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Know Thine Enemy
[Editor's Note: The following essay was submitted by DCP blogger Ladytechie (and somehow the original editor's note was omitted). Her point reinforces the concept mentioned by William Raspberry that Otter brought to our attention several weeks ago here and here.]
Wherein I timidly propose that, once in while, we should watch O'Reilly or Hannity or Joe Scarborough.
Now I know that most of you have raced to the bottom of the page to hit the comments section to question my sanity. Hear me out.
We have talked much about where do we go from here. Most of us agree on one thing whatever our pet issues are: that the climate has suddenly turned and administration change is now possible. Not only possible, but probable.
How do we make sure that it happens? One voter at a time, of course. Now is the time to reach out to those whom before we would have assumed were so hardened in their beliefs that we would waste our time talking to them.
And here is where we need to stop avoiding the mainstream press, and even television. It is a golden rule of debate that in order to win a debate you must be able to argue both sides of the proposition.
That's where O'Reilly comes in, as does ABC, NBC, CNN and don't forget that CBS does still have a news broadcast. Whether we like it or not, the majority of those around us still get all of their news from these sources. It is so much easier to expand a conversation when you understand the other person’s frame of reference.
"I don't have to watch to know what the mainstream is saying, I can read it on the blogs, or catch a clip", you say. Yet by reading just the sound bites we miss much. We take more away from a viewing experience than just the words. The non-verbal often says as much or more. Just watching O'Reilly for example, is a wonderful exercise in interpreting body language, both his and his beleaguered guests’.
I don't for one minute suggest that we're watching to become informed. All of us here have learned about the wealth of resources on the Internet. What I am saying is that it is still true that the majority of people in the United States don't use those resources. We need to understand the world view of the nonpolitical to bring them into the process. In order to do that, we have to start where they are, not where we want them to be.
Not long ago I ran into a lady who remarked to me, “Oh, if I see it on Fox, then I know it's true.” My reaction was just as knee jerk as any good liberal… How dumb can this woman be? Yet, if I only get my information from the Washington Post, or Rawstory, or just this blog, I am as narrow minded as she is.
Civil discourse can only happen if we listen to both sides of the discussion, pay as much attention to what Condi says as we do Kerry or Kennedy. It is civil discourse that will change the direction we are taking, not a hardening of the attitudes. This is true on both sides of the aisle.
The listening has got to start someplace, let it begin with us.
~Ladytechie
That is certainly important Ann and when I forward links I certainly do try to find non-partison sites. However, I do avoid freeperville because it's like reading Rush Limbaugh or listening to Ann Coulter.
(Accidentally hit 'enter' to soon.
I find I don't want to listen to them becuase they're yelling all the time. And they're talking over people. To me, that's just not productive.
However, at least with op-eds you can read them without the shouting.
I don't eat fast food & haven't for a decade and a half. You are what you eat. I stopped tv in 1991 because of Gulf War propaganda.
Sometimes I hate the DEmocratic party:
From Paul Hackett:
Dear Carol,
Today I am announcing that I am withdrawing from the race for United States Senate. I made this decision reluctantly, only after repeated requests by party leaders, as well as behind the scenes machinations, that were intended to hurt my campaign.
But there was no quid pro quo. I will not be running in the Second Congressional District nor for any other elective office. This decision is final, and not subject to reconsideration.
I told the voters from the beginning that I am not a career politician and never aspired to be--that I was about leadership, service and commitment.
Similarly, I told party officials that I had given my word to other good Democrats, who will take the fight to the Second District, that I would not run. In reliance on my word they entered the race. I said it. I meant it. I stand by it. At the end of the day, my word is my bond and I will take it to my grave.
Thus ends my 11 month political career. Although it is an overused political cliché, I really will be spending more time with my family, something I wasn't able to do because my service to country in the political realm continued after my return from Iraq. Perhaps my wonderful wife Suzi said it best after we made this decision when she said "Honey, welcome home." I really did marry up.
To my friends and supporters, I pledge that I will continue to fight and to speak out on the issues I believe in. As long as I have the microphone, I will serve as your voice.
It is with my deepest respect and humility that I thank each and every one of you for the support you extended to our campaign to take back America, and personally to me and my family. Together we made a difference. We changed the debate on the Iraq War, we inspired countless veterans to continue their service by running for office as Democrats and we made people believe again. We must continue to believe.
Remember, we must retool our party. We must do more than simply aspire to deliver greatness; we must have the commitment and will to fight for what is great about our party and our country; Peace, prosperity and the freedoms that define our democracy.
Rock on.
The Hackett thing makes no sense to me. Am I the only one who didn't see it coming?
Cheney in the Bush's sights now?
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13868948.htm
Posted by: Carol at February 14, 2006 09:21 AM
Cheney shoots people in the face, democrats shoot themselves in the foot, repeatedly.
Unbelievable.
Ann,
Excellent points. I,like sparrow, have a hard time finding someone I can listen to who isn't yelling and cutting people off, which I just can't tolerate. It makes me crazy. David Brooks I can listen to, and some of the other more calm voices, but most of them just shout a lot - the loudest voice wins.
You're right though, we do need to try to find someone on the other side that we can actually listen to, to get the point of view from the other side.
Thanks for reminding us!
monkey, sparrow;
I had read some rumblings on the Hackett thing over the weekend. The party wanted him to run for the 2nd district again, to defeat Jean Schmidt, supposedly because they don't have anyone else that could beat her, and he did have a democratic opponent in the senate race.
Hackett is a man of honor, and, apparently unlike most politicians int he leadership, a man who keeps his word and has a little integrity.
Days like this I wonder why I support the dems at all.
WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney has been given a warning citation for breaking Texas hunting law by failing to buy a $7 stamp allowing him to shoot upland game birds.
The warning came from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department after it investigated Cheney’s accidental shooting of a fellow quail hunter Saturday on the private Armstrong Ranch in the south part of the state.
The department found the accident was caused by a “hunter’s judgment factor” when Cheney sprayed another hunter while aiming at flying birds.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11340558/
THE JUDGEMENT FACTOR!
Once again, being decisive doesn't mean you have good judgement.
PULL!
ralph,
yes, Shwatz is proud of the support from the unions.
BUT which of those dems have a record that's viable to you? Do you have to live in that district to run?
Posted by: sparrow at February 14, 2006 12:28 AM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I have spoken to three of the Democrats running for the seat. Any one of the three would make a good Representative. I don't care if they are not as "polished" as Joe Schwarz is - Joe has voted WRONG on every major piece of legislation going through the House in the last year. He has accepted thousands of dollars in campaign contributions from Tom DeLay and Hastert and other bigshot Republican rightwingers.
To the unions I would say "JOE IS A REPUBLICAN AND VOTED FOR CAFTA" - end of story. Labor seems to want to be treated like a doormat.
Posted by: Carol at February 14, 2006 09:21 AM
Cheney shoots people in the face, democrats shoot themselves in the foot, repeatedly.
Unbelievable.
Posted by: monkey at February 14, 2006 09:38 AM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
WHAT MACHINATIONS IS HE TALKING ABOUT?? So now the Dems don't have anyone to run against the awful rookie SCHmidt and running against Dewine, is "career politician", Sherrod Brown?
OT...but Hero of the Day (and perhaps of the Olympics) goes to Joey Cheek, US Olympic speed skating gold medalist used his 15 minues of fame to announce that he is donating all his Olympic winnings to Right to Play, an organization dedicated to improving the lives of kids in disadvantaged parts of the world (and specifically Darfur.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060214/SPORTS17/602140436/1065
Cheek decides charity tops win
$25,000 donated to Right to Play
Of course, he could have donated his winnings without telling anybody. But Cheek wants to get the word out, and he is calling on Olympic sponsors to match his donation, which should bring hundreds of thousands of dollars to Right to Play. (You can help too: Go to www.righttoplay.com and click "Donate" under "how to help.")
"In the Darfur region of Sudan, there have been tens of thousands of people killed," Cheek said. "My government has labeled it a genocide. I will be donating it specifically to a program to help refugees in Chad, where there are over 60,000 children who have been displaced from their homes."
Chuck in Doha for Anne on on Topic:
I appreciate what you are saying about staying "tuned-in" to the MSM, and I see a lot of merit in it. But just wanted to post this in the spirit of "everybody's got their own style." I've been overseas an awful lot and sometimes quite isolated so I follow things through diverse means, no especially the blog, but I still go for primary sources or "dense reads" when I can get them.
Anyway, to the point, sometimes I have found that you can get people outside the spoon-fed box by simply challenging them in a Socratic sense, like when the lady says "I know it's true because I saw it on FOX," I'd come back and say: "FOX? I thought they did the 'Simpsons' and 'Married with Childern.' Why do you trust them on the news, especially? I've never seen the news part of it myself. Who's that Murdoch guy anyway?" (E.g., this is a hypothetical example.) The idea is to try to draw people out to put their own words on it, not somebody else's. Sometimes it jars some logic loose.
I know that sounds a bit manipulative but actually it is true -- I am way behind the times on MSM (again, except for internet, but that is a different animal as if I don't understand something in a NTY or WaPo or LAT article I google!).
Chuck in Doha
Hey Carol (February 14, 2006 09:21 AM) from Chuck in Doha:
Don't get too bummed about Hackett. It's a rough and tumble world and we have to be able to absorb all kinds of hits. I'll admit I'm a bit bummed myself, but, as the Bard of Minnesota said: "don't follow leaders, feed your parking meters." I save strong personally loyalty for people I know well, and even then only after the bond has been tested, having been disappointed too often when I do otherwise.
Chuck in Doha
PS: That kinda explains a lot of Country lyrics, come to think on it....
BTW, Ann, you've made many good points about why we should pay attention to what MSM/TV says. For one, it's good to know what lies we have to dispel. Secondly, sometimes they may surprise us and tell the truth. (I can dream, can't I?) And lastly, NBC is worth watching just to see David Gregory.
Today's American Progress cartoon...
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/c.biJRJ8OVF/b.3457/
interesting article on the Hackett issue
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/nataffdaily/story/9306524/democrats_think_small?rnd=1139934896145&has-player=false
DiAnne:
What's the skinny (25 words or less)?
Chuck in Doha
Words and music by Hank Williams sr.
I [g] wandered so aimless life filed with sin
I [c] wouldn’t let my dear saviour [g] in
Then jesus came like a stranger in the night
Praise the lord [d7] I saw the [g] light.
Chorus
I saw the light I saw the light
[c] no more darkness no more [g] night
Now I’m so happy no sorrow in sight
Praise the lord [d7] I saw the [g] light.
Just like a blind man I wandered along
Worries and fears I claimed for my own
Then like the blind man that God gave back his sight
Praise the lord I saw the light.
Chorus
I was a fool to wander and stray
Straight is the gate and narrow the way
Now I have traded the wrong for the right
Praise the lord I saw the light.
Chorus
Chuck in DOha
Well, DiAnne, clicked the link. What can I say? Mariah Carey on the cover looks real good!
Chuck in Doha
PS: 2 1/2 weeks and I'm HOME!!!!!!!!
On topic in re this thread header:
A week or two back I quoted a few key things that Scarborough had said on his blog in the days following the SOTU speech, a few key points he made then that amounted to a short, pithy, easy-to-remember game plan for Democrats who want to take back our country and our future from the neo-thugs in Washingtoon.
And yes, he did make it clear that that's what they were; and yes, he did make it easy for us to pay attention when he said it; and yes, he was correct in what he said -- not merely right, but actually correct also. Cogent and correct.
And my having repeated his cogent suggestions drew a couple of snarky remarks from some regulars here, but everybody else reacted to my quoting Scarborough in a positive sense as though I was Cheney Fudd and had just dropped a bird in the punch bowl.
Gee. Imagine my surprise.
sometimes silence speaks volumes too,
Otter
So Otter, don't keep me in suspense -- what's the good word from Scarborough Country?!
Chuck in Doha
Recorded by Hank Williams
Words and music by Maurice Murry and Fred Rose
Capo: 2nd fret key: e play: d
You [d] thought she’d care for you and [d7] so you acted [g] smart
Go [a7] on an break, you crazy [d] heart
You lived on promises I [d7] knew would fall a-[g] part
Go [a7] on and break you crazy [d] heart. [d7]
You [g] never would admit you were mis-[d] tak-en
You [g] didn’t even know, the [d] chances you were [a7] takin’
I [d] knew you couldn’t win, I [d7] told you from the [g] start
Go [a7] on and break you crazy [d] heart.
I knew you’d wake up and find her missin’
I tried my best to warn you, but you wouldn’t listen
You told me I was wrong, you thought that you were smart
Go on an break you crazy heart.
Chuck in Doha
I'm extremely disappointed with the Hackett story. This is why I am proud to be nonpartisan now, like DCP itself, and not tied to the sorry tatters of a party that's lost its direction.
And on the topic, I've indoctrinated myself in the conservative ideology over the years, starting in college, reading such books as the Bell Curve, a "scientific" explanation of the "superiority" of the white race. More recently it was debating with transgender "women" (along the lines of Mann Coulter), who were advocating a flat national sales tax to replace the income tax. Needless to say, I've gotten valuable knowledge about the neocon agenda that lets me really know why I must disagree with them - and fight them.
My latest is going over my old Sunday school notes. That way, I can understand the Bible - the battle plan of the neocons - better, fight the Dominionists more effectively on THEIR territory, and better understand why I cannot ever be a Christian again.
Mariah Carey on the cover looks real good!
Chuck in Doha
Posted by: chuck at February 14, 2006 11:55 AM
I think she looks horrible today... at least compared to when I met her in person 12 years ago.
Plus, the media have spun her as another of "virgin before marriage" moralistic cases.
My computer has been on the fritz this morning. I just got it functional and realized that the editor's note on the thread header was omitted.
I've added it but I want to note it here as well.
[Editor's Note: The following essay was submitted by DCP blogger Ladytechie (and somehow the original editor's note was omitted). Her point reinforces the concept mentioned by William Raspberry that Otter brought to our attention several weeks ago here...
http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/archives/2005/12/looking_in_the.html
and here...
http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/archives/2006/01/a_cold_morning.html
And thanks LT for your thoughtful piece.
From Hank, for Chuck:
....................
Now you're lookin' at a man that's gettin' kinda mad
I had lots of luck but it's all been bad
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
My fishin' pole's broke the creek is full of sand
My woman run away with another man
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
A distant uncle passed away and left me quite a batch
And I was livin' high until that fatal day
A lawyer proved I wasn't born
I was only hatched
Everything's against me and it's got me down
If I jumped in the river I would probably drown
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
These shabby shoes I'm wearin' all the time
Are full of holes and nails
And brother if I stepped on a worn out dime
I bet a nickel I could tell you if it was heads or tails
I'm not gonna worry wrinkles in my brow
'Cause nothin's ever gonna be alright nohow
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
I could buy a Sunday suit and it would leave me broke
If it had two pair of pants I would burn the coat
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
If it was rainin' gold I wouldn't stand a chance
I wouldn't have a pocket in my patched up pants
No matter how I struggle and strive
I'll never get out of this world alive
....................
welcome to chensfeld-bushrove country hank,
Otter
To Ally from Chuck (February 14, 2006 12:49 PM)
Geez, cut me a little slack! I've been gone 5 1/2 weeks and got 2 1/2 to go and today is Valentines day!
Chuck (too long) in Doha
Thanks LT. Timely.
LINGERING PROBLEMS WITH THE CHENEY ACCIDENT.
I sas thinking, still, last night about how odd this accident was and how it was mishandled.
Many perhaps MOST hunting accidents involve people have been drinking alcohol.
HAD CHENEY BEEN DRINKING???
It also struck me as odd that Cheney hit this fellow in the worst possible place - his face - was this just coincidental.
Then, of course, as has been eluded to earlier in the previous thread who were these two women Hunters??
The new reports say that Whittington, the victim, was some distance from Cheney when he was shot... I had been curious about this as well - the distance and how it was that Cheney could mitake him for a bird etc...
Elvis for Chuck (and Mariah):
....................
'Cause I've been too long in the wind
Too long in the rain
Takin' any comfort that I can
Looking back and longing for the freedom of my chains
And lying in your lovin' arms again
....................
carey me back to old kentucky,
Otter
Posted by: chuck at February 14, 2006 01:08 PM
LOL Chuck... :)
raplheh,
The drinking sure would explain why they waited until the next day to tell the media, and why the Secret Service wouldn't let the local police talk to him.
I guess we'll never know, unless someone blabs down the road.
what a putz. but then... we knew that.
By the way:
Chuck, (and everybody)
Happy Valentine's Day! Chocolates for everyone!
Ralpheh
Well Wittington ended up with a mild heart attack and it was attributed to "hunter judgment" but they didn't say which hunter.
Pellets went in deep to lodge in the heart &
Wittington was 30 yards away. That's pretty far
& if he'd yelled out or warned, would it have
been heard? Hunting experts don't agree and some say Cheney should have looked around before shooting, made sure the way was clear. Others say it's not good sport to shoot at birds that aren't up in the air.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_go_su_co/scalia_constitution
Scalia Dismisses 'Living Constitution'
Excerpt:
Scalia criticized those who believe in what he called the "living Constitution."
"That's the argument of flexibility and it goes something like this: The Constitution is over 200 years old and societies change. It has to change with society, like a living organism, or it will become brittle and break."
"But you would have to be an idiot to believe that," Scalia said. "The Constitution is not a living organism, it is a legal document. It says something and doesn't say other things."
Proponents of the living constitution want matters to be decided "not by the people, but by the justices of the Supreme Court."
"They are not looking for legal flexibility, they are looking for rigidity, whether it's the right to abortion or the right to homosexual activity, they want that right to be embedded from coast to coast and to be unchangeable," he said.
Scalia was invited to Puerto Rico by the Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies. The organization was founded in 1982 as a debating society by students who believed professors at the top law schools were too liberal. Conservatives and libertarians mainly make up the 35,000 members.
{{{Gee. If he believes his own words, then Scalia (in theory) can't be too happy with Bu$hCo's adoption of the theory of the unitary executive as espoused by Alito. The Constitution does not give the Executive branch all the extraordinary powers that have been seized by the wannabe dictator - which, incidentally takes power away from the Judicial branch, too, since The Cretin believes he can dictate what is right or wrong or judicious decisions (and cherry-pick which laws he does or does not want to apply to himself since he clearly believes he is above and outside the law)....}}}
William Rivers Pitt: The Wack-Pack
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021406Z.shtml
William Rivers Pitt compares the oddball patrons of his local watering hole to the gang that is currently running the government.
from Slate - interesting comment:
Hunters, Politicians, and Democracy
This article called "Hunting Democracy" from the Autumn 2005 issue of Montana: The Magazine of
Western History, casts some interesting light on hunting and its overtones in American politics, and on the Veep and his "canned hunting" in particular. Those from the left need to learn now to drive the wedge between the country-club Republicans and the "rugged individualist" Republicans (or more properly, the associated Independents).
Ralpheh
Well Wittington ended up with a mild heart attack and it was attributed to "hunter judgment" but they didn't say which hunter.
Pellets went in deep to lodge in the heart &
Wittington was 30 yards away. That's pretty far
& if he'd yelled out or warned, would it have
been heard? Hunting experts don't agree and some say Cheney should have looked around before shooting, made sure the way was clear. Others say it's not good sport to shoot at birds that aren't up in the air.
Posted by: DiAnne at February 14, 2006 02:21 PM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Who were the two women hunters again? The ambassador to Switzerland and Armstrong?? Where was Mrs. Cheney?
It said on the news this morning that the doctors are going to leave the pellets in Whittington's body because they are so small and so many of them. I take he is still in the hospital....
With all of the idiotic stories the press has released this week regarding Cheney's hunting accident they have missed out on a much more significant story heard today on Air America. Foreign Policy analysts now report that Valerie Plaine was working on a top secret analysis of Iran's nuclear operations at the time of Scooter Libby and Cheney's outing. This story, if correct, would potentially point to their deliberately undermining our national security.
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but Sherrod Brown looks like a career politician and Republican Lite. A link to his website (which is not the good) says Brown says we "can't cut and run" in Iraq....
What a bold position to take...
Real Men Don't Hide Behind Scott McClellan
http://tinyurl.com/cg72z
now is not the time to be attacking our Democratic candidates for November b/c they are not pure enough. I was clearly behind Hackett, but as he said this morning its time we move on and figure out what it will take to take control of the Senate and this country back. Let's not help our opponents, they have enough power as things now are.
Ralpheh
The pellets have shifted, causing a mild heart attack.
Ira:
I'm with you 100% on that, for what it is worth. I think Hackett's a good man and I hope he will continue to be so in whatever capacity. We need Ohio one way or the other and I for one refuse to get hung up on personalities. Hope that helped.
Chuck in Doha
A, O, Way to Go Ohio
Chrissey Hinde
Give them heck Ohio!
And I'm a Wolverines fan from way back!
Chuck in Doha
Quoted without comment from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department website:
"The primary reason for Texas hunting accidents remains swinging on game outside a safe zone of fire. This happens when a person points a firearm at another hunter while following a moving target, such as a flying game bird. Hunter education teaches people to set up safe zones of fire where a gun can be safely pointed whether the target is moving or stationary. ... Careless firearm handling remains another primary factor in many accidents."
cheneycheney bangbang,
Otter
A repost from yesterday morning a couple of threads ago, in case Ira missed seeing it then -- and I mean it sincerely for all concerned to see, or else I wouldn't have posted it in the first place:
....................
Dear Large-D Democratic Party People,
[1] Read this book: http://tinyurl.com/afw3r
[2] Do what it says.
[3] Stop whining and start winning again.
small-d democratically yours,
Otter
Best headline: Cheney's Got a Gun
Remember?
Aerosmith - Janie's Got A Gun Lyrics
Dum, dum, dum, honey what have you done
Dum, dum, dum, it's the sound of my gun
Dum, dum, dum, honey what have you done
Dum, dum, dum, it's the sound, it's the sound...
Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah....
Janie's Got A Gun
Janie's Got A Gun
Her whole world's come undone
From lookin' straight at the sun
What did her daddy do
What did he put you through
They say when Janie was arrested
They found him underneath a train
But man, he had it comin'
Now that Janie's Got A Gun
She ain't never gonna be the same
Janie's Got A Gun
Janie's Got A Gun
Her dog day's just begun
Now everybody is on the run
Tell me now it's untrue
What did her daddy do
He jacked the little bitty baby
The man has got to be insane
They say the spell that he was under
The lightnin' and the thunder
Knew that someone had to stop the rain
Run away, run away from the pain
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Run away, run away from the pain
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Run away, run away, run, run away
Janie's Got A Gun
Janie's Got A Gun
Her dog day's just begun
Now everybody is on the run
What did her daddy do
It's Janie's las I.O.U.
She had to take him down easy
And put a bullet in his brain
She said 'cause nobody believes me
The man was such a sleeze
He ain't never gonna be the same
Run away, run away from the pain
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Run away, run away, run, run away
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Run away, run away, run, run away
Janie's Got A Gun
Janie's Got A Gun
Janie's Got A Gun
Everybody is on the run
Janie's Got A Gun
Her dog day's just begun
Now everybody's on the run (Honey, honey what's your problem)
'Cause Janie's Got A Gun (Tell me it ain't right)
Janie's Got A Gun (Was it daddys cradle robbin')
Her dog day's just begun (That made you scream at night)
Janie's Got A Gun
Her dog day's just begun
Now everybody's on the run
Janie's Got A Gun
I knew in my heart people weren't supposed to just shut up about this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marty-kaplan/we-are-all-harry-whitting_b_15649.html
We Are All Harry Wittington
Well it came out of the sky landed just a little short of Moline
Jody fell out of his tractor couldn't believe what he seen
Cheers All!
Chuck in Doha
Machinations; Democratic party leadership placed pressure on donors not to give money to Hacketts campaign, therefore he is forced to resign. Great job there, DNC leadership. Someday the DNC will mature and use strategy to win elections, but not today.
Cheney; if the hunter dies of heart attack related to shooting....unintentional manslaughter..?, Ironic considering tens of thousands of iraqis, thousands of americans and who know how many others have been killed in Iraq.
Valerie Plame fronted a company whose primary job was tracking uranium and nuclear weapons. Iran was just one of the aspects, there are many more. The White House destroyed her company, her work, and lost huge amounts of intelligence gathering ability in order to silence her husband, who tried to raise the alarm regarding Iraq.
Cheney sits at the juncture of many of this Nations ills.
Chuck:
And Jody said, "It's mine and you can have it for seventeen million."
well shoot y'all,
Otter
(Archived from Kos in December 2005 - waiting to see if there is a connection between Sybel Edmonds' case and Valerie Plame case)
An article in Online Journal by Mike Mejia ties former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds' case to the outing of Valerie Plame and Brewster Jennings.
The story involves the nuclear black market, which Plame and Brewster Jennings were investigating, and the possible illicit selling of US nuclear technology overseas by members of the Bush administration. In other words, Libby and others may have had a number of reasons to want to destroy Plame and Brewster Jennings beyond the Niger uranium story.
Here's an excerpt from the article:
The outing of Valerie Plame may have severely damaged a CIA operation to monitor a nuclear black market faciliated by the shadowy but well-connected Washington lobby group, the American Turkish Council (ATC).
(Those familiar with the Sibel Edmonds case will know the ATC is the very same organization that the former FBI translator heard on wiretaps in connection with various alleged illegal activities, some connected to 9/11.) From Edmonds, Deliso obtained the following admission: "Plame's undercover job involved the organizations [the FBI had been investigating], the ATC (American-Turkish Council) and the ATA (American-Turkish Association) . . . the Brewster Jennings network was very active in Turkey and with the Turkish community in the U.S. during the late 1990s, 2000, and 2001 . . . in places like Chicago, Boston, and Paterson, N.J."
The American Turkish Council is also connected to the neocons like Perle and Feith, who are allies of Scooter Libby. Maybe the outing of Plame and Brewster Jennings was also intended to protect criminal activity? Edmonds may have been silenced by the Supreme Court, but there are other avenues open to investigate this story. For example: Examining the role of former Ambassador to Turkey, recently turned lobbyist, Marc Grossman? Or the roles of John Bolton, Frederick Fleitz, David Wurmser, and another former ambassador to Turkey Eric Edelman?
This is the stuff Christy from Rebellenation was working on. Where is she anyway?
Read this teaser from the AP story that was pushed to the press earlier this afternoon.
Then pause for a second to consider the fact that, when Scott "You Did A Heckuva Job, Brownnose" McClellan and Jeb "Dynasty, What Dynasty?" Bush made their offhand, cheap-shot remarks earlier today they *both already knew* that the first person to be shot by a vice-president since Alexander Hamilton had gone into atrial fibrillation from his injuries and was by no means just mildly salted and 'peppered' by Dick "Duck When You Don't Say That, Podner!" Cheney on Saturday...
..........................
WASHINGTON -- The White House has decided that the best way to deal with Vice President Dick Cheney's shooting accident is to joke about it.
President Bush's spokesman quipped Tuesday that the burnt orange school colors of the University of Texas championship football team that was visiting the White House shouldn't be confused for hunter's safety wear.
"The orange that they're wearing is not because they're concerned that the vice president may be there," joked White House press secretary Scott McClellan, following the lead of late-night television comedians. "That's why I'm wearing it."
The president's brother, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, took a similar jab after slapping an orange sticker on his chest from the Florida Farm Bureau that read, "No Farmers, No Food."
[snip]
...........................
pretty much sums up their collective attitude out there on planet boosh don't it?,
Otter
Paul Hackett on Ed Schultz within the hour will answer a lot of the complaints here.
Who were the two women hunters again? The ambassador to Switzerland and Armstrong?? Where was Mrs. Cheney?
Posted by: ralpheh at February 14, 2006 02:36 PM
The wives were not there - I've not read anything to indicate where Mrs. Whittington or Lynne Cheney were, but it wasn't out hunting. The husbands were not there - at least one of those women is supposedly married, but I don't know which one, and I'm not sure of the marital status of the other one. From what I've read so far, Armstrong owned the property on which the shooting incident occurred, and the other one is the Ambassador to Switzerland, Pamela Willeford. See the previous thread: Posted by: nmvp at February 13, 2006 08:53 PM
I haven't heard that Whittington is out of ICU yet. When yesterday's news stressed that Whittington's injuries were 'minor,' but he was still in ICU as a 'precaution,' I did wonder what we weren't being told; now we know it was worse than originally reported, since he seems to have had a heart attack.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by: DiAnne at February 14, 2006 02:44 PM
Did you catch this sentence toward the end of that article?
"But there is a health and safety law that requires doctors to report gunshot wounds."
I'm thinking that if it were not for that little detail that requires doctors to report gunshot wounds, perhaps the whole thing would have been totally covered up. (And, gee, I wonder if the doctor is a Dem who would not be cowed into silence but chose to follow the law instead - 'cuz I'm assuming Dead Eye Dick would have specifically requested it be hushed up and handled as 'discreetly' as possible.) The WH press 'corpse' seemed to have their noses out of joint yesterday when they found out Armstrong is the one who reported it to the local paper, but none of the WH press 'corpse' (who were not in Cheney's entourage) were informed first.... (And, BTW, why no press 'corpse' with the VP? Doesn't anyone in the media ever travel with him to his 'undisclosed locations?') Although the Secret Service prevented the local law enforcement personnel from talking to Dead Eye Dick, I've not read where they were when this shooting occurred, but it was obviously not with Dead Eye Dick and the other three in the hunting party....
As I said before, the "story" is in the cover-up and speaks to modus operandi....
My little daydream: The WH press 'corpse' starts wondering what else has been kept from them and starts asking probing questions about the propaganda, and then they start doing some independent investigations on their own.... and then they start reporting truth to the American people about cover-ups and LIES and other nefarious goings-on behind the scenes of the most secretive administration in our history. Ah, such a pretty little daydream....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
pretty much sums up their collective attitude out there on planet boosh don't it?
Posted by: Otter at February 14, 2006 03:46 PM
Yes, they're trying to get some sort of one-upmanship on the late-nite comics who will lampoon this for at least a week, maybe more (depends on whether or not Whittington's heart attack is worse than originally reported). IMHO, coming from the administration it sounds like jokes with incredibly bad taste. Coming from the late-nite comics, it's hysterically funny....
OK, you had fun with Cheney.
But is it the only bone you have to bite?
I do understand you hate that guy, and you would like him to get out power. But...
You regularly denounce the showbiz press. Why do you do the same?
You have so many values to defend, ecxept you are trapped in your scandals news scheme.
I've been watching you for some years, and from time to time I get lost.
I'm awfully sorry to say so, but you are just behaving as teens.
There is no balance in your position. one day you are just "throwing ashes upon your hair" as the old Jews (lamenting on everything) and the day after having fun about the oldie who didn't shoot properly.
Is that politics?
is that what you want to achieve?
Where is your goal?
Bang bang, he shot me down
Bang bang, I hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound
Bang bang, my Cheney shot me down
sure is a good thing now that them pesky environmentalist treehuggers forced bush the elder's highly-resistant peeps to ban poisonous lead shotgun pellets way back in 1991 anyway,
Otter
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 04:33 PM
You may think this is all in fun, Andrée, but there is also quite a bit of seriousness behind this issue. It is precisely an issue like this -- and especially the way it has been handled by the White House -- that makes more people aware of how corrupt, incompetent, and dishonest this administration is. Yes, there are many other important issues, but this is one that will resonate with the general American public -- much more so than the complicated spy issues, loss of civil rights, illegal & immoral wars, etc., etc., etc. This is something the average American can understand and be appalled by.
And yes, it is politics, believe it or not.
What do we hope to achieve and what is our goal?
To end the tyranny of this administration...however we have to do it.
Truth is a sword that cuts in all directions. It is a mind that is unprejudiced by religion, philosophy and cultural conditioning. It is going naked to the stars. [I like this quote, but since it didn't come with the credit as to who said it, I don't know to whom it should be attributed.]
Good thread header, and a reminder to "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer."
I do try to tune in to the local in-state news, and PBS' BBC news broadcasts, and PBS' The News Hour (most days, but some days I just don't). Whether I agree or disagree with two or more sides of any discussion, at least The News Hour interviews provide food for thought, and I can usually count on people getting to finish what they have to say without being cut off by someone - either another guest or the moderator/anchor.
There is a weekly in-state (MN) show every Friday night produced by the Twin Cities PBS station that often has panelists from the two major political parties, and sometimes third parties, too, and when they're not discussing MN politics they do sometimes touch on national politics. Mostly, they do let people finish sentences, with a few rare exceptions where another panelist cuts someone off (which I find very annoying) and the show's hosts have to stop the fray.
Quite a few years ago I remember trying to watch the talking heads on some Faux show - it was so long ago I've forgotten who was involved or the topic(s) being discussed. Shouting and interruptions do not indicate a level of civilized discourse I'd actually tune in to watch on any regular basis. Who can hear anyone's points, valid or not, if three people are all talking at the same time? So, I self-censor and refuse to tune in.
On occasion, I've tried to listen to the Sunday talking heads on CBS and ABC (I don't have cable, can't get NBC here without cable). When the anchors and guests spout neoCon propaganda, I lose my patience because no one says WHY they believe the neoCon propaganda they're repeating like a kid who's repeating a Bible verse memorized for Sunday school who has no idea what the words so carefully memorized mean. That annoys me. Last Sunday I was channel surfing, saw CondiSleazy on one of the talking heads shows, I've heard what she has to say before (she seems to have her speeches memorized and always repeats herself, even stammering in the same places usually), so I went on to something else, and then almost missed hearing anything Dean had to say after her (I didn't even know who was going to be on since I'd missed the first few minutes of the show).
But your point is well taken. We need to try to monitor what the neoCons are saying on these talking heads shows and/or at least read transcripts of what they're saying in print to know how to pre-but or rebut their words. (And, let's face it: at least reading their words will keep the TV safe from having large objects thrown at it when we hear three lies in one sentence spoken by a neoCon....)
Andree:
The reason this particular story has got the legs it does, I think, is that when Cheney & Rumsfeld & Bush & Rove lie about everything big under the sun, it doesn't surprise us anymore. In fact, we expect them to lie about the big stuff every chance they get. It's what they do over there in D.C., after all.
It's the fact that they've gotten caught red-handed lying about the small stuff this time that is really catching the interest of the people now, though. Never underestimate the power of what appears to be a very minor thing to be the final tipping point once critical mass has already been built up.
A hunting accident is no big deal. I live in hooks-and-bullets country, everybody up here fishes and hunts and we know that sometimes, well, shoot happens.
But because we know that, we also know when we're being lied to and up-covered about something that should be no big deal, except for the fact that it's being treated like a big deal by the Washingweasels over yonder.
We know that if they didn't have anything to hide, then they wouldn't be hiding it like they sure do seem to be doing... and that makes us go "hmmm"...
for lack of a nail the horseshoe was lost et cetera,
Otter
Once again, being decisive doesn't mean you have good judgement.
PULL!
Posted by: monkey at February 14, 2006 10:05 AM
It's ALWAYS the other guy's fault with these guys.
I bet the guy in the hospital with his face all peppered up was glad to hear that!!
(Kinda like "Heck of a job Brownie" last week when he said the federal government was unorganized and didn't respond to his pleas for help - they turned around and said it was HIS fault.)
Welcome to the "party". Having fun yet?
Another thing about this Cheney issue... We may get one of our wishes: Cheney may resign. However, who they replace him with could be worse...like Condi.
A hunting accident is no big deal. I live in hooks-and-bullets country, everybody up here fishes and hunts and we know that sometimes, well, shoot happens.
Posted by: Otter at February 14, 2006 04:42 PM
A creative and cute word from Otter - priceless!
Truth:
"Welcome to the 'party'. Having fun yet?"
Hmm.
Just ask Scottie "When I Talked To You Guys This Morning I Didn't Mean 'Dick'" McClellan about that. He's sure been having a positive bigtime e-ticket blast these last couple of days.
Of course, that's why he gets paid the big yuks. Er, I mean, the big bucks. Or maybe that's supposed to be the big doe instead. Whatever it is, though, it's still worth a shot.
veep me daddy eight to the bar,
Otter
Madame Defarge and Otter,
Thank you for giving me an American answer by the small size of the lens, as mainstream people seem to get it only that way. This is dramatic at the same time. I'be better shut up about my French/our European conception of democracy...that ends up to be so far away from what is going on in US.
Je ne peux pas comprendre.
This is the stuff Christy from Rebellenation was working on. Where is she anyway?
Posted by: nmp at February 14, 2006 03:30 PM
Christy is banned from DCP for personal attacks on another member.
I'm still in touch with her though, through her blog.
No, no, Andree -- please keep on giving us the view from your end of the lens every chance you get. We rely upon that to keep us aware and informed and un-insulated. And it is very important that we keep being exposed to what it looks like from your side of the world also. So please don't stop now, okay?
sorry we're so Americentric over here,
Otter
Posted by: Andree - France at February 14, 2006 04:33 PM
Bear with us Andree. Speaking for myself, the accident gave cause to pause, for a good laugh. Are we going to have fun with this? I think it is well worth a few chuckles, and it will be in the news for a while.
You know how they say a picture is worth a thousand words? I hope this picture stays with people for a long time.
For myself, I believe God has a way of bringing the haughty down to the size of a mere mortal. I am enjoying every chuckle.
We have so many bones to bite we don't know which one to tackle next. The corruption is rampant.
We haven't lost our minds, we just deserve a good laugh! Then of course it will be back to work. Many of us are having a laugh WHILE we work on other important issues facing our country and our world!
Andree,
We also joke about it because we have to laugh at something, or else we'll go crazy. This group that is leading our country to hell gives us more to cry about every day.
Sometimes we need a good laugh at their expense. It keeps us sane. And all the better that it was Cheney this time. There is NOTHING funny about that guy - except this.
Posted by: Otter at February 14, 2006 04:51 PM
LOL!
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 04:33 PM
Have to agree with madame on this one....
Georgie & Cheney got into office because peole who voted for them said they liked the fact that Bu$h (in particular) was a "common" man, "one of them" and Cheney was accepted as the same because of the fact both men hunted - and "they" (the people who think they are the common people who voted for common men to run this country) are the NRA-gun-toting-hunters who yak about the 'right to bear arms.'
"They" (gun-toting-2nd Amendment types) also know that if they had handled the situation the same as Cheney, they just might be under arrest right now, so "they" will realize that Cheney is getting special treatment, even if he didn't follow the first rules of hunting safety (nor, it seems, did Cheney have the bird hunting stamp as required by TX law). That will not resonate well with the 'common' people who voted for the Bu$h-Cheney ticket who thought they were electing someone 'with a common touch, just like them.' In that sense, it is politics.
It may - only may - open the minds of some of them to start questioning the other illegal activities of this administration in countless other areas where they've so far swallowed the Bu$hCo propaganda, hook, line, and sinker. The NRA and gun lobbyists donate millions of dollars into political campaigns, more to the Republicans than the Democrats....
The "story" (lame as it is) is in the cover-up. The gun-toting NRA types who say they are for gun safety and following the gun and hunting laws will question the cover-up because "they" know they couldn't get by with the same things and be excused for the cover-up.... It will resonate with Republican voters, in particular....
Per NPR..."A pellet has moved close to Whittington's heart..." The pellet has caused inflamation in the heart. Mr. Whittington is back in ICU.
The vice president was informed of Mr. Whittington's condition this morning, but again decided to let someone else bring the news to the public -- this time, the doctors at the hospital.
Neither the president nor the vice president have made any public comments about the shooting...
Edited to add:
An analyst on NPR says that it could be very difficult to remove the pellet, if it is not absorbed by the body. It would be open heart surgery to find the very small pellet...on a 78 yr. old man...
Yeah, I'm sure the guy who got shot in the chest -- not just 'peppered' in the face and neck, it seems -- is just busting a gut and rolling over on the floor doubled up with laughter over this one.
It's not really funny. It's rather disturbing, actually. And whatever laughing we're doing about it is black humor at best -- whistling past the graveyard, as it were.
In our hearts of hearts, we know that this isn't just another yuk -- it's actually serious stuff. And that's why we're still talking about it tonight.
Small pellets. Big problem. And potentially major political sea changes as a result -- not because of the incident itself, but because of the apparent cover-up of the incident.
Gee, like exactly this kind of gratuitous dishonesty has never brought down a high muckety-muck in office before...
I hope the shootee recovers from this but I also hope the shooter doesn't,
Otter
Giving away?
Forget about it. I've been with you in the good days, and I 've kept being in , in the bad days. Which is very important to me, we just share the values, and I'm blue to the marrow of the bones...which means i won't give up until the Dems are back to power.
When Michelle had her scrapbook sent to Kerry, I joked and wrote about La fayette's "Me voila", turning it into ("Je suis toujours là" (I'm still here).
Yes, I'm still here. Cope with me...the bloody French.
I love you so much.
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 04:54 PM
PLEASE stick around and keep giving us your viewpoints and the stories from France and/or the rest of Europe! We need your input!!!
To reiterate what others have said: We need a good laugh at the neoCon's expense....
Also, since Europe and Britain don't have the same problems we do with gun crimes, I think maybe you don't comprehend just how powerful the NRA & gun lobby is in the US. The laugh is also at their expense....
We haven't forgotten that there are at least ten or twenty other major issues that really deserve top billing in headlines.... Really. But there is irony on many levels over the shooting incident, so we're pausing to giggle at the neoCon's expense....
A brief editorial in today's New York Times sums up the real issues here rather well, Andree:
"The vice president appears to have behaved like a teenager who thinks that if he keeps quiet about the wreck, no one will notice that the family car is missing its right door. The administration's communications department has proved that its skills at actually communicating are so rusty it can't get a minor police-blotter story straight. And the White House, in trying to cover up the cover-up, has once again demonstrated that it would rather look inept than open."
it's all about the incompetence,
Otter
Posted by: Ira at February 14, 2006 02:38 PM
Ira, I'm not sure this is what you were saying, but of course they would want them both (Wilson and Plame) out of the way if they were truth tellers.
What is very unfortunate is that Scooter Libby's trial has been scheduled for next October.
I so hope Patrick Fitzgerald is able to rat out the big guys before then, and indict a couple more.
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 05:13 PM
We love you, too, Andrée!!! :-)
Nonny,
You should be here to watch the documentaries we have on guns.
Never, ever forget a thing : we see, watch and know much more on you than you do about us...
We are not that Romantic, post WW2 like country that is shown to you : WE HAVE SOUND NEWS.
I just whisper it : We....were....right...about...the....war...and the mess...but....we...feel...so....bad....for....you
truth what I was talking about is our current problems with Iran's nuclear program and what Cheney has done to undermind a special operation by Ms. Plame by deliberately outing her and jepordizing what she was working on. It goes much much further than disclosing her identity; it sounds like Libby and Cheney may have compromised our national security. Maybe I am reading too much into this story but that is what it sounded like to me when I heard it this morning.
Hackett says on Air America it was the right thing to do to withdraw and that he didn't have the millions necessary for the March primary.in order to do justice to the cause he just didn't have the money to get it done in the next six weeks and that Brown's war chest would have allowed Brown to shape the battlefield, he says.He is not bitter why is Ed? He's not going to run for Congress b/c he gave his word to the other candidates. He is not bitter why should we or Ed Schultz be.
NonnyO,
If you knew what a hell it is to me to follow you in your federal/local fights... I can make only a comparison. it's as if you had to follow politics, about presidential elections, all over Europe. We are only 25, you are 50.
Nevermind. I try to understand.
Last week one of my daughters laughed at me saying : "Mum, I think you're the greatest mainstream political French expert about American politics"
I just read you guys, and it's true I know much more than every average citizen.
BUT NOW I WANT YOU TO WIN.
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 05:28 PM
I totally agree... You and the rest of the world know a LOT more about us than we do about you. I blame an inept educational system. On rare occasions I've met young people who do read more than is required of their teachers, and a few (very few) do know something of other countries and other cultures. They're fun to talk with.
Before I had a computer and found political web sites and blogs, I was listening to news on TV, screaming back at it that the "reasons" for going to war were a pack of LIES. It was all in the LYING body language of The Cretin and the members of his administration. Some of us in the US (me included) did know the whole danged war was a lie and we're still screaming about it. That was even before I figured out how badly Lamestream Media was buying in to the propaganda from the White House and the Pentagon.
Still, it's nice to know people like you from other countries who still have free presses and reliable news empathize with us who knew about the lies all along, even if we were right and no one was listening to us....
Posted by: DiAnne at February 14, 2006 02:21 PM
If those pellets went in deep enough to lodge in or near the heart, this guy isn't anywhere near "out of the woods".
There is always danger of infection, especially in a hospital. Staph infection causes more deaths in hospitals than people realize. It kills thousands upon thousands each year.
If he's too old to make it through surgery, and the pellet or pellets around the heart continue to cause distress, it won't be good.
Hmmm. Wonder what they are going to do? Whichever way it goes, it WON'T be Cheney's fault. The guy got in his way, so they say, or if he passes away from a heart attack it will be "complications from the injury". If he passes
away from surgery it will be "complications from surgery", if he gets staph infection it could be "undisclosed" causes.
Cheney won't bite it for this.
Posted by: Ira at February 14, 2006 05:38 PM
I hope that message from Hackett gets out there because the MSM is framing it as an example of how screwed up the Dems are (and to some degree, they're right, but we don't need any more press or proof of that...).
Example: CNN headline on main page is..."Antiwar candidate blames Dems for his demise" even though the headline on the actual article is " Iraq vet Hackett drops out of Ohio Senate race". And that's just one example (and another reason why I dislike CNN so much...)
let's move on;let's get some good Democrats elected says Hackett.his goal is as a team player to defeat Mike DeWine for the good of the country. what a guy; what a mensch.
Posted by: Andrée - France at February 14, 2006 05:39 PM
Yes, I can imagine that it's a little confusing to try to figure out which issues are local, statewide, and federal in this country. The US is kind of mixed up about a lot of things. Many things are sorted out - eventually. Other things still need to be worked on.
Suffice to say, until this current Criminal Cabal is out of office and their war profiteering fascist corporations with them, not a lot will be accomplished....
"I hope that message from Hackett gets out there because the MSM is framing it as an example of how screwed up the Dems are (and to some degree, they're right, but we don't need any more press or proof of that...). said defarge"
We should let Ed Schultz know to back off. Who does he think he is by helping Mike Dewine. If its OK with Hackett its OK with me. Schultz just savaged a lady who called in b/c she asked that everyone circle around Brown.We don't need Ed to help CNN or the MSM shape Ohio politics and he needs to back off but he keeps running his mouth and dividing Ohio dems.Why? Who's interest does that serve? I love Schultz but I think he is way over the edge today.
Cheney's not leaving that office of his own free will- not ever. He'll have to be removed from the office in shackles if he's arrested over the Valerie Plame affair - neither he nor Georgy will ever admit any wrongdoing by any members of that administration.
And if the man who was shot dies, it'll be just a tragic accident, and the media will cover it that way. Even though, by the way, there was another tragic accident about 40 years or so ago that wasn't reported for several hours afterwards, and the media never let Ted Kennedy's career recover completly after that.
They'll let this one slide, because there was DEFINITELY no sex involved. It's sex that turns the TV Talking heads on, not accidental death.
Posted by: Ira at February 14, 2006 05:33 PM
Ira, and what I am saying is IF Iran was in the works when Plame was outed, they may have gotten a two-fer. IF they didn't want Wilson or Plame around to tell the TRUTH about Iraq OR Iran they effectively got rid of both of them.
IF we legitimately have something to fear from Iran, that is a different story. However, if they are "cooking the books" on Iran like they did Iraq, and Plame was around to finish her work, and Wilson told the truth about Iran too, it could really gum up their plans.
Maybe they wanted her out of the way because of Iran as well as the Iraq-Niger-Uranium story.
O.M.G. That's pretty deep, isn't it? That would make more sense then why they outed her, WOULDN'T IT? They could have just had her transferred though.
At any rate, Wilson told the truth, so he and she and yes Ira, I see what you are saying, our national security paid the price. Just like it does every day.
Nonny,
Do you know where it starts? At school.
You focus on maths and sciences, when we do about, about maths and sciences for sure, but also on history (world wide since 2000 before JC), geography (all over the world), foreign languages ( you start English at 12, for 6 years, the a second language for 4 years...and those willing a 3rd language for 3 years). Which means you don't only have to learn language, but the culture, the history, the mentality...and that's how you undertand foreigners.
On top in France, in last High school year you have to study philosophy, which is nothing but "the art of thinkning". We are taught that nothing is white or black, but that you have many angles to appreciate a topic. That's why you call us sophisticated. In fact, we handle a problem in all its sights...which is not American factual. And that's where we diverted under Bush.
That is not an if truth they lost a million people in a 10 year war with Iraq."IF we legitimately have something to fear from Iran, that is a different story." This is serious stuff and we as Progressives should make our voice heard that we have had it with the Republicans playing politics with our security.It has a lot more implications to this country than being a new wedge issue to win the next election.
On topic,
I tune in to Faux every once in a while mostly just because I'm nosey.
The two main hosts - one is O'Rielly and I don't have the other's name - are so rude to their guests that I find it hard to watch for very long. But it does my heart good lately to watch them working so hard to debunk the truth.
I try to watch the evening news on a different channel each night - I watch the first fifteen minutes to get the spin on the internaional and national news.
You can kind of gauge what they are most nervous about, and find out how they are spinning events.
Alot of people are waking up and seeing they are being lied to, so the spin isn't working on everyone.
Oh the plot thickens...
I read an MSNBC story earlier today that quoted the owner of the ranch, Mrs. Armstrong, who said that the hunters were not really drinking, but may have had a beer or two at lunch that day...
And now, MSNBC has changed the story and has scrubbed the comment....
Here's a thread from DU that discusses it...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x420416
PORT INSECURITY
Homeland Security my ass! Randy Rhodes
Tue Feb 14, 6:00 AM ET
Do the feds really want to place the ports of New York and New Jersey in the hands of a Middle East country with ties to the Sept. 11 hijackers? As The Post reported on Sunday, that's what's about to happen, now that Dubai Ports World has won control - for $6.8 billion - of British-owned Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co.
The purchase gives Dubai Ports control of six U.S. ports - including, in addition to New York-New Jersey, Miami, Baltimore, Philadelphia and New Orleans.
True, the deal reportedly was approved by the top-secret U.S. Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, which decided there was no security risk.
But at a time when security in the ports remains unacceptably lax, we wonder whether this is a wise move.
Dubai Ports, after all, is owned by the United Arab Emirates, whose banking system - considered the commercial center of the Arab world - provided most of the cash for the 9/11 hijackers. Indeed, much of the operational planning for the World Trade Center attacks took place inside the UAE.
And while the Bush folks now consider the UAE a major ally in the war against terror, the Treasury Department has been stonewalled by the emirates, and other Arab countries, in trying to track Osama bin Laden's bank account
The new leader of Dubai, one of the seven small countries that make up the UAE, has said all the right things about fighting radical Islam since 9/11.
But this remains very much an Islamist nation, where preaching any religion other than Islam is prohibited.
New York Sen. Charles Schumer (news, bio, voting record), for one, thinks this is a case where it's better to be safe than sorry.
Noting that the nation's ports "remain top terrorist targets," Schumer rightly argues that "we would not outsource military operations or law-enforcement duties."
Likewise, he says, "we should be very careful before we outsource such sensitive homeland security duties."
The fact is, control of America's ports increasingly is being placed in private - and foreign - hands. And there's no guarantee that today's ally in the War on Terror will remain such tomorrow.
There already is reason enough for concern about security in the ports: Homeland Security officials concede that it is impossible for them to fully inspect all but a tiny percentage of the containers that enter from abroad.
Though no one likes to discuss it publicly, smuggling in weapons of mass destruction likely can most easily be done through the ports.
Supporters of the deal insist that it doesn't give al Qaeda opportunities it doesn't already enjoy. That's no comfort.
Link Here
Andree,
That is a very good explanation of the differences in education, resulting in different outlook. I have seen it firsthand. I have housed several political science students, from UK and France, and know them very well. On top
of that, I've met parents, teachers. It all
fits.
Also, since Europe and Britain don't have the same problems we do with gun crimes, I think maybe you don't comprehend just how powerful the NRA & gun lobby is in the US.
Posted by: NonnyO at February 14, 2006 05:15 PM
I don't know about France, but nearby Germany has something very close to America's gun lobby: the luxury car owner's lobby. The Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche owners are the ones keeping Germany's Autobahns free of speed limits, even though the vehicle fuel consumptions double at 120 mph compared to 60 mph, the forests nearby suffer a lot from increased emissions, and crashes are always deadly.
At least the luxury cars do keep Germans competitive in the global car market. The gun lobby doesn't have such benefits for the US economy or society.
Ira,
Awfully sorry to tell you so, but if US ever drops a bomb over Iran...no one might complain in the western world. Chirac just said the same 1 month ago.
Matter of western thinking?
Or just time to stop the crazy ones?
We are living in such a confusing world. Who would have thoight of that 10 years ago?
I didn't. Did you?
And at the same time how are we protecting, pomoting real democratic voices abroad?
The more I think , the more I fell Ancients were right.
We haven't invented anything.
andree,
Your comments and viewpoints are always welcome. First, discussion, even in disagreement, is quite valuable. If we can not create a message that resonates with you, then we need to rethink our logic or we just need to agree to disagree (politely of course!)
But it ALWAYS helps to hear from you and from others who bring their own opinions and visions to the table. And it's important too.
That said...I have to say that I myself can not understand the 'excitement' and the jokes about this incident. Though if it brings about the resignation of Darth Vadar, then I suppose I'm all for it unless Darth's replacement is much worse!
But as some people here know I've been helping nolies32fouettes with her blog. And we've discussed this issue too. She posted this after ignoring the issue for around 24 hours. Here's the link: http://www.progressiveu.org/160000-cheneys-hunting-accident-a-convenient-distraction-from-other-crimes-and-scandals
I think you can see that she thought this was a distraction as well. But in the end, we all are seeking to make Cheney and Bush and all republicans OR democrats accountable and honest. So different opinions or not, we all have an important viewpoint and we all here try very hard to respect each other and their viewpoints.
Ally,
Guns?
I've never seen once ever once in my life.
Police, Army, game hunters have guns. The rest is prohibited. We cannot carry carry guns or weapons by LAW.
There are very little murders here, compared to the States, and the whole number of prisoners is up to 58 000 nationwide out of a population of 60 million people....and that's a lot to us.
I repeat : I have never seen a gun in my life.
It's something totally alien to our civilization.
We fight with words.
Sure am glad that guy just had "minor injuries".
Chris Matthews is giving it to them pretty bad on "Hardball".
Ralpheh and others,
Please do a little more research before concluding that Sherrod Brown is Republican Lite. If we are fortunate enough to elect him in spite of Ohio votes not being counted, he will make a wonderful senator for all progressives. He does not even accept health insurance from Congress because others do not have it.
He worked tirelessly to defeat CAFTA and would have been successful if the Republicans had not kept the vote open for hours while they strong armed congressmen to vote against it.
One of the possible problems that was seen with his candidacy was that perhaps he was too liberal to be elected in Ohio and that Hackett would appeal more to moderates.
Another thing that many people do not know is that Sherrod steered much financing to Paul Hackett's run against Jean Schmidt. I'm hoping that Hackett will take some time to regroup and come back into politics in the future. In the mean time I hope people won't lose sight of the need to defeat Mike De Wine this election and George Voinovich when his term is over.
Sparrow,
I think that the whole western world is undergoing a crisis of identity.
You are in trouble, so are we. And when people feel threatened, they just go to extremes, except you have only one.
As far as I am concerned I just dread that the exrtreme "rights" (yes, we have 2) will make a high score for the first presidential row. You know of that fascist of Le Pen, but not of traditionalist De Villiers (Count, I mean monsieur le Comte, noble, old ancestry going up to 11th century), they can sway the vote.
You haven't heard of the latest, but he is pure danger.
For the time being , I'm wondering "how can I stop these people" in my country and in the big European mess construction?
The socialists, who are not my friends, are invisible. My own camp, democrat, Gaullist, liberal is leading the way.... under a tremendous attack of the intellectual, left press.
it's a huge mess in the press and voters are geting sick about it. Let's see in 2007.
BTW, in my earlier post, I agreed with Ann about the thread header... change that to ladytechie instead. (I hardly ever agree with Ann on anything...lol...)
Andree.. Face it, you've taken upon yourself a job that's could be likened to learning Chinese. Of all the intrests you could have taken up, American Politics is the most confounding and confusing of
pursuits.
Our politics are messy, and our sense of humor at times verges from the absurd to the sophmoric.
Yes, 3 days after the fact we are still chuckling at the VP, tho if the poor gentleman's conditions worsens we'll quit. It is funny to us because it captures in a picture what most of us knew about this administration.First the sheer incomptence of the shooter and then the coverup. Remember, in our history we'll let leaders get away with an awful lot, just don't lie to us about it. And remember, most if not all of us feel that Cheney and Rove have been pulling the strings all along.
Also, and somewhat on topic with the header, the administration truly offended the press. There is the tradition of "the scoop", and the majors were not happy at being scooped by a paper from a small city in Texas. Just not done. Media in this country can turn on a dime, and as Madame has pointed out this may become the tipping point for the media. If they turn against the administration wholesale, well then... (OK so I'm streching it here.. but there will be a few reporters with a grudge and it might make them a bit sharper eyed.)
Anyway Thanks for putting up with us
Ladytechnie
Our big diference is that we still have a fair press, and that it ramages in all corners.
I'm not going it to explain tonight (for me, hight time to go to bed). I spoke Italian whole day, wrote you in English.and I'm just a poor tired blue French.
Bonne nuit tout le monde!
(God night everyone.
Amen and ditto to what the lady techstress just stated.
Except for the absurd & sophomoric humor part. I don't get that at all.
Love always,
Boogers
The WH press 'corpse' seemed to have their noses out of joint yesterday when they found out Armstrong is the one who reported it to the local paper, but none of the WH press 'corpse' (who were not in Cheney's entourage) were informed first.... (And, BTW, why no press 'corpse' with the VP? Doesn't anyone in the media ever travel with him to his 'undisclosed locations?') Although the Secret Service prevented the local law enforcement personnel from talking to Dead Eye Dick, I've not read where they were when this shooting occurred, but it was obviously not with Dead Eye Dick and the other three in the hunting party....
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Why no Press Corps with the V-P - BECAUSE CHENEY HATES THE PRESS - ESPECIALLU A FREE AND AGGRESSIVE PRESS. Cheney doesn't talk to them. Doesn't allow many interviews (and only on his terms). My guess is that the press couldn't get within two miles of the hunting party due to "national security" and poor marksmanship reasons.
Ralpheh and others,
Please do a little more research before concluding that Sherrod Brown is Republican Lite. If we are fortunate enough to elect him in spite of Ohio votes not being counted, he will make a wonderful senator for all progressives. He does not even accept health insurance from Congress because others do not have it.
He worked tirelessly to defeat CAFTA and would have been successful if the Republicans had not kept the vote open for hours while they strong armed congressmen to vote against it.
One of the possible problems that was seen with his candidacy was that perhaps he was too liberal to be elected in Ohio and that Hackett would appeal more to moderates.
Another thing that many people do not know is that Sherrod steered much financing to Paul Hackett's run against Jean Schmidt. I'm hoping that Hackett will take some time to regroup and come back into politics in the future. In the mean time I hope people won't lose sight of the need to defeat Mike De Wine this election and George Voinovich when his term is over.
Posted by: kay at February 14, 2006 07:31 PM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Regarding Hackett and Ohio:
I was contacted by email by Move On that the Dems had no Senate Candidate in Ohio and the Hackett was considering running, but he had no money. Move On was asking for people to put money into a fund that would be given to Hackett if he decided to run for the Senate.
With regard to Brown - I looked in vain on his website to see his position on the biggest, costliest issue facing the country: the military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. I found NOTHING.
I went to a link where Brown says "we can't cut and run" from Iraq (sounds just like a Republican doesn't it).
I called the Ohio Dem Party - they sounded like broken record; jobs, jobs, jobs. If jobs were THE issue, Bush would have lost in 2004 and the Dems would control at least one house of Congress. The issues in 2004 were, apparently, terrorism/war and family values...
Guns.
When I was a kid, my dad bought a hunting gun at an auction but I didn't know where he kept it & never heard about him buying ammo for it or hunting.
My grandpa kept a shotgun in the closet and I knew where it was. I was always afraid there would be some mistake and it would go off by accident and kill me, so I avoided that room.
I shot a 12 gauge in high school and bruised my arm, knocked off my glasses. I was with boy friends who were rabbit hunting. That is the only time I shot a gun.
Then when I was 17, I met this Black Panther in Mpls (a fellow Shell Oil worker) and he had me carry his handgun in his purse, which I dumbly did (he didn't want to be caught by police with it). Neither my parents nor my aunt & uncle I was staying with knew, and that's the only time I ever carried a gun.
I see guns often, but they're on police. I have also seen snipers on top of buildings when famous politicians visit. I've seen armed military.
I do know a few people who own handguns and I have broken off friendships with people who got them, even if they were taking safety training and claimed they were for defense. One of these friends was once in a mental hospital and has also had a felony conviction for assault.
My brother is a bow hunter but doesn't own a gun, nor does my other brother, nor does my husband.
I did work under s supervisor once who carried a gun, as did her husband, and they were rightwing fundamentalist Christians.
I've heard that 1 in 5 American cars has a gun in it. When I have visitors from other countries, they always wonder which cars have guns and now so do I.
Right now I don't think any of my friends own guns.
I am a peace activist and completely nonviolent. I don't even like to watch violent movies.
My story is probably fairly typical for this part of the country.
I saw military patrolling train stations in France when there was a high alert but I can't remember if they had arms. The police in the UK didn't use to have guns but now I think they do - not the beat cops - only under certain conditions. I think more national police in more countries are armed now, but not so typically regular street cops. Most we've seen in Europe have mace and truncheons. Used to be this way in US too. I think now all our city police are armed.
As for the Cheney story being a distraction - well I must point out that it is potential manslaughter and he has not spoken a word to the press.
As for Hannity, O'Reilly, Malkin, Limbaugh, Coulter and the like - I would not watch them as I consider them to have blood on their hands & to be partially responsible for the 2 bloodless coups in this country, plus tampered races such as that of Max Clelland.
I got two real pieces of news today and by unorthodox means, as though I was living in a former Soviet bloc country or something.
1. by snail mail from an Iranian friend who has no computer (her husband is a patriarchal American guy who likes to keep her quiet) - it was entitled "Ex-CIA official" War was goal from the start" and it summarizes a 4500 word essay by Paul Pillar, the CIA national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia from 2000 to 2005 (see http://www.foreignaffairs.org/2066030faessay85202/paul-4-pillar/intelligence-policy-and-the-war-in-Iraq.html?mode=print)
2. I had to drive to a certain area to be able to pick up Democracy Now with Amy Goodman, to hear a debate between a former Israeli foreign minister and a Jewish professor from University of Chicago - it was the most substantive thing on the Israeli/Palestine conflict that I think I've ever heard. http://www.democracynow.org
It is pathetic that this type of information has to be sought out. It is scary.
nmp..yes it is potentially a crime. Maybe reckless manslaughter or maybe a felony. And that IS bad. However, there are thousands of dead kids because of perjury too.
But your're right--it's still a possible charge against him and that's probably what the delay was about.
3,970 related articles on Google
The story is not going to lay down and die
It's the tip of the iceberg when it comes
to his heinous life.
another reason for delay? (archived before scrub)
http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=msnbcbeer10dn.jpg
ABC news just said that if there is a death involved in the Cheney shooting there will be an inquiry and hearing, per a Texas legal authority.
Actually, the MSM in the form of the Washington Post covered the Paul Pillar story and his upcoming article in the Foreign Affairs journal last Friday, 2-10-2006.
It was a major story above the fold on the front page written by Walter Pincus who has done some other good investigative reporting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/09/AR2006020902418.html
Dwahzon and DiAnne,
Re: the Paul Pillar story.
That is a very damning testimony. Everybody who hasn't read that story SHOULD read it.
I wonder if it will make any difference?
P.S. When I first read that Pillar story, I felt so sad, then I felt sick.
Isn't it funny how your gut and instincts can tell you something before you ever get it confirmed? I KNEW that, but it was never confirmed until now.
How could Colin Powell NOT KNOW this?
God morning, DCPers!
Today brings some truly appalling news (at least, appalling to this teacher and mom of high schools students):
"In an exciting new outreach initiative, the Bureau of Public Affairs produced a high-quality historical video and curriculum package on terrorism for use in high school classrooms around the country. A War Without Borders was designed to give students a brief overview of the history and impact of terrorism and help them understand its relationship to their own lives. Distributed to nearly 13,000 social studies teachers, A War Without Borders reached more American students than any other post-9/11 curriculum package, according to an independent university study. Feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, and many teachers have decided to re-use the package annually. The video is the first in a series created especially for students to help them understand both the complexities and opportunities of the world in the 21st century. US Department of State (2005)
http://www.future.state.gov/educators/lessons/43401.htm
Dana, age 16, just had a field trip to the Dept. of State, where the class was briefed by none other than Karen Hughes. Dana, age 16, was not impressed.
BTW, there is a pdf doc on the State Dept. site that has a timeline of terrorism. The first date listed is 1790, the "Reign of Terror" in France. The next date is 1972, the Munich Olympics. There is no mention of anything that fits their OWN definition of terrorism in between--like the "Trail of Tears", or any of the attacks on MLK, Jr., or what we did in Vietnam (My Lai etc.). Time to break out the Zinn texts in high school...
Dwahzon
The Pillar article was sent to me by my friend FROM a newspaper, but which newspaper was cut off. I sometimes work 12 hour days and may miss something like that. I'm thankful for friends.
& if it was a high-profile story, I sure didn't hear much about it.