072006.html

David Swanson now speaking. Yesterday he heard, on radio shows, that if the military does it, it's legal. He tried to speak about the illegality about some of the tactics used: lies, weapons of horror, GITMO, etc. The line of thinking that allows the conclusions that this is all OK prevails.

We have to restore the international legal standard that Bush Sr. recommended. David calls for both impeachment and indictments.

Hi Karen. I just re-read the post again and it is really moving. Love the imagery of Jericho. Dick is a great writer.

I sent this link to several folks, including some Methodist pastors, who I know are into the whole peace thing.

love the live blogging, Karen! Thanks!

Questioner now asking about the rest of us--those who cannot see the need for withdrawal. How are we going to talk to them?

Answers: Cliff Kindy: He shares the issue of depleted uranium weaponry, and has seen the results of its use in Mosul and Fallujah. Babies born with deformities, with organs outside of the bodies. Secretary of Veterans Affairs resigned because 3/4 of veterans from Gulf War I are on permanent disability.

DU is far worse than Agent Orange in Vietnam.

Kevin Zeese: 3 arguments work:
1. We are now weaker than we were. And less safe.
2. The US has lost its moral purpose
3. We cannot win and, in fact, we are losing.

Bush knows American people will accept casualties AS LONG AS WE ARE WINNING.

Zeese thinks a great challenge for 2006 is the slow withdrawal of a few thousand troops. This will lull people. We cannot compromise.

Lila Rajiva: Point out the financial costs of the war. Money talks to right-wingers.

Allen Lichtman: Loss of resources simply not worth it. Be careful of the cut-and-run argument. It's a compelling issue for many. Respond by saying we are NOT cutting-and-running, but allowing the Iraqis to take charge of their own lives. Lichtman thinks we need to say it's an unwinnable war, not that we are losing. And finally, we need to stress that this war is having the oppsite effect of what Bush says: it is creating a more dangerous world, creating insurgents and making the job tougher.

David: Opposition to the war has grown more quickly because the justifications are no longer believed. What will end the war is understanding that there are lies everywhere.

Questioner asking whether or not Iran is just the next part of the war. Kevin Zeese says possibly, but it would a mistake. Iran is much larger, has a strong Shi'a community. It is however, part of the blueprint of the PNAC et al.

Karen great blogging. It sounds like they're giving wonderful, informative, and truthful information there.

What is the crowd like? And I'm curious, from having read other sites, what is the median age there? Are the young (teenagers and college age students) there too?

Oh...I forgot to mention...John Conyers spoke to my daughter...

And I shook his hand...I will never wash this hand ever again.....

Madame Defarge just called from north Chicago area. They had over 200 people in a library auditorium, 175 in an adjoining room--cramped--watching a live feed. And they had to turn away over 100 others.

She was very psyched. This war is in trouble...

Excellent!

Yes, This war is trouble!

sparrow-the room is full. Most of the usual suspects are here, but there are older lefties, younger people, and my poor son. This is his second straight day at Busboys and Poets. Fortunately, he loves the food....

From D.U. and ADS...

There were almost 400 people at our event in Madison WI

Posted by: Karen at January 7, 2006 05:59 PM

Well, maybe he'll be happier if you get his picture with someone important too. (No...not you or Dick...someone IMPORTANT!) (just kidding)

Sorry to report that the time posted by After Downing St. was wrong for Brooklyn, so I got there as all was ending.

The PDA points to ending the war are like Kerry's and Murtha's plan, although PDA is officially behind Murtha, as well as McGovern's plan to end funding. That's how we ended Vietnam.

A possible anti-war candidate to go against Hillary. I often say Bill is fashioning her to be another Margaret Thatcher. Will be on Air America, with Laura tonight, I believe, if interested.

Posted by: Marjorie G at January 7, 2006 06:02 PM

Thanks Marjorie,

I'm often surprised, both happily and sadly, to discover how much JK said last year and how much I learned on the blog ended up being true.

“Ritual of Social Exorcism” service

So that's what is going on in Washington?

Hey, just be serious for a few seconds. Who do you think is going to believe in that kind of fad?

I just hope for you it's not going to leak on international new because it makes you look as mere lunatics. Your country doens't need that extra foolish advertising.

Politics is a serious matter, with A PROGRAM, only a program, and just a program. It's serious. What are these people with a religious background doing in the middle of it, when your own constitution says that religion and church are separated???

It makes no sense.

Get down to the ground of law and real politics.

Posted by: Andrée - France at January 7, 2006 06:13 PM

Andree,

First, my understanding was that this was a "tradition" begun before the Nixon impeachment. Personally, if I thought standing on my head singing the alphabet song backwards while drinking jello shots would help get rid of this regime, I'd do it.

Though, yes, your point that they look foolish is a possibility. Well, in my viewpoint, at least they're doing something.

Also, the US IS a mix of religion and politics despite the Constitution. People on both sides used the Constitution to support their theory of "under God" "Without God" or "leave God out"...

And sadly, right now, it does seem to be politics and religion over here.

And by the way...Glad to hear a voice of Reason! Welcome back...And may this year be the year the neoCONS are ousted!

Karen...open your email.

Bush Urges Congress to Save Tax Cuts
AP - 2 hours, 49 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Boasting that the economy is strong and growing, President Bush urged Congress on Saturday to save tax cuts from expiring and adopt the first spending restraints in nearly a decade on such benefit programs as Medicaid, Medicare and student loans. In his weekly radio address, Bush said the federal budget faces the challenge of long-term deficits driven by mandatory spending on those entitlement programs.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/bush_administration

Sparrow,

You have to put yourself in perspective with what your country has been doing lately abroad : "instoring democracy", and the damaged image we have of US.
This looks aimless.

How do you want us foreigners, with solid democracies and all the respect paid to it, because of the millions, of people who died for it, to believe in that kind of "show"????

I'm sorry, but it just looks goofy. I never heard of any exorcism against Hitler. I only heard about Resistance , ...even if we only were 2% of the population and died for it.

That's what I call serious.

Rich: White House outrage over wiretap story is 'smokescreen'

RAW STORY

The White House outrage over the New York Times breaking the NSA wiretapping story is a "smokescreen," Frank Rich writes in his Sunday Times column, RAW STORY has learned.

For one, an episode of a cable television mini-series featured a terrorist worrying about NSA taps almost two weeks before the original Times story was published on December 16, Rich argues. The columnist also wonders if the Bush Administration tapped journalists and political opponents.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Rich_White_House_outrage_over_wiretap_0107.html

Andree,

Good point. Resistance is serious business. But I personally will not worry about what someone else is doing as long as they're speaking out.

I think every little bit helps.

Sparrow,

I may look dumb.

What is an exorcism doing in the middle of politics?

That's the way you get to be shown as "crazy Americans" to the rest of the world, except you only think domestically, which is a big mistake because we have lots of informations about you , when you have none about us.

This might just come out in a comic show, and if I'll be in the utter minority to know about it, while the majority will just laugh at you.

You have no idea of how may documentaries and programs we have on US and King George, except that our media do say what yours don't even want to hint at.

For the time being, everybody, even the aristocratic intelligentia is lauding George Clooney. He is the center of many debates.

OMG...I made the HUFFPO!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-cobble/radionation-debut-at-out_b_13419.html

Not half bad for a 6-pound Pomeranian, babe...

;0)

think globally act doggedly,
Otter

Posted by: Andrée - France at January 7, 2006 06:54 PM

Naw...you're not dumb.

Politics and religion don't mix. But could an exorcism be an example of that? Especially, the irony of the fundies being exorcised...

Still...it definitely isn't serious as far as protests go and people may laugh, but what if it makes the difference to some people? Then would it be worth it?

Fellow Republican Says GOP Rep. Bob Ney Likely To Be Indicted In Abramoff Scandal...

Gannett News Service | January 7, 2006 at 05:17 PM
READ MORE: Jack Abramoff

WASHINGTON -- Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, is likely to be indicted in an ongoing public corruption scandal, according to a fellow Republican congressman, Jim McCrery of Louisiana.

Ney has been linked by prosecutors to Jack Abramoff, a former lobbyist who pleaded guilty to charges this week that include mail fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy to bribe public officials. He also is linked to Abramoff's associate, Michael Scanlon, who pleaded guilty in November to conspiring to bribe a member of Congress and other public officials.

http://tinyurl.com/c2gd8

Andree -

I completely agree with you.

I suspect no one's taken the unintelligent little Cretin (Bu$h) to task for five years because he just has no smarts, and no one is looking at the people behind the scenes keeping him in power.

IF or when the entire nation takes The Cretin to task for the evil figurehead he is as the front man for war and torture (behind PNAC aims to rule the world), as well as take to task the people keeping him in power, only then can organized resistance take place that will motivate our Congress to impeach the evil Bush regime that has so disgraced this nation.

For five years people (media especially, but also politicians) have been indulging Bush as though he's a spoiled brat, and no one has taken him seriuosly because he does not display any personality traits different from a spoiled child who can't even speak correctly. All that, in spite of his LIES and his attack of an innocent nation which constitutes an illegal, unjust, immoral, and unethical war to control the oil in Iraq, and his approving prisoner camps and approving torture... and the list of horrors all goes on and on and people still don't take The Cretin (or his handlers) seriously because they seem to think he's only acting like a naughty little boy.

News Flash: Bush is over 18, and a legal adult. He can NOT plead that he didn't know what he was doing (it was Reagan who had Alzheimer's while still in office, and Bush 41 likley ran the whole Iran-Contra scheme while Reagan was out of the loop and the front person who could tell a good joke but never directly answer reporter's questions). The Cretin said early on 'this whole thing would be easier if this were a dictatorship and he were the dictator' (to paraphrase him). He can be held accountable for his crimes if people just stop excusing him and treating him like he's a spoiled child who's been indulged too long.

To accomplish getting The Cretin and his administration out of office, it's going to take practical hard work, starting with getting Lamestream Media attention to focus on the LIES and high crimes and misdemeanors of the whole Bu$hCo administration, and the attention of our senators and representatives who can vote to impeach the criminals.

From Jon Carroll's most recent finestkind column in the equally finestkind San Francisco Chronicle (which see at http://www.sfgate.com ):

-----

First off, I have assumed for at least 30 years that the government has been engaged in illegal wiretaps. I assume that the government reads any e-mail it wants to. I assume that the government breaks into people's homes and goes through their underwear drawers. It's the government; that's what governments do. I mean of course it's a scandal yadda yadda, but is it surprising? I think not.

So what I can't get is the Bush administration's hysterical reaction to the revelations. A presidential spokesman named Trent Duffy said, "The fact that al Qaeda's playbook is not printed on Page One, and when America's is, it has serious ramifications."

(Al Qaeda's playbook? Does it sometimes seem to you that the government is being run by retired athletic directors?)

But seriously, can you envision a terrorist picking up the New York Times and saying, "My God, men, the government may have been listening in to our telephone calls. Quick, let's find another way to communicate." I think probably they've figured that part out by now. I think the idea that the New York Times somehow leaked super-duper secrets to the enemy is ludicrous.

And if illegal wiretaps are Page One of the U.S. playbook, the United States is in big trouble. What's on Page 2 -- following suspicious people and taking pictures of them? Hanging around mosques asking people if they want to buy Stinger missiles?

[snip]

Full column here: http://tinyurl.com/dsa6q

-----

a man's speech must exceed his gasp else what's a metaphor,
Otter

NonnyO,

The media already knows. They just follow the money though...and sadly, the Replican (neoCON) owners prefer to keep the train of lies going.

The train keeps a-rollin' all night long
All night long

lullalies of bushway,
Otter

Hello Everybody--

I saw something today that pissed me off to the point of action.

Our small theater here in Poulsbo, WA. is refusing to run the film Brokeback Mountain. The conservative people here locally have decided that we don't need to see a movie with gay themes, they are censoring the film from us. It is censorship, too--you know how far we have to go to see a movie around here if we can't see it locally.

Time to take a stand--please call this number to the corporate offices of Regal Cinemas and let them know that Regal Cinemas should show this film in Poulsbo, WA...it's a 1-800 number, so you can do it from anywhere in the country.

The number is 1-800-828-2828, then press 1, then 2, then 2...pause between each number you press, they have some thing implemented into their system to resist "spamming" the voicemail. Say what you will--let them know where you are from and let your feelings be known.

Thanks everyone--and please pass this on. You know the drill--take a couple of seconds and we can change the world. You know it's true!
Happy New Year, let's keep fighting the good fight!

The media already knows.
Posted by: sparrow at January 7, 2006 07:40 PM

I know they know. But media refuses to do anything about it. That's why concrete steps (NOT prayer or exorcisms) must be taken to get the attention of media.

I just wrote a local TV station yesterday about the fact that Gil Gutknecht (R-MN) was on the list of recipients of Abramoff money (only $250, but still, he's on the list). I also suggested they do a story from a MN angle on mercenaries since two men from MN who were mercenaries have been killed in Iraq.

I wrote those suggestions in response to their non-committal answer about my comment on their new TV studio which has a window behind the news anchors and Thurs. night when they were talking about the deaths of the miners there were all these people doing monkey antics over the shoulders of the anchors (which totally negates paying attention to serious news), and suggested they put up curtains while reporting serious news but put the weather and sports guys in front of the window.

The person writing had thanked me for watching their station, but I wrote back, sorry, but it was a fluke I caught their show after watching CSI. I additionally told them they lose me as a viewer by the first commercial anyway because I only tune in for weather forecasts and I start channel surfing with the first commercial (or before if it's the same story about the jocks being brought up on charges for having sex in public on a boat - boring story, but those same jocks making millions of dollars yearly expect taxpayers to fund their playground stadiums - and more than one team wants corporate welfare to pay for their stadiums). I let it be known that I do not watch national or international news because I've seen no evidence in news teasers that anyone is reporting on the lies, high crimes and misdemeanors of The Cretin and his administration, nor is anyone talking about impeachment....

Point being, if they want me to hear anything they have to say, I have to hear about it in the first five minutes (and it has to be about The Cretin's crimes). The rest is all fluff and stuff and not important enough for me to sit through commercials to see....

President Bush does as he pleases because nobody stands up, says ENOUGH and offers an Alternative. Its that simple.

For all the millions spent on political consulting democrats have nothing to show for National strategy or policy...none. In this absence of leadership people settle for whoever occupies the office, in this case President Bush.

Andree isnt alone, I have talked to people like andree all over the world, asking why America allows the nonsense occupying our government to continue. I dont have an answer...maybe someone reeading this can tell me why democratic leadrship cannot find the resolve and courage to right the wrongs so plainly indentified.

Each representative must swear an Oath to the Constitution....to preserve, protect and uphold it. So where is the Preservation...the protections....the effort to uphold our founding documents? THAT is their job, first and foremost.
everything else is secondary.
And please dont post democrats are a minority and thus spared the call to action. Entire governments have changed because One person dared to act.

Leadership does not ask why something should be done, it demands why something isnt being done.

Read this...infiltrating the blogs of those who are not the choir.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/7/162712/1428

NonnyO,

What I'd love to see you do...and maybe this is far fetched, but take your video camera out and start talking to people about things--specifically about what they've learned from the local media. Then share with them the information you gather.

But the kicker is to send this same video to the stations...not for them to show on the air...but to show them that YOU are showing others how they lie and cover up.

Seeing is believing...right?

osted by: Toolmaker at January 7, 2006 08:22 PM

The only thing I object to in the whole "Democrats don't..." thing is that it's NOT all democrats. I think it's time we reward those who are speaking out--Like Conyers, Boxer, Kerry, Murtha, etc and stop lumping them in with the rest. They are in the hall of fame.

Leiberman would be in the hall of shame and Hillary Clinton is very quickly moving in that direction as well.

But I think it's also important to recognize that these people represent the values of those people in their own states and we need to not slam those who don't vote 'with us' when they are working for their own states.

Any guesses on who the new Republican leader will be now that Tom Delay stepped down about an hour ago?

Just back from our Town Hall Forum in Northbrook, IL (ok, with a short stop for dinner and a badly needed glass or two of wine)... So much to tell, but I need to collect my thoughts & notes so that I can give you all a meaningful summary of the highlights. In the meantime, here are some quick points:

- We completely filled the room with over 200 people and had an overflow adjacent room (where we ran a live video feed) that had well over 175 people in it...hot & standing room only. We also turned away well over 100 people whom we just could not accommodate.

- In the true spirit of a town hall meeting, our entire program was based on responding to questions from the audience. We also set the ground rules that we would only discuss how to move forward in Iraq, not how we got into this mess. (As our esteemed moderator, Mr. Aaron Freeman said, "We'll leave that for the impeachment committee...")

- Aaron Freeman was our fantastic moderator (http://www.afreeman.com/ & http://www.nss.org/about/bios/freeman.html ) who handled the audience questions and panelists' answers with such finesse and humor as well as insightful commentary about how we move forward in Iraq.

- Our panelists were top-of-the-line people of integrity & brilliance. Many, many thanks to Gen. Robert Gard, Dr. David Cortright, and Dr. Ron Miller. True gentlemen, all. I can only hope that my notes will do justice to the thoughtful comments they had.

We all hope that the outcome of these national town hall meetings is a service that garners more support to end this senseless war and to help learn about/discuss a strategy to leave Iraq in a moral & honorable way. Another key successful outcome is how we're connecting the dots...within our own community to network groups who can collectively work for common causes. But we cannot forget that town hall meetings such as ours in Northbrook brought together three high-level gentlemen who had never met but who can now work together with their collective networks to support us and our cause.

And Ellen, if you're out there, you are the best.

sparrow- more slams on Hillary, huh?
I don't object when you slam JOe Lieberman, because he's given aid and comfort to the other party for years and years now.
But to criticize a Democrat BECAUSE they're a centrist and not a liberal really gets me P.O'ed.
This party does not belong to liberals only.
And if it does, it will fail, and fail, and fail and fail.
Centrists are not people with no values. They're not wishy washy. And they don't belong in any democratic party Hall of shame. I will tell you that I am a centrist and there are a lot of issues that I am not wishy washy at all about. I believe in the Death penalty, I believe that Americans should have a right to own guns, though I also feel that guns should be registered. I don't believe they should own assault weapons, ever, registered or not. I believe that abortion should be legal, but that after about the 6th month, there should be a damned good reason for it or it shouldn't be allowed. I believe that some wars are necessary, but not the one in Iraq. I believe in the constitution, civil rights, and I'm a member of the ACLU, even though I disagree with their view on the death penalty. I believe in taking care of those who are really in need, but I also believe that there are some people who take advantage of the welfare system. And almost every single poll taken about any of those issues tells me that most of the American people think just like I do.
Hillary Clinton, with the exception of having not come out in total opposition to the war, and very few of our party leaders have, believes all the things that the majority of Americans do, and guess what, she's no more wishy washy about those things than I am.
She is NOT a liberal. Explain to me why she should be ashamed to vote in the Senate the way she believes? And why it's shameful to believe the exact way that the majority of Americans do?

Liberals have always felt they have a moral superiority to the "general Populace." The "general populace" has always felt that liberals are naive, pompous, and arrogant.
And it's why America hasn't elected a truly "liberal" president since FDR.
I'm going to continue to defend Hillary Clinton every time someone slams her on here, until someone is honest with me about why they don't like her. And it comes down to fear that she may be our party's nominee in 2008. I'm afraid of that too, but she does not deserve the criticism that she's gotten on this blog over the last few weeks. She's doing her job, the people of New York seem happy with her, so, as you said, she's representing the voters of her state well. So, why mention her by name?????

madame:

Better make that link http://www.afreeman.com/ -- if one is going to put a URL in between parentheses, one must be careful to leave a space after it so that the closing parens doesn't get picked up as part of the URL, hence leading to a 404 Not Found error page rather than the desired website...

Sounds like you guys had a helluvan event today. I look forwrd to reading the full skinny when you get the time to post about it in more detail.

if he only had a brain,
Otter

Posted by: Otter at January 7, 2006 09:18 PM
Sorry. It's late and I've been in high gear since 6am. And I wouldn't know what to do with a brain if I had one...

no, no, madame, not you, him -- the chimpanderer in thief. If *he* only had a brain...

hey hey ho ho baby bush has got to go,
Otter

Kinda on topic, in that it talks about religious extremists: Incredibly hard-hitting editorial by the Washington Post, comparing Pat Robertson to Iran's President Ahmadinejad.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/06/AR2006010601603.html

I agree with it completely, except that I think Pat Robertson is not only pathetic, but dangerous too.

Madame DeFarge: Sounds like a great meeting! Democracy and education in action!

Linda Enterkin
It's the same kind of story around here (Seattle) with Senator Patty Murray and I'm not buying it. (She is being dissed for something or other). We're lucky to have women Senators and they work hard. It's not a perfect world.

I'm reading the comments about religion.

It's partly street theater - it could be about religion or about something else. The media ignores us & sometimes there are reasons for symbolic actions.

What we did today in Seattle was mostly symbolic too but that doesn't mean it was meaningless.

It's like saying art can't be used in the service of politics.

I understand about separation of church and state - but we don't have it, even if it's in our Constitution.

I thought that was the point.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 7, 2006 09:16 PM

Linda,

It's ok to defend her. I will answer your question as you requested but keep in mind that I myself consider myself to be a moderate as well. But there are a couple things she did that really tick me off:

1. She voted for the omnibus bill last year--all 1500 pages--without reading it. Anybody who does that gets the hall of shame award.

2. I don't like her stance on the Iraq occupation.

3. I believe she voted FOR the bankruptcy bill.

Those are my issues--my priorities--and for that she needs to EARN my vote back.

I have a right to my opinion too.

Linda,

Additionally, I've mentioned Debbie Stabenaw by name; she also voted for the bankruptcy bill. However, her other votes have leaned more in the direction I prefer. Will I help her re-election campaign? Undecided. That bankruptcy vote is a doozy for me. Especially since I've passed at least 3 homeless, out of work beggers each time I head to the city.

I've also mentioned Joe Schwartz.

DiAnne- I agree on the woman Senator issue. We need far more of them than we have.
I've heard nothing but good about Patty Murray-but women do take much more flak than men for some reason, even if they vote exactly the same as a male senator would.
And they take a lot of the flak from women, who sometimes won't vote for another woman for office.
It's a real shame to not be treated equally when we're by far so superior, isn't it? :-)

I need a nap. Madame forgot to mention that she did a remarkable hookup so we could extend our audience and that she did me a huge favor by driving the panel to the airport and also that our Chicago CBS affiliate was there as well as our local paper. All our press releases sunk in somewhere. I felt like I was sending them into a huge black hole last week. I also hear we made some pretty good dough by passing the hat. A couple of pics will be on my site in a few. Thanks DCP for partnering with Tenth Dems and NSPI on this one!

Posted by: Ellen Beth at January 7, 2006 09:45 PM

I just remembered about CBS coming and was looking at their online site for some news about our event...nothing yet. Sigh, guess I'll have to break my moratorium on watching MSM news and see what they say about us tonight. And...gulp...read the Chicago Trib. tomorrow. The things we do for democracy...

Also, our friends at AfterDowningStreet.org posted our comments about our event at
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/6519

“During my time in Congress, I have always acted in an ethical manner within the rules of our body and the laws of our land...”

- Tom Delay aka "Not A Good Actor"

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 7, 2006 09:36 PM

Linda,

I also give Hillary her due as well. She was wonderful on the corporate media last year and I felt she was one of the few articulate Democrats out there last year.

I also like how she travels to get other Democrats elected. I think she has a lot of courage, intellegence, and compassion.

I've also been on other blogs defending her, usually about other side issues related to Bill Clinton.

I agree with you that the women do have a harder time--even given the same votes as men. But with regards to how I view people, I look at how my own issues and priorities jive with theirs. And yes, the people in NY do seem to approve of her and that needs to count the most.

Sparrow: This is from debt slavery.org: "The greatest hypocrisy on this bill may come from the Democrats, who often speak as if they are the party of working people. Some Democratic senators spoke against the bill and then voted for it. One of them, Senator Joe Lieberman, spoke for it and against it, voted for cloture (cutting off debate and moving the bill toward passage) and then voted against the bill. Another, Senator Hillary Clinton, did not vote for or against the bill. Nineteen Democratic Senators voted for the bill, while 24 voted against it. These are the 19 who chose to side with the credit card companies:

Sen. Joe Biden (D-Delaware)
Sen. Tom Carper (D-Delaware)
Sen. Ben Nelson (D-Nebraska)
Sen. Tim Johnson (D-South Dakota)
Sen. Max Baucus (D-Montana)
Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Indiana)
Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Sen. Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Sen. Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Sen. Dan Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Sen. Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wisconsin)
Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-Louisiana)
Sen. Blanche Lincoln (D-Arkansas)
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Florida)
Sen. Mark Pryor (D-Arkansas)
Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nevada)
Sen. Ken Salazar (D-Colorado)
Sen Debbie Stabinaw (D-Michigan

These are the 19 Democrats who voted for the bankruptcy bill, and 24 voted against it. Hillary's name is not among those who voted for it. Evidently, she was not there or she abstained.I'd like to point out that one man who is often praised to the heavens on here- Robert Byrd, voted for the bill too.
So, why is Hillary the democrat that you blame for it's passage?

Ellen and MD,

You'd best watch out, or we'll have to hire you to run all the candidates events this year.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 7, 2006 09:55 PM

My mistake there Linda. Thanks for pointing that out.

Certainly she wasn't there for whatever reason. And as I posted in a prior post that Debbie Stabenaw who is my Senator did. I also pointed out that I may not work for her campaign as a result. I will have to look into my heart and decide if that vote is the one that broke my straw.

However, I'd also like to point out that I listed more than one issue on my list of greivences.

I'd also like to point out that I haven't praised Robert Byrd either.

True...I see Harry Reid on that list, but Harry Reid also navigated the shutting down of the Senate to get the Republican majority to present their pre-war intellegence.

I've never actively voiced any approval or disapproval of any of those other candidates, except Leiberman.

YET, I have indeed been HERE on this blog and DEFENDED Hillary for her comments regarding abortion.

Going to bed now folks. Have a good night. And MD and Ellen, if you lived close to me, I'd go show up on your doorstep with a bottle of champaign and some dark chocolate to help you celebrate your wonderful town hall today.

This is from James (moving to Canada) - he tells me these states have anti-aetheist laws. My son says that is "clearly unConstutitional" & it does not bode well for "separation of church and state".

American states with anti-atheist laws

(thing) by achtung man (1.2 y) (print)   ?   2 C!s Tue Nov 20 2001 at 21:24:28
7.

There's seven of them.

Arkansas1, Maryland2, North Carolina3, Pennsylvania4, South Carolina5, Tennessee6 and Texas7. They all have different clauses in their respective constitutions which say that people who don't believe in God (or, alternatively, A Supreme Being) can't hold public offices.

1.

That's how many who actually try to enforce those laws.

In 1993, Herb Silverman, professor of math at the College of Charleston, tried to apply as notary public. In the pre-printed application there was an oath he had to sign, which ended with "so help me God". He crossed out the "God". His application was thus turned down.

Herb contacted the ACLU. They filed a lawsuit against the state of South Carolina. It took 4 whole years, but in 1997 the state Supreme Court ruled that the law was unconstitutional as it violated both the first and the sixth amendment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Article 19, Section 1: "No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court".

2 Declaration of Rights, Art. 36: "...nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God..."
Declaration of Rights, Art. 37: "That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution. "

3 Article 6, Section 8: "The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God. "

4 Article 1, Section 4: "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."

5 Article 6, Section 4: "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

6 Article 9, Section 2: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this State. "

7 Article 1, Section 4: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."
Article 4, Section 2: "No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being...."
Article 6, Section 2: "No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."

Linda E
I make it a policy to try not to diss Dems on the internet. Rove hires little slaves to take screenshots, for next time's campaign ideas.
He got alot against Kerry from the Dean playbook.
I watched it happen.

My antiwar work sometimes comes into conflict with my Democrat work but I'm a pragmatic as well as an idealist. It's possible to sort of work on different levels for different purposes at different times and not feel in conflict about it. I have learned this after a few decades of doing this!

Also, some of those who hold such tight standards for political correctness aren't even Democrats in the first place but Socialists and Greens and I can prove that. But you know that. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, because I don't think it is, but it's a fact.

sparrow- I know you've defended Hillary Clinton before, and I wasn't sure about the bankruptcy thing until I looked it up. I was pretty sure though. Here's a link to her statement on the bankruptcy bill. As you can see, she opposed it because of the failure of the Republicans to agree to an amendment concerning medical bills, but in the end, she abstained on the vote. For what it's worth, I'd have trouble working for any candidate who had voted in favor of this bill too.

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=83588&keyword=&phrase=&contain=

Re Hillary, she will be fundraising money for Senator Maria Cantwell at the end of the month, so I'm glad to have her in the state - it's somewhat separate from how I feel about all of her views or what kind of natonal candidate she'd make - things I'm not presently all that focussed on.

I have gotten called a moderate because of this and it's kind of a misnomer, because it depends on the issue, the time, the place, the context. I am not very interested in being "pegged" and would not even be able to label myself. I think "liberal" would be more accurate than "progressive" because I see too much knee-jerk reaction in some of that sector.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 7, 2006 10:14 PM

Cool Linda, Well, I can take her off my s**t list then! (wink) And thank you for posting that link. I really don't mind it if I'm incorrect about something being given the link to facts. And the medical explanation is exactly why I hold a grudge the size of the state of Texas about the bankruptcy bill!

So, I'm glad to know that she didn't vote for it and that she spoke against it.

sparrow- Hope I'm not being too obnoxious here, but she also voted against the omnibus deficit reduction act last year. Here's the senate voting link on that:

http://tinyurl.com/cdww4
(moderator edited long link to tinyurl.)

sparrow- I'm learning a lot myself tonight by looking up all these links. I didn't have a clue about the omnibus spending bill.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 7, 2006 10:23 PM

No...you're not being obnoxios. Actually, I can't figure that out Linda, because I remember many of us were blogging about it AS we watched it. I remember distinctly her voting FOR it!!!

Maybe she changed her vote later and I missed it. That's really wierd because I remember we were up late in the middle of the night watching it. We could probably even find the thread here at the DCP about the vote. And also, people were in the irc chatting too.

Hmmmm...the only thing I can think of is she voted for it before she voted against it.

Somebody just shoot me now!!!

November 3, 2005, 05:51 PM

Linda, that can not be the same vote! Look at the time stamp! 5:51PM! THIS vote that I'm talking about happened in the middle of the night.

Linda...

AND I believe the vote was in December right before the end of the 109th congress. That is not the same vote I'm talking about.

Sparrow, there are a few additional folks that need to be mentioned and maybe hired. Tenth Dems Chair Lauren Beth Gash, Tenth Dems events coordinator, Ross Nickow without whom nothing gets done, event button coordinator Dottie Palumbo and our David Borris who many of you got to meet in DC this past September. But we won't give any of them up without a fight.

oh, and chocolate always works with MD and EBG!

Posted by: Ellen Beth at January 7, 2006 10:50 PM

I remember meeting them and they were wonderful people.

So they definitely deserve chocolate and kudos too.

Hello,

I wanted to address the issue Andree raised above, about the Christian exorcism today. It was really quite like a church service, and a sensible one too. The fact was there was another service going on when we first arrived; a Navy chaplain singing hymns and giving a press conference complaining that he was not allowed to preach his religion in the Navy anymore.

The "Christian as victim" thing ticks me off more than just about anything. The media was all over this guy, and one of his supporters told Mike (our friend who was with us) several untrue "facts." (He said "The Navy fired him. Mike said "No, they didn't." The guy said, "Well, they weren't going to rehire him.", Mike said, "The paperwork was held for three days. In the government, that's speedy.").

Anyway, the point is that there was contrast between the somewhat complaining nature of the larger event, and the quiet sweetness and clarity of the exorcism. It was not street theatre, or a protest; it was a true plea for a cleansing. I was moved. And I am not religious at all.

And fortunately or unfortunately, the media ignored it in favor of the more theatrical event nearby. So it won't be making the Leno show. I blogged it here so people would know about it, because no one will find out about it in the Times or the Post. And I thought you would want to know.

Read Ellen's write-up about our "Moving Forward in Iraq" event here and see some great photos...
http://ellenofthetenth.blogspot.com/

(And while you're there, check out some of her other threads; you won't be sorry.)

I have to say that as a Christian I'm very uncomfortable with what was done today because it does seem as if it was done as street theater really. And it is totally an abuse of that religious ceremony to be done as political theater. That it be done in private with a properly prepared heart is essential to the process and no one who has not spent the appropriate amount of time in prayer and meditation prior to the event should be anywhere near it.

That being said, please understand that the theater event described here is offensive to many Christians and I'm not sure why the DCP chose to focus on it. It's unnecessarily inflammatory and divisive and provides more material for wingers to call us moonbats.

Our focus should be on vote reform and local involvement and on encouraging our reps in Congress to focus on moving our troops out of Iraq. We need to be the change there and to focus on those items.

Posted by: dwahzon at January 8, 2006 12:20 AM

Amen.

I don't get it. Now that there are ministers actively protesting against Bush in a way that is most personal and spiritual to them, we are worried about being called moonbats? I would like to know which branch of Christianity is the most politically correct to be protesting Bush? Ever since the last election, the anti-Bush crowd was characterized as lacking "faith", and now that a group of ministers decides to protest (no matter how large or small), the DCP is considered disingenuous for giving them some publicity. If some are personally offended by the ministers protest/street theater/ceremony, there is no gettng around that. But, we can't have it both ways. We can't ask for the religious community to support us and then criticize them for the way that they peacefully express their disapproval of the President. We can disagree with their methods and that is different than criticizing.

I have no disagreement with the statement that the DCP should try to maintain its focus on vote reform, local involvement, and working with Congress to bring the Iraqi war to an end.

Here is a good example of religious ferocity gone amock:

Samuel Alito and the holy oil

........three Christian ministers claim to have snuck into a Senate hearing room in order to anoint the chairs that will be used for Samuel Alito's confirmation hearing next week.

"We did adequately apply oil to all the seats," the Rev. Rob Schenck tells the Journal. Schenck and his colleagues insisted that they aren't taking sides in the confirmation fight. But Schenck said that God is "interested" in "what goes on" in Alito's confirmation process.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113649645107138940-Ku05eyOWs5xFbqD33aaAarliwqo_20060112.html?mod=blogs

And here is what Salon has to say about it:

We're sure he is, and that he'll turn his infinite gaze toward the doings of Arlen Specter and Patrick Leahy just as soon as he's done torturing Ariel Sharon.

-- Tim Grieve

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/index.html

Well Albert Hoffman, father of LSD, made it to age 100. That may mean there are not so many untoward after-effects of the hippie lifestyle past!

Karen

You know what? If it was controversial & got people thinking (the event, & the coverage on the blog), then what is wrong with that?!!

Thanks for everything that you do.

I'm sure there are people that will make fun of our Backbone showing up at the media outlets, since they didn't seem to be open, I didn't see press around & I don't know how much attention will be paid to it.

But it felt like something that was a good thing to do & what was the alternative? Go to the mall and shop?!!

We just got Sebastien on the plane. He got his place in Science Po (elite political science school in France) by being one of 100 out of 2000, and for the internship, they had no idea he is only 20 & most are much older. Now that Jet Blue goes directly to NYC, I am dying to go visit & gave him Marjorie G's number.

I am going to do these. Join me if you want.

WRITE LETTER TO SEATTLE CITY COUNCIL TO APPROVE WITHDRAWAL OF THE U.S. FROM IRAQ

An important and controversial issue is whether and how the United States should withdraw from Iraq. As of mid-December at least 73 cities in the U.S. have approved a resolution requesting our troops be brought home.

Contact has been made with a City Council member, who advised that a groundswell of public comment should be generated for a compact resolution,
and that letters or emails should be sent to each Council member.

For more details, please see the INOC Web site at http://www.scn.org/ccpi/INOCexitStrategyForCityCouncil20Dec05.htm

APPEAL TO RELEASE THE CHRISTIAN PEACEMAKER TEAMS
ABDUCTED IN IRAQ

Four members of Christian Peacemaker Teams were abducted on November 26 in Baghdad, Iraq. They are not spies, nor do they work in the service of any government. They are people who have dedicated their lives to fighting against war and have clearly and publicly opposed the invasion and occupation of Iraq. They are people of faith, but they are not missionaries. They have deep respect for the Islamic faith and for the right of Iraqis to self-determination.

C.P.T. first came to Iraq in October 2002 to oppose the US invasion, and it has remained in the country throughout the occupation in solidarity with the Iraqi people. The group has been invaluable in alerting the world to many of the horrors facing Iraqis detained in US-run prisons and detention centers. C.P.T. was among the first to document the torture occurring at the Abu Ghraib prison, long before the story broke in the mainstream press. Its members have spent countless hours interviewing Iraqis about abuse and torture suffered at the hands of US forces and have disseminated this information internationally.

To read more and SIGN a letter of appeal click on: http://vcnv.org/urgent-sign-the-petition-to-call-for-the-release-of-4-cpt-member

I'm the United Methodist pastor who organized and led the "ritual of social exorcism" (which by the way was researched extensively, not street theatre, not like a horror movie, and not an act of protest) in Lafayette Park. Like many of you I have tried many different things to challenge the bush regime. This is just one other way i decided to respond that was for me at least, powerfully significant. I am greatful for its coverage here. George Bush and Dick Cheney claim to be members of my denomination, even though their policies and actions are in complete contradiction to our baptismal vows. I have worked through my church calling them to repent, I have stood by people of other faiths and of no faith in protesting this despicable policy of war without end. A couple of months ago, knowing I'd be in DC to attend classes (working on a DMin) I was inspired to take time out for this service. It didn't seem as though anyone else in the progressive community (church related or not) wanted to take part. I admit the idea of an exorcism does sound loony. That's why this ritual was carefully crafted. I could have used a different term i suppose, but I think it was appropriate. I learned in my research that William Stringfellow participated in a similar ritual during the Nixon years - and just look how that turned out!

Thanks again for attending and covering the service.

Eric

BREAKING NEWS U.S. military Black Hawk helicopter crashes in Iraq. All 12 on board killed, officials say.

I did not say that I was unhappy that the pastors joined together to call on George Bush to leave the White House. But rather that the specific religious ceremony of exorcism appears to have been done as street theater which is wrong. According to Mr. Spelvin that was not his intent but then it should not have been publicized as it is not a public ritual. Only Christians of deep spiritual growth and faith who had spent time in prayer and meditation prior to it should have been present. That is why it will be considered offensive.

And last but not least, Andree does have a point about separation of church and state.

Thank you, Eric, for weighing in here. I learned a few new things yesterday. And I was deeply moved by the simplicity and humbleness of the service.

To everyone else here: When I report on an event, I really try to write about it as if you were standing next to me. It is my goal to describe both the facts of it as well as the tone.

What I ask from each of you is that you read what I write as if you could be there too. Both Dick and I were careful to describe the event as decidedly NOT circus-like, but serious and focused and quiet. I weighed in later with more clarification of the tone and context for the event.

It is deeply disturbing to be so misunderstood. If people here do not want to be closely informed of the events in Washington in order to follow the forces at play, please don't read my posts. I went to this event because I had spoken with Eric and I knew the media would not be covering it and I thought it was a little different take and you would want to know that this type of approach was happening.

Over the next few weeks there are probably 30-40 protests, vigils, meetings, marches, and other events. Each of you will be able to question the wisdom of each event, and argue with the details of it, or the backgrounds of those involved, and you will surely be able to question my choice to work with and/or cover the event.

If you would rather spend your energy doing that, fine. But I would HOPE that you would see the full range of the actions people are taking as a symbol of how deeply people care, and how upset they are at what is happening. This is, suddenly, a much more serious and massive movement than I have seen here before.

At the same time, fewer and fewer people are coming out to support and help, so the planning and coordination is falling into the hands of fewer people.

When someone comes along, as Eric did, and as the Christian Peacemakers have done, and simply sets up an event, that is not only news for the DCP to share with others, it is information about what everyday people feel is important.

There aren't, in my opinion, NEARLY enough of these small, serious, potent moments of truth-telling.

As you sit there and read what I write about those moments, and the larger, sometimes cumbersome planning and coordination process, I will ask that, instead of judging the wisdom of those who feel so moved and concerned to do a particular event in a particular way, that you give me the courtesy of reading my feeble attempts to describe what is happening here in George Bush's back yard. Please take note of it, and, if you feel inspired to do something similar yourself, do it.

Or better yet, join the people who are streaming into this city this month, and participate in sending the messages to the msm and Bush Administration with us.

On the focus on voting issues and media reform: yes, that is what we began with as targets. The problem is much bigger. We cannot get to voting reform or media reform until we solve the larger problem of a government run amok.

I live here, I see it every single day, and it breaks my heart. All I can do is tell you about it, and help those who are trying to do something about it, each in their own way.

dwahzon,

It was done by Christians who had obviously prepared. Look at the photo. It was not publicized, although the media would have been all over it had they sent out a press release and had a press release at the event. The other event was well-attended by the media, and when Dick went over and told them what was happening nearby, they asked for a release. Without paper, they weren't interested in covering it.

Eric and the others did not do this as a media event. Please understand what I am saying here. We covered it as an event we thought people would want to know about, because it was done so quietly and deeply, and that is a little different from what usually happens in this town.

Karen and Dick,

I deeply appreciate all that you do and the way that you do keep us involved by your reports for those of us who do not live in the DC area.

A religious gathering focused on prayer about what is occurring within the White House is most definitely appropriate.

Thanks, dw.

Karen and Dick,

Thank you so much for keeping us tuned in to the efforts and events taking place in DC toward helping our cause - bringing democracy back to our country. I thought the Methodist Peace Makers event was interesting, and who are we to say that it won't have some effect? I appreciate knowing about it. I for one didn't attend an event yesterday because there wasn't one in my area, (and I didn't put one together) so I enjoyed reading about ALL of the events reported on here yesterday.

It is clear by the tone of this thread that even among people that hold very similar beliefs, that there can be widely differing opinions. When we do find ourselves on "different sides of the fence"...it does NOT mean we are stupid...or ON DRUGS.

Also...to blindly follow one party or another, or one belief (liberal, progressive, conservitive, ect...) seems a bit niave in the face of the facts.

Karen and Dick...keep on reporting from DC...I will continue to tune in, and make MY OWN DECICIONS on the validity of the event/report.

PS: Please dont blame the messenger!

Via ABCNews.com (notice the poll numbers and the timing):

-----

GOP WOES DON'T END WITH DELAY
DeLay's Decision Won't Sweep Away Republicans' Election-Year Troubles

Analysis by Jennifer Loven, The Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Republicans worried about their party's future have succeeded in pushing embattled former Majority Leader Tom DeLay off the stage. Even so, the Republicans' election-year troubles are far from over.

Need a reminder?

President Bush, the titular head of the GOP, is waging an unpopular war in Iraq and presiding over a nation with lingering economic anxieties. He suffers from approval ratings around 40 percent near record lows for his presidency. Questionable stock transactions by the top Republican in the Senate, Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee, are under investigation. A special prosecutor's probe continues into whether Bush administration officials outed a CIA operative in retribution for her husband's Iraq war criticism. A secret anti-terror program that Bush approved to eavesdrop on people inside the United States without warrants is raising concerns about overly broad presidential powers.

Potentially most damaging is an influence-peddling scandal on Capitol Hill.

[snip]

Ross Baker, a political science professor at Rutgers University, called it a "partywide crisis" that the GOP has problems with its leadership in all three areas of the federal government that it controls.

"The removal of DeLay from the leadership doesn't end their problems with scandal and, more broadly, with running the House," said Norm Ornstein with the conservative American Enterprise Institute. "That's their challenge, is to begin to get their policy act together. And they're going to have to do it with just Republicans because Democrats are going to be against them."

Republican domination of Congress is at stake in the November elections. Indeed, a new Associated Press-Ipsos poll found that 49 percent of those surveyed said they would prefer to see Democrats take control of Congress, compared with 36 percent who want a continued Republican majority.

[snip]

Democrats have made clear they plan to make GOP corruption a centerpiece campaign theme. They pounced.

"Tom DeLay bears much of the responsibility for the culture of corruption Republicans have created in Washington, D.C., but his removal from House leadership alone will not end the pervasive cronyism and corruption that he and Washington Republicans created," said Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada.

The anti-corruption tack gives Democrats the opportunity to overcome bad fractures within their party as well as their lack of a cohesive message. An AP-Ipsos poll last month showed that 88 percent of Americans say that corruption reaching into all levels of government is a serious problem.

[snip]

But I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, is expected to stand trial in the CIA leak case this summer, just ahead of the midterm elections. The special prosecutor's inquiry continues, leaving the fate of other senior White House officials, notably Bush's deputy chief of staff and political guru Karl Rove, in doubt.

And the election for a new House majority leader will serve as a reminder of the GOP's troubles right when Bush is unveiling his election-year agenda. The House reconvenes the week of Jan. 30, with the election likely to be held right away. Bush's annual State of the Union address is tentatively scheduled for that week.

[snip]

Full article here: http://tinyurl.com/8vlbc

-----

neuekonserdammerung,
Otter

Regarding Stamper Ranch's comment from 8:05 pm last night -- it's not just happeninbg in the great state of Washington. It's happening all over the place, and not just out west either. Here's just one other example out of the many that are out there to be cited:

-----

SALT LAKE CITY Jan 8, 2006 — A movie theater owned by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller abruptly changed its screening plans and decided not to show the film "Brokeback Mountain." The film, an R-rated Western gay romance story, was supposed to open Friday at the Megaplex at Jordan Commons in Sandy, a suburb of Salt Lake City. Instead it was pulled from the schedule.

[snip]

The movie's distributor, Focus Features, said that hours before opening, the theater management "reneged on their licensing agreement," and refused to open the film.

Gayle Ruzicka, president of the conservative Utah Eagle Forum, said not showing the film set an example for the people of Utah.

"I just think (pulling the show) tells the young people especially that maybe there is something wrong with this show," she said.

[snip]

Source article here: http://tinyurl.com/9n8pz

-----

Yeah, Goddess forbid that anybody (the young people especially) might actually be allowed to think for themselves and make their own decisions about what is right and what is wrong in Utah...

*fnord*

you'll watch what we say you can watch,
Otter

Hey, it could be worse. In Utah, they won't let folks watch movies about cowboys. But in South Dakota, they just treat women like cows. Excerpted from the http://www.mediagirl.org blogsite (which, btw, I highly recommend for your reading pleasure) is this following bit of well-justified snarkiness:

-----

"PRO-LIFE" LEGISLATOR LIKENS WOMEN TO COWS

By media girl, posted Saturday 7 Jan 2006

Just a couple of weeks ago, I wrote about how South Dakota is treating women like cows. Now that judgment has been confirmed ... by South Dakota's own "pro-life" Republican Representative Gordon Howie himself:

When Rep. Gordon Howie, R-Rapid City, mentioned
cows and women in the same breaths at the Chamber
of Commerce pre-legislative crackerbarrel last
week, it didn't sit well with some of the folks
who were there.

Because someone in front of me was chattering
during questions from the audience, I wasn't able
to catch Howie's precise quote (or what exactly
was being said on another subject by Rep. Tom
Hennies before it). But right after Howie spoke,
the firestorm started.

I checked with the Chamber to see if the session
was recorded, since I only half-heard Howie's
comment myself and wanted to make sure I'd get it
right. When I was told by the Chamber that they
hadn't taped it, I asked Howie to repeat what he
said.

"We place value on life in South Dakota, and even
with a mother cow, as soon as you can demonstrate
she is pregnant, an even higher value is placed
just because she is pregnant," Howie said.

So there you have it: a woman's value depends upon whether she's pregnant or not. A woman's purpose, according to Howie and his right-wing allies who want to criminalize abortion, is to replenish the herd.

But wait! Maybe he ended up not saying what he really meant. Maybe it was a mistake.

Howie said he "enrages" people who don't share his
views "because I just don't mince words. I don't
choose them well, either. ... Any person who really
knows who I am knows I don't place women and
livestock on the same level."

No, he says it like he means it. I'm sure he believes women are more valuable than cows. But his meaning comes through loud and clear: Women are heifers and the government is the rancher.

Moo.

-----

no moos is good news,
Otter

Looks to me (and to the good folks at Media Matters) like MSNBC's 'Hardball' host chris Matthews is playing softball with the facts,*again*...

-----

Matthews Trumpeted Comparatively Small Abramoff Client Donations To Sen. Clinton, Virtually Ignoring Larger Donations Given To Bush, Hastert

(Full story is too long and detailed to [snip] from, so read it for yourselves here: http://mediamatters.org/items/200601070003

-----

What's most intresting to read in the course of the Media Matters report is that several of the guests Matthews used in his segments, including his own correspondent David Shuster and none other than his equally opinion-driven colleague Joe Scarborough, kept trying to bring up Hastert and Bush and get Matthews back on track as to the real meat of the story here.

But for whatever reasons of his own, Matthews sure seems to have some kind of personal axe to grind when it comes to Hillary Clinton. He never misses a chance to take a swing at her, even when it's off-topic and beside the point. What's up with that, huh? Did she step on his puppy or something?

nothing like objectivity in journalism,
Otter

Karen and Dick,

I second the call asking you to continue your reports about what is happening in Washington. These events are a demonstration not only against the administration but, in and of themselves, FOR democracy and democratic ideals.

I too have been questioning why some of the discussions have taken such a confrontational tone. I believe there are several reasons. First, many are passionate about America and are anxious that our country has evolved in a relatively short period of time into a near fascist country led by a group of liars intent on furthering their own wealth. From that anxiety springs fear that there is little we can do to effect change against the power of the state.That frustration results in anger.

Secondly, being in the minority is challenging and trying to move into the majority will cause people to look at the issues in many ways and offer many different solutions. Ocassionally people will offer ideas and opinons that most times will unintentionally and, unfortunately sometimes intentionally, be personal attacks.

Third, the opposition party is evolving and we are in the middle of that evolution. We have seen the national leaders of the Democratic party-the defacto opposition pary-lose touch with their constituents. To remedy that, local Democratic candidates have not been in lock step with the national party. That creates dissonance between the central and peripheral players. That dissonance inherently is uncomfortable and likely to lead to acrimonious debate.

Certainly I am not a political scientist and these are just my personal observations. I raise this because I have seen good people who are all working towards a positive change leave this blog when we know that it is the power of ideas that is the engine for change, and I hope that the differences expressed by people can be respected.

FRANK RICH; THE WIRETAPPERS THAT COULDN'T SHOOT STRAIGHT

"...That the White House's over-the-top outrage about the Times scoop
(i.e. the wiretap expose) is a smokescreen contrived to cover up
something else is only confirmed by Dick Cheney's disingenuousness. In
last week's oration at a right-wing think tank, he defended warrant-free
wiretapping by saying it could have prevented the 9/11 attacks. Really?
Not with this administration in charge. On 9/10 the N.S.A. (lawfully)
intercepted messages in Arabic saying, "The match is about to begin,"
and, "Tomorrow is zero hour." You know the rest. Like all the chatter
our government picked up during the president's excellent brush-clearing
Crawford vacation of 2001, it was relegated to mañana; the N.S.A. didn't
rouse itself to translate those warnings until 9/12.....

Given that the reporters on the Times story, James Risen and Eric
Lichtblau, wrote that nearly a dozen current and former officials had
served as their sources, there may be more leaks to come, and not just
to The Times. Sooner or later we'll find out what the White House is
really so defensive about.

Perhaps it's the obvious: the errant spying ensnared Americans talking
to Americans, not just Americans talking to jihadists in Afghanistan. In
a raw interview transcript posted on MSNBC's Web site last week - and
quickly seized on by John Aravosis of AmericaBlog - the NBC News foreign
affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell asked Mr. Risen if he knew whether
the CNN correspondent Christiane Amanpour might have been wiretapped.
(Mr. Risen said, "I hadn't heard that.") Surely a pro like Ms. Mitchell
wasn't speculating idly. NBC News, which did not broadcast this exchange
and later edited it out of the Web transcript, said Friday it was still
pursuing the story.

If the Bush administration did indeed eavesdrop on American journalists
and political opponents (Ms. Amanpour's husband, Jamie Rubin, was a
foreign policy adviser to the Kerry campaign), it's déjà Watergate all
over again. But even now we can see that there's another, simpler - and
distinctly Bushian - motive at play here, hiding in plain sight.

That motive is not, as many liberals would have it, a simple ideological
crusade to gut the Bill of Rights. Real conservatives, after all, are
opposed to Big Brother; even the staunch Bush ally Grover Norquist has
criticized the N.S.A.'s overreaching. The highest priority for the Karl
Rove-driven presidency is instead to preserve its own power at all
costs. With this gang, political victory and the propaganda needed to
secure it always trump principles, even conservative principles, let
alone the truth. Whenever the White House most vociferously attacks the
press, you can be sure its No. 1 motive is to deflect attention from
embarrassing revelations about its incompetence and failures. .."

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/01/08/opinion/08rich.html?hp=&pagewantedprint

Regarding the thread header and the discussion about it...

We come together here from different backgrounds, different experiences in life, different beliefs. We're not always going to agree 100% with everything that is said here. I believe Dwahzon was expressing her opinion, based on her very deep beliefs & experiences, about how exorcisms should be performed. And I happen to agree with her on this -- or what I understand her point to be. I personally have no objection to the fact that this exorcism was done; that's not the point. That it was done should be enough to have its intended outcome take effect. But it's the point of it being done in public, and now being discussed in public.

So it goes. It's now out here and we must deal with it.

But this discussion touches on a deeper problem that seems permeate our country and sometimes even here on the blog lately...taking time to understand different points of view. One of the key messages I got from Dr. Ron Miller, a renown academic, author and speaker on religion who spoke at our event yesterday, was this: take time to try to feel the other side of what people feel and why they feel that way. This can hopefully help us find useful ways to talk to people everywhere -- including here on the blog -- who have differing views.

People need education on warrantless spying:

http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm

Writing in a web-only commentary piece on Newsweek's site, Eleanor Clift points out the rather astonishing political revisionism that has turned Newt Gingrich from disgraced former powerbroker to reform-driven Washington gadfly:

-----

THE UNLIKELY FACE OF REFORM
Newt Gingrich has recreated himself as Washington’s agent of change. Can he persuade the GOP to shift its agenda?

Jan. 6, 2006 - Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich is doing what he does best, tossing out oversized ideas that grab media attention. There's too much money influencing legislation, so Newt suggests banning all fundraising in the Washington metropolitan area. That will never happen, but Newt is on to something.

He understands that voters are disgusted with both parties. The polarized model of politics we have today is ready to implode with the revelations of influence peddling on a scale not seen since the days of Teapot Dome oil field scandal rocked the Harding administration more than 80 years ago. Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff pleaded guilty to two sets of federal indictments this week, and his tentacles touch almost every place within Republican circles.

Newt has recreated himself as a bipartisan reformer, running against the party he brought to power in 1994 and decrying the GOP’s corruption with the same zeal he expressed against Democrats. Next to John McCain, who embodies the reform agenda and exposed Abramoff's bilking of Indian tribes in Senate hearings, Gingrich is the face of reform in Washington.

That is an astonishing development when you consider the circumstances that led to Gingrich leaving his leadership post in the House. Ethics questions about a lucrative book deal followed by a failed coup staged by his fellow Republicans forced him out.

For Gingrich, this is personal. Among the coup-plotters was Tom DeLay. There’s been bad blood between them for years. DeLay never bought into the reform agenda. The result of his disregard for the niceties separating money and politics means that it's taken the Republicans just 10 years in power to reach the same level of corruption it took the Democrats 40 years to achieve. Now it's Newt's turn to say "I told you so."

[snip]

Full article is here: http://tinyurl.com/a89ow

-----

Newt Gingrich as the voice of conscience in Washington? Holy Kao. This from the guy who sanctimoniously sermonized about Bill Clinton's pecker peccadilloes while at the same time cheating on his wife and then telling her he wanted a divorce as she was lying on her deathbed wracked with cancer... and then brazenly turned around and did the same thing to the cheatee as soon as he'd married her in turn.

Gee whillikers. Only in Washingtoon could such a two-faced weasel-wanker so brazenly reinvent himself in such a short time. But in the fast-paced soundbite-driven world of modern politics, memories are short and old news is no news; so now Old Newt is New Newt, just like that.

Gee. Who'd'a thunk it, huh?

he was so much younger then he's bolder than that now,
Otter

OC and M
Amen :)

Excellent essay, oncall; and points well taken, m. defarge.

In one of last week's threads I noted the retirement of WashPo columnist William Raspberry from the active newspapering game, and I included some snippets from his last couple of columns as good examples of reasonable but still effective activistic & argumentative techniques.

At the time, I meant them in the context of the Us vs. Them issues that we all have to deal with out there. But now I'm going to post a few more snippets from Raspberry's excellent column on "Our Civil Disagreements" (which please do see at http://tinyurl.com/9cxhn ), because what he said also seems to apply to the Us Vs. Ourselves issues that some of us are dealing with in here, too...

-----

"But something else was happening at the same time. I was becoming more and more convinced that the sharp debates and exaggerated differences were exacerbating the political division I find so dangerous in America, and I was also starting to imagine -- conceit? -- that talking about issues might actually make a positive difference, might move us an inch or two nearer common ground.

"Perhaps it was then that I found myself trying to write in such a way that people who didn't agree with me might at least hear me. Then I found that they were talking back to me in similarly civil tones. And it felt good.

"It reminded me of something a wise divinity professor once said. If you are having an argument with some 'enemy,' he advised, try to reword his position in a way that would make it at least palatable to you. Then invite him to do the same thing with your position. You won't appreciate the dispute-melting magic in that until you try it a few times.

"The trouble, of course, is that such an approach is unlikely to produce winners and losers, and we've come to think that producing winners and losers is the essence not just of politics but also of life.

"It isn't. Making this country work for everybody is, and it would be a good thing if all of us -- journalists emphatically included -- remembered that."

-----

raspberry knows,
Otter

Some quick newsbites from today's New York Times' Washington section:

HEARINGS A TEST FOR DEMOCRATS AND ALITO
http://tinyurl.com/ajfbs

Confirmation hearings begin on Monday for Supreme Court nominee Judge Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Democrats appear lined up solidly against him.

OFFICIALS FOCUS ON A 2ND FIRM TIED TO DELAY
http://tinyurl.com/7hndn

Having secured a guilty plea from Jack Abramoff, prosecutors are focusing on a lobbying firm that may determine whether Tom DeLay will face criminal charges.

STATES INTERVENE AFTER DRUG PLAN HITS EARLY SNAGS
http://tinyurl.com/9vvby

Low-income Medicare beneficiaries were often overcharged and some were turned away in the new drug benefit's first week.

DEMOCRATS CRITICIZE APPOINTMENT AT IMMIGRATION AGENCY
http://tinyurl.com/c75k7

Julie L. Myers, picked by President Bush to head the bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, has never dealt extensively with immigration issues.

OUR PRESIDENTIAL ERA: WHO CAN CHECK THE PRESIDENT?
http://tinyurl.com/b629n

Judge Samuel A. Alito Jr.'s confirmation hearings are likely to focus on the expansion of executive power. But it's not the Supreme Court that has to curb the presidency. It's Congress.

mainstream shmainstream,
Otter

From an article originally posted by John Nichols in 'The Nation', as reposted on the CBSNews.com website:

-----

SAMUEL ALITO V. JAMES MADISON

No member of the Senate who takes seriously the oath they have sworn to defend the Constitution will vote to confirm judicial activist Samuel Alito's nomination to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court.

To a greater extent than any nominee for the high court in recent memory, and very possibly in the long history of the country, Alito has placed himself clearly and unequivocally at odds with the original intent of the authors of the Constitution and the incontrovertible language of the document.

[snip]

Full article is here: http://tinyurl.com/8eqcn

-----

how can this administration respect checks and balances when it can't even balance its checkbook,
Otter

sparrow- I think that must have been a different vote I found the link for. That one was at the beginning of '05, and you must have been talking about one at the end of '05. Sorry. But at least we agree that she didn't vote for the bankruptcy bill.
Not my president- yes, Albert Hoffman made it to 100, but according to my faith in the right Reverent Pat Robertson, I believe God will strike him dead anytime now for his sins. :-)
As for the exorcism yesterday, I have conflicting emotions about it. Along with dwahzon, I have a problem with mixing church and state, and I even have a serious problem with public prayer. I think public prayer is hypocritical in all instances, but I know that's an odd opinion to have. I only have it because Jesus said it himself. I have a lot of strange opinions that came from the red print in the Bible. But in another sense, I appreciate the effort of some religious leaders to let the world know that all Christians do not support this president, and for that, I'm grateful for the event. It is a way to give support to Christians nationwide who have been told for 5 years that they're not really following Christ if they don't follow George Bush, and those people need some support, believe me.
So, guess I'm wishy-washy again. But on the whole, I think the exorcism was a good idea.

Posted by: Otter at January 8, 2006 11:10 AM

Thanks Otter for that reminder about Raspberry. I missed it and I'm sorry I did. It sounds like what he was saying is totally in line with Dr. Miller ( http://ron-millers-world.org/ ) whose viewpoints are obviously coming from a religious perspective.

Here are some other things Dr. Miller said that seem appropriate...

- Dialogue is difficult. We use language that fits our perspective. Example, remember the story of Samson & Delilah ( http://www.virtualchurch.org/samson.htm ). One could say that Samson was the original suicide bomber. But calling the story "Samson, the Suicide Bomber" totally changes the tone of the message, resulting in a negative tone and thereby making many people tune out the true, intended message. (Obviously, this is Lakoff's message as well.)

- It's a matter of consciousness & conscience. Consciousness follows conscience. It's helpful to focus on our consciousness in how we name, how we frame. This is the preliminary step to actions on our conscience.

Two more quick hits of opinion and commentary culled from the CBSNews website:

-----

21ST CENTURY SLEAZE
http://tinyurl.com/d8fye

CBS' Dick Meyer has some rather unconventional ideas as to why people should care about the many scandals surrounding Jack Abramoff.

HASTERT DISASTER
http://tinyurl.com/exwzj

'The American Prospect' says be careful what you wish for. If President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have broken the law, they deserve to be impeached, but President J. Dennis Hastert could be worse.

------

"could be worse"? perish the thought,
Otter

And BTW- as far as using the word exorcism goes, Jesus "Cast Out" demons when he was here on the earth, and exorcism simply means to cast out.
And I do, definitely, think we have some demonic spirits in our national leadership, starting from W on down.
I don't think evil is a deep enough word to describe them; demonic works for me.

Yesterday I made mention of the passing of Hugh Thompson, a man who I called "a *real* American hero."

There's a lot more info & links to several excellent background articles on Thompson, his actions at My Lai, and the high price he had to pay for doing what he knew to be right on that horrible day at: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13215

According to Col. Tom Kolditz, head of the U.S. Military Academy's behavioral sciences and leadership department, "There are so many people today walking around alive because of him, not only in Vietnam, but people who kept their units under control under other circumstances because they had heard his story. We may never know just how many lives he saved."

And as William Eckhardt, who served as chief prosecutor for the My Lai courts-martial, noted: "When you have evil, sometimes, in the midst of it, you will have incredible, selfless good. And that's Hugh Thompson."

and that's the real meaning of 'semper fi',
Otter

(P.S. -- Lt. William Calley, the officer who ruthlessly ordered his men to shoot down a whole village's worth of unarmed civilians, was convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for his role in the killings, but served just three years under house arrest before then-President Nixon reduced his sentence.]

And this from the Office of Unintentional Irony Department:

-----

U.S. TROOPS BUILD WALL OF SAND IN IRAQ
http://tinyurl.com/ctg3n

Village Blockade: US troops construct wall of sand 6 miles long, 10 feet tall around village to trap insurgents hiding among the villagers.

and they shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand,
Otter

Linda:

No doubt Judge Alito has already written a memo pointing out that demonic possession is nine-tenths of the law.

time for daylight in the capital of good and evil,
Otter

Some choice excerpts from an opinion piece in this weekend's Pensito Review, which see in its natural habitat at http://tinyurl.com/cl99w :

-----

The Framers are spinning in their graves.

Let there no longer be any doubt. President Bush sees Congress as merely a nuisance not worth bothering about -- except when it is rubber-stamping his agenda. When it refuses to give him what he wants -- even forbids him to act -- he proceeds anyway.

[snip]

Last Friday, he signed a bill that would outlaw torture, put the pen down and openly declared that his intention to violate the law he had just signed. No one can stop him from torturing prisoners.

[snip]

If this were a normal presidency, the country would be in the midst of a Constitutional crisis right now. But President Bush faces no credible opposition in his quest for power so he does as he pleases.

The only group in the Capitol that could stop him -- the Republican leadership in Congress -- is complicit with him. George Bush is as addicted to power as he is to whiskey and coke. The GOP leaders are his enablers. They have given this reckless bungler a blank check, literally and figuratively, to run the world as he sees fit.

While the Democrats in Congress stand by helplessly, muted by the Rightwing Noise Machine and their own self-doubts, unable to get a photo-op in edgewise, normal Americans watch in horror as the imperial republic morphs into a Republican empire before our eyes.

[snip]

Mr. Bush can’t help himself. Trampling the rights of the common folk is what aristocrats do, for heaven’s sake. He is hardly the first blueblood to neutralize a legislative assembly in his march to absolute power. Hell, Julius Caesar wasn’t even the first.

But it was never supposed to happen here.

[snip]

The list of uninvestigated Bush Administration scandals is staggering: from deliberately violating FISA to mishandling Katrina, from lying about and/or bungling the evidence for war to leaking the name of a CIA spy and the subsequent cover-up, from the billions of taxpayer dollars missing in Iraq to Cheney’s Enron-designed energy plan to black prisons, prisoner rendition and torture -- and on and on.

When it comes to the Judicial Branch, Republicans demand strict interpretation of the Constitution (when it suits their aims). But when it comes to the duties of the Legislative Branch, they treat the Constitution like it is just another musty document "rendered quaint" by terrorists on 9/11.

[snip]

-----

it takes a democratic village to de-raise a president,
Otter

From our Quoted Without Comment Department:

"People who have more money should be free to buy more cars, more homes, more vacations, and more gizmos than the rest of us. They should not be able to buy more democracy."

-- Bill Moyers

It was nice to read a comment from the minister who arranged the event that is subject of this topic.

Thanks!

On another note, looks like the short term problem is Alito. Then my question has been answered (above) - the Libby trial will not really come fully into play til summer. Then we have mid-tern elections. We need to anticipate the propaganda as much as we can and thwart it.

Obviously Tom Noe didn't figure that part out in time, though:

-----

BUSH ASKED TO LIST SOURCES OF NOE, ABRAMOFF GIFTS

By James Drew And Steve Eder, The Toledo Blade

COLUMBUS - An activist group called on President Bush yesterday to disclose the sources of all campaign contributions collected by former Toledo-area coin dealer Tom Noe, lobbyist Jack Abramoff, and other Bush "Pioneers" and "Rangers" convicted, indicted, or under investigation on corruption allegations.

"The President should not fall victim to the Nixonian tendency to keep bad things secret," said Ned Wigglesworth, analyst for TheRestofUs.org, a watchdog group based in California. "He owes it to himself and the American people to disclose this information so the public can take a closer look at the Pioneers."

In October, a federal grand jury in Toledo indicted Mr. Noe on charges he laundered donations into Mr. Bush's re-election campaign. He has pleaded not guilty. State officials have accused the former Maumee coin dealer of stealing at least $4 million from the rare-coin investment he managed for the Ohio Bureau of Workers' Compensation.

Mr. Noe attained the elite status of a Bush Pioneer in 2004 by raising at least $100,000 for President Bush's re-election campaign.

Mr. Abramoff, a disgraced Washington lobbyist who also was a Pioneer, pleaded guilty this week to charges of conspiracy, fraud, and tax evasion.

[snip]

Full story is here: http://tinyurl.com/d9r5t

-----

tearing down the house that Shrubya built, one card at a time,
Otter

DiAnne:

Unfortunately, most pundits and professional political types still seem to believe that Alito will squak by into a Supreme Court judgeship. This is all the more reason why we have to prove the conventional wisdom wrong this time -- we need to call up our elected officials and our media outlets and everybody we know, and raise so much hell about this guy's unfitness for the post that the only squeak he'll get is the one escaping from his mouth when he fails to grab the nomination after all.

justice alito confirmed is justice denied,
Otter

Silly me. I should have known to look here, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson

all that is necessary for evil to fail is for good men to do something,
Otter

Otter
They need to get something really bad on him that even Republicans in Congress can't go for. I should think that being sexist and a wiretap approver would be enough, but apparently not.

For 2006, a basic "throw the bums out" mentality has to take form in the minds of America's voters. They need to realize they were scammed.

Howard Dean, who I know a lot of people on here don't like either, just trampled Wolf Blitzer's attempt to implicate Democrats in the Abramoff scandal into the ground. Blitzer was obviously beginning an MSM attempt to say both parties are equally to blame in the Abramoff affair, and Dean unflinchingly denied it and basically told Blitzer to prove it. Blitzer stuttered and said something about the Democrats "benefitting" from some Abrahoff "related" organizations. It sounded a lot like the WMD "related" programs that the Bush administration tried to foist into the American people's brains. Dean won the confrontation outright with a comeback that some Democrats took money from "some Indian tribes" but not from Jack Abramoff. He got the last word in saying that this is a Republican scandal, and he knows they're going to try and make it bi-partisan, but it isn't. Regardless of what people think of Howard Dean's mouth, sometimes it does a magnificent job of putting the media in it's place. Yea Howard, ya' done good.

Props to Howie!

Results 1 - 10 of about 2,890,000 for bush satan. (0.21 seconds)

heh heh heh heh

Linda Enterkin
Right on! I like Dean - I like all of them but not unconditionally. Depends on the day, the issue, none are perfect & we don't always know the context. People should not be so attached to their own issues.

Anyway, good for Dean! That means he's doing his job and that it's a pretty good fit (at least in this instance).

Ok, this comes so late in the thread I'll assume that no one is going to read this... but I've just got to get my $0.02 in.

Religon has always been a touchy subject around here. At least half of us are here because our faith demands that we fight for social justice, and the other half are here because our ethics are outraged at the use of religon by the right.

Let me post a thought, and hope that we all keep it in mind when the subject comes up. The right of sepration of church and state stands side by side with the right of free speech in this country. With all due respect to Andree.. I've often wondered about the French attitude towards displays of religious symbols, to not allow someone to wear a scarf or a cross would seem to deny right to express their own beliefs.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is one of those cliches that should be tossed around here at every chance. Those of us who are motivated by faith need to understand that those motivated by ethics aren't any the less motivated. Those of us who are motivated by ethics need to accept that those who work by faith are just as committed to democracy, that an expression of faith doesn't necessarily make one either a neocon or nuts.

I now return you to the regularly scheduled outrage.

Dean stands up to Wolfe:

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/2006/DeanAbramoffDemocrats.asx

Linda,

I think most people here try to stay open to all the candidates and politicians, yet try to hold them to a higher standard as well.

Personally, I liked Dean, then when I saw him at the Rainbow Push Convention, he didn't strongly advocate for the Dems or Kerry or even for election fraud...so I turned a little away from him.

But today, he did a great job of defending democrats against false charges. Now that's what I would have liked to see him do at the Rainbow Push Convention.

I think he's learning quickly though!

If the democratic party cannot offer a viable alternative it will be a wash in 2006. we may end up with split congress again.

what is our vision? what do we hope to accomplish? is it enough to gain seats because republicans stumbled?

Republicans swept into office because they had a Plan. What is our plan? Gaining seats without a goal in mind accomplishes nothing.

Posted by: Toolmaker at January 8, 2006 01:27 PM

Toolmaker,

Sometimes splits are the best thing for a democracy. It teaches restraint and compromise.

Lady Techie
You may hear from Andree but this is what I know about the law, and here from Wikipedia, but consistent with what I've been told.

The French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools bans students from wearing conspicuous religious symbols in French public (i.e. government-operated) primary and secondary schools. The law is an amendment to the French Code of Education that expands principles founded in existing French law, especially the constitutional requirement of laïcité: the separation of state and religious activities.

The bill passed France's national legislature and was signed into law by President Jacques Chirac on 15 March 2004.

The law does not mention any particular symbol., It is occasionally referred to as the French headscarf ban in the foreign press, even though this terminology is improper.

-- I just had Bill Clinton's new intern here & he said he would be shocked if a public official asked people to pray, as was done after Hurricane Katrina. Reason? All are French, but not all are Christian, and religion is a private matter.

-- I have also had visitors from several countries who wonder at our flying of the flag. In other countries, it is mostly done from state buildings and by individuals on special occasions such as Flag Day here.

Do most of the flag wavers even know what is in our Constitution and Bill of Rights and understand that they have been undermined as we have been occupied from within via two bloodless coups?!

Toolmaker

How about if we return to traditional democratic values and work for the greatest good for the greatest number of people?

How about an increase in the minimum wage, for example?

[Long post alert: but it's relevant and original, not just a C&P...]

Here's a harrowing first-person account from Lawrence Colburn, who had been Hugh Thompson's door gunner in the helicopter that he was piloting over the villages of My Lai on that fateful day in 1968. Fair warning, though; it's frank and it's honest and it might just make your blood boil even now, nearly 40 years later. I know it did mine.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/pacificnw/2002/0310/cover.html

I know that I seem to keep coming back to this particular long-ago instance in a time filled with equally-horrible instances. I've been sitting here wondering why that is. And I think I may have figured it out. And maybe it explains a lot about why and how I turned out to be the small-d democractivist that I am today.

The My Lai massacre took place in March of 1968. The knowledge of it only became public some two years later. At the time the news finally broke (and broke, and broke), I was 13 going on 14. That's an impressionable age. And I was already very aware of everything that was happening in Vietnam even then.

Even in 1970, I had a few older friends who had already volunteered to go there and/or had been drafted and sent to Vietnam. One of those friends had been killed in combat less than two weeks after he arrived in-country. I thought about that a lot in those days. I still think about it sometimes, even now.

I'm embarrassed to say now that one of the first record albums I'd asked for on my first double-digit birthday present list was Barry Sadler's "The Ballad of the Green Beret". I wasn't politically aware when that song hit the local airwaves in 1966; I don't think I even stopped to think about what the lyrics might or might not mean at the time. But it was a huge radio hit and it had a stirring beat and I thought it was cool.

Only later did I realize just how uncool the message of that song really was. Oh, not uncool in terms of semper fi and being brave in the face of danger and passing down the torch to the next generation and all that -- these are honorable things, even righteous things, *if* that is they are not misplaced and misled. But they were in those days, not from the ground up but from the top down. And so it didn’t take me long to learn that, and to recognize that the greater message of that particular song being on the radio was *not* cool, not cool at all.

And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when it leads to a lot of knowledge. So by the time the news of the My Lai massacre and the inevitable atrocities of which it was only the tip of the iceberg finally broke through to the mainstream news at the tail end of 1969, I'd already become something of a bleeding heart liberal leftist hippie-commie peacenik. What can I say, I always ran with an older crowd and I learned fast. :0/

(Why do I say "inevitable" atrocities? I guess because I'm a realist. Maybe I wasn't then, but I am now. And when you take a bunch of scared, half-trained teenagers and drop them into the middle of a jungle to fight and get killed by unknown and unseen enemies, it's practically a given that most of it is going to end up FUBAR. I understand a lot more than I did back then. Reprehensible, horrible, even insane actions? Yup. But still somehow understandable, under the circumstances.)

(Even Colburn admits that, as you can see when you read through his memories of that particular time and place. And I don't blame those poor scared kids for what happened way back when. I didn't then, and I still don't now. I blamed their grown-up, supposedly wise and mature officers, and the REMF's and wheelchair generals who were pulling their strings, and the soulless bastards back in Washington who created the whole damn mess in the first place... and I still do now. But I digress.)

By the spring of 1970 I might have still been just a young teenager, but I was already fast becoming a cynical war-hating activist. I was in good company. I reckon as how a lot of you reading this were in the same place I was then. And to this day I don't regret a bit of what I did or said or stood for back then, or in the bitter and contentious years that followed. I still feel the same way today.

This country was undergoing horribly painful spasms of fear and hate and hope and horror from then through the mid-1970's. Those were not smileyhappygroovy peaceful times. They were bitter and divisive times, and for a lot of it all, we often felt as though we were going to be witnesses to the terminal disintegration of our own nation.

But we persevered, and we maintained, and somehow or other we managed to muddle through all the mess and still make it through to the other side. We endured, and more importantly, our country endured. And that's why it pisses me so thoroughly off to find ourselves back in what looks on the surface of it to be the same damn same old again.

Like Karen said in that interview, we shouldn't have to be doing the same things all over again 35 years later. The thing is, though, that we aren't. Not quite. We have tools now that we didn't have then, this very website for just one tiny example. And, more importantly, we have a shared awareness that we didn't have back then, an institutional memory if you will. We remember how it was back in the day, and we're damned if we will ever let it get that bad again before we do something about it.

And, *most* importantly, we don't have to just keep on hoping that we can slay the dragon and stand up to the beast -- because we already know that we can. We know we can, because we already have. And we will slay it and stand up to it again... over, and over, as many times as it takes.

But. Anyway. That’s a mighty long digression there, I know. But it’s one of the crucial lessons that taught me to be what I am today. And I just thought maybe y’all might want to know that, too.

oh there’ll be peace in the valley some day,
Otter

Toolmaker- the Republicans swept into office because they had organization and because they weren't ashamed to make any accusation against their democratic opponents, no matter how untrue. The plan that they had was to paint our candidates with unfair accusations of being big spenders, womanizers, weak on defense, and wishy-washy. They had leaders like Newt Gingrich and Bob Barr that would say anything to get their candidates into power. And who would take money from any source to make their campaign successful.
I don't really want to sweep into office with a plan like that. All politics being local, it's up to every single one of our candidates to run on their own issues, and those issues may not be the same ones you and I would pick.
What we have going for us right now is that the news is filled with the lies of the right wing, with Jack Abramoff, with the Valerie Plame affair, with a failed war in Iraq, and with a president who believes himself to be above the law.
People now know they were duped, and they have no desire to vote again for the people who duped them. But we can't form some kind of "national agenda," or make some kind of litmus test for our candidates, because this country is too big for that. We can't just choose a leader and have every democratic candidate in America sign on to whatever he says. All politics is local- that's a fact.
In my area of the country, no democrat could succeed with a pro-gay marriage, pro-gun control agenda. But one could succeed with an agenda of real fiscal conservatism, and with convincing our local citizens that the Republicans aren't being fair to our vets. That's because this is a heavily military area.
Somewhere else those other issues might be a plus, but not here. And probably not in the mid-west either. This party has ABSOLUTELY got to stop being the party of the corners of America. They can't continue to say the midwest and South don't matter.
We do have a chance to take over this year, and I think we will. I honestly don't care if we take over just because Republican stumbled or not, because it will be a good thing for America. But every one of our candidates will have ideas and plans. John Kerry had them, such as allowing 55 year olds to buy into medicare. I'll bet you never heard of that one, did you? The ideas are there, but they have to be gotten out. I guess until they do, there will be a lot of people who say we have no agenda. And they'll be repeating Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh when they say that.
I have no intention of becoming a ditto-head. Or of saying we have no direction. Because we do.

Linda Enterkin
Well said.

Otter
I am of the same vintage.
When we went to SF to protest before the war started, I heard again and again that we shouldn't have to do this all over again 35 years later.

More on Church/State Separation & lst Amendment:
I was thinking (while sweeping the floor) about the prayer I must listen to every day at work but I accept that I'm working in a Catholic Hospital.

If I had to go to Court and I saw the Ten Commandments there I would not be able to see how that is different from living in Saudi Arabia (our friend) - different religion maybe.

All for progressive social change, Thats what the democratic party stood for. We need to stand for something again, not just in opposition to whoever isnt democrat.
Repulican campaigns defined what the democratic party stands for, because we are unable to do it ourselves. The result is a splintered image and a numbers advantage but cannot win national elections for Presidency.
Progressive social programs were our strength for decades...when we lost those goals we lost our base. One day someone will represent those Core Values again.

More importantly;
There are times that transcend political affiliations, one of those times is right now, today. Leading democrats should be reaching to republicans that believe in the Republic and Constitution and agreeing on a course of action that will rescue this Nation from the destructive spiral we are in.
History is replete with examples of head strong presidents, kings and prime ministers destroying a Nation. The United States is not impervious, the weight of this presidents actions will begin taking their toll soon.

Very good summary on Church & State - details the relationship in many countries of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

US does not have the most clear-cut boundaries on separation of church and state.

Toolmaker

Coming into the election, the Republican party already controlled all 3 branches of government and the 4th estate, the media.

We didn't lose because there was no plan.
It's the Republicans who had no plan.
The media lied and people bought it, even on the left.

What the Right have had is a plan for dominance - the K Street Plan, the Contract for America, the corporate-funded think tanks.

They don't actually have any plans for how to do anything, socially or overseas. You can see it in the "results" - Hurricane Katrina, Iraq - 11 dead the other day, 14 dead today.

Remember - I don't believe the 2000 and 2004 elections were decided by the democratic process.

I agree what goes around comes around - for Bush.

It was:

Our Plan for America: Stronger at Home, Respected in the World.
http://www.johnkerry.com/plan

versus

Welcome to the Project for the New American Century
An educational organization supporting American global military, diplomatic, and moral leadership.
http://www.newamericancentury.org

I have tried to research who funds the latter and kept coming up with names like Rockwell, a defense contractor. War is profitable and those who profit keep getting tax breaks.

And speaking of what goes around comes around for Bush (and friends) Bigger fish may fry

From Rawstory: Time: FBI email says Abramoff case 'far from over' - Abramoff Viewed as ‘The Middle Guy,’ Official Involved in Probe Tells TIME, Suggesting There Are Bigger Targets in Their Sights

New York - In an internal e-mail obtained by TIME, the director of the FBI’s Washington field office, Michael Mason, congratulated some 15 agents and 15 support staff under him on the case for “a huge accomplishment” in squeezing Jack Abramoff to make a deal after 18 months of investigation and negotiation, one that made “a huge contribution to ensuring the very integrity of our government.” But he added that “the case is far from over,” TIME’s National Political Correspondent Karen Tumulty reports in Monday editions of the magazine, RAW STORY has learned.

Another official involved with the probe told TIME that investigators are viewing Abramoff as “the middle guy”—suggesting there are bigger targets in their sights.....

More here: http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Time_FBI_email_says_Abramoff_case_0108.html

All it takes is one person to stand and declare the emperor has no clothes. Sooner or later that will occur. Whoever that is, will become the defacto leader of the movement to return this Nation to a sane environment.

I respect everyones opinions here, but cannot accept because we are not in majority we are relegated to simply watch the nation self destruct. There are many mechanisms within Constitutional and Senate mechanisms...we just need someone with courage to start using them.

In world history, it is the people that stood when it was safer to sit, that shouted when everyone remained silent, and risked their office for cause we remember as being a leader.

Its time, its only a Matter of who has the courage and conviction to see the larger picture and the precarious position this Nation is in.

Posted by: Linda Enterkin at January 8, 2006 01:00 PM

Howard Dean's mouth is precisely the reason I just love the man. And, he stays on topic and doesn't let fluff journalists lead him off-topic. We need more people with Howard Dean's abilities....

Linda Enterkin
Actually, I agreed with most of Dean's "gaffes" - he opened his mouth before the handlers could stop him. The few times this happened with Kerry made me wish it would happen more too (especially "lying, crooked bunch..it's scary" - or whatever it was). My talking Dean doll even screams. Even that was distorted by microphone placement.

Toolmaker

I think what Murtha did (in one area) was a good example, even if late in the game. He had some authority, since he had been a warhawk yet felt we were doing the wrong thing.

It would be great to see a Republican really see the light and do a switcheroo. Or a few more like the Repub who became an Independent in the Senate - why can't more do that?! They need not to fear the reaction of their constituents. Those need to see the light too. The leaders need to lead, not just follow. They are like mid-level managers, stuck between the peons (us) and the bosses. They need to step up.

Toolmaker

I don't believe the US people can do it alone.
I think we are "occupied" from within and that many of the evils we accuse Saddam of (cronyism, torture) are happening in our own administration.

I would love to see an international effort for peace, with people from all over the world. We had some of this before the war but it wasn't enough. The world was waiting for King George to be dethroned but it didn't happen.

I really don't think it's possible to change the US just from within. We need to know what's going on in the elections in other countries, who hangs out with Bush, what Condi is doing when she travels, what Saudi leaders who visit the White House are told, what Rumsfeld is doing when he goes to South America, what Tom Delay was doing speaking to the Israeli Knesset, why the Downing Street Memo did not unseat Tony Blair, what dealings Hastert was having with Turkey, why Halliburton gets all the contracts, why Europeans quite talking about secret prisons after Condi visited, how the US got a "coalition" for Iraq in the first place (even though it fell through). It is not just about corporate scandals and even if it were, they are international corporations, maybe headed in US. How do CEOs launder their dirty money? Why was the head of the company Abramoff bought gambling boats from killed, how and by whom? Why was Valerie Plame's identity leaked besides the "official" reason? Do we actually think our Congresspeople and media will tell us? We need to dig deeper and we need to network with others who care, wherever they are.

Posted by: Otter at January 8, 2006 11:32 AM

They're just afraid of anyone new in office. Hastert can't be any worse or any better than The Cretin, Chinkster, or Rummy. His current peers just might be able to control him better.

On the other hand, the ol' boy just might be one of those going down in flames with the Abramoff scandals, and he'll be replaced, too.

Nice story here talking about Bush and Delay and Abramhoff:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1147135,00.html

we find out where skeletons are buried when we get the keys to the cemetary. Unfortunately there is little coordination to regain congress and the executive branch by the democratic party.

First we need to focus on immediate action;
Evidence the president of the United States broke the law.
Hearings have become nonsensical excercises in futility. When a Hearing becomes announced it is to delay, provide political cover and find the poor soul to fall on a sword.

The evidence exists in the Attorney General and within past officials of this Administration. In the recorded tapes and transcripts of meetings this White House bugged. In presidential directives and orders, within political operatives feeling the waters for immunity and protection for crimes committed for this adminstration and heaven knows what else we will hear in the next 6 months.

This President is more paranoid that Nixon and Hoover combined, it seems only people in America dont get it.

Posted by: Toolmaker at January 8, 2006 02:54 PM

Toolmaker,

Quite simply we need a leader. IMHO I think the internet stifles any one person to become the leader. That leader will be born from their local environs and then use the internet to further establish their prominence and following.

If look at the picture of the Christian Peacemaker Team members holding signs in Lafayatte Square Park you will notice there are folding, lawn chairs in the background.

These are totally illegal. AND the chairs are sitting on the sidewalk, which can get you arrested. You can't block the sidewalk with a chair!

The only comment the peacemakers ever heard was to drag the blue platform, which is legal, closer to the chairs. That's it!

Had I not watched this, I would not have believed it. These people radiate peace and love. The police came and talked to them often as did others.

I had planned to vigil with them, but I talk too much and they never got a word in. They never mentioned all the good they do in IRAQ. So I left to let them do their work.

But to let them have CHAIRS!

Sometimes the world surprises us.

Wow what a cool thread.

After a long day I realized I had missed much of this thread when I was catching up on the blog in the past few days.

So, I decided tonight to read the entire thread, even if it meant I got to bed later.

I am very thankful to Karen for covering the exorcism at the White House. Many Christians believe that the breaking of evil patterns (called strongholds) happens as a result of sincere, earnest, prayer. Many Christians also believe that the breaking of evil patterns and the ridding of evil begins in the spiritual realm, and is not seen in the physical realm until later, when evidences of the fight begin to surface. This action is quite significant to me, and a hopeful sign - because it accomplishes something worthwhile through the effort of the act itself, besides showing symbolism that there are some devout Christians out here in America who are not rightwingnuts, and don't just agree with everything the President is doing because he claims to be a Christian. They also don't agree and follow like blind, deaf, and dumb sheep because Pat Robertson tells them it's a great idea.

There were alot of great ideas communicated on this thread, which, just like our motto claims, helps us understand one another better, and ups our level of tolerance for people who think differently than we do.

I can tell you that after listening and watching the nauseating things Bush, Rove, and the groups that manipulate sincere Christians into sending money and giving votes through snail mail and email and phone calls by pretending to be sincere Christians do, it is a breath of fresh air to be informed about this small gathering praying against the evil inside the White House.

Thank you Eric, for participating, and Karen and Dick for reporting. As a person who has spent many hours in near agony over the way the Christian religion is being used as a marketing tool by rich and corrupt people, it was indeed, a wonderful bit of news. We wouldn't have heard about it from the mainstream news media.