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Sanctified
My friend Touba and I got up early and went to Mt. Zion Baptist Church in Seattle Sunday morning. The sermon was given by Reverend Al Sharpton. We saw $67,000 given out in University scholarships and the music was so fabulous we didn't stop moving for two hours! I told Sebastien in Paris about it and he sent the photo of himself (upper right, tall guy) taken in NYC while he was an intern for Bill Clinton recently. "Is this the guy?" he asked. Definitely!! I heard Al Sharpton at the DNC in Boston, 2004 and that was riveting, but hearing him from the pulpit was magnificent!
"Every day above ground is a great day!" Reverend Sharpton proclaimed this in observing that the world seems on a collision course, with bombs, going to Iraq on a lie, poverty and homelessness. He talked about how the church needs to return to its roots of social justice. We should not come to church expecting to learn how to get rich via "gospel Lotto." After 150 years of segregation, why should people be afraid to discuss what's going on in the world?
"You meet many preachers but few ministers."
"Anyone can be saved for two or three hours a week."
"We live in a strange time .. with big edifices with small missions."
"Too many of us are so heavenly bound that we're no earthly good."
"Ain't no use fillin' up your tank if you ain't got nowhere to go."
"We don't need preachers to bless our shackles, we need preachers to break our shackles."
"God used Moses to speak up against Pharaoh, and God can use an Al Sharpton to speak up against George Bush."
He really hit hard on going back to "the fruits of our roots." Knowing that there is a large black middle class in Seattle yet some gang and social problems, he wondered whether parents were doing enough to underline the historic role of people who "died to give them their rights." He championed illiterates who paved the way for later generations to go to college, unempoyed who opened the door for corporate executives.
"Mirrors are not to reflect what you see. Mirrors are to correct what you see."
He told how one of the news magazines had featured three black executives and titled the article "The New Black Power." They considered these individuals to be "the alternative to the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons." He pointed out that they are the "result of the Jesse Jacksons and the Al Sharptons." Similarly, he chided black academicians who never fought for affirmative action but champion the right to use the "n word." Gangsta rappers have told him they are only exercising their right to "free expression" and "keepin' it real" and "kicking it like we see it." He told them that it was interesting that they only denounced their own and wondered what would happen if they used racial slurs for other groups on the radio. Similarly, he denounced the degradation of women in music.
"There wouldn't have been a Colin Powell if there hadn't been an Adam Clayton Powell."
That one almost made me fall off my feet, because it came on the tales of a history lesson about Althea Gibson and Medgar Evars and Martin Luther King. Adam Clayton Powell and Jesse Jackson were mentors of Al Sharpton's. Adam Clayton Powell was known for saying "Keep the faith, baby" and Jesse Jackson was known for saying "Keep hope alive." Over time, Al has come to believe that Adam Clayton Powell's slogan is much deeper than he ever imagined, for what is hope without some kind of underlying faith - in the future, in something. Otherwise, what is the point of even hoping?!
Al used to join the entourage of Muhammed Ali when he would come through Brooklyn, where Al came up through the projects as child of a single mother. He once asked Ali, "When did you know you were the greatest?" At first Ali thought it was after he beat Sonny Liston. Then he thought it was after he returned to boxing after being kicked out for not going to Vietnam. Then he thought it was after he knocked out Ken Norton, an unknown, when the tide was turning against him. He said, "Al, you won't be great until you've been knocked out." The message was "don't give up." This tied in perfectly with Al's earlier message that the legacy of the black race has been not to surrender, even when considered subhuman.
I think I would call what we saw both triumphant and inspiring, and it's a little of an antidote to one of those depressing articles a friend just sent me about consolidation of Bush's base through the megachurches. What we saw today was focussed, politically and spiritually, in a righteous and positive direction of peace, love and justice.
By the way, here is a great list of African-American blogs
http://sisterstalk.com/blackblogs/links.php
Lopez Obrador Urges Civil Resistance in Mexico
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706Z.shtml
Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the runner-up in Mexico's presidential election, called on a massive crowd Sunday to commit acts of "peaceful civil resistance" to force a vote-by-vote recount. Hundreds of thousands of supporters poured into the Zocalo, chanting: "You are not alone." Some walked for six days or took long bus rides to attend the rally after López Obrador called for a nationwide march on the capital. Mexico City police estimated the crowd at 1.1 million.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003131776_alsharpton17m.html
Reverend Sharpton Brings Congregation To Its Feet
Excerpt:
He was a commanding presence on stage Sunday, often leaning into the microphone and booming out a fast-paced message that had the audience of several hundred repeatedly on its feet. He broke into inspirational song toward the end, recapping parts of his colorful past — growing up in a Brooklyn housing project, becoming a child preacher, touring with soul singer James Brown, and surviving lawsuits and an assassination attempt.
Although he's raced through Seattle several times before, he said, this was his first substantial visit. "I like it a lot," he said, mentioning he was impressed with black-community leaders and the people he'd met walking down Martin Luther King Jr. Way and along the waterfront. There are challenges here, too, he added, including a "budding gang problem."
Sharpton took jabs at Bush in the Sunday church service and made reference to the exploding Middle East violence. After the service, he said Israel has the right to protect itself but needs to be careful "not to overreact."
"The irony is that George Bush does not have the moral authority to appeal for peace after his flawed invasion in the same region," Sharpton said.
Several Mount Zion churchgoers said they thought Sharpton's sermon was the best they'd heard in a while.
"It's one thing seeing him on TV, but it's great to see him in person. I thought he was terrific," said Mamie Smith, a member of the Mount Zion congregation for more than 60 years. "I liked his comments on Adam Clayton Powell and Jesse Jackson: Keep the faith, baby, and keep hope alive."
A really great article: Black Preachers Take A Stand
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=5decd75421cd1b3a91e031b36e0f77ec
Good report Dio.
Bro, Charles in Colorado
Dianne,
Thanks for sharing the experience. I know that the media likes to portray clips of Al Sharpton as being of the loony side, but he's very inpiring and impressive.
I found Jessie Jackson to be equally as inspiring.
sparrow -
I loved your freeway blogging adventure!
All of you fasters are amazing and inspirational to us all. I've been reading back and catching up and just reading it all with such pride. We have so many good people here!
As for my plans to challenge my conservative in-laws to watch and listen to something other than fox and rush, we ended up spending the whole time dealing with a family medical emergency, so my plans were put on the back burner. But all is well with the family member.
Maybe next time .....
Thanks for the report, DiAnne.
Al Sharpton impresses me. He knows he's a political figure that intimidates, and he is pretty good at avoiding the political arguments those on the right try to entice him into. I have to laugh when they start on him and he doesn't play into it....he tap dances a minute, then lets loose with a zinger. He's good. He's got his own unique style, but he is a force to be reckoned with and the right knows it. They'll be calling him luney or insincere right to his face, and he'll scoot around their accusations and lambast them with the truth. Kind of like Muhammad Ali - "Float like a butterfly - sting like a bee."
I visited an African American gospel church back home...they really get down and do they ever move! It was fun!
THE MEDIA IS HELPING BUSH SCARE THE POPULACE
Will Bunch, Attytood
A plea to newsmakers: Stop falling for the Bush administration's attempts at fear-mongering rather than governing.
http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/38980/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/bush-on-the-world-stage-_b_25066.html
Bush on the World Stage: While Events Heat Up, the President Hams it Up
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html
From a 2005 article.... I remember reading this before, but I'd forgotten the second paragraph of this quote....
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
You fasters sure have spoken to me these past few days.
We take far too much for granted.
Thanks for literally "putting your money where your mouth is".
And Suz, we are SO PROUD of you going to those churches with your sign, and painting your rocks for all to see!!!!
You guys make me want to do more.
Lopez Obrador Urges Civil Resistance in Mexico
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706Z.shtml
Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the runner-up in Mexico's presidential election, called on a massive crowd Sunday to commit acts of "peaceful civil resistance" to force a vote-by-vote recount. Hundreds of thousands of supporters poured into the Zocalo, chanting: "You are not alone." Some walked for six days or took long bus rides to attend the rally after López Obrador called for a nationwide march on the capital. Mexico City police estimated the crowd at 1.1 million.
{{{The Mexican voters - and Obrador supporters who are demonstrating - demanding a recount are an inspiration...!}}}
Video coverage of "the sh-t heard 'round the world".
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/07/17/newt1.bush.blair.video2.jpg
William Rivers Pitt | Cheerleading the Apocalypse
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706J.shtml
"The fighting between Israel and Lebanon over the course of the last few days presents perhaps the most dangerous moment since the Cuban Missile Crisis. The leadership of Israel and Hezbollah spend the blood of innocents to prove how very tough they are, and the lords of unreason hold sway over all. Syria trembles on the edge of significant involvement, with Iran waiting in the wings," writes William Rivers Pitt.
{{{Be sure to read to the end for a satirical... um, well..., maybe chuckle?}}}
Blowing the Whistle on Diebold
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706P.shtml
On July 13, the Pensacola, Florida-based law firm of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. filed a "qui tam" lawsuit in US District Court, alleging that Diebold and other electronic voting machine companies fraudulently represented to state election boards and the federal government that their products were "unhackable."
Tom Engelhardt | The Force Is Not With Them
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706O.shtml
"The Bush administration came to power as a fundamentalist regime; and here I'm not referring to the Christian fundamentalist faith of our President," writes Tom Engelhardt. "Bush's top officials may not have agreed among themselves on whether End Time would arrive, or even on the domestic social issues of most concern to the Christian religious right in this country, but they were all linked by a singular belief in the efficacy of force."
The New York Times | Abu Ghraib Rewarded
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706N.shtml
"William Haynes II, the Pentagon’s general counsel, has been closely involved in shaping some of the Bush administration’s most legally and morally objectionable policies, notably on the use of torture. The last thing he is suited to be is a federal judge, but that is just what President Bush wants to make him," writes the New York Times Editorial Board.
Corruption Cited in Iraq's Oil Industry
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706M.shtml
US Comptroller General David M. Walker told Congress last week that "massive corruption" and "a lot of theft going on" in Iraq's government-controlled oil industry is hampering the country's ability to govern itself.
Tom Engelhardt | The Force Is Not With Them
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706O.shtml
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2006 02:54 PM
Eery.
Posted by: ralpheh at July 16, 2006 06:38 PM
Redeemer Presbyterian Church? That's a familiar name to me.
When I went to Columbia University, that's where my "friends" at CCC and other campus ministries spent their nights and weekends. (BTW, the CCC at Columbia used to be called KCCC, K for Korean, but so many non-Korean Asians were converted that the K had to be dropped.)
And if Coulter attended that place, I would've been among the first to know. Coulter did NOT attend the place, at least during my college years (mid-1990s).
Posted by: Ally McLesbian at July 16, 2006 11:16 PM
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I think both Coulter's and George Bush's pandering to the religious right is fraudulent, convenient and cynical. Bush only found religion very late in life - around age 40, supposedly - when his business and political life was going nowhere (Bush had run for Congress and lost and his oil company had gone bankrupt).
As far as I know neither Bush nor Cheney regularly attend church. I thought I had heard that Bush's not attending church was explained by the lame excuse that it would cause too much of a security concern etc...
In the Pitt article on TruthOut, there is this bit about those who welcome recent events in the middle east, as they believe they are part of Biblical prophesy. My mom even started in on this and I told her those are not meant to be "self-fulfilling" prophesies that people purposely make happen, because that is insane!
Excerpt (from Cheerleading the Apocalypse - cited just above by NonnyO):
The fundamentalist far-right branch of Christianity that
has established itself as the most powerful force in electoral
politics is heeded by this administration because they owe their
tenure to these people.
A lot of them are thrilled by what is happening in the Middle
East. An internet forum called "Rapture Ready" offers some insight into that particular breed of right-wing Christian who cannot wait for the Apocalypse. "Gosh!!!" writes one poster, "Here we are making plans to move to the east coast and we might not even have to move after all. I say, come quickly Lord!!!"
"Israel is not a land of un-walled villages so this is probably a
war that will result in that," writes another poster. "Then Gog and Magog will come. But I believe we could be raptured before. I believe before Damascus is destroyed God may rescue His children out of there." Yet another poster writes, "In another thread, someone brought up the fact that the kidnapping of the first Israeli soldier that started this whole thing was on June 25th, and if you count from that day to August 3rd ... it is
EXACTLY 40 days!!!!! I find that to be a HUGE coincidence."
--I am still fasting. I had a small cup of Kir at Bastille Day (big mistake) so napped then finally had some watermelon at end of day 3. This is day 4 then will probably stop, have learned alot. For me, I mostly did alot of thinking and refocussing. It was very good timing for seeing Sharpton. I really feel he is in the Civil Rights Social Justice tradition of the 1960s, in direct lineage. That is the direction to go after Katrina, wars based on lies, cuts to HeadStart etc. A teacher today showed me her "Bush Embarrassmints" and her "Indictmints" - I thought it was clever but apparently some others she showed looked at her like the was an antisocial, unpatriotic wierdo.
Ralpheh
I think Bush only attends church for PR stunts.
NonnyO
Great pics here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1648224
Thanks for not forgetting the stolen Mexican election.
Also plan to go to BC & get a feel for how people feel about Harper. This hemisphere seems to be going to pot. I'm sure deals are being struck about soft wood, immigrants etc.
Some news from an Intern in Israel who is a Quaker:
I'm safe - we'll just get that out of the way.
On top of the many things that keep me busy
of late, I need to accost the Ministry of interior this week or go toJordan. I'm scared, either way. Everyone has different advice - go toTel Aviv, to Jerusalem and force my way in, to Cyprus, to Jordan, toDubai... An alternate suggestion - what if I just let my visa expire and don't leave Bethlehem? Well, then whenever I do leave I'll be told I can never return.
My mother had recently arrived when I last wrote. She left this morning at 4:30 am. I accompanied her through the checkpoint to wait for the shared taxi to the airport. I'd never been through the checkpoint quite that early. There was already a huge line of
workers waiting until the checkpoint would be opened and they could,hopefully, be allowed through with their permits. The line was huge,wrapped down the side of the wall and on into the street. I knew thishappened, I'd just never been there to see it. People sleeping on theground against the wall, in the dark, waiting to wait and go to work.The main gate was opened specially so my mother and I could passthrough. When I came back thirty minutes later the line had tripled inlength. There would be another two and a half hours before anyone was
let through.
Two nights ago we went to see film in the Jerusalem film festival.
Coming back at midnight I saw a good 20 detainees sitting in front ofthe old checkpoint, facing the wall. I wasn't able to tell my motherfast enough for her to see as well.
I went to Bil'in on Friday and took my mother. The violence from themilitary was pretty standard. Someone threw a very large rock at theunhelmeted head of a Druze commander early on and that started thingsoff. I'm really not sure how much to say about what happened. There wasa lot of tear gas, and a lot of sound bombs. Naji and I were surprisedthat a soldier put his gun through an old man's drum. My mother was surprised to see the soldiers violence towards small children, whereas we took this as unremarkable and something to be expected.
The news is different. Instead of people talking about how many were killed today in Gaza we've shifted to how many have been killed in Lebanon, how many in Haifa, the shooting down of an F-16... Basem and I discussed our continuing and growing feeling of safety in Bethlehem. Nassar has taken to being amazed by President Bush's statements. I'm busier being disgusted with the G8. Restraint, but not a ceasefire?
That says what, exactly? Please, keep the massacres to a minimum or we might have to care.
One day of Arabic lessons impressed on me that I really must find someone in Bethlehem rather than on the other side of the checkpoint. Roger Waters signed the Wall on the inside of the Bethlehem checkpoint. I prefer the "will open soon" on the inside of the old gate.
If I don't wrap this up now it'll be weeks before I'm writing emails again. It's my birthday soon. I'm putting plants in my windowsills and pictures on the walls at home. I'm taking more pictures lately, I'm writing.
hallas, I must go
salamat
Sarah
And finally: A microphone picked up President Bush’s private conversations with other world leaders at the G8 summit. Bush on Putin’s flight home: “You eight hours? Me too. Russia’s a big country and you’re a big country. … Russia’s big and so is China.” Bush on Blair’s departure: “Yo Blair, what’re you doing? Are you leaving?” “Bush also remarked that some of the speakers at the meeting had the tendency to talk too long.”
(Center for American Progress)
This is a transcript from this morning. I like the part about Yo, Blair: you got a big one and I got a big one.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13901534/
BUSH ACTING LIKE A FOOL AGAIN (swearing into open mics):
What do you think of the president's cussing in this case?
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/bush-curses-hezbollahs-actions-at-g-8/20060717081909990004?cid=2449
His frustration is understandable 70%
He should've been more careful 30%
Total Votes: 475,147
Note on Poll Results
What do you think of the U.S.'s handling of the current Mideast crisis?
Poor job 38%
Good job 31%
Fair job 22%
I haven't followed the response 9%
Total Votes: 457,088
Note on Poll Results
The news networks seem to be showing a great deal of file footage that seem to be geared at stirring up a great deal of fear. Or is it just me?
Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at July 17, 2006 06:06 PM
...it ain't you.
It's a sensational nation!
Fib at eleven.
Lieberman in trouble:
(from Dump Joe website)
Michael Ware, Time Magazine's Baghdad Bureau Chief on Lieberman:
"I and some other journalists had lunch with Senator Joe Lieberman the other day and we listened to him talking about Iraq. Either Senator Lieberman is so divorced from reality that he's completely lost the plot or he knows he's spinning a line. Because one of my colleagues turned to me in the middle of this lunch and said he's not talking about any country I've ever been to and yet he was talking about Iraq, the very country where we were sitting."
Holy Joe, Lying and Faking???
Fakin' It
Liberal Oasis uncovers, and the official blog confirms, that Joe Lieberman is using a fake Ned Lamont bumper sticker in ads in order to attack Lamont's campaign. Here's a handy comparison:
picture
And it's not like this fake sticker is meant as a joke, or is tangential to the charges in the ad itself. No, the ad - which was played to a national audience in its entirety on the C-SPAN feed of Thursday's debate - centers its charges almost entirely around this entirely fictitious bumper sticker. Watch the video on YouTube (via Spazeboy).
Again. The Lieberman campaign hired someone to create an immaculate fake of a Ned Lamont bumper sticker, in an obvious attempt to deceive voters. They even put a fake URL on it to make it look official. They then produced an attack ad whose charges were based on this fake bumper sticker. And they've been running the ad like crazy ever since. (Although, tellingly, it's not up on Joe's website).
Yet another example of "principled" Senator Joseph Lieberman in action.
Suz
Yes it was so cool about the freeway blogging on rocks!
If you didn't get a chance, take photos!!!
From the previous thread:
Well Ally, now I am certainly curious about your words about Ann Coulter being trans.
Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at July 17, 2006 12:42 AM
Truth, it's not been definitely proven, but there are a few links worth looking at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ann_Coulter/Archive_4#Supposed_evidence_Ann_may_have_been_born_intersexual
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2005/03/mann-coulter.html
http://journals.aol.com/richardbk8/TheSentryNewsDigest/entries/811
Besides, right-wing politics is surprisingly common in the circles of transgender "women," and if Ann were trans, she'd be just another of them. I've learned the far right notions that healthcare is not a right, and that a national sales tax must replace the income tax, from the transwomen's circles.
Some say that Coulter must be nailed for what she is - a mean-spirited demagogue, not a tranny - and that all this talk about Coulter's supposed gender is pointless. But I feel that exposing Coulter as a tranny further highlights his/her hypocrisy. I've had enough of the right-wing selling out in the transwomen and gay men's circles.
Can someone please explain why the French and Italians stuck in Lebanon are being expeditiously evacuated by their country and yet ABC evening news reports that only 56 of 25,000 Americans in Lebanon have been evacuated. Lets all pray for their safety, a close friend's uncle is stuck there, but it sure is starting to sound like another Katrina evacuation.
Ok, so I'm not fasting today. But since I was in AA, I went to paint the "mother of all rocks" since the Art fair is coming up in two days and hopefully more masses will see it. It's a HUGE rock, as I'm sure madame and oncall probably remember.
It's essentially the size of a spaceship. I had enough surface area to paint 5 sides. Though I still couldn't reach the top of it.
Below is the description of what I wrote...
Side one facing the road best said, "Support our Troops. END the Iraq Occupation"
Side two facing the main road, but with a smaller surface area said, "Bush" up high. Then I drew a picture of "Bush as the pinnochio president" with the REALLY LONG NOSE... and in a bubble coming out of his mouth was the words, "WMD, 9-11, Terra' alert"... And then below the picture with those words I placed the word "speak." So essentially "Bush Speak" frames the picture.
Side three facing the main road says, "Millionaires (big red heart) WAR"
Next side which faced a lesser used road said, "Had Enough?"
And on the last side with the smaller surface area and facing the main side street, I drew a huge peace sign.
It took approximately four hours to get the whole rock painted. And I got so light headed I couldn't remember how to spell speak! I was glad I had decided this morning to eat today so I would have the energy to do this. As it is, I think there's not a muscle in my body that isn't in misery right now.
I did take pictures, but I probably won't be able to get them developed right away to post here. And I was pleased to see people actually walked up to the rock to view all of it all the way around.
AA is pretty progressive, but it also has a huge Republican base too that I didn't know about until I worked on the minimum wage campaign last year.
In the meantime, I saw my rock that said, "Blessed are the Peace Makers" was still intact. (Yay!)
So that's about it.
Here is a great clip from the Colbert Report on the Lieberman/Lamont primary and "The Kiss".
http://www.myleftnutmeg.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2094
It is curious to see Bush grab Lieberman's head as Bush enters Congress (at a state of the union speech?) and pull him close... almost bizarre and rude.
Suz
Even if it's a week from now - would love to see them on here!
Maybe on one of our "Art" Saturdays, with your description!
I love stuff like this. Believe me, people do notice.
Then I went back to the Catholic church and I had missed their next entrance of worshippers, so I took myself to the next big rock in the next small town.
On that rock, I painted, "Blessed are the Peacemakers" and then within the yellow ribbons I had drawn with markers, I wrote, "Bring 'em HOME NOW!" (Of course if it rains, those markers will run right off! lol...but they did look nice for now.)
The next rock I drove to to paint, I opted to leave alone. How could I remove, "In memory of Ben" So that one is there.
The last big rock that I thought existed between two other towns I couldn't find. They either moved it or I was wrong to think it existed.
So that's my excitement for the day.
Posted by: Suz at July 16, 2006 02:22 PM
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I have submitted the Iraq Withdrawal Resolution (the one that passed in Kalamazoo county Dem Party, Michigan) to several Democrats in Washtenaw County. I received this response from one of the Washtenaw Dem Officers:
Steve, I think what this person is suggesting is that we adopt a resolution to this effect at our County Convention for forwarding to the State Party's Resolution Committee. As a veteran I fully endorse these proposals and if noone else can be found I would willingly introduce them at the pre-convention resolutions committee meeting. However, I often feel that as chair I should refrain from this. Let me know if you can't find somone. Also, as to Sat. exec committee meeting I would ask that you make an effort to be there even if you expect to be late. You will need to explain changes and rationales for the changes to the by laws. -graham
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Gray"
To: "Flolebus@aol.com"
CC: "David M. Shindell" , "graham teall"
Subject: Re: Iraq resolutions - Passed in Kalamazoo County Dems, proposed in Calhoun Co
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2006 14:59:53 -0400
Rolf,
I rec'd your phone message earlier and I'm sorry I wasn't able to get back to you. We don't really have a good structure for for handling resolutions under our current by-laws so I wan't to check with party leadership here about the best way to handle this. I would think at the very least we'd need a WCDP member to introduce this (which I assume you aren't). I will check with leadership here and get back with you.
Steve
On 7/7/06, Flolebus@aol.com wrote:
Can you get this done in Washtenaw and then take it to the State party convention?
Posted by: Ira at July 17, 2006 06:53 PM
Well, that's what tax cut does, unfortunately. When one calls for a tax cut and a smaller government, that's what he/she gets - to a point where the government cannot perform essential functions.
This is an observation I made at the Marine base I work at, and posted to my blog. I wanted to crosspost here, since I am touching on the incompetence of W as commander-in-chief (which we all care about) and the aftermath of the Korean War, where these Marines sacrificed their lives (my specialty).
-----------------------------------------------
My work on a Marines installation takes me to various memorials to the troops who gave their lives for the country. This includes a conference room, which memorializes two Marines from the American heartland who gave their lives during the Korean War.
These men grew up during very difficult times; the Great Depression was during their childhood, and as they entered their teens, World War II demanded further sacrifices. And when yet another conflict - this time, in a faraway land they probably had never heard of - occurred, they bravely volunteered to serve. When their battle groups were under heavy enemy attack, they blocked an enemy grenade, or otherwise gave their lives, to protect the rest of the group, and to contribute to winning the battle.
The Korean War was a textbook example on why the civilian President, as Commander-in-Chief, has to be the voice of reason. First, Harry Truman understood the gravity of the situation enough to have a doctrine of containing the communist influence, well before war broke out in Korea. Then, he used diplomacy to get the United Nations to send a multinational force to quell the conflict - sixteen nations, including the United States, fought alongside the South Korean forces. When General Douglas MacArthur wanted to fight an all-out war, not only against North Korea but also against China, USSR, and all other communist nations, Truman sacked him, wisely deciding that wearing the communist camp out through containment was a much safer option than nuclear annihilation of the entire world. (However, South Korean conservatives, including then-President Syngman Rhee, have never forgiven Truman - and the Democrats - for this decision.)
Fast forward to today, with W as Commander-in-Chief. I am always reminded of that as I see W's photo everywhere, captioned the "Honorable" George W. Bush. Unfortunately, there is nothing honorable about W and his war conduct. Rather than giving the voice of reason to the military, he has been even more of a madman than the military commanders, diverting American war efforts from the real enemy, the Taliban in Afghanistan, to a personal/oil industry pet project, Iraq. He pretends to be the ultimate authority in military affairs, even though his Vietnam-era military service details are sketchy at best. And the worst of it is, he is using tools like Fox News to brainwash the soldiers, so that they think they are fighting a noble war in Iraq, Iran, Syria, and elsewhere, when in fact they aren't. And the level of brainwashing is absolutely scary; combined with the false perception that Republicans are more pro-military and the doctrines of the Christian fundamentalists, the soldiers are worshipping W like the newest Christian prophet that he pretends to be, ready to go on more and more Crusades.
Back to the two Marines who gave their lives in Korea, I look at them and see two wasted lives. The US involvement in South Korea, lasting through today, has not always been a positive influence. South Korean democratic institutions, and its very sovereignty, have been hampered by excessive US meddling, especially during the Republican administrations (the worst were in the Richard Nixon - Park Chung Hee era and the Ronald Reagan - Chun Doo Hwan era). The relationship between the two nations have benefited only the right wing of the two, not everyone; Korea has always been a pet project of American conservatives like Sam Brownback and the Concerned Women for America, and it's been the right-wingers in South Korea who want continued high levels of US military presence, against the wishes of the people of South Korea - and both the left and the right of the United States. (This includes moving the US Army command in Seoul to a location an hour to the south, a project I may be involved in in the future.) The students, the labor, and other activists, including everyday civilians, have suffered immensely on both sides as a result of this relationship, particularly in 1980 and in 1983, and this must change. Unfortunately, the current free trade talks between the two countries, the biggest such agreement for the US since NAFTA, will only further strengthen the hands of the right wingers, and put the students, labor, and other activists further into the hole.
Suz -
YOU ROCK!!!!!
(sorry - that was bad, I know).
Can not wait to see the pics!!
Posted by: monkey at July 17, 2006 06:25 PM
Silly me.
I was sitting there this evening while eating dinner, watching PBS and Jim Lehrer's New Hour. They had a speaker from Israel on, presenting their side of the present conflict between the Hezbollah and Israel, and a speaker on from Syria, and it was interesting and informative.
Then they had Judy Woodruff come on and interview two Americans with differing viewpoints on the same subject. One of those men looked really fake, and shallow. Period. Before he even spoke, I felt he was a paid shill. He said through his perfect teeth (he could talk while smiling realllly big) that this conflict doesn't mean there is a less stable Middle East, yadda yadda. The guy was freakin' acting.
It dawned on me that I am being "taught" by PAID professionals through the media.
Yes, I knew it before. But it really smacked me today. Some of these talking heads don't even BELIEVE what they are saying. They are being PAID to say it.
O.M.G.
Watch the video of Bush and the swearing incident. He doesn't even have any table manners, the clod. What the hell did Laura ever see in this loser?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/posts/2006/07/17/ezra-has-a-point-on-bush-and-his-remark-about-syria/
If what the Syrian Ambassador to the United States said tonight on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer is true, Americans haven't been told the entire truth about the present conflict between Hezbollah and Israel.
Israeli, Syrian Ambassadors Speak Out on the Middle East
Israeli Ambassador to the United States Daniel Ayalon and Syrian Ambassador to the United States Imad Moustapha discuss the escalation of violence in the Middle East and the possibilities of a cease-fire.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec06/ambassadors_07-17.html
Posted by: Carol at July 17, 2006 08:15 PM
Funny you should ask. She really seems to be a positive, classy lady. Baffling.
Dianne,
It ain't art by any stretch of the imagination...but thank you.
Posted by: ralpheh at July 17, 2006 07:33 PM
I think AA already passed an out of Iraq resolution. Please pm me with more detail and information in the forum.
Posted by: Carol at July 17, 2006 07:37 PM
Thanks Carol. And here I thought I was all mush!
I want to touch base on one last thing before I collapse for the night.
I have to admit to lots of confusion and unsure feelings about the situation in Israel and Lebenon, etc...I was on a list which I felt was getting progressively more anti-semetic and they forwarded to me a PDA announcement against Israel. Since then, I've been even more confused about how to handle what was happening there.
So when I wasn't painting today, I also went to a few places, like a Jewish Temple and a Christian church (that I knew had had missions in Israel). And I asked them some questions. Both sides 'educated me' on what Israel has been facing that I haven't been hearing on the news. And both sides said that Hezbolah initiated a war with the silent support of other Islamic nations.
One place informed me that Hezbolah has many seats in the Lebanese gov't. I didn't know this. And I heard on Ed Schultz that most of Lebanon are Shiites who would support Hezbolah over their own gov't. That was another thing I didn't know. Hense, the long-and-short of it is that Hezbolah is a part of the Lebanese gov't which means they intentionally entered a soveriegn land and kidnapped soldiers. They intend to pass these soldiers to another country. (Maybe Syria maybe Iran) But they described the borders to me to show me how this was happening.
Now, they went over the historical events in Israel that I'm not going to go into in depth. However, one person reminded me that a long time ago, ( 85), 3 Israelites were kidnapped. Israel relased over 1150 militants in exchange for their kidnapped citizens. Only ONE came back alive. YET--Israel had kept their word and had released all of those militants who probably have returned to the same path of destroying Israel.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-06-israel-no-deals_x.htm
This is why Israel will not negotiate with Hezbolah for these peoples' safe return.
Furthermore, I was told (and Ed Schultz said it too) that a week ago Israel dropped leaflets into the city to warn them to leave before Israel went in. I learned that Israel ALWAYS does this because they know the world's eye's are upon them. So they encourage everyone to get out so that there will not be civilian deaths. How many countries do that?
At anyrate, after listening and going to different places, I've decided to take my name off the PDA list and that other email list.
I'm not a hawk but I'm not a complete dove either. But now I feel more informed about the choice I'm making and the position I'm taking.
Suz,
I too have been confused, and trying to sort my feelings on the present conflict.
I have been told before to always listen to both sides of every argument, that there might be shreds of truth in each argument.
I was shocked at what the Syrian ambassador said tonight on PBS. It is all in the transcript at the URL I posted above.
I am not taking sides, but it was eye opening for me.
Suz, thanks for the updates and your input.
I don't expect a Christian mission to Israel to be the most unbiased of sources. However, I do know that on the Muslim side, there are too many barbaric terrorists out there to count. In fact, I'm probably the least pro-Muslim member of the DCP, because I'm fed up with Sharia law, honor killings, and other evil stories coming out of that part of the world.
I am not taking sides, and maybe never will. This is a religiously motivated conflict, has always been, will always be. And as long as the religious doctrines call for "conversion or death," the conflict will not stop.
To clarify my position:
We can always go on and on arguing that Islam is a religion of peace, and that honor killings are not part of the Islamic belief systems. However, the reality is that honor killings ARE almost exclusively an Islamic phenomenon. The reality is that Sharia laws are being rolled out in more Muslim regions. And the reality is that martyrdom brings you to heaven with 72 maidens. The practice of religion has been tainted with violence and barbarism, and I have to take that into account. (Of course, radical Christianity in the United States is getting very close too.)
It is also worth noting that even as the progressive movement steadfastly defends the Muslim side in the Israeli conflicts, the fact is that someone like me will have far better luck in Israel than in any of the surrounding Islamic nations. Israel may be cracking down hard on the Palestinians (and I strongly disapprove of that), but Israel also takes asylum requests from LGBT Palestinians who are in danger in their own Muslim territories. And even outside the Palestine, the fact remains that NOT a single Muslim nation is LGBT-friendly.
These are factors that I must take into account when discussing any Judeo-Muslim or Christo-Muslim conflicts. Of course, I do not approve of Israel's use of excessive force, nor the special favors it receives from American neocons. But the Muslim world is NOT a friend of progressives either.
Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at July 17, 2006 08:53 PM
Israel would claim any prisoners are militants who are involved in the "infitada".
All of this is beyond our immagination. They lived for years with the threat of war from all five of their neighboring countries. Their neighbors want their annialation. Israel may be able to 'pack a punch' with a war, but nobody can easily stand up against a whole regime who wants to kill your citizens. They put explosives on women to make them look pregnant and then send them into civilian places to explode and kill others.
Also, as Ed Schultz pointed out, Israel has given them everything they wanted. They left Gaza. They left the northerm part of Israel where the Lebanese and Hezbolah were tossing in bombs.
What I understand from my conversations today (notice I went to two religious sects for answers hoping to get clarity on this!) is that before Hezbolah had rocks and grenades. Then they had short distance missiles. Now they have LONG DISTANCE missiles that can reach farther than ever before! Who is supplying them?
Syria?
Lebanon?
Iran?
Who? Because these long range missiles make a world of difference.
Ally,
Before today, I thought I was a dove.
Now I'm not sure.
Suz, Truth Shall Prevail
I've been trying to make sense of the situation in the middle east for a long time. I would have to join those not taking sides but hoping that an agreement can be reached. I would like to see a Palestinian state and question the number of expansions of Israel over time, but the main priority is peace.
Jimmy Carter wrote one of the most insightful books on the Middle East and I do believe he worked very hard on the crisis, way back when. On 9/11, my first reaction was to go to the library and get more books but they only made me more confused. To get more balance, it might be instructive to not only go to a Christian church and to a Jewish synagogue, but to a Muslim mosque. We have one here, so maybe I'll do that. I did it after 9/11 and in fact we protected it, as someone tried to destroy it.
It's as though everyone has a legitimate side, in their own mind. Someone who may think Israel reacted disproportionately would not necessarily be anti-Semitic. There is alot of anti-Semitism or maybe more properly anti-Zionism in the middle east. Then there are Israeli "hardliners" who to me seem like neocons, and in fact are not very popular with ordinary Israelis (sound like our situation?) I also don't think it's unusual to have radical groups with seats in government in the middle east or in any coalition government. Certain governments may label certain organizations terrorist organizations and refuse to negotiate or communicate with them and others may see it differently. That's like a complete difference in perception and "framing."
It's necessary to realize that the issues creating most of the problems go back decades, and some, centures. Probably the biggest mistake our government has made is not understanding it in more depth before getting involved. Publicly linking 9/11 with Iraq when this would only work partially for domestic consumption is one example.
My conclusion so far is that I would never take a "side" at this point - there are extremists on all sides and many innocent civilians stuck in the middle. Israel may agree to cease-fire without insisting Hezbollah be completely dismantled. That looks like our best hope at this time. It'll be hard for all of this to die down though, as Israel and Lebanon were fighting hard when my son was a baby. There will be lingering resentments for a long time, as in Iraq and other conflicted areas. People are also given false information, on all sides, from Fox News to its equivalents in the middle east.
I was sent a couple of very interesting articles in the last two days that got me thinking:
- In a surprising about face, Sunnis in Iraq want us NOT to get out of of Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/17/world/middleeast/17sunnis.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
(Maybe it's not so surprising and consider how many countries have Shiite majorities, often poor. Saddam was a Sunni and his party was taken out of power but now the Shiites are able to rise up, plus they can have linkages with those in Iran, Syria etc. & now this appears to tie in even to Hezbollah in Lebanon.)
- Afghanistan Is No One's WAR
http://www.canadawebpages.com/pc-editorial.asp?Key=2360&editorType=article&editorPrimeKeyword=chuckman&editorLink=
Posted by: Suz at July 17, 2006 09:11 PM
Suz, I was never a dove (though I'm not exactly a hawk either).
In fact, the so-called "doves" have declared war on me, for disturbing the "sacred" liberal notion that nonwhites cannot possibly be hatemongers themselves. (But then, you saw me discuss this with DiAnne in one of the recent threads.) It's this dangerously "sacred" notion that keeps the progressives supporting the Muslim world at all costs, whether they deserve it or not. It's also this "sacred" notion that's keeping my cry for help unheard in the white LGBT communities, as I battle the deep-rooted homophobia of ethnic communities.
As we were driving home yesterday from Pennsylvania, deep in the heart of the republican center of the state, near Tyrone, we passed a set of billboards.
I was heartened to see the one that said in huge letters:
TRY PEACE
Jesus, Gandhi, and Buddha did....
(I missed the rest because we were going too fast).
I wish the middle east would just try peace. In the eternal words of Rodney King:
"Why can't we all just get along?"
In the eternal words of Rodney King: "Why can't we all just get along?"
Posted by: Carol at July 17, 2006 09:23 PM
Good question. And if my understanding of the Quran is correct, it also tells the believer to treat Christians and Jews as brothers under the common faith of God.
Of course, the Muslim radicals (in fact, all of the Judeo-Christo-Muslim radicals) have forgotten that part, and only memorized the "convert or kill" part.
Here's a little hope from the Dixie Chicks:
Sunday morning, I heard the preacher say
Thou shall not kill
I don't wanna, hear nothin' else, about killin'
And that it's God's will
Cuz our children are watching us
They put their trust in us
They're gonna be like us
So let's learn from our history
And do it differently
CHORUS:
I hope
For more love, more joy and laughter
I hope
We'll have more than we'll ever need
I hope
We'll have more happy ever afters
I hope
We can all live more fearlessly
And we can lose all the pain and misery
I hope, I hope
Oh Rosie, her man he gets too rough
And all she can say, is he's a good man
He don't mean no harm
He was just brought up that way
But our children are watching us
They put their trust in us
They're gonna be like us
It's okay for us to disagree
We can work it out lovingly
For I hope
For more love, more joy and laughter
I hope
You'll have more than you'll ever need
I hope
You'll have more happy ever afters
I hope
And you can all live more fearlessly
And you can lose all your pain and misery
I hope, I hope
There must be a way to change what's going on
No, I don't have all the answers
I hope
For more love, more joy and laughter
I hope
you'll have more than you'll ever need
I hope
There'll be more happy ever afters
I hope
We can all live more fearlessly
And we can lose all the pain and misery
I hope, I hope
I hope
I hope
I hope
So I went to http://www.juancole.com, which I often do (next will be Robert Fisk, who should still be living in Lebanon).
Gleanings:
Olmert's conditions (for Israel ceasing hostilities):
1. The return of two captured Israeli soldiers held by Hizbullah
2. A withdrawal of Hizbullah to the Litani River, 30 mi. or so north of the Israeli border deeper into Lebanon.
3. Cessation of rocket attacks on Israel
Juan says:
It is worth noting that if this is what Israel wants, two of the three could have been gotten without reducing the entire country of Lebanon to rubble. They could have traded 3 Hizbullah members in their custody for the 2 Israeli soldiers. And, if they hadn't gone wild bombing everything in sight it is unlikely Hizbullah would have shelled them on this scale in the first place.
As for the demand that Hizbullah withdraw (presumably this means its paramilitary fighters) to the Litani, that talking point will inspire the profoundest fear in the Lebanese that Israel is essentially attempting to move its border north and make the Litany the new border, thus staking a clear claim on the waters of the river, which Israelis have coveted since 1948. It is a non-starter politically, though whether it can be attained with violence is yet to be seen.
Then he addresses Nusrallah of Hezbollah:
He said in an eerily calm and calculating voice that he had aimed his rockets only at military targets, not at Israeli settlements "in Occupied northern Palestine" (i.e. Israel). In contrast, he said, the Israeli military had from the beginning targeted civilians. (In fact, Nasrallah's katyushas are impossible to aim with any precision and in loosing them on Israel, he inevitably killed and wounded civilians; likewise in Haifa. His opening statement is a self-serving lie.)
He complained at length about Israeli airstrikes against civilian targets. He linked hitting the Israeli warship to Israel's airstrikes on Baalbak [where they hit a Husayniyah or Shiite mourning center].
He added,
"We arose to strike at the city of Haifa, and we know the importance and grave significance of this city. Had we targeted with our missiles the chemical and petrochemical factories, an enormous catastrophe would have ensued for the inhabitants of that area. But we deliberately avoided those factories, which were in the sites of our missiles, since we were eager not to push things toward the unknown and were eager that this weapon be a weapon not of revenge but of defense . . . a weapon that would return the crazies in the Olmert government to a modicum of reason and save them from a grandiosity complex, or, I might say, the stupidity whereby they distinguish themselves . . . But because we set those targets aside this time does not mean that we we always adopt this position. At any point where we consider that we are involved in defending our nation and our people and our families, we will resort to all means we can in pursuit of that defense . . . "
(-my translation)
He also denied that there were any Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Lebanon or that he had had Iranian help. He said people were always putting down the Arabs and saying they could not accomplish anything, but, he said, look at the Israeli warship in flames. That was an Arab accomplishment.
Uh, wouldn't an Arab accomplishment be more like, oh, inventing something or building up something nice? Destroying things and killing people is not an accomplishment.
I watched in horror as this maniacal speech unfolded in which Nasrallah actually threatened the Israelis with releasing chemical gas from local factories on civilians in Haifa. Despite fighting them for all those years, he clearly does not understand the Israelis' psyche or the trauma of the Holocaust. A threat like that. The Israelis don't like being caught in a quagmire any more than the next person, which is why Nasrallah could get them to leave southern Lebanon. But his victory appears to have given him megalomania, and he has now gone too far.
Hizbullah's attacks on Israeli civilians are war crimes. The killing of the civilians in Haifa at the train station was a war crime. And threatening to release chemicals from factories on civilian populations is probably a war crime in itself, much less the doing of it.
Obviously, I do not accept that Hizbullah's actions justify the wholesale indiscriminate destruction and slaughter in which the Israelis have been engaged against the Lebanese in general. But they do have every right to defend themselves against Nasrallah and his mad bombers.
Phalange leader Karim Pakradouni says that Israel might well destroy Lebanon, but it cannot destroy Hizbullah. He said that the Israelis are making the same mistake now with regard to the Shiite party as it did in 1982 with regard to trying to destroy Yasser Arafat's PLO. Padradouni said that the Phalangists, who once maintained a significant paramilitary, would not remilitarize and were supporting Lebanese President Emile Lahoud. Lahoud, an ex-general and a Maronite Christian, is pro-Syrian and soft on Hizbullah.
More from the Pope. A Vatican statement said:
"As in the past, the Holy See condemns both the terrorist attacks on the one side and the military reprisals on the other." It stated that Israel's right to self-defence "does not exempt it from respecting the norms of international law, especially as regards the protection of civilian populations."
Ally
Progressives need to sort out their Muslims, just as they need to sort out their Koreans and their Christians - they should not lump them all together, just as Anne Coulter should not lump all progressives ("liberals") together as "Godless."
It requires alot of picky analysis about things we didn't necessarily plan to go into depth on, but it's about our survival and decision making.
We need to see in nuances. Speaking of "nuances," I just read Esquires big national survey on US Males and even though their sample elected Bush by a nice margin, Kerry would now win in their world were the election held again today. Buyer's remorse, documented. The other surprising observation was that although high percentages were "religious," low percentages actually attended church often. The aetheist/agnostic numbers were larger than anticipated.
Then I was reading Jim Hightower's big economic survery of the US and wondered why so many of us have so little power - it had alot of information about which income groups pay what amount of taxes etc. It turns out 18 families in the US have been largely responsible for changes in our tax law (estate tax, dividend tax break etc). The top 1% own as much as the bottom 90% (these numbers are close - I can look them up). So there do not need to be many ultrarich families for them to gain power over our government. It's like some kingdom of old.
I am a dove.
I was born a dove.
It turns out 18 families in the US have been largely responsible for changes in our tax law (estate tax, dividend tax break etc).
Posted by: DiAnne at July 17, 2006 09:32 PM
Makes this all the more obscene in our nation.
Just so that these 18 families (Forbes, Walton, and who else?) can maintain their stranglehold on the economy, I have to be denied healthcare coverage (and possibly die from it), so many veterans have to go homeless after risking their lives on the battlefield, and so forth.
The picture is very wrong.
Fisk
http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/200843/&mod=print
Hard to track down but always worth it. It's not always easy to sleep then.
Ally
Waltons for sure, & the people who make M&Ms.
I'm going to boycott M&Ms now.
suz: thanks suz for trying to understand what is going on in Israel. Since I have been a child I have heard generation after generation of miltants ready to kill Israelis, and drive them into the ocean, to the execution of the Olympic Weights lifters to the constant state of war they live in. I can't imagine any other country that would endure threats to its existence that would then be questioned whenever they respond militarily. If I saw rockets being launched into my neighborhood I would expect my government to do nothing less in response. Palestinans were offered a homeland in 1948 by Israel and turned it down and they were then rejected by bordering countries; that is why they have no homeland. Unfortunately any possibility at peace in the Middle East ended when Arafat rejected Bill Clinton's peace overtures. In 5 years Bush has totally ignored any kind of Arab Israeli peace prospects and like Korea, the only thing that has flourished there is more hatred and militants. Just like the missed opportunity to healthcare reform, I doubt any of us will be around to see peace of any sort in the Middle East again.
As a progressive I am troubled when I hear some from the left like I heard today call into Ed Schultz and other talk radio stations and eviscorate Israel for defending its citizens.
drive them into the sea,
Ira
I'm glad you made a comparison between Clinton's efforts and Bush's efforts. I think that's the important distinction and I agree about missed opportunities. I think we are going to hear alot of knee-jerk stuff. I'm glad people come here to educate themselves & others & that it is a learning process.
In 5 years Bush has totally ignored any kind of Arab Israeli peace prospects and like Korea, the only thing that has flourished there is more hatred and militants.
Posted by: Ira at July 17, 2006 09:41 PM
In both Israel and Korea, W destroyed Clinton's hard work at fostering peace. Clinton tried to work with all parties. W snubbed them (both Koreas, in the Korean case).
Unfortunately, back in Koreatown, that's why W is popular - he "stood up" to Kim Jong Il while Clinton and the leftist South Korean regimes "cowered," according to them.
Fisk article ends interestingly -
The Israelis were yesterday trumpeting the fact that the missile was made in Iran as proof of Iran's involvement in the Lebanon war. This was odd reasoning. Since almost all the missiles used to kill the civilians of Lebanon over the past four days were made in Seattle, Duluth and Miami in the United States, their use already suggests to millions of Lebanese that America is behind the bombardment of their country.
I'm glad people come here to educate themselves & others & that it is a learning process.
Posted by: DiAnne at July 17, 2006 09:44 PM
That's why DCP is such a wonderful place. The worst that happens here is to respectfully disagree.
Dianne:
It took Clinton and Albright a lot of effort and countless trips and meetings to have brought the peace process as far as it was in 2001 when he left office. Had Bush not been such a lazy ass and instead traveled to Israel in the months following his coronation we might not be seeing the debacle on CNN that we all endured this weekend. Fixing healthcare and bringing stability to the Middle East takes a lot of work that this slackard is simply not interested in. The next President will really have their hands full when they assume office. I just hope they are up to the myriad of problems that will be left on their desk.
Dianne are you suggesting that the missiles being shot into Israel from Lebanon were made by Ratheon? I have not heard that before? If that is accurate would you please post your source.
You know, it is seeming to me that alot of the problem Israel faces in the middle east is the perception about its linkage with US. There is a linkage (friendship, funding, history) but the perception is not always accurate. It seems that when the US does something unpopular in the middle east (such as get involved in conflict in Iraq), Israel is seen as involved in it whether it is or not. & then when Israel is involved in a conflict (as now), US is assumed to be involved in it, behind it, waiting opportunistically or whatever.
It seems to be a problem of perception, and when rumors fly, conspiracy theory reigns.
I mean, I just received an email with "court" information about the Oklahoma City bombings - one of the widows has a lawsuit and according to this, there were more people involved and the FBI had foreknowledge but didn't stop it. This may not be true, just like with alot of the speculation about 9/11, we don't really know the truth. This feeds conspiracy and speculation.
I'm convinced this happens in the middle east all the time and feeds interlocking nets of anti-Arab and anti-Israeli conspiracy theory and propaganda. We are not the only people who need to seek to educate ourselves and who have to seek to do it through a confusing and conflicting web of information of dubious accuracy and quality.
It's so easy to think, "I need to figure out what my position is on this." I just don't think it's possible to do it that easily any more. We may have to refine and revise every single day, whether it be the situation(s) in the middle east, or "moral" issues such as stem cell, abortion, gay rights, social security, poverty.
Ira
My source is Robert Fisk in the newspaper article I cited by him and he does not say where he gets his information. He has lived in Lebanon for years and I think he has a leftist bias but I do read him as one source. His articles always sound subjective, like op-eds, yet he's been around the block. He made me wonder, but I can't substantiate what he said. As I just wrote, I do think there is the "perception" in the middle east that US and Israel are constantly connected for foreign policy and that we are behind what they do or they are behind what we do. I'm not saying it's true, or to what extent it may be true, I'm just saying that it seems to be a huge assumption in the middle east.
Ira
I think it's an assumption not just in the middle east but also in the progressive alternative press, such as Air America and the blogosphere. I think this is where alot of the knee-jerk stuff comes from. Suppose we do fund Israel and help Israel - that doesn't mean we stage-manage every move they make, but I do think there are those who believe this. I cannot imagine the conspiracy theories that are going around. I can never decide which are scarier - the conspiracy theories or the truth we don't know.
that is not the same Robert Frisk that was a prosecutor in Iran Contra?
If he is trying to equate our selling weapons to a democracy like Israel with that of Iran selling rockets to hesbala, then his logic is convaluted.
yes we sell arms to Israel, Great Britain, France, Canada, etc., is there a point he is making? And many of those arms were made at Ratheon plants like those in Washington state.
Ira
I read these articles, just as a start. It's Fisk not Frisk and he's just always been an investigative reporter. I know he was shot once in Afghanistan. He's covered the mideast beat. He was definitely in Lebanon when they had their last blowout with Israel. His site is http://www.robert-fisk.org. Like I said, I use him as one source but also consider him in some ways biased (I think they all are!)
I think he was making the point that there will be a perception in the middle east that if US sells weapons to Israel, US is behind the attacks.
I agree with you that we sell arms to those countries but we have also sold weapons for cash money in shady deals and turned rather a blind eye. We supplied Saddam with chemical weapons for one, with Rumsfeld a major player, as in some shady deals with the Koreas. The Communists used to say "The Capitalists will sell the rope to hang themselves with."
Do we produce any consumables any more besides weapons?
Is that why we have such a massive trade deficit?! I maintain that our wars are expensive but that many here also profit. I really don't think we are in the business of supporting democracies and Bush has even said that even if governments are democratically elected, we don't necessarily support those governments. We don't, & we have a habit of propping up dictators when it's in our economic interest.
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/israel/missile2000.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/ruebner02112003.html
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Israel_Selects_Raytheon_And_Rafael_For_Short
_Range_Missile_Defense_Interceptor.html
Anderson Cooper is doing a fascinating story about the M109 Missiles that Israel is shooting into Lebanon. He is showing very sophisticated computers programs that map precisely where the katuba rockets which are uncontrollably and randomly being shot into population centers are coming from, and maping the precise co-ordinates where they are being launched from. The Israeli soldiers then re enter those co ordinates into their M109 missiles and return fire precisely back to that location. Fisk, Frisk even if he can't see the difference he is an idiot. There have been some dumb arms shipped I think primarily during the Reagan Administation during the Iran/Iraq in the 1980s and to Lybia, which we now acknowledge was dumb, but I just can't accept a moral equivalency argument. I am far from an Israeli apologist but those watching this debacle need to carefully separate the wheat from the chaff.
I would like to chime in here. I have read a lot on the "pogressive" blogosphere today. I must admit my surpise and disappointment at the vitriol hurled upon Israel.
Truth,
I am not sure what is such an eye-opener, to you, about the Syrian ambassador's comments? Quite honestly the Syrian calls for negotiations are ridiculous. Syria is a fascist state run by a dictator - there is no sense of democracy in that country - which has called for the destruction of Israel, never once recognizing their right to exist. Why would Israel negotiate with a country that doesn't even recognize them? That makes no sense at all. Still, Syria's claims are disingenuous at best. What makes anybody believe that Assad wouldn't let Hezbollah use the Golan Heights to set up rocket launchers in order to attack and terrorize Israel? Why wouldn't he just use the Golan to attack Israel himself (I am curious what was Syria using the Golan for before the Six Day War?). For now, he is content to let Hezbollah act as his pawns in this violent and totally unnecessary battle.
It is truly unfortunate that Hezbollah establised their infrastructure in Beruit. Yet, Israel has no other recourse in order to defend itself from Hezbollah. This was a calculated move on Hezbollah's and their Iranian sponsor's part. For years we have seen innocent Israelis, Jewish and Muslim alike, murdered on buses, in trains, in restaurants, and in markets. Israelis do have a right to defend themselves. That is something even the most progressive thinker could agree to, I suppose.
Nobody can convince me that Israel, a democracy that has lived up to every bargain it has negotiated with the Arabs should be any less trustworthy than fascist Arab nations who have been clear about their intention to destroy Israel. I, for one, am proud to support Israel. At the same time, I recognize that Israel has made some serious mistakes.
Posted by: DiAnne at July 17, 2006 10:38 PM
BTW, the U.S is the world number one arms dealer.
I, for one, am proud to support Israel. At the same time, I recognize that Israel has made some serious mistakes.
Posted by: oncall at July 17, 2006 11:29 PM
That's the kind of position we need to see more often. No blatant Israel bashing, but no blatant defense of everything Israel does. Thanks, oncall!
Posted by: oncall at July 17, 2006 11:29 PM
It occurred to me that Ira, you, me, and others probably have years of experience studying the history of Israel and its relationship to their neighbors.
So I think a review of their history might help others understand what happened.
It is precisely because I've had so many years of education on Isreal pre-1980 that I went out to find out what the heck I've missed the last 5 years of my life.
Maybe we should just review and start at the beginning.
What do you think?
I know I posted a great starting point a few days ago from my left wing.
Posted by: Suz at July 17, 2006 11:46 PM
I'm hitting Wikipedia right now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#History
Thanks Ally.
I'm trying to think of some good books to suggest that aren't boring as heck.
Here it is:
http://www.myleftwing.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=10309
I would like to chime in here. I have read a lot on the "pogressive" blogosphere today. I must admit my surpise and disappointment at the vitriol hurled upon Israel.
Posted by: oncall at July 17, 2006 11:29 PM
You should have seen what was in my inbox. It's why I had to explain why I was unsubscribing and what drove me to that point.
Good to come back to all the info. There is what happened, then there is what people THINK happened, whether Fox watchers, Al-Jazeera watchers, Air America listeners, Limbaugh listeners or anyone in between. I intend to learn not support a position, per se, because I have no problem with arguing with my own arguments. When I was at the gym just now, I even read Charles Krauthammer, in the back of TIME magazine. Even a semblance of "balance" would be appreciated. I think I'm a long way from an actual "position." I am going to see if I find anything by Ari Melber. He was on the foreign policy panel at YearlyKos and we talked about this some. He's from here but worked on Kerry's campaign and now writes for HuffPo & a bunch of others.
Rabbi Michael Lerner | End the Suffering in the Middle East
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706A.shtml
"The people of the Middle East are suffering again as militarists on all sides, and cheerleading journalists, send forth missiles, bombs and endless words of self-justification for yet another pointless round of violence between Israel and her neighbors," writes Rabbi Michael Lerner. This most recent episode of irrationality "evokes tears of sadness, incredulity at the lack of empathy on all sides, anger at how little anyone seems to have learned from the past, and moments of despair as we once again see the religious and democratic ideals subordinated to the cynical realism of militarism."
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/7/17/173016/556
"I am a Jew" - interesting take.
It's seeming like everyone is getting screwed - religion or not.
Everyone everywhere - global warming, wars. We are all armed to the teeth, nations and many individuals.
Thanks, Suz, DiAnne, Ira, oncall, and everyone.
I need to add that I contribute to the ReBelle Nation blog, which was founded by Christy and now run by Rossiann. ReBelle has been clearly anti-Israel, and right now, as a fellow contributor, I am trying to add comments to clarify that it's not just Israel that's causing problems.
Rossi has been very respectful of my position, especially my mistrust, as a transwoman, of the Islamic world and its homophobia. And I appreciate her for that.
And of course, to defuse the tension, I will try to add a nude or two there once in a while, as Christy used to do.
read read read
think think think
It's not going to be a simple matter of being "for" or "against" Israel. Those days are over. Everything is so interconnected.
Hamas and Hezbollah are organized, not random terrorists, though they employ terror. The days when US could sit by and ignore are over, though with the likes of Elliot Abrams and John Bolton in charge, the odds aren't good for us being peace brokers. & we haven't had diplomatic relations with Iran since 1979 & this may all play right into their hands.
There are a whole bunch of things that have happened that shouldn't have and there is no going back. I don't think it may be as simple as anyone being "in the right."
I cannot imagine the conspiracy theories that are going around. I can never decide which are scarier - the conspiracy theories or the truth we don't know.
Posted by: DiAnne at July 17, 2006 10:09 PM
That's just the thing I am wrestling with right now. I find my trust level for anything I see in the media is very low, and my trust level for the fairness and decency of certain individuals and entities within our own government has been lowered - more than anything by the media itself lying to me, which is what drove me to the internet in the first place.
That being said, I found I was taken back by the assertions Syria's Ambassador made about many people being kidnapped and being held by the Israelis, and also that all they wanted was to trade merely the women and the children for the two Israeli soldiers. He also claimed that there have been many offers to Israel for peace talks that have gone unheeded.
I don't know why it took me back. Maybe because I am used to hearing Israels' point of view, or merely left to wonder what the "other side's" point of view is.
My main objective is to be educated about as much as I can. I have to admit I don't know that much about the history of the region, but now I know I would like to learn more about it. I know what I have read in the Old Testament about Israel, and my religion has always taught that Israel and the Jewish race are God's chosen people. I have been taught that whoever defends and honors Israel will be blessed by God.
But I also know that my heart melted when I met a very nice gentleman ten years ago in Egypt who was my tour guide. We had very many discussions about the similarities between our different religions, and his demeanor was soft spoken, and gentle. He had very kind eyes. I saw poor women with babies on their laps begging with tin cups in Nazareth in the West Bank. I saw a poor woman near Cairo who lived in a hut who was baking her bread in an outdoor oven in over 90 degree heat. The people were human beings.
I haven't been as widely traveled as many of you here, but one thing my travels taught me was that people are people the world around. Most people have love and kindness in their hearts, more so in less developed countries. I met relatives in a communist country that just loved their families so much in spite of the fact that their living standard was FAR BELOW what our poverty level allows. They put their finest tablecloth on and shared their ration of flour for the month with us to have a joyous celebration with a cake. What I remember most is that they just loved each other alot. Family was everything to them. I have found that true in most places I have been fortunate to travel to.
So these nationalities and countries have been fighting over territory for thousands of years. There is alot of hatred born of grievious wounds on both sides, no doubt. How can I possibly pick one side over another? For me, to understand is the best I can hope to do.
And I can't understand right now. I have to learn, I have to process. We all have to process. And what worries me about the future is not just concern for this planet. I am worried because I fear I am going to have to make a moral judgement over an upcoming war, if there should be one ahead. And I am confused right now.
If Iran is behind the Hezbollah attacks as some talking heads are saying, and we decide to go after Iran, will it be justified? Or is this propaganda?
Those are the issues I am wrestling with right now.
The answers don't come easily at this point.
Truth Shall Prevail
You are about where I am then!
I sincerely hope we don't end up fighting Iran. I have feared the scenario that seems to be happening for a long time.
Me too. And the timing of everything just seems a little too convenient to me.
I can't imagine a worse disaster than the U.S. getting into the middle of this current confilict. It would be a collosol blunder (But that is Bush's forte, isn't it?). The right wing talking heads are suggesting that America should take this "opportunity" to change the destiny (whatever that is) of the Middle East. I think it is worth noting that as somebody who defends Israel, I am not so dogmatic as to claim that one side is "right" and one side is "wrong". The situation is much too complicated to attempt to condense it into such arbitrary categories. Still,