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FEAR UP, UP AND AWAY...
And so I get on an airplane in a few minutes and fly to London for a new staging of FEAR UP: Stories from Baghdad and Guantanamo. Marietta and I have reworked it and updated it; we were concerned that in the aftermath of this year's revelations about torture, and the horrific death toll in Iraq, it would seem quaint or too tame.
So we added some new facts, and a couple of scenes. One is a retelling of the Helen Thomas/Scotty McClelland *discussion* about torture; another a scene with an Army interrogator at Guanatanamo.
I will include the scene with the interrogator, which was taken from a first hand account. But I want to say something to all of the DCP readers and commenters and crew members before I go. The PLAY, FEAR UP, came out of true stories, just like the ones we read and post and tell here, every day. There is a Chinese adage that says, "May you live in interesting times." Well, we have been through far more than interesting times over the past years. We have witnessed and fought against the most terrible of regimes, and we have stood up for brave good people who speak truth to power.
So it is, in the end, the stories we tell each other that make the difference; that reveal who each of us is, at heart. And it is the stories we tell that teach others how it is, and show us into the hearts of others.
As I travel over the next few days, I carry each of you and your stories with me. They are important and they are the fabric of our beings and of these harsh times. Please keep telling them. They are lights in the darkness, and the antidote to fear.
Elise Alper and Maboud E. tell the stories in the original production of FEAR UP
EXCERPT: (copyright DCP, but available to all)
Reporter: In November, 2005 I spoke with a US Army Interrogator Specialist at Abu Ghraib.
ARMY INTERROGATOR: We were using dogs in the Mosul detention facility which was at the Mosul airport. We would put the prisoner in a shipping container. We would keep him up all night with music and strobe lights, stress positions, and then we would bring in dogs. The prisoner was blindfolded, so he didn't really understand what was going on, but we had the dog controlled. He was being held by a military police dog handler on a leash, and the dog was muzzled, so he couldn't hurt the prisoner. That was the only time I ever saw dogs used in Iraq.
REPORTER: Did the prisoner know that there was a muzzle on the dog?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: No, because he was blindfolded. So, the dog would be barking and jumping on the prisoner, and the prisoner wouldn't really understand what was going on.
REPORTER: What did you think of this practice you were engaging in?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: I was sort of pushing to back away from the harsh tactics, but at the same time I was-- in a way, I sort of wanted to push, because we were frustrated by, you know, not getting intel. I don't know why. So, I was on both sides of the fence. I don't know. You know part of the problem back then too, is that I was still under the impression that we were getting prisoners who had intel -- who had intel to give us, and you know, I still thought that these were bad guys.
I knew that we were really walking the line, and I was going through the interrogation rules of engagement, that was given to me by the unit that we were working with up there, trying to figure out what was legal and what wasn’t legal. According to this interrogation rules of engagement, that was legal. So, when they ordered me to do it, I had to do it. You know, as far as whether, you know, I thought it was a good interrogation practice, I didn’t think so at all, actually. We never produced any intelligence.
I did more than 300 interrogations in Iraq, and I'm guessing like 20 people, I got any like real intel out of. And when I did, it was when I would sort of form a rapport with the person and get them to trust me. Nothing ever came out of the harsh interrogation sessions.
REPORTER: Did you ever call for a stop to this, or ask to speak to a higher up?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: I did all the time. You know, at that point, I was like so pissed at the military for what they were doing, you know. And you know, I was yelling at the chief warrant officer marine who was in charge of the defense facility.
In Abu Ghraib, I filed two reports, and now the C.I.D. Criminal Investigations Division is saying they don’t have any reports from me. So I re-filed all of these sworn statements.
REPORTER: Are they being investigated now?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: I don't know. They wouldn't really tell me about that. I don't know. My guess is no, since they didn't do it before.
REPORTER: How high up do you feel it goes?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: Well, it obviously goes right up to the Pentagon, because they were issuing the interrogation rules of engagement, and the interrogation rules of engagement are not in accordance with the army field manual and not in accordance with the Geneva conventions. So, it's all the way up. You know, obviously, Lindsey England and Grainer, these guys -- you know, they needed to be punished, but it's not just them. It's -- it should have gone all the way up the chain.
I think that using torture is the worst possible thing we could do. You cannot win a war against terrorism with bombs and force. It doesn't work. You have to win hearts and minds and we're really failing. You know, using torture is absolutely the wrong way to go. And we're not getting any intel out of it, either. Like how many people did we get intel out of in Guantanamo? You know, a small handful, and in Abu Ghraib also. I didn't work there for that long, but many of my friends did they worked there all of 2004, and they told me, they got nothing. They got no intel out of that place.
REPORTER: And to someone who is in Iraq right now, what would you say to them, and what would you say to Iraqis?
ARMY INTERROGATOR: Well, I'd like to apologize to Iraq honestly, because I think we have done so many things wrong over there. I think the military guys wanted to go over there and really liberate Iraq, and we have just really screwed it up. So, that's terrible, but to the military guys in Iraq, I would say, follow your conscience, and don't do what everybody else is doing just because it seems like that's the right thing to do. It's not.
*****
A special shout out to my fellow artists/wild women, Fe and Vicky, who were so much a part of the original piece.
safe trip~
Karen,
I'm so happy for you and Marietta that your play has traveled across the ocean.
...here's hoping you have a safe journey and don't take this wrong but...break a leg! (Well, you know what I mean!)
Karen,
Your words are so true - it's the real stories from the mouths and hearts of real people that make the difference. You are making a real difference with FEAR UP. thanks you for sharing it with us, and the world!
Safe travels, and break a leg!
Biden explained, most people’s minds are made up. Dwelling on defeat gives the other side propaganda points. “Ninety-five percent of the American people have formed their view [on Iraq]. Some are hoping against hope it can be pulled out [from disaster]. Others are convinced it is gone.” Given the skill with which this administration turned doubts about war against the Democrats in the last two elections, Biden says he doesn’t want to give Bush and Karl Rove an opening to say, “but for those Democrats, we could have done it.” He gets asked all the time why Democrats are afraid to just stand up and say we’ve lost in Iraq. “Because Bush lost,” says Biden. “This is Bush’s war, beginning, middle and end.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12206700/site/newsweek/page/2/
Bush: Democrats' leader sunk immigration bill
'I call on the Senate minority leader to end his blocking tactics'
Saturday, April 8, 2006; Posted: 10:19 a.m. EDT (14:19 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush blamed Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid on Saturday for the potentially fatal blow dealt to compromise immigration legislation.
The landmark bill, which would offer eventual citizenship to millions of illegal immigrants, fell victim Friday to internal disputes in both parties.
But Bush -- echoing earlier complaints from Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tennessee -- sought to place all the blame on Reid, D-Nevada, who refused to permit votes on more than three Republican-backed amendments.
"I call on the Senate minority leader to end his blocking tactics and allow the Senate to do its work and pass a fair, effective immigration reform bill," Bush said in his weekly radio address.
Hailed as a bipartisan breakthrough earlier in the week, the immigration measure would have provided for stronger border security, regulated the future entry of foreign workers and created a complex new set of regulations for the estimated 11 million immigrants in the country illegally.
Officials said an estimated 9 million of them, those who could show they had been in the United States for more than two years, would eventually become eligible for citizenship under the proposal.
Faced with a major setback only months before much of the Republican-controlled Congress is up for re-election, Bush sought to give life to the issue. Speaking mostly to conservatives in his party, he said border security must be improved and enforcement within the United States needs to be enhanced.
But in a nod to business leaders who support temporary worker programs that would ensure an easy supply of low-cost labor, he spoke passionately about the need to put out the welcome mat for those from other countries.
"Immigration is an emotional issue and a vitally important one," Bush said. "At its core, immigration is the sign of a confident and successful nation."
more...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/08/Bush.radio.ap/index.html
Posted by: monkey at April 8, 2006 11:25 AM
Biden was on Bill Maher's "Real Time" show last night and announced he's definitely running for President in '08. No surprise.
But actually, he did quite well on the show and made some good points, including:
- he claims that this administration is already pulling out of Iraq. They "have a plan on how not to lose, but no plan to win."
- in a discussion about whether Bush prays, Biden talked about his conversations with George where Biden has questioned George's decisions. The RW talking head (Bill Sammon) said that Bush prays about his decisions. Biden: "Bush makes his decisions based on his instincts and prays that he's right..."
- about religion, Biden also said, "Republicans use prayer as a political operation tool, not as a road to redemption..."
Posted by: monkey at April 8, 2006 11:27 AM
Time magazine has a good explanation of why Reid changed his mind at the last minute about the immigration bill...
In retrospect, however, it may have been too perfect. After initially signing on, Reid decided he might be walking into a trap. Some Republicans wanted to vote on amendments that Reid believed would have essentially picked apart the compromise plan; under one of them, for instance, the Department of Homeland Security would have had to certify that the border was secure before any illegal immigrants could be made legal.
What's more, even if he could defeat the amendments, any bill the Senate passed would have to go into a conference committee with the House — which wants to build a wall along much of the U.S.-Mexico border, criminalize all illegal immigrants in the U.S., and dramatically increase the penalties against those who help them, from businesses to churches. Looking several moves ahead in a game of legislative chess, Reid feared that the conference would produce something that looked more like the House bill, which currently has no amnesty provisions for making current illegals citizens, than the Senate version.
Granted, when such a watered down bill came back to the Senate, Reid could still block it by filibustering. But in a election year, Reid knew that could be political suicide, forcing fellow Democrats to vote against a bill Republicans would portray as securing America's broken borders. Those Democrats who were around in the last mid-term election are still smarting from the votes they cast against the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, an issue Republicans cashed in handily at the polls. Giving Frist another National Security vote to beat the Democrats with, they feared, was a sure fire way to let Republicans maintain control of the Senate this fall.
Reid had tried to get some kind of guarantee from Frist that Republican Senators would support only the Senate version in conference, and over the last 24 hours, Sen. John McCain worked to sign colleagues on for just such an assurance. Frist's chief of staff, Eric Ueland, tried to be reassuring. “The Senate will defend the Senate position,” he said. But Reid wanted more than that. “We have no safety net here,” says a top Reid aide, “The Republicans have the President, the Senate and the House.” In negotiations that lasted all night, Reid's staff insisted on a say in the make-up of the conference committee, but Frist wouldn't budge. “No majority leader is going to sign away the power of the office or turn a weaker majority leader's gavel over to his successors,” Ueland said Friday.
In the end, Reid chose the only other way to avoid the potential trap, which was to walk away from the deal.Yet that deal is not completely dead. Specter vowed Friday that he would take the compromise up in committee first thing on his return to Washington and would send it to the Senate floor a week later.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1181547,00.html?cnn=yes
One more thing about Biden on Bill Maher last night...
He gave a very rational explanation of the situation in the Middle East and while he agreed with Kerry's plan for withdrawal, he did say that Kerry's plan has no plan for keeping the area from a regional civil war. He made the strong point that Bush needs to get his butt over the Middle East to hold conferences with all the leaders of all the countries there to explain how it's in their best interest not to enter into regional civil war & why & what they need to do to prevent total chaos.
Of course we know why that isn't happening... Bush & Co. is incapable of conducting such intelligent conferences. We've GOT to get foreign policy experts over there -- regardless of their party affiliation.
But this regime won't trust anyone but their incompetent cronies...
Kerry/Biden 2008
Bon Voyage Karen!
Fear
NSA Spying in Secret Rooms
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/1,70619-0.html (for complete article)
AT&T provided National Security Agency eavesdroppers with full access to its customers' phone calls, and shunted its customers' internet traffic to data-mining equipment installed in a secret room in its San Francisco switching center…That class action lawsuit, filed in federal court in San Francisco last January, alleges that AT&T violated federal and state laws by surreptitiously allowing the government to monitor phone and internet communications of AT&T customers without warrants….According to a statement released by Klein's attorney, an NSA agent showed up at the San Francisco switching center in 2002 to interview a management-level technician for a special job. In January 2003, Klein observed a new room being built adjacent to the room housing AT&T's #4ESS switching equipment, which is responsible for routing long distance and international calls.
"I learned that the person whom the NSA interviewed for the secret job was the person working to install equipment in this room," Klein wrote. "The regular technician work force was not allowed in the room."
Klein's job eventually included connecting internet circuits to a splitting cabinet that led to the secret room. During the course of that work, he learned from a co-worker that similar cabinets were being installed in other cities, including Seattle, San Jose, Los Angeles and San Diego.
Kerry Steps Up...Who Will Respond?
by Tom Hayden
Sen. John Kerry's call for a withdrawal from Iraq, published last Sunday in the New York Times, is the strongest anti-war stand yet taken by a national Democratic leader. The anti-war movement should strongly demand that other elected officials support Kerry's position, and that of Rep. John Murtha in the House, if only to show that there is a public constituency for the politics of peace.
If Kerry, the 2004 nominee, can be isolated in his own party for favoring withdrawal, it will reveal the fatal decline of progressive Democratic politics and perhaps set the stage for the coming presidential primaries, with Kerry either as a conscience or a candidate. The same has happened with Sen. Russ Feingold, a more likely candidate at this point. Feingold's more cautious and conditional call for setting a deadline for withdrawal has gone nowhere among Senate Democrats, nor has his resolution censuring the President received much Senate support beyond Tom Harkin and Barbara Boxer.
--snip--
Having taken his stand, Kerry must not backtrack, though insider pressure will be intense. Nor can he expect a friendly welcome from those who expected more in 2004. But if he stays the course, he can change the American debate and once again play a leading role in a turn toward peace. If he really fights for what he believes, he might - might - become a hero. Those of us in the cheap seats can only wonder, what is there to lose?
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/9998
Tax filing advice from Bill Maher...
"Just make your IRS check out to Halliburton..."
"File a joint return: send them a joint with a note 'If you think I'm paying for this war, you must be high...'"
The Katrina President
Maybe it is good the lame duck can be shown to have had an unprecedentedly lame legacy.
FOCUS | Kerry Sharply Criticizes Bush on Several Fronts
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806Y.shtml
Senator John Kerry made a slashing attack on the Bush administration yesterday, comparing it to the faltering government in Iraq and equating its war strategy with its planning for Hurricane Katrina, while also invoking Jesus as he criticized federal Medicaid policy.
This one is from (blush) Newsmax:
John Kerry Roughing it with Butler
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/4/8/110617.shtml
They pointedly use the word "manservant" and make little sillyjokes about the "Born to Be Wild" Senator, with references to Easy Rider.
Never mind that W couldn't ride a Segway, is afraid of horses, choked on a pretzel and has had numerous bicycle accidents and has a VP that can't shoot straight at a canned hunt.
If Newsmax wasn't so pathetic, it'd be almost amusing.
Inside Cover Stories
Feds Go For Gold In Suspects' Teeth
CNN Flub: Bush Authorized Plame Leak
Russians Consider Burying Lenin
Hugo Chavez Supporters Attack U.S. Envoy
Congress 'Sprints' To Another Vacation
Colo. School Lifts Patriotic Clothing Ban
This is "news" to W's base.
From one of my favorite, timeless books:
"Yyouu hhave ssaidd itt!" Mrs. Which's voice rang out. "Itt iss Eevill. Itt iss thee Ppowers of Ddarrkkness!"
"But what's going to happen?" Meg's voice trembled. "Oh, please, Mrs. Which, tell us what's going to happen!"
"Wee wwill cconnttinnue tto ffightt!"
Something in Mrs. Which's voice made all three of the children stand straighter, throwing back their shoulders with determination, looking at the glimmer that was Mrs. Which with pride and confidence.
"And we're not alone, you know, children," came Mrs. Whatsit, the comforter. "All through the universe it's being fought, all the cosmos, and my, but it's a grand and exciting battle. I know it's hard for you to understand about size, how there's very little difference in the size of the tiniest microbe and the greatest galaxy. You think about that, and maybe it won't seem strange to you that some of our very best fighters have come right from your own planet, and it's a *little* planet, dears, out on the edge of a little galaxy. You can be proud that it was done so well."
"Who have our fighters been?" Calvin asked.
"Oh, *you* must know them, dear," Mrs. Whatsit said.
Mrs. Who's spectacles shone out at them triumphantly. "'And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.'"
"Jesus!" Charles Wallace said. "Why of course, Jesus!"
"Of course!" Mrs. Whatsit said. "Go on, Charles, love. There were others. All your great artists. They've been lights for us to see by."
"Leonardo da Vinci?" Calvin suggested tentatively. "And Michaelangelo?"
"And Shakespeare," Charles Wallace called out, "and Bach! And Pasteur and Madame Curie and Einstein!"
Now Calvin's voice rang with confidence. "And Schweitzer and Gandhi and Buddha and Beethoven and Rembrandt and St. Francis!"
*********(c) 1962 Madeleine L'Engle**********
Thank you Karen, all, for being our lights that shine in the darkness, our fighters. Safe travels.
where doesn't matter......
ah Veritas-great book,great series,great author
I hate to interrupt any wishful thinking... But.
Yall do realize if Kerry becomes the Dem nominee you will fracture the democratic party almost perfectly in half?
You know in a way I almost want to dare you to do it. Ok triple dog dare you too. Why would I want to see yall split the base in a choice like that?
Well because all the disillussioned party dems that break away will not find ANY option in becoming repell so they will swell the ranks of the Libertarians and Green parties and that would be just perfect to do away with this two party crap forever. What a wonderful world it would be.
If Kerry becomes the nominee... You will never again achive the numbers and mass of party loyal dems again.
I say it will split almost perfectly in half, give or take 5 %. Anyone wanna bet a taco on it?
Veritas
Goddess of truth.
So, when you become president, how do you feel about cronyisim, and does it help to have this discussion under the influence of a Buttery Nipple? Or two...?
My specialty is story poetry.. As your Laureate I would make you the most dashing romantic figure since Lochinvar.
christy-same as if they put up Hillary
MKH
Actually I think hillary would cause a 2/3rds split with only one third leaving.
Hillary has more of a...competance factor... that would sooth major doubters, it would still cause a hemmorage, just not as gaping of a wound.
I would be one of the 1/3rd myself. I like Hillary, same as I do Kerry, but Im holding out for hero.
At this rate I'll be a Libertarian by winter.
christy-
not that there is anything wrong with that....
OMFG! GO LOOK AT RAWSTORY!!
Breaking now
ITALIANS FORGED NIGER DOCUMENTS, PAPER TO REPORT
The header just changed wtf
NIGERIAN EMBASSY FORGED NIGER DOCUMENTS, PAPER TO REPORT...
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."
James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)
Veritas
That book defined my childhood!
Re NewsMax
I signed up to "spy" during the election season, then unsubscribed. They have hunted me down again & now I'm enjoying them. They say H Clinton and J Kerry undermined Mitt Romney's 2008 Presidential aspirations by agreeing with his health plan. NewsMax is bummed. Sounds smart to me!
Christy
Libertarian is not necessarily bad as they are a broad mix.
Please don't call H Clinton "Hillary" as that is the NewsMax word for her. LOL It must be nice to have scare power with both parties, just with a name. Wooooooo!! As for who will take the nomination, it will depend on who is running for both parties and what events are happening on the ground then.
I will bet you a bunch of tacos that two people could end up running that most of us have never heard of. I think 2006 mid-term elections will also determine whether any Dem has a chance or whether anything else can be changed.
all the disillussioned party dems that break away will not find ANY option in becoming repell so they will swell the ranks of the Libertarians and Green parties - Christy
No way - some will - some would become Republicans, thinking Kerry (or even Clinton) too liberal.
Anyway, there are more Independents than anything.
Libertarians and Greens will remain fringe parties in America as will Socialists - we have a shrinking labor movement and erosion of personal rights and liberty. As Barbara Ehrenreich says, we can't do like the French and go in the streets when our job security laws are challenged because we already don't have job security! In US, you can be fired for "bad attitude." Or we have to keep our jobs or have zero health care, in many cases.
That does not foster an atmostphere of rebellion in the United States. On a global level, if globalization is taken to an extreme, Ehrenreich also maintains that the corporations would go for the cheapest labor they could get. Since there would be no labor shortage, pay just above subsistence could be standard. Most Libertarians care nothing about that. Every man for himself, for them.
Hey cool! Everything is not secret? Who knew?
9/11 Victims' Families to Get Government Files
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806X.shtml
The judge overseeing the death penalty trial of Zacarias Moussaoui yesterday ordered prosecutors to provide hundreds of thousands of government documents generated as evidence in the case to lawyers representing families of victims of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
...so they will swell the ranks of the Libertarians and Green parties and that would be just perfect to do away with this two party crap forever.
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 01:36 PM
So then in just a few years, they can be as corrupt and full of crap as the rest of them. It's the system that's broken... replacing dominant party's with party's of emerging dominance will eventually lead to the same thing until Joe Citizen starts giving a damn and start paying attention on a fulltime basis.
Now THAT would be a wonderful world.
(CBS/AP) North Korea's defense minister warned Saturday that a pre-emptive strike is not the monopoly of the United States, in comments carried by the North's official news agency.
"We will never sit with arms folded and watch until the U.S. attacks us," said Kim Il Chol, vice marshal of the North's Korean People's Army, according to the official Korean Central News Agency. "A pre-emptive strike is not the monopoly of the U.S.," he said.
The warning, which is not new, came as North Korea's top nuclear envoy was in Japan for a security conference that also is drawing his counterparts from the U.S. and other participants in six-nation talks on the North's nuclear program.
The privately sponsored forum, set for next week, comes as the North continues to boycott the talks over U.S. financial restrictions imposed for its alleged currency counterfeiting and other illicit activities.
"Now, the U.S. talks about six-party talks, but in reality, it has no interest in the talks and ... is seeking a chance to attack while putting us on its pre-emptive strike list," the North's defense minister said.
"If they ultimately ignite a fire to the fuse of aggression war, ... our army and people will mercilessly destroy the enemy," he said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/08/world/main1482951.shtml
Keep making friends with your brilliance, Dubass.
Diane, I think being a libertarian or being Green will honestly become the next political 'in' thing. The indys will swell too, but I think the time has come for the Green and Lib. parties. People are aware now, and completely disillusioned, but they still will gravitate towards already familiar structures on the political scene.
It will be a cool fad the democrats will never be able to stop the swing of unless they unite the base with an Edwards or a Obama, before the split can occur.
Monkey..
Yes, they will become corrupt and as full of crap as anyone else BUT until then our rigged elections would suddenly be priority numero uno.
There is no way in hell a 4 party system can be rigged easily or without notice.
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 01:36 PM
Christy,
I'll bet you that taco. You're on, girl!
Look at the people who got behind Kerry and the party in '04. Yes, people say their disappointed, etc. Could even one of them have done better? Why don't they run, then?
I think if the climate is as bad in '08 as it is right now, Kerry could win with plenty of points to spare. That is, if all the votes are authentic and count.
You are on Truth.
You know, just for the record. I like my tacos without sour cream.
Kerry is a good man, but this party is at a critical time and we need someone who resembles Bobby Kennedy (without the affairs) as closely as possible. Young, handsome, poetic, bold as hell and brave like a lion.
I hope the party does not fracture, but its hard to see it vigorously united by any of the old guard.
Christy
That is a good point that the Greens and Libertarians would make the rigged elections a priority.
I also think the Democratic party needs restructuring from the ground up, at each state level, a 50 state emphasis, more involvement at the grassroots flowing up, less top-down with paid consultants, and we need unity. What is good for one state is not necessarily good for another, but we need common values. I think some risks can be taken, as we have nothing to lose.
let's have a taco party. I don't like sour cream either but I like lots of olives.
Assuming we laid the aforementioned groundwork and had a message that speaks to enough people that they will come to us rather than we going to them, it would be time to worry about which candidate would run. We need a message and a brand. We need to talk about our values moreso than our issues.
On a global level, if globalization is taken to an extreme, Ehrenreich also maintains that the corporations would go for the cheapest labor they could get. Since there would be no labor shortage, pay just above subsistence could be standard. Most Libertarians care nothing about that. Every man for himself, for them.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 02:55 PM
In alot of places, let's just take NV and ND as two examples that I know of firsthand, because there is currently no labor shortage, pay is just BELOW subsistence. Especially in NV. It is a big reason I got on the bandwagon. It is one thing to work the working class to the bone and give them enough to exist. Quite another to work them that relentlessly and not even give them enough to exist on, even if both adults in the household (in a marriage-partnership, or co-op situation) work full time. It is already happening, on a large scale. Children still go hungry in working families, with both parents doing everything they can. It happens more than we realize. The family oftentimes also has no health care.
I know a Libertarian who is very much "every man for himself". That's great in one aspect: Everyone must take accountability, everyone must be responsible and pull his own weight. Where and when it doesn't work is when circumstances don't allow people equal opportunity.
A value is something like fairness, quality of life.
An issue is something like gay rights, the environment, health coverage - it fits into the values but we need to hammer away at the values, not focus on the issues. We also need more union members, more small donors, more people insisting the media cover facts not propaganda, more education on AND OFF the internet, more training institutes, more think tanks, more clean systems for voting and campaign organization.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
Heh, heh, Christy.
I like my tacos with kidney beans in the meat sauce ~ and with green taco sauce.
I think Kerry could take it. He almost did it last time.
When the time comes, we will know who the best candidate is... I'm sure Kerry himself wouldn't run if he didn't think he could take it home. We will see!
(Corn tortillas, a little crispy.)
Dianne,
I tried saying it all along, unite the base under the only single banner they will all willingly unite under, Civil Rights. It is the only issue.
As far as focusing on grassroots, Dean is doing a good job with his 50 state thing but there needs to be a deliberate and concentrated effort focused on almost exclusively 3 states, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. Technically known as 'the deep south'. Stategically it is located in the very heart of the nation.
If you do not come down here and hand them hope they will never find it. It never has been found yet. The election rigging is most prevelant and historically repetative in the deep south. Come here and teach them how to stand up in the face of VICIOUS opposition.
Come here and bring a civil rights banner as big as you can get because your numbers will swell by the hour.
But if you do not reach out for them, they will never embrace you, and you will loose the very heart of this nation forever.
Truth Shall Prevail
I asked my son the differences between Libertarians and Republicans. He said Libertarians like to smoke pot but both don't care about poor people. LOL There are some good Libertarian positions that mesh with Liberal/Progressive though, such as focus on civil liberties, skepticism about the Patriot Act, and general desire to keep government out of our personal business. But Liberal/Progressive position advocates much more for the common good, such as a subsistence wage or above, availability of health care.
I hear what you're saying about working families that aren't making it. My brother in Colo. and his wife lost their bakery and still owe the IRS thousands. They tried to keep their employees going but couldn't keep up in the lean winter months when tourism was down, despite a good product and service. They had to refinance 3x and go into debt. Now, with two small children, they have no health insurance. He freelances as a stagehand and builder's helper, she freelances as a caterer and landscaper. I don't know how they do it. There are many people like that in this country. Both have college degrees, by the way, but there aren't many jobs in the area for them and those like that they've had have been for companies that then left the area (such as a publishing company).
Christy
I would really like to see that happen - civil rights, those 3 states. It is timely. Now is the time, in the wake of the Katrina President. I noticed there was a big march with Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and I had to read about it on local newspaper sites. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see much MSM coverage.
Christy,
By the way, can you keep us posted about what's happening with the vote down there? I mean with the Katrina evacuees all over the place & all. Is it just mass corruption & who is working to assure the rights? The issue of civil rights could go under the general value of fairness. What American with a conscience could argue with fairness, justice?!
Christy,
Do you like Obama? Has he proven himself, is what I wonder.
As one who knows it well, you can tell us of the despair in the deep south. I think it had been a well hidden secret from many until the Katrina disaster. It comes through loud and clear as you tell about it. And, you could very well have very good reasons why you think a younger, stronger, and louder voice would work in '08. I don't minimize or trivialize what you are saying.
My biggest sorrow is that I didn't even know this existed today in the deep South until I saw it with my own eyes.
DiAnne,
We see alot of people where I currently reside working 40 hour weeks at $6.00 an hour with no benefits. And they are glad to have that opportunity if and when it comes up.
Health care is one of the biggest crisis we have currently. And neither major party has resolved the problem. Oh, nevermind, you can all come up and see me after I get moved to Canada.
Anyone heard from OnToVictoryforDems? And Amy?
OTVFD was busy helping after Katrina, but haven't seen her since.
The word is the sattelite voting booths will not be used because forcing them onto absentee ballots or mail in ballots is easier to rig.
At this point no one in the south ever believes any election is 'fair'. We all know the corruption is so deep it is not a matter of 'if' it is rigged, it is simply assumed BY EVERYONE that it is.
That is really really what it is like here. The voters show up so they have a right to bitch but aint nothing going to change. We all KNOW they are rigged.
HOW is it possible we ALL know it but NOTHING can be done?
Something can be done but it will take a deep and strong courage and an uncorruptable vision. Not to mention a million or two people marching. This is the deep south after all, and they will shoot you for it, but I doubt they can kill all of us.
Christy
The heck of it is - a Texan who moved up here and who has been a Democrat in Georgia and Texas for years told us that the corruption in voting that has been prevalent in the south by Republicans has now travelled all over the place.
We sure have it up here now. They do things like send notices to people that a sex offender is moving in next door to them (fake) and that their candidate can fix the problem. That is one of many examples.
I have tried to tell you of the despair in the deep south, but strangely enough when I say things like, I literally read the Declaration of the Independance by latern light because my family was too poor to afford electrricity for years, most people, I do not know why, automatically believe it is somehow a METAPHORE.
I mean they say, the poorest of the poor in the poorest state of the nation, but does ANYONE really want to try to visualize that person?
I am that person. There are millions more just like me. I am a United States Citizen, and I know how very painful it is to go hungry. I also know that to this day I feel guilty every time I eat. I know somewhere, somewhere close to me, there is children just like I was, and I can not do a damn thing for them because I must choose between myself and my own, or them.
That is how you live in the deep south. You survive.
I watched my father go insane, very slowly, because we could not afford his thyroid medicine. Have you ever seen your mother beaten for lying to your father about buying a loaf of bread? Dispair? It is beyond that. It has been for a very long time.
And do remember, I am describing childhood in Louisiana 20 years BEFORE Katrina.
The only thing that has changed is that the worst apparently can get more horrible.
Christy
Here's a transcript of the phone message that’s been going around Washington State not long ago (then they send a form to help you register with them) - they like to send these to old people and others they know damn well are properly registered:
“This is the Republican National Committee with an important alert. Our records show that you may not be properly registered to vote in your district. These elections are very important.
You have the opportunity to vote for Republicans who will stand up for your values or liberals who will fight for their own special interests.
Please take a moment to look into whether or not you are properly registered to vote, and if you are not, please take the time to fill out the form and send it in.”
Christy
I lived in a 10 x 50 trailer, my dad had post- traumatic stress, we lived on US government commodities but I didn't think I was poor because the richest person in town had a $10,000 house.
South Dakota
They produced George McGovern but they vote against themselves most of the time.
He made the strong point that Bush needs to get his butt over the Middle East to hold conferences with all the leaders of all the countries there to explain how it's in their best interest not to enter into regional civil war & why & what they need to do to prevent total chaos.
Posted by: madame defarge at April 8, 2006 11:45 AM
Only one of the things that scares me with Biden is, shouldn't he KNOW that Bush hasn't the where-with-all to "get his butt over to the Middle East and tell them that a civil war isn't in their best interests?" Also, who says they will listen to "anybody"? This conflict has been going on for ages. There has never been a democracy in Iraq.
As we read atop the thread, it was a gutsy move for Kerry to propose his withdrawal plan. And risky. I hope it serves us all well in the end.
I think it will.
Christy
I can laugh about this now but we ate better when my dad had a nervous breakdown and became a garbage man than when he was a teacher.
He'd meet the milk man and bread man away from the store and they'd give him expired milk and bread, which we'd freeze for later. Then he'd get the produce that was bruised and we'd make "garbage salad." We ate like kings!!
I always carried a salt shaker in my pocket so I could raid gardens for carrots & tomatoes, so I don't really remember being very hungry.
I never went for government Spam but the canned turkey wasn't bad. Never liked peanut butter but was really into corned bread with syrup. Actually, the Spam wasn't too bad if you fried it.
My mother recently sent me a letter telling where things were in case she died. She has a couple of bank accounts and a little jewelry. The letter ended, "P.S. There is a 100 pound bag of potatoes under the house." She wouldn't want them to go to waste.
Truth Shall Prevail
The only thing I can figure out is that Kerry and Biden are talking about what Bush should do, knowing he'll not do it & they'll turn out to be right. OR he will actually try to follow their advice (but not admit it), as he has already tried to do several times, since he has no idea what to do.
All this talk of food is making me hungry. I'm off to the bakery to see if my son will give me a free meal.
Dianne,
My point was this, the problem has existed for a long time, that anyone goes hungry in this nation is appalling.
We could honestly change it all if we settled for nothing less than a leader who WILL do so.
I personally am sick of leaders who talk talk talk and never actually solve the damn problem. Lots of people here are. A civil rights movement would bring a golden age to the deep south.
It can not happen soon enough for all of those who are hungry here right now.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/08/world/main1482951.shtml
Keep making friends with your brilliance, Dubass.
Posted by: monkey at April 8, 2006 03:26 PM
"Six-nation talks have been stalled since November over a dispute surrounding financial restrictions the United States imposed on North Korea for its alleged currency counterfeiting and money laundering. Those talks involve the two Koreas, the United States, China, Japan and Russia."
The last paragraph is what registered in my brain, in light of the Iranian Oil Bourse that was scheduled to open in March, but the last story I read on it was that the Iranian Oil Bourse opening has been delayed until fall. Besides controlling the oil reserves, it's about the money. After Nixon took us off the gold standard, we can print paper currency as fast as the printers can work and glut the market with US dollars. But if the Iranian Oil Bourse and other countries start trading in Euros (which has a higher value than US dollars), the US stands to lose a lot of money - and a lot of power because of lack of money (and our increasing debt because of DumDum's war and tax cuts to the rich and the corporations). The oil corporations stand to lose the most. Exxon-Mobil just made #1 on the Fortune 500 list for record profits in 2005, topping Wal-Mart - it was just in the news this week (I heard it on in-state news). Then, of course, there's the 'little' matter of foreign countries loaning us money to keep our own governmnet running (and 'what if' they call in their loans?)....
In addition to not sitting down and talking with Korea, DumDum, et al., refuse to talk with Iranian officials - I posted a link to the story on the last thread. Can you imagine Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee's frustration in not being able to invade more innocent countries without enough military personnel to actually do any fighting, since so few people are volunteering to serve in the military? All Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee have is proposals to build more bombs which, in turn, prompts leaders of other countries to say the US is a 'threat' and talk about 'pre-emptive' strikes, exactly like DumDum did with his illegal Iraq invasion....
The Cretin's entire "foreign policy" is a course on How to Gain Enemies and Start Wars That Profit Corporations Headed by Bu$h-Cheney Friends 101.... With "leaders" like that, who needs to go in search of any imaginary enemies??? They're making enemies left and right, and I sometimes think the only reason no one's attacked us in a Bu$h-style pre-emptive strike is because they know that more than half of the people of this nation detest them and their administration, and they have pity and compassion for the people of this nation, even as they detest our "leaders" (and know the elections were rigged, even more than we do since there's so rarely any info in Lamestream Media about the stolen elections). They're waiting as patiently as we are for the inept duo and their administration to be out of power by Jan. '09.... I'm grateful for their patience, and just wish our Clueless Congress would grow spines and kick them out of office....
Christy,
I didn't know it was so rough down there. I am sorry you have had to go through all that you have.
It sounds like you are the same age as my children. I raised them during the 80's and for a time I was a single parent. I was up and on the job at 5:15 a.m. every morning and didn't get home many days until 5:00 p.m. The good thing was that we somehow managed to keep afloat without assistance, and we had plenty to eat, and my kids got to take part in some extra curricular activities. But, we had it rough in some ways, too. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, and coming home some nights to find my electricity had been shut off from nothing more than a lack of funds. In NV, they won't even work with people. I have literally seen people crying and begging the power company there to turn their power back on because they had children. To no avail.
I do feel bad for the people down there, Christy, and I am glad you have kept telling us what it is really like. It has been a dirty little secret. Maybe that's why the veil was lifted down there, to let in the light.
You know what I don't get about Louisiana?
We supply a full what 3rd? of the nations oil, major sea ports for commerce rail lines sending all that out in all directions... Yet Louisiana is still probably the poorest of all 50 states.
And we are not even a very large state. It is just very very disproportionate considering our value in all of this nations supply chain.
Truth,
You are right exactly, it is a dirty little secret that Katrina exposed without mercy or even much warning.
Please do not feel bad for me, it was rough but it was a life and I do not feel I was cheated anymore than anyone else. It was still much better than being poor in say, Mexico, or the Sudan.
Just do not let them build up that fake facades again, and try to hide it anymore. These people are desperate for only one thing, hope. The hunger does not matter when you can thrive on hope alone.
Do not ever let them cover it back up. Insist on SEEING IT. Once it is all out in the open it can be delt with.
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 05:02 PM
Yes, Christy, we have to keep it uncovered. Don't ever think people don't care. They can't care about what they can't see. Look on some of the maps that show the decline in Bush's popularity. Immediately after Katrina is when his numbers began to fall. You may think people don't care about the poor. But I think they do.
Ann Wright: Iraq War Makes World Less Safe
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806B.shtml
Ann Wright, former Deputy Chief of Mission at the US Embassy in Mongolia for the US Foreign Service, feels as long as the US remains in Iraq, the violence there will continue. Wright said the US needs to leave as soon as possible and leave it up to the Iraqi people to decide if they want an international presence and, if so, whom.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060408/ap_on_re_mi_ea/rebuilding_iraq_1
Time Running Out for Rebuilding of Iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq - In their makeshift offices in a former Baghdad palace, a small army of American builders and engineers, oilmen and budgeteers is working overtime on last-minute projects to help reconstruct Iraq. Their time is running short, their money running out. After three years in which the U.S. government allocated more than $20 billion for Iraq reconstruction, a bill now making its way through Congress adds only $1.6 billion this year, just $100 million of it for construction -- not for building schools or power stations, but for prisons.
{{{Is THAT the best the US can do in Iraq??? Build prisons?!?!? Time to haul @$$ out of there!!!}}}
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060408/ap_on_go_co/congress_vacation
Congress on Vacation After 2 Weeks of Work
Leak-Hating President as Leaker-in-Chief?
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806A.shtml
After long denouncing leaks of all kinds, Bush is confronted with a statement - unchallenged by his aides - that he authorized a leak of classified material to undermine an Iraq war critic.
Diane E. Dees | Plenty of Opportunities to Impeach Bush
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806I.shtml
Patriot Daily points out that Congress may ratify Bush's illegal spying with new FISA legislation so that his actions will be deemed legal and he cannot be impeached for having committed them, but Bush violated enough other laws to make impeachment proceedings possible.
{{{Note: The author, after a brief intro paragraph, goes on to cite illegal things DumDum did just for the month of March, 2006 alone.... Oh, and I'm notifying my legislators to vote against FISA changes. I don't want DumDum's illegal wiretapping made legal after the fact....}}}
Karen, I'm thrilled for your success and look forward to hearing the response to your play from London.
On Biden, let's not forget Kerry was saying everyone has a "stake in Iraq" and calling for "bringing the players to the table", in a real way, since this war started. He has called for a real summit, more participation from the Arab League, many times. The purpose was to avoid the civil war he was warning about, as well as avoiding terrorist groups take hold in Iraq. Biden didn't say anything new last night, and if he thinks the Bushies are really going to pull out of Iraq, then he STILL doesn't understand the Bush Doctrine. Finally, 100,000 troops in Iraq at the end of the year isn't an acceptable example of a withdrawal strategy anyway. I thought he stunk, typical egocentric Biden.
I do think people care about the poor Truth. But as you said, if you don't SEE IT, then it is not real to be cared about.
The apathy has been programmed into us in many ways, and not just over voter fraud. I think they do not hide the hunger so much as they cover the depth of it. The gov admits it is there then pretends it dont matter. Eventually people conform to that concept as long as they do not see it themselves then it cannot be a real issue.
I do think they care, but sometimes it really is hard to not lose hope. I pray I live to see the real change that needs to happen here take place. my cynical mind wants to scoff at such futility, but it is my home and in my heart I truely do hope it sees better days.
I do not think it will change, but God knows I sure hope it does.
Hello from England, where Internet access costs $8.00 a pop! So I won't be long; just checking in...
Christy,
Keep notifying the media. Someone would surely want to cover the epidemic of poverty that is down there. No better time than right now. Write LTE's, and get everyone else you know to do the same.
Sandy,
I agree.
Hi Karen!!!
You got there fast!
Keep us informed as you can!!!
Karen
I love your photo on the main page. I was just thinking maybe you were over Greenland or something!
This is from Bert, who says "Kos Hearts Kerry - Today Anyway."
Kerry is featured on DailyKos, Georgia10 diary. I'm heading over there.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/17287/97420
Well I will say Marcos is a party man, albeit a reform party man. Last night he gave me a button that says "Mom, Baseball, Apple Pie and a Unified Democratic Juggernaut." I'm taking it to heart.
Christy
There should not be poverty today in America.
Even LBJ had the "War on Poverty" during the Vietnam war - guns AND butter. It's easier to make war on poverty than war on terror or even war on drugs.
"I will tell you, nowhere in there, nowhere, not in one page, not in one phrase uttered and reported by the Lord Jesus Christ, can you find anything that suggests that there is a virtue in cutting children from Medicaid and taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich," Mr. Kerry said.
head over to Kos & help me!
I told Kerry we would and I told Kos we would.
How did that happen in one week? I got lucky.
I'm not kidding! Come one now!!
pleeze?!
I like my tacos with sour cream, lettice, cheese but no onion or tomato. And in my opinion 08 doesn't matter if it's Hillary, Clinton, or my dog Cappy because if we don't take the Congress back in 06 and make election reform and paper trails mandatory AND eliminate all hidden source codes, then no matter what dog and pony we put up, no one will win against any Republican.
So...where's my tacos minus the onion and tomato but with tons of sour cream?
Wow some of those Kossacks are flipping like pancakes!
They have been dying to hear these words from Kerry (or somebody).
Sparrow
We'll make it a taco bar - everyone will have their basic taco, hard or soft - they they can add their own condiments - very democratic, laissez faire.
& Mohitos
Cinco de Mayo can be Taco Day at DCP
Posted by: sparrow at April 8, 2006 06:11 PM
sparrow,
I couldn't agree with you more.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 06:21 PM
Bien, hablando técnicamente, es hoy 8 de abril
Posted by: Indie Liberal at April 8, 2006 06:23 PM
I'm glad somone understood what I meant since upon re-reading my post, I saw I wrote, "Hillary, Clinton".
Call for Band of Brothers:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/17287/97420
Check this out - Tom Hayden on Kerry, at Huffington Post but reported on these guys' blog:
http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=2575
This whole thing will be deja vu for Hayden
Excerpt:
No one can be certain, but the primary winds are blowing in the direction of peace and progressive politics. Sen. Hillary Clinton, the seemingly invincible front-runner, is not likely to emerge from Iowa and New Hampshire unscathed. Her hardline support of the Iraq War is not only mistaken and immoral, but appears to many voters as chronic opportunism. Unless the war suddenly ends, her credibility will suffer severely in the primaries.
This is why the “Kerry factor” becomes important. As the former nominee, Kerry commands media and public attention. As an anti-war voice, he is in sharp contrast with the silence of the lambs. As a potential presidential contender, he is a credible foil to the centrist hawks and challenges the party leaderhip to make up its mind.
Hayden is critical of both Democrats who are not demanding peace as Kerry is, and of the portions of the anti-war movement which attack Kerry for not going far enough, such as those who want to leave now:
However, the war is not likely to end either “now” or in December. The debate is about competing visions and scenarios, not the calendar. Kerry’s proposal will draw support from millions of voters hungry for withdrawal and despondent over Bush’s 2004 victory. It helps ensure that Iraq will be an issue in politics and the media despite those who prefer denial and avoidance.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 03:47 PM
Very interesting discussion, and it is obvious how values and issues intertwine. It is impossible to separate them. The value of respecting human life while the issue becomes one of not letting people needlessly suffer is well illustrated by the discussion of difficult childhoods.
I have led a priviledged life, but my father did not. He suffered throughout the depression, and struggled to accomplish his goals. He postponed and denied himself some of life's simplest pleasures (a warm bath as a child and wearing shoes, without holes in the soles, that fit). He is very bright and luckily earned a full scholarship to Penn State University. He did well in school, but unable to afford the medical school to which he was accepted, he spent nearly three years working to make enough money to partially pay for his first year of school. He worked throughout medical school, surviving on a steady diet of radish and onion sandwiches - living in the attic of girls boarding house for which he was their man servant (bus boy, maid, dishwasher etc.) I could recount too many stories. He taught my three brothers and me the value of hard work and the meaning of truly being poor.
So, I think it is nearly impossible to separate issues from values.
The challenge is helping Americans to better understand the the differences we have with today's aristocracy in solving America's problems. I once heard a Republican political analyst say that the party that can best boil the issue down to a bumper sticker rather than a treatise will win the hearts and minds of the voters. That is the dilema as the problems are clearly very complicated and not easily distilled down into two sentences, but that is our challenge.
Christy, I am in total agreement with you, as I also believe that nearly all the issues dividing this country are actually issues of Civil Rights.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 06:04 PM
WOOO HOOO Senator Kerry!!!!
Way to send the message in the only way some of those religious fundamentalists understand!!!
Show them what REAL morality is!!
In all of the scriptures of the Holy Bible, none of them suggests devaluing humans. Unfair taxation, disobeying our laws, not caring for the poor, elderly, infirm, and underpriviledged, not treating people equally, not providing opportunities for growth and betterment, lying, slandering, stealing, murdering ~ are ALL immoral and heinous acts and deeds that have been perpetrated on the people of this nation by the people Pat Robertson supports!!!
I hope he uses the scriptures to prove his point time and time again to those who support the Republicans just because Pat Robertson does so.
Go tell it, Senator Kerry!! All you have to do is stay on point, and they can't help but hear you!!!
OnCall
I think of the values as the more general, and the issues as fitting into them. We could just pick a couple of over-riding values that we all hold, and then the issues tend to nestle within.
If we can get values that all Democrats share and that becomes our "brand," then we can attract people to the fold rather than seeking them out. The issues would be interpreted differently by various people (as they often are) but not so much the values.
If the Conservative Values were Security (encompassing issues of law and order, huge military spending, arms race, guns for all, keeping our borders tight, keeping people out of our yards by using big dogs, whatever) and Social Morality (purity, virginity, whatever they think they're trying to prove or control) - then what might ours be? A third would be Fiscal Conservatism - hahahahaha. (They have blown that like a punctured tire)
If we narrow it to two or three, what do we identify with as progressives or liberals? Social Justice (encompasses issues of civil rights, gay rights, human rights, freedom, peace) and Progress (moving ahead, health, education, good economy).
We might be able to come up with more concise bumper stickers than they have.
They characterize us as Weak (not warmongering enough, don't kick enough foreign butt, too nice) and Big Spenders (supposedly on social programs, a drop in the bucket compared to what the military budget is - ask Ben Cohen to illustrate with Oreos).
Truth Shall Prevail
I think Kerry was even an altar boy. Since we have long ago blown separation of Church and State in this country, let him go ahead and point out the hypocrisies!
I'm going back to Kos. Anyone game?
The Kerry-Kos combination could be lethal.
My Kossack friend can't believe his eyes but I tell you, Kos is a vet (Gulf War) and former Republican. He is a party man.
It don't take a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Bob Dylan
Dianne my point is this, you can not narrow it to just two or three issues.
That is why you must pick one theme that encompasses them all. Civil Rights.
You can not make say voter rights MORE important than gay rights. Both are worthy, both should have inhierent rights. ALL democrats ONLY agree on Civil Rights, so name that the tent and it provides a large enough umbrella to honestly shelter all of the mass of democrats.
EVERYTHING we are fighting for, about and against is directly about civil rights. Everything. What I do not understand is the absolute and outright reluctance of all dem leaders and activists to say Yes it is about Civil Rights but we just can not call it that.
The God Guns and Gays mentality of the south and infecting the rest of the nation can ONLY be silenced with a higher moral argument. You will find no higher cause than rights that keep each of us free and in pursuit of liberty.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 07:05 PM
Yes. And while he doesn't have to do it all the time, He can do it many times. And, just like BushCo has sent Karen Hughes to the 700 Club to talk about her faith, Teresa could go ~ or a representative of Kerry's ~ and give Pat Robertson a run for his money. I could debate Pat Robertson and win.
I am not sure the right votes on issues. Or the left either. Because behind it all lie some deep emotions about how important the issues they believe in are.
If I hear one more person compare Mexicans to AMERICANS I swear to God I am going to scream and claw out my own eyeballs.
It is just utterly ridiculous.
Christy
Merkins? Merkin dream?
I know what you're saying ..
By the way, an actual Nazi is running for office in Montana.
He says his values are in sync with the Republican party.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/174458/8353
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 07:13 PM
Christy, I'll tell you why we can't call it civil rights.
Because you get a knee-jerk reaction to the term "civil rights" from alot of people who don't understand they have an interest in the subject. Fundies and red-necks, people in suburbia, among a few. Bigoted people see thousands of black people in the streets hollering that they aren't treated good enough. Fundies, Catholics, and rural America sees women's libbers marching, and it goes against how they see themselves socially.
That produces a negative knee-jerk reaction.
The damage that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk have done by slurring and labeling people is tremendous.
I know one thing for a fact: The Bushites got their votes from pushing people's buttons and causing an emotional reaction that only voting Republican would fix, in many cases. For instance, voting against the "A" word. They were made to think they would rot in hell if they voted Republican because that was made synonomous with endorsing the "A" word. That produced anxiety and fear. They were led to believe they were safe in George Bush's arms, with bin Laden at large. That was a security issue, but the core emotion was raw fear. They voted to fix their emotions.
I say lead them to relate with compassion toward the poor, the ill, those that do not have. Lead them by pushing their consciences, by appealing to the better man in each of them.
They aren't afraid to manipulate people with emotion. We shouldn't be either. Especially if it's to their own advantage. I think we have to "move" them. But, then, that's just my opinion.
Related - "Republicanizing the Race Card" by Sydney Blumenthal
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060410/blumenthal
This is shocking.
It is just so self evident, so you would think.
I am an American because I was born in North AMERICA on this big damn land mass called the AMERICAS.
It used to be just a pet peeve now it is quickly turning into just a big stupid thing that makes me madder the more I hear it.
Christy
Yes, we are the United States, OF America.
I really don't think alot of people are aware of what you are saying. Also, people continue to refer to United States as a democracy and we're a republic. So we don't really spread Democracy but we sure seem to spread Republicans!
OnCall
Nice work over at Kos!
Truth...
I personally believe the knee jerk reaction is a good thing and why is simple.
WE KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE IT. So we also by default should have prepared our arguments. The knee jerk in itself will cause more to become engaged either way until it is so big no one can stop it.
I think by throwing away the term Civil Rights instead of protecting and defending the concept is the whole problem. We can not let those bastards determine our use of correct and even traditional party platforms.
WE WANT THEM TO HAVE THAT KNEE JERK REACTION. They will immediately go on the defensive and by becoming ANTI CIVIL RIGHTS they have committed political suicide.
Just fly the flag and let the argument of civil rights speak for itself. They can not morally defeat it, no matter how much they scream and wail they simply can NOT counter it. They HAD to kill Martin, they HAD too. They could not stop what he was setting in motion, they did not stop it, all they did was make it more dangerous and for BIGGER stakes.
If you do not unite ALL of the dems with ONE idea, then the fracture is inevitable.
Yes, OC,
OK DiAnne,
I registered and am waiting my 24 hours.
Truth Shall Prevail
See you over there tomorrow!
It's a maze & a mixed bag but worth working on,
at this point.
Wow - it still blows me away to see that Bush himself is
implicated in this leak stuff. It's hard to justify what HE
did as ok, but what everyone else did as sneaky. It's
like DeLay - what Abramoff did implicates his office,
therefore him. They are crooks, like Nixon.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5743312,00.html
by becoming ANTI CIVIL RIGHTS they have committed political suicide. Christy
That is what I mean by the Democrats articulating a couple of basic values, one of which is social justice, which encompasses the issue of civil rights & all the other rights too.
The other one that I was searching for - Peace, or AntiWar - that's the one they portray as Weak. But what is Strong about killing, spending, hating & lying about why?!
"They" also have this habit of having "ideology" (such as being warmongers, or being holier-than-thou) but also being in bed with Big Business (which worships Profit as God).
We have to know what we collectively believe and where we can agree and then stick with it. We can also back it up with facts. They don't use facts because facts undermine their Ideology, but that doesn't mean we have to follow their example, because facts back up Truth.
What is ProLife about killing, starving, maiming, failing to take care of people? What is Christian or Moral about it? The only way conservatives set the terms is because of mainstream media. Now they have used the media to their own ends, and turned against them when they tried in any way to tell the truth..
Many on the right accuse the media of Liberal bias. Many reporters are liberal, traditionally, because of the values of journalism, but most owners are conservative so control what gets out.
Once the media itself is badly enough burned, they might turn.
Reporters are being threatened for talking with government agents (and vice versa), down to using polygraph testing. We can help this backfire by continuing to demand facts.
You know I appreciate what Kerry said, it is very true, but at the same time we can NOT let this become a 'No baby Jesus loves me more!' type of thing.
It won't work to do anything but start an unholy war.
Dianne what we ALL collectivly agree on is that we were born with basic rights and we call these civil rights. Every single democrat believes in civil rights as being the foundation of our very freedom. It is the only ONE thing we all do agree on.
They will ALL fight for it if they are allowed too.
If you do not unite ALL of the dems with ONE idea, then the fracture is inevitable.
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 07:57 PM
Yes, Christy, you are right on about this one.
People can and will turn their backs on civil rights issues, as long as they don't think it involves them. They have done it for centuries. they did it when they voted Republican in '04.
Let's face it. People are selfish. They vote most of the time (up until '04 because of the fear factor) for their own best interests.
But show those people the poor, and implore them to help, and see what happens.
No see thats the thing.. Civil rights is about altruisim..
BUT it also very much applies to the selffish. I mean I want my damn rights and I am more than proud to be greedy about it.
Thats the beautiful thing about Civil Rights, you would have to be out of your mind to NOT want them for yourself, and yet it winds up protecting even the weakest among us.
What we need are better messengers or atleast better speechwriters.
Just once I long to hear the fire of indignation from Kerry, just once I would like to see Hillary Clinton just freaking dare them.
As it is even our bumper stickers suck.
God made poets for a reason, I suggest high ranking dems hire a few and tell it like it is.
Civil rights is associated with the movement in the 60s mostly having to do with African Americans. Gay rights with gays, women's rights with women or feminism.
How about Human Rights? That also covers the issue of torture. Bear in mind that the US refuses to be on the Human Rights council of the UN under this administration, that ACLU, Amnesty International and other civil and human rights organizations has many allegations against them.
Then we will be called Secular Humanists too. The accusations of Secularism (like it was a bad thing) started around the time of the Moral Majority and then the Christian Coalition. The implications was that if you weren't a conservative and a rightwing fundamentalist Christian one, you were a Godless heathen debachery drug-addled orgy-participating lust-ridden animal.
We need to redefine what Moral means and what Compassion means. They tried to take the Flag, the Cross, and every other symbol they could lay their hands on. The only one that ends up fitting them is the Elephant, but they really are no longer the Grand Old Party.
USA Today is a conservative, watered-down Weekly Reader type paper. Yet it's blog comments on-line, quite a few from Republicans, roundly criticize Bush right now.
I went out for coffee a bit ago and large headlines announced the fall in Bush's ratings. The pollster himself was blown away (Ipsos-Reid poll). What people were saying is that the Republicans will look around for someone more moderate. If they do, then we don't have to be as far to the center. This may be the beginning of the incremental cycle back to center then left-of-center.
One factor that's hard to predict is the business community (such as Chamber of Commerce). I don't trust them, since some sectors profit off war and misery (cheap labor).
Christy
"Hire Poets, Not Consultants" (for my car)
Yes Human Rights is the larger issue above civil rights, but our immediate needs are more focused than human rights. It is all together and goes hand in hand, but it is civil rights that we are coming together to ensure.
Once those rights are realativly safe we will have a bigger ship to rescue the rest suffering under human rights issues.
"Hire Poets, Not Consultants"
My God, that is beautiful!!!
I may just cry.
Perfect.
NonnyO
This is for your car
http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.18793123
Subpoena the leaker (also Impeach the leaker)
http://www.cafepress.com/thewhitehouse.18793123
What I was trying to say is civil rights is a direct political action, it is what we are seeking in particular from this government.
We can not save poets being tortured in china if we can not save ourselves from our own government here first.
Civil rights is a political situation. Human rights is a moral situation. One we can ask for the other can only be demanded by those with the right to do so.
Human rights, civil rights, and basic rights...what we all deserve.
How is that for a unifying message?
(said with passion and poetry of course!)
Christy
To me, Civil Rights has also always meant rights of all individuals as citizens under the law - things guaranteed under the Constitution regardless of station in life, finances, life circumstances - basic legal rights.
When we think of voter disenfranchisement, we're back to civil rights as fought for in the early 1960s. We had busses and toilets and drinking fountains and schools separated by race.
Wait until we get an immigrant underclass. Wouldn't this group in power now just love to have a multi-tiered, caste-like society?
We can't let that happen.
Same with women's rights. There was a time when women couldn't vote, couldn't go to school. We can't have Laura Bush championing women's rights in Afghanistan and Liberia and then have women's rights eroding in South Dakota. It doesn't make sense. I remember when men and women had separate minimum wages - I saw the poster in the Post Office - in South Dakota. That was over 40 years ago. We can't let it happen.
Kerry Makes Slashing Attack on Bush Administration
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/17287/97420
for those just tuning in - 300 some comments - add yours
Sparrow that was very poetic. Nice.
How bout this one... To shame them into it.
Are you one of the .1% of US Citizens that has read the Constitution?
Or...
My Civil Rights Are Not For Sale
or
Civil Rights = Freedom
Oh I like that one, even the most dull would get it.
Christy
You know one of my favorites? I think it comes from Act-Up
Silence = Death
I saw one the other day:
War Is Not Working
A popular one here:
War is Terrorism
Civil Rights = Freedom
Now who dares not like freedom? Haha.
You wanna soften up the south for a Civil Rights movement? Someone print that logo on a bunch of bumper stickers and send them to me and I will have this ghetto in the deep south sporting one on every car by the end of the week.
Then just let them drive around with it for 3 or 4 months. Hahaha this town would not know what hit it but I garuntee you they would ALL take notice.
It would almost be biblical if not so hillarious. I hear the precher at the first babtist church is a real bush fan, sermons and all, and his church is right on the main drag.
HAHAHAHAHA.
For Michigan people in particular from new DCP member Jen posted in the Action Alert forum:
There will be a large rally in Lansing on Sat. April 29 at 2:00 pm to send a message to the legislators.
If this rally is a huge success the next march will be Washington.
For more info. see http://www.cmad.us/
Gov. Granholm and Sen. Stabenaw will be in attendance and any one else we can encourgage to come out.
website if you would like to help promote.
This is a rally for everyone.
Thanks
Jen
http://www.democracycellproject.net/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=121&t=1056&st=0#entry4154
Dam hukd on foniks ant wurkng no mo
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 08:58 PM
Topplebush.com might have that or might be willing to create them for you. Sadly, I'm not sure who could afford to buy 1000's of them though.
dw...is that Memorial Day weekend?
When we talk about war, we're really talking about peace. George W. Bush
I dont need a 1000 more like 100 would do.
bumper stickers are running about 50cents each
cafe press allows you to create your own mugs and t'shirts.
Let's check what they run. (Actually, my inlaws have a machine that does that, but since they're wrong-winged fundies, I hesitate to ask them.
hmmmmmm
I ll see what I can do at 50cents a pop.
You know the funny thing is, black people here, all my nieghbors, they all openly approach civil rights and they take it very very seriously. To them it is NOT a 1960s thing, it is a very real and present issue to them.
But to southern white people, to them that is where the kneejerking comes in. It is like their jaw drops and they are just in utter disbelief that you would even think to bring up 'all these old issues'.
It causes such a huge chasam that blacks and whites are VISIBLY uncomfortable here when left alone with each other. I mean you can literally see the divide just by watching the silence of two people in the same room. The silence literally evolves into something hostile and... ugly.
The blacks here have been waiting for that Civil Rights movement to come to them for all this time, but they only speak about it in whispers.
God I love the south. I doubt I would feel so much for it if not for such dangerous, colorful quirks.
http://www.cafepress.com/buy/bumper/-/fpt________________P/c_78
and you can create and sell your own.
"Peace is Patriotic"
has been a powerful concept
It combats something like
"Freedom Isn't Free"
- which I consider to be kind of a manipulative one,
that suggests people are dying for our freedom
in a very misleading manner
I did not like that "Power of Pride" one -
it seemed to tie in with all that nationalism parading as
patriotism hysteria after 9/11 & was also a way to replace
that flag that people didn't even bother to bring in out of
the rain.
Christy
No you are right. The Civil Rights movement developed steam in the early 60s but a movement has to be kept alive and is always in jeopardy because of the countermovement to quell it. Civil rights is an ongoing struggle topic, like all the human rights - we can't ever be complacent.
Christy,
Here is that map that DiAnne posted a few days ago. The shift started after Katrina.
Watch it turn colors right before your eyes.
http://www.radicalruss.net/blog/images/bushmap-new.gif
Sparrow am trying to set up a shop but it gets kinda complicated may take a bit to figure it out.
TY for the link. Very cool.
Check out this site
http://jurassicpork.blogspot.com/
Also go over to KOS and post a comment. The Kossacks are actually being reasonable. I am not sure why, but I think it has to do with Georgia10's request that the conversation remain civil (now that's a new way to look at that word).
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/8/17287/97420?detail=f#c338
Dianne I think maybe that is why Civil Rights became so taboo, because you have to fight for it. It is not politically correct to pick a fight. It is a struggle that must be fought because they will NEVER just give us our rights willingly when they can make us slaves instead.
Political Correctness is a tool used to make good men go silent and quit fighting. It is a false promise meant to subdue dissent.
Political correctness should be the enemy of every single one of us.
OnCall
I think some of the people are actually reading the text (at Kos) and I also think having it on there in the first place helps, and yes, the call for civility.
Christy
Well I think also because activists fight - apathetics sit back.
An on-going struggle is not people's favorite - not with short attention spans and habit of wanting immediate gratification fast food fix politics. Yes, speaking truth is stronger than being politically correct, ie. towing the party line. We have to be able to back up what we say, not just be knee-jerk, because that's another trap to fall into.
I think we're getting somewhere today! I know I've been inspired by recent events with Kerry and with the blogosphere kind of coming together a bit more in some ways (it seems) and with some of the rightwing rat having to step down (Card, Delay). Even now, Bush's lawyer is blaming Cheney for directing Libby to leak & Bush is blaming Reid for the Immigration deal not going through. Bush is not getting his way though, just like he hasn't yet on social security, and that makes me happy.
OnCall
You will see some familiar names over at Kos - I've been trying to rouse them and it's starting to work!
I've never been a big fan of Biden. However, I was impressed with his appearance on Maher last night. He was funny if not as articulate as I would've liked, and he carefully and successfully delineated the difference between what religion's role ought to be in politics and how it's been hijacked by today's neocons.
Hey, thanks for the link, Christy!
Cool blog, jurassicpork!
Couldn't Stand The Weather
by Stevie Ray Vaughan
Runnin' through this business of life,
rarely time if I'm needed to
Ain't so funny when things ain't feelin' right,
then daddy's hand helps to see me through
Sweet as sugar love won't wash away,
rain or shine, it always here to stay
All these years you and I've spent together,
all this, we just couldn't stand the weather
Like a train that stops at every station,
we all deal with trials and tribulations
Fear hangs the fellow that ties up his years,
entangled in yellow and cries all his tears
Changes come before we can grow,
learn to see them before we're too old
Don't just take me for tryin' to be heavy,
understand, it's time to get ready for the storm
The Wapo is getting ever closer to calling bush a liar
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/08/AR2006040800916_pf.html
And your welcome Jurrassic, except I believe that may have been Oncalls link you were reffering too.
Fear Up... Be Afraid
NYT: 4 officials deny nuke plan: Developing
Mag: U.S. considers nuking Iran...
According to a New Yorker article written by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, the Bush Administration "has increased clandestine activities inside Iran and intensified planning for a possible major air attack."
Hersh also reports that officers from the Joint Chiefs of Staff have "talked about resigning" because of all the "attention given to the nuclear option."
Excerpts from Hersh's article "The Iran Plans":
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Mag_U.S._considers_nuking_Iran_0408.html
Running through my head all day:
You don't need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows
Dylan
Christy,
yw, for the link. Nice chatting with all of you. I need to retire now since I will be working again tomorrow.
I've had weather songs in my head today too, Dianne.
Some say I'm partly cloudy.
(edited by moderator)
As for Joe Biden's appearance on Maher last night, he was entertaining, intelligent, everything a politician should be. He could easily win the Democratic nomination, but he's not to be trusted. His votes don't match up with his stated philosophy, so I'm not tooting his horn at this point. I don't think Kerry will win the nomination again either, and I have doubts that Hillary will even run, regardless of all the media hype. I think we all will be surprised by who our party's nominee is in '08, and that it will be someone who can definitely win this time. Right now though, it's '06, and taking back the congress is all I'm going to think about for the next few months. Then we can impeach Bush and Cheney and we'll all be happy. I don't want to wait until '08.
2000+
Impeach
Bush's leak
That's no leak
Truth and Leaks
Leaker-in-chief?
The Plame game
Farewell, Fig Leaf
Bush behind leaks
The leaker in chief
Leaky News Judgment
Divine Right of Bushes
Spin cycle springs a leak
America deserves the truth
To Leak of CIA Agent's Name
Did Bush Authorize the Leak?
Leak scandal goes to president
Bush under pressure in leak row
Libby says Bush OKd leak on Iraq
Leak-Hating President, As Leaker
White House Does Not Deny Leak
Very unusual, and unprofessional
Bush, Cheney at centre of CIA leak
President Better Mean What He Says
Another White House is buying silence
White House Says Some Leaks Are Good
Libby Squeaks: Bush Authorised Big Leak
White House Faces Barrage of Leak Queries
Critics label Bush hypocrite for authorizing leak
US president cleared leak of secret Iraq information
First, a Leak; Now, a Jam; Timing Is Bad for President
'and also never HEARD of anyone in this part of the country who still read by a Kerosene lamp in the 1960's.'
'but urban legends are just that. Legends.'
What exactly are you calling an urban legend? And again when I say my family went without electricity for years in Louisiana what exactly about that do you not understand to be possible?
I was not even born until 73.
This was the late 80s early 90s. I missed almost anything media related in those years so I read. Alot.
And yes people in this country still read by latern light when they spend large parts of their life in the dark.
Posted by: DiAnne at April 8, 2006 08:37 PM
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)
(edited by moderator)
Tom Harkin US Senate
Petition in Support of the Resolution of Censure
Yes, Tom! Please let your colleagues in the Senate know that the American people demand accountable, law-abiding democracy here at home, not just rhetoric about democracy abroad! I want you to mobilize support for Senator Feingold's Resolution of Censure so that when the Senate returns to session after the Easter recess, a vote on the Senate floor will tell President Bush that no American can be above the law!
Please use the form below to sign the petition.
http://www.tomharkin.com/petition/default.asp
Laterns are only for hurricanes.
(edited by moderator)
(edited by moderator)
Hammer down
Without Delay
Exit Tom Delay
Delay’s Downfall
Delay Goes Down
The Long Goodbye
Fall of the Hammer
Tom DeLay Paradox
What Delay Wrought
The Delay House Rules
Delay, Defiant, Departs
What Delay Left Behind
It’s Hammer’s Time to Go
The Culture of Hypocrisy
Delay’s Self-Inflicted Fall
Fatal Flaws Topple Delay
Tom Delay Finally Departs
The Tricky Politics of Scandal
No DeLay on his political spin
Tom DeLay forced to bow out
Delay’s legacy: record deficits
Shed No Tears for Tom Delay
This is Not the Time for Delay
Time to Lay the Hammer Down
DeLay's demise pushes reform
Delay exercised his only option
Delay Takes One For the Team
Tom DeLay's last favor for the GOP
House Republicans: Bring Back DeLay
Republicans Weigh Post-DeLay World
Delay’s exit: Good for GOP, Congress
Delay’s tactics distorted GOP principles
When a Pro Postures, Stand Back in Awe
DeLay eligible for $67,000 yearly pension
Tom DeLay steps down from US Congress
GOP Will Reap Bitter Fruit Delay has Sown
DeLay leaves legacy of bigger government
DeLay's step-down: What are the effects?
DeLay to Announce Resignation From House
GOP Sees Disturbing Reflection in The Mirror
DeLay Inc. systematized exchange of favors
DeLay Voluntarily Aided Federal Investigation
GOP crisis far from over, despite DeLay's departure
Bush, GOP must regroup without muscleman DeLay
Going but not forgotten: DeLay's troubling legacy for GOP
Delay, Leaving Congress, Has 'No Fear' of Any Wrongdoing ...
LIBERAL WAR ON TERRORISM HEATS UP: DELAY FINALLY CAPTURED By Ann Coulter
About povery
Poverty is everywhere.
About racism
Racism is everywhere.
We have had these discussions for almost 3 years now.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060409/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Official: 'Undeclared Civil War' in Iraq
Despite the violence, U.S. officials have discounted talk of civil war. However, a senior Iraqi official said Saturday that an "undeclared civil war" had already been raging for more than a year.
"Is there a civil war? Yes, there is an undeclared civil war that has been there for a year or more," Maj. Gen. Hussein Kamal told The Associated Press. "All these bodies that are discovered in Baghdad, the slaughter of pilgrims heading to holy sites, the explosions, the destruction, the attacks against the mosques are all part of this."
(More on link.)
(edited by moderator)
Hey, I was about to hit the sack, and I came back on for one little last read of the blog here.
On behalf of myself and maybe others, I ask that you two and anyone else who has issues just do what we want others to do:
1. Respect--treat each other with respect and treat everyone here with respect. Because in our little model "blog" if we can not treat others with respect and learn to negotiate and act diplomatically, then how can we expect our government representatives to do it?
2. Recognise that we are all 'drawn to' differences or repelled but here at the DCP we have to learn to negotiate and/or ignore things rather than creating an unwelcoming situation.
3. Recognise that each of us has our own history, our own interests, our own skills, our own passions, and our own lives. They intersect here on the blog. But because there is no way anyone has ever walked completely in another person's shoes, then we need to simply respect that what they're presenting is their side of the story--no matter what our thoughts are--it is their side. (Yes, I can tell you from personal experience...my husband and I will view the same situation, yet each of us will have our own interpretation. He would like to think his side is the only valid one, but I myself know that mine is the only valid one! (just kidding) But I'm sure you get my point. We live in one country, and even my husband and I live in one house, but we see the world differently and we come from different experiences and perspectives.) So, let's just appreciate that and appreciate what we have been given.
4. Blog fights are a waste of emotional energy as well as time. So, when we're tired and aggravated, then let's put those emotions to better use by going to Freepers and trying to reason with them! (k?)
5. Last but not least, we can't have blog fights because I'd have to get Marc to pull the blog over and sing Kumbaya together. Since I don't know where Marc is, that might present some difficulty.
So...on to our regularly scheduled respectful and caring blogging...
(edited by moderator)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060409/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak
Lawyer: Bush Didn't Direct Libby to Leak
{{{Same AP story as Guardian link above. To which I say: Yeah, sure, whatever. Like anyone with a brain is going to believe any more LIES coming from the White House now?!?!?}}}
AT&T Gave Your Data to Feds
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/040806D.shtml
AT&T provided NSA eavesdroppers with full access to its customers' phone calls, and shunted its customers' internet traffic to data-mining equipment installed in a secret room in its San Francisco switching center, according to a former AT&T worker cooperating in the Electronic Frontier Foundation's lawsuit against the company.
(edited by moderator)
Edit all you want they saw it.
Getting back to the bumper stickers, Christy...Are you making some? If I understood that site correctly, you're allowed to create as many pictures as you want, because you make them on an as ordered basis.
Also, I believe by looking at the map Oncall gave me that we have a chance of taking back our Congress, so one thing I hope they'll immediately do is fix our elections, our media, impeach Bush and Cheney and any other Republicans who supported this, and then make DC a state.
Everyone was reading this in our paper this morning but now I received it by email, along with "36 others," who may also pass it along. The GOP is losing it's polling edge on terra as well!
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/266028_bushpoll08.html NEW LOW!!!
It's about how the GOP is hurtin' because W is hitting new lows.
We should call him the Limbo King - how looooooow can he
goooooooo?!!
lol-nmp.
Ok...so this is really bugging me. Let's say we take back the Congress. Do we impeach Bush and Cheney OR if we do are we then only letting another corrupt neoCON take over PLUS give him the benefits of incombancy?
This really bugs me. Maybe we should just Censure them and let them twist in the wind as a reminder of the whole Cabal's corruptness and evil.
Sparrow,
I just realized that not only do I no longer care about bumper stickers anymore, but there isn't much I DO care about. It is actually kind of a relief.
I even used to think this country was worth fighting for, but I just realized how stupid it was to believe that considering what I know about it.
You know what doll, to hell with the bumper stickers, I am going to go get drunk because it is the only thing I can bring myself to care about at this moment.
Sparrow
I can see advantages to either outcome - either way this Cabal doesn't have much of a legacy. It would be interesting if overwhelming evidence caused a groundswell of momentum for impeachment. On the other hand, those hearings go on and on and this country is destabilized enough as it is. & like you say, who knows who they would put in there. It could be even worse. Let's hope for the best for 2006, then 2008.
It's been a long day.
I am still waiting for ANYONE to ask linda how she can know more about my childhood than i do.
Whats wrong moderator she can attack me but I can not fight back?
Posted by: Christy at April 8, 2006 11:59 PM
Christy,
You're having a bad night. Instead of doing that, why don't you go relax?
It's very difficult for all of us when we see our world, our country, going to the bottom. See...I know you care Christy. And so do I.
But when I come to the blog, and I see all of our comments, and all of us visiting, I see it as a chance to work things out. Like your bumper stickers was a great idea.
But I think we need to practice what I posted above. We've become family here at the DCP and you and Linda and nmp and Truth and others are welcomed here as family.
We enjoy hearing from all of you. So instead of giving up, just go rest. I need to sleep and then work tomorrow, but I was so happy to come home today and read the blog. One day at a time...we can make a difference and are making a difference. All of us!!!
Christy,
How many kids were in your family? I come from a large (at least 5 kids) family myself. I think one thing we can expect is that with Bush's changes more families are going to slip through the cracks.
Excuse me when exactly did my bad night start? I was posting all day without any of that crap.
Why did no one bother to tell her to relax when right off the bat it was obvious what she was implying? Why does she feel the need to attack me EVERY TIME she sees me? I don't Know and I don't care.
I don't care. I mean I really don't. I have never given up a damn day in my life. I am not about to give up just because no one else will stick up for me.
Oh and since the moderator wont let me stick up for myself where does that leave me? DEFINATELY NOT PART OF YOUR LITTLE FAMILY.
I was trying but you know what? It was not worth it.
Posted by: not my president at April 9, 2006 12:03 AM
I'm not interested in if they have a legacy. Because they do! The legacy is set already. 66% of the people know they lied, they're corrupt, and they murdered over 2500 American kids, God knows how many Iraqis, and God knows how many they destroyed physically even if they're not dead. AND then there's the Plame outing. I keep think ing of those black stars on the walls at the CIA. I'm crushed! We must get this message out. Black stars! Representing the dead of people who nobly served our country but outed just for a politcal hatchet job.
Posted by: Christy at April 9, 2006 12:16 AM
It was a good day, Chisty. I very much enjoyed the comments. But now I have to get up in 6 hours to work.
I think I will dream of tacos-minus the onions and tomatos but with loads of sour cream.
Yum!
Posted by: Christy at April 9, 2006 12:16 AM
Christy,
You are part of our 'little' family as is Linda and nmp and Truth and marc and md and dw and spinacker and too many names for me to remember in the middle of the night.
So...let's put the blog to bed for the night, and come back tomorrow ready to make those rubberstamping Republican's and the pResident accountable for their sins against humanity.
And since I can't see JK tomorrow, I hope there will be much to read when I get back.
Thanks for the great conversation today everyone.
Bye Karen--happy trails in London and cherry-o!!!
I have been gone for several hours. I signed off at 9:50.
Its obvious there was a fight on this thread. It is also obvious that whatever offending comments were posted by either Linda or Christy, those comments have been removed. Thank-God for that.
Or should I say, thank the moderators for that.
Take it outside-both of you.
I don't know anything about black stars. Not so sure I could handle it if I did.
I wasn't around for much of what happened on the blog tonight, but I hope everyone gets some rest and takes good care of themselves.
I had to do this with a lady I disagree with about an issue that is near and dear to my heart:
Agree to disagree. She can see a situation any way she does, and act on it accordingly. I have just as much right to do the same. The things we agree about we can work on amiably together. The rest I am blowing off. Life's too short.
Christy you are too part of our family, and so is Linda. Don't y'all go bein' part of no other family.
Sparrow
That's what I mean - their legacy is ruined - it can only get worse. Even if someone tries to revise the history books, what they have done cannot be undone. I would prefer history remembers accurately.
I just want it to be blamed on them - not erased and revised & covered up with fake glory.
Those ungrateful Iraqis!
By Rosa Brooks:
AT LAST, there's consensus on who's to blame for the mess in Iraq: the Iraqis!
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article12644.htm
I have a family. Two brothers, two sisters, five children and a lover. Not one of them would have tolerated that crap she said either.
She sure picked the wrong subject to try to imply I was lying when I can provide atleast 7 eyewitnesses at any given time.
She was not just talking about my life she was talking about the suffering of my entire FAMILY. My real family is worth fighting for, they always have been, SHE is not my family never will be.
I won't be fighting for democrats anymore until they learn to fight for themselves, and I damn sure do not need another family where I have to fight my own.
New day, new promises... I have to get going to work now but this bears repeating for everyone. I have to agree with Christy above, (1:20am). Not any of us needs to come online and fight with this 'family' when we have our own familys here who are filling that position.
Fighting each other has never been the stated goal of the DCP and something tells me that it's not going to be something we add to our mission statement.
So, I'm going to repeat these guidelines and ask that each of us think two-three times before we post to others in a negative way.
1. Respect--treat each other with respect and treat everyone here with respect. Because in our little model "blog" if we can not treat others with respect and learn to negotiate and act diplomatically, then how can we expect our government representatives to do it?
2. Recognise that we are all 'drawn to' differences or repelled but here at the DCP we have to learn to negotiate and/or ignore things rather than creating an unwelcoming situation.
3. Recognise that each of us has our own history, our own interests, our own skills, our own passions, and our own lives. They intersect here on the blog. But because there is no way anyone has ever walked completely in another person's shoes, then we need to simply respect that what they're presenting is their side of the story--no matter what our thoughts are--it is their side. (Yes, I can tell you from personal experience...my husband and I will view the same situation, yet each of us will have our own interpretation. He would like to think his side is the only valid one, but I myself know that mine is the only valid one! (just kidding) But I'm sure you get my point. We live in one country, and even my husband and I live in one house, but we see the world differently and we come from different experiences and perspectives.) So, let's just appreciate that and appreciate what we have been given.
4. Blog fights are a waste of emotional energy as well as time. So, when we're tired and aggravated, then let's put those emotions to better use by going to Freepers and trying to reason with them! (k?)
5. Last but not least, we can't have blog fights because I'd have to get Marc to pull the blog over and sing Kumbaya together. Since I don't know where Marc is, that might present some difficulty.
So...on to our regularly scheduled respectful and caring blogging...
Im a student and am doing my dissertation on politics and performance and one of my chapters is discussing if terrorism is a performance and was wondering if anyone could please send me any information regarding the fear up tour as i was unable to get to london to see the performance and have found what everyone has to say about it really interesting so would like to find out more. Thanks