Okay... NOW What?

OK now what is exactly what I was typing about Rick:

"I don't think '04 should have been as much about abortion as it was," said truth.

unfortunately it was truth and that is a challenge that we must overcome between now and '08. For instance, it was claimed, wrongly so that Governor Casey was prohibited from speaking at the '92 convention b/c of his stand on abortion. Actually it was b/c he refused to endorse Clinton. The question will then be if allowing his son to speak in '08 in the Denver Convesntion will be a smart message to send to the folks I met at our booth at the Treemont festival in Cleveland who were our one issue voters we tried to redirect to the more important issues to Ohions of economic populism or would that just open old wounds we would rather not get into? Either those one issue voters it is unlikey that we will ever persuade, should be ignored or it must be done with authenticity, not pandering.
In Colorado the Hispanic liason told me that we would have won Colorado in '04 had we not been flooded by tons of very late money targeted directly to cultural conservative Hispanic voters in rural parts of the state like Pueblo. We had a Hispanic Senatorial candidate and a wonderful state operation that put 90% of our effort into carrying Denver for JK and Salazar, which the campaign campaign did by an unprecedented 76% but that was still not enough to overcome the conservative parts of the state. Claire McCaskill smartly learned from her mistakes from a previous run for state office and targeted rural voters this time. But we need to learn one thing from this election: the Iraq war and ethical lapses by Republicans are unique to '06 and we should not presume that this opportunity will repeat itself in '08. There will be new challenges in '08 that we have not even thought about yet.
Unfortunately while we made much progress this election cycle we still have miles to go to reach out to rural and antiabortion voters. Spreading the Air America voice to channels in rural America and the Hispanic Air America voice, while discussed ere last year by chuck and others, never materialized, perhaps b/c of Air America's financial problems. Curious what others dcp members in different parts of the country learned from their '06 experiences with voters, since we are here at dcp to learn and grow and to prepare ourselves for a grueling and all important Presiential campaign not that far off.

incidentally the experience I had in '04 in Denver was that all of the late money($1 million) in the Colorado Presidential campaign to the Republican state party was targeted specifically towards cultural conservative antiabortion Hispanics in Pueblo. It worked for them and narrowly carried Colorado for Bush: my question, is that fighting the last battle while ignoring challenges of future unforseen Republican slime machine efforts?

Ira, what I saw was a lot of frustration with politicians who weren't accomplishing very much of anything, and especially not passing the legislation or accomplishing the other goals of the conservative Christian voters who put them there. In the end, white male Christian millionaires is just not a lot of voting power. A lot of Republicans didn't vote at all because they weren't excited by their choices and we certainly can't count on that the next time around. Especially if we draw down forces in Iraq but relaunch (or threaten to) in Korea or Iran. A new war or some saber rattling is always good for shoring up the base.
I do think the "down ticket" approach is good and to see victories in governorships and state legislatures is quite heartening. I think we need to continue to focus on rebuilding the party for the long term and staying ahead of any nasty media-driven brainwashing. It is also instructive to remember that Americans preferred a Democratic Congress and a Republican president for many years: Dems to run internal affairs and a Republican to handle foreign affairs. We cannot count out that rationale and should remember that our newly elected representatives need to look towards home and clean out the Aegean stables of all the stinky legislation that has passed recently.

And there is one thing missing from that to-do list:
Dust off the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Re-enact them.

And a good Veterans Day to all. Go find a veteran and thank him or her...and their families.

Thank you, V.

and the vessel you rode in on,
Otter

January 3, 2007 needs to be an official day of celebration where we proudly fly our flags from sea to sea and proudly pronounce that a new day for America has arrived. Lets start a national January 3, 2007 flag day.

(Quoted without comment, except to remind us of how & why we got here... these lyrics from the album "Iraq: Songs of Life and Death" by http://riotfolk.org musician Ryan Harvey...)

They won't grant you land
But they'll hand you evictions
Won't ban pollution
But they'll hand you prescriptions
Won't plan a clinic
But they'll plan you a prison
To expand their restrictions
Demand your convictions
All for a scam to bring the man riches

And the laws are all written in encoded encryption
Like Egyptian inscriptions
So you can't read the text or transcribe the depictions
And you end up a victim of this merciless system
A fool to the rules
Unless you resist them...

While Bush is discreet with his hard drug connections
And lies through his teeth about weapons inspections
Starts wars on the poor to protect his investments
Shackles the rest in his halls of "correction"
The empire rises with threat of aggression
And free enterprise all we get is recession

So we protest elections and move on in directions
To spawn insurrections
Maintaining the movement for public protection
From the morbid extension of corporate oppression

But the media ignores it or turns their attention
To stories of glory or outright suppression
When the people rise up and the press gives no mention
They like to pretend it's a leftist invention

Now CIA henchmen plot out interventions
To silence the people who stand up and question
Our secret detentions or chemical weapons
Or mass violation of Geneva Conventions
From all the president's men there's no talk of prevention
Just talk of revenge and of lethal offenses
While soldiers are dying alone in the trenches
Here back at home we're thrown behind fences

And they call it freedom, flag waving with grace
Yeah we're gonna beat 'em we're saving this place
But reality strikes, they're creating disgrace
And killing the hungry, the poor and displaced
While paving the way for the state to erase
The rights of the people, move forward with slaves
Keep digging the deep hole of court-ordered graves
Now only the biggest rebellions will save

Our only alternative to fear and defeat
By the rule of fortunate is here in the street
It's the sound that we make when we rise up and speak
In defense of our world, the freedom we seek
The wrongly convicted, the wrongly released
All captive belongings of capitalist greed
And until we've deleted the powers that be
There will never be peace in the land of the free

so let's work to create real peace in our time,
Otter

Song & pictures say it all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orlDffk29aI

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn't an argument against atheism. It's an argument against foxholes."
-- James Morrow

If you get a chance to listen to NPR's "Wait, wait, don't tell me..." show today (or this weekend), I promise you won't be disappointed. I realize I'm still slightly giddy from Tuesday's results, but today's show was a hoot.

Here's a little teaser...

"Nancy Pelosi will be the first female Speaker of the House, but she won't be the first one to wear women's underwear..."

Install Lincoln Chaffee at the UN :)

Help Waxman pick out his first investigation

Free the Internet

Investigate Halliburton and other war profiteering/corruption

Redeploy US troops to Afghanistan to bolster Democracy where they may actually want it, and oh, how about Bin Laden's head on a stick?

Windfall Profit Taxes on the oil companies to pay the war bill, instead of my freakin kids

Address global warming

Fair Trade

Get us the 6 for 6

Repair our diplomatic standing in the world

Help Katrina victims rebuild

Restore the writ of Habeus Corpus in America

Charge Bush Adminsitration officials with war crimes....oh, wait....check!

That should keep the Dems busy for awhile.

Lincoln Chaffee at the UN, what a great idea, unfortunately we have no say so about that.

I found this gem on MichiganLiberal.com.
I think it speaks for all of us.
I posted it a Dem Daily and Lib Values...

————————————
I always get a lump in my throat when I stand up to sing the Star Spangled Banner, but it often seems as if I’m the only one. The daughter and granddaughter of several of America’s heroes, I believe that to have given all or a part of your life to our country and what it stands for is truly one of the most selfless acts, ever.

My dad is a Vietnam Veteran, and I will never know exactly what he suffered, or how wet a monsoon really is, or how terrifying the jungles appear at night. I couldn’t tell you what it’s like to spend months and years knowing that it could all be over in a flash, sometimes only because you fly a different flag than the guy at the other end of the gun. I don’t know what it’s like to return to a country only a year or two older than when you left but be aged beyond words. But our heroes can - and those who serve even now, will return with their own age spots, both emotional and physical.

On this Veterans Day, I am sad to see how little respect our veterans have been given by the press, by our government, and by the people in general. Just with those who have lost their lives in the last 6 years, it seems as if we’ve swept our heroes under the rug of our daily lives. Now grown men and women have to be told to take their hat off while our anthem plays, and too many still don’t know all the words to the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m tired of patriotism being played as a campaign card when it’s fashionable, and forgotten when it matters most. Our vets are our heroes, those who stand among us with scars that will always linger, and too often, those who are left behind us as we go forward. These men and women deserve so much more than the societal breadcrumbs we throw them when the media spotlight needs a new poster boy or girl.

So how do we honor our veterans and fallen heroes? I think of my dad, and my grandfathers, and I know that the greatest form of respect we can give them is to never, ever forget - what they’ve given, what they endure to this day, and the battle that they face even now, on our own soil, through finances, education, and healthcare. Perhaps we all need to stand as a state and a country, remove our hats, and swallow the collective lump that should form in all of our throats. Wipe the tear that forms in the corner of our eye, and turn to salute our veterans, our heroes. Contrary to what many may think, they are what keeps us great, not the other way around.

Dems should not even think about impeachment unless they have the necessary votes to finish it.

Dems were elected to fix the mess Dumbya left; not get bogged doen in years of mud wrestling.
I believe Clinton's popularity actually went up during his troubles as it was pretty obvious the Repubs put way to much emphasis on lieing about BJs.

There should be investigations into torture, how we got into Iraq, contracts to Haliburton. In the end, censure Dumbya for every thing he did wrong. We need to not only bury Bush, but Conservatism.

Let the European Courts rip him a new one.
But do not start impeachment unless the entire body of Congress and the public are clamoring for it.

While there are certainly many things that could be brought forth to impeach George W. Bush, it may not be in the long term best interests of the Democratic party...it may be the right thing to do though...so if there are enough votes to accomplish that, and the it is in the best interests of the American people moving forward through Bush's lame duck years here, then yes, do it, but remember, this may come at the sacrifice of actually accomplishing the democratic agenda in Congress.

Good news in new Newsweek poll for Bush. He is now at 31%, but still ahead of where Richard Nixon was when he left office. Just barely.

Dems should hold investigations into everything.

They should push the agenda forward for the American people. An agenda which had better include media reform and election reform as well as issues like healthcare, ending the Iraq war, etc...

They should do these simultaneously.

Morally...impeachment is absolutely correct. These people are exactly what the founding fathers warned us about.

These people belong behind bars.

Yet, as we work with those goals, censure should be the minimal outcome, and if we can get war profiteers to return the money they took then we should do that too.

But we cannot stop Congress to work on Impeachment and we can not work only on bills and laws to the exclusion of investigations.

(And if you understand what I just wrote, give yourself a pat on the back.)

Posted by: KerryDemocrat at November 11, 2006 02:00 PM

I don't think the public will stomach an impeachment while so many problems exist.

Make Murtha the House Majority Leader and charter him with developing a course to get us out of Iraq. He has the stature and the clout to do it.

Pick a few easy ones such as raising the minimum wage. Get some victories first, Then go after the tougher problems and pass legislature on issues that people want that Bush will veto. Then pound it over Repub heads in 2008.
Have hearings and censure whenever there is wrong doing. Do not impeach as we will never have the necessary votes. We need legislative victories to show the public we know how to govern wisely.
If I had my way, the Bush crowd would be waterboarded and glowsticked in abu Ghraib. But that will lead to disaster in 2008.

Buy one-way tickets to the Haque for the Bush cabal..along with orange jump-suits, tin plates and soap.

If we screw this up and loose 2008, it will be a lot of years before we are in this position again.

To continue to win, the Conservative movement must be discredited. These are not Bush failures, they are Conservative philosophy failures.
To only make this Bush failures invites smarter Conservatives.

From Wikipedia...
The necessary two thirds Senate vote will never pass.
---------------------------------------------
The impeachment procedure is in two steps. The House of Representatives must first pass "articles of impeachment" by a simple majority. (All fifty state legislatures as well as the District of Columbia city council may also pass articles of impeachment against their own executives). The articles of impeachment constitute the formal allegations. Upon their passage, the defendant has been "impeached."

Next, the Senate tries the accused. In the case of the impeachment of a President, the Chief Justice of the United States presides over the proceedings. Otherwise, the Vice President, in his capacity as President of the Senate, or the President pro tempore of the Senate presides. This may include the impeachment of the Vice President him- or herself, although legal theories suggest that allowing a person to be the judge in the case where she or he was the defendant wouldn't be permitted. If the Vice President did not preside over an impeachment, the duties would fall to the President Pro Tempore.

In order to convict the accused, a two-thirds majority of the senators present is required

In this post at TPMCafe, "Opinion Roundup: Who Gets Credit, Rahm Or Netroots?", Greg Sargent posted clips from a bunch of different bloggers about the who gets credit issue. There were some interesting and erudite comments on the thread but the following one framed it in such a way that I went, “Of course – how true that is.” I wanted to share it with you because I just haven’t seen it framed this way anywhere else.

On November 10, 2006 - 10:35am CommonDreamer said:

Talk about your false choices.

Conservative Democrats should welcome the leftward pull of the netroots. By defending liberalism head-on, the netroots blunt the force of the liberal label and they allow Conservative Democrats to run as moderate by redefining the middle. The more legitimacy we create for a liberal politics in this country, the more breathing room moderate Democrats have.

At the same time, liberal-left Democrats must recognize -- and I think they do - that when it comes to governing we are obliged to govern all the people, not just liberals. Therefore governing from somewhere near the center is really the only choice. Therefore it will usually be centrist candidates that run and are elected.

It's the job of the pragmatists in the party to run the country and deal with the present while responding to liberal concerns and incorporating liberal ideas where it can.

It's the job of the liberals to actually change the country, hope for the future, build support for Dems and liberalism and prod the leadership to think in new and different ways.

It's neither side's job to get into some kind of pointless pissing contest about who is more important.

The whole thread is here…
http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2006/nov/09/bloggers_versus_rahm_opinion_roundup#comment-179509

We need to plan to sustain our Majority.

We need to do something about the debt, budget deficit and trade deficit. The dollar is down almost 50 percent against the Euro since the start of the decade and just fell further because China has chosen to diversify its holdings.

Democrats Are Set to Subpoena
The new majority is expected to hold hearings on military spending and the Iraq war -- just for starters.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1110-01.htm

This makes sense...
[snip]
"The Democrats are going to be cross-pressured. They could hold impeachment hearings. They could make people in the Bush administration look absolutely terrible. It wouldn't be hard," said Joel Aberbach, a UCLA political science professor. "But there may be a little restraint because of their political needs in terms of consolidating themselves and looking to the 2008 election."

Democrats are expected to bore into the Iraq war, including review of no-bid contracts for reconstruction, intelligence failures and decisions to ignore the advice of military commanders about troop levels.

"Rather than focus on the failings of the war, though, these events will be staged in order to highlight the administration's incompetence and inflexibility," said William Howell, an associate professor at the Harris School of Public Policy at the University of Chicago.

The Democrats should begin all relevant investigations, but avoid any hint of a vendetta or witchhunt.

Bush is a lame duck President, and Cheney apparently has no political ambitions beyond the Vice-Presidency, so both are becoming more and more irrelevant every day. The last thing Democrats need to do make either a sympathetic figure, or a figure to rally around. Just allow the evidence to come out, piece by piece, day by day, until the sheer magnitude of their incompetence and duplicity bury both them, and anyone foolish enough to be still standing alongside them.

Posted by: Matthew Carnicelli at November 11, 2006 03:10 PM

Just allow the evidence to come out, piece by piece, day by day, until the sheer magnitude of their incompetence and duplicity bury both them, and anyone foolish enough to be still standing alongside them.

______________________________________________________________________

You took the words right out of my fingers.

One thing I would really like to see are Tax Cuts, that's right Middle class tax cuts to show voters that Progressives believe in lower taxes for the working people. As Mark Warner did in Va. he swapped lower middle class taxes for rolling back some busness taxes, which Congressman Rangel could do with some of the give aways to Exxon.
I would also like to know if there is any way to repeal the earmark and Illiminate the Bridge to No where. That vote would have significant public support.

I would also like to add that there is a responsibility of convicting and punishing all the war profiteers who benefitted off of soldiers - dead and alive - and innocent Iraqis.

On this Veteran's Day, another bit of bad news for our National Guard.

More National Guard units may get second tours in Iraq

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The nation's citizen soldiers, already strained by long tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, could be tapped again under new plans being developed by the Pentagon.

National Guard combat brigades that have already served in Iraq may be called for a second tour, likely breaking the 24-month deployment limit initially set by the Pentagon, the Guard's top general said.

While active-duty soldiers and smaller Guard units and members have returned to Iraq for multiple tours, the new plans would, for the first time, send entire Guard combat brigades back to the battlefront. Brigades generally have about 3,500 troops.

The move -- which could include brigades from Arkansas, Florida, Indiana and North Carolina -- would force the Pentagon to make the first large-scale departure from its previous decision not to deploy reserves for more than a total of 24 months in Iraq. (Watch new directions U.S. could take in Iraq -- 2:01)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/11/iraq.national.guard.ap/index.html

Sometime back I posted about this guy:

And one more quick thinker...

On Wednesday, March 1st, 2006, in Annapolis at a hearing on the proposed Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage, Jamie Raskin, professor of law at AU, was requested to testify.

At the end of his testimony, Republican Senator Nancy Jacobs said: "Mr. Raskin, my Bible says marriage is only between a man and a woman. What do you have to say about that?"

Raskin replied: "Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

The room erupted into applause.

His complete speech about the proposed anti-gay amendment is here...
http://www.raskin06.com/index.php

Posted by: dwahzon at March 13, 2006 03:28 PM

I just ran across this quote in looking for something else and decided to see if he won his race.

He certainly did. He has a very nice thank you letter up on his website now. Here's what leapt out at me from the letter.

You stood with me when the pundits said my candidacy was “impossible” and you were there when they pronounced our upset primary victory “inevitable.”

You brought me from being a long-shot with less than 15% name recognition in January to the winner of 98.85% of the vote in November (23,344 votes!).

You built in the precincts of District 20 an awesome grassroots organization that completely changed the politics of Montgomery County.

----------

Sounds like there were a lot of amazing stories this fall.

The problem with going for middle class tax cuts is that Bush will almost certainly sign that kind of bill, while refusing to sign on to any repeal of any of his earlier upper income tax cuts - making the deficit even wider for the next President. And with the moderates in the GOP having been largely purged in the mid-terms, there is little chance of getting enough Republicans to override a Bush veto of any tax increase.

From previous thread:
Nonny I read the play, but I gotta say, I was for Nancy P. paying attention to the health care for the kid. ;-) But all will unfold as it will. There are enough of us to do many tasks.
Posted by: kj at November 11, 2006 08:53 AM

I also agree with Pelosi's agenda, and our citizens need to be taken care of - health care, Medicare, Katrina, etc., and I want those problems resolved - as well as other common sense legislation that seems to have been put on hold for six years, or mangled beyond all reason by allowing corporations to write the legislation so that it benefits them, not the citizens of this nation. There are people enough that all of those things can be done with proper oversight - and like the DKos poster wrote from a link on the previous thread, it can all be put in plain and simple language, and each bill must contain only one piece of legislation that the senators and representatives must have time to read before voting on each separate piece, and nothing must be added after each bill has been voted on.

Every time I read the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, I'm still constantly amazed by the simple elegance of the language, since nothing about either document is above the understanding of the average kid in late grade school; it's all VERY easily understood because the language is elementary (no high-falutin' legal-speak, just plain words, none of which can be misinterpreted or misunderstood in any way because those documents are written with elementary, plain words).

We are capable of MULTITASKING (as long as the neoCons are not allowed to befuddle people in Lamestream Media Sunday morning yak shows and Dems are kept off those same shows, as has been the practice since before 2000). Common-sense legislation can be enacted, and in a very short amount of time (remember all the up-or-down votes Dumbya was allowed to shove through Congress in a matter of hours, or, at most, a couple of days, when no one had a chance to read any of it?!?).

While those things are being done, we ALSO need to get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan, close those horrible concentration camps and send innocent prisoners to their home countries, repeal the idiotic legislation passed since Bu$h was appointed to his office, starting with the last horror known as the Military Commissions Act of '06 that gives the executive branch dictatorial powers and obliterates the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Conventions, and US law, and proceeding shortly thereafter to repealing the so-called Patriot Act and all its amendments, and repealing the laws that encroach on our rights and responsibilities and our privacy. If the legislators get busy immediately after they're sworn in, there's no reason these things can't be accomplished in three months (if they're serious about common-sense legislation and fixing things, the drafts of those bills have already been written!)... and while that's being accomplished, the investigative bodies need to detail the lies and crimes of the administrtion and draw up articles of impeachment....

IF - IF - we are truly a nation of laws and ideals as mandated by the Founding Fathers in our Constitution and our Bill of Rights and other Amendments, including our treaties (as mandated by the Constitution, and that very much includes the Geneva Conventions), and US laws (the ones on the books before 2000, at least, most of which were based on common sense), then IT IS OUR DUTY, AS LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS, to impeach Bush and Cheney and charge other members of their administration, past and present, with their war crimes (US law, Title 18, among others) for aiding and abetting the administration in their crimes (and lies to cover those crimes); at the very least, ALL can be charged with multiple counts of perjury (their public statements at 'news' conferences are a series of lies, and we all know it), some can be charged with absconding with funds provided by US taxpayers; at the most, war crimes that include the unconstitutional and illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, torture, and illegally detaining innocent people. And, that's just for starters, what we know about already, before a thorough investigation into all the crimes and cover-ups can be revealed because this administration is steeped in layers and layers of secrecy. We don't yet know what further crimes would be uncovered by investigations.

Posted by: Matthew Carnicelli at November 11, 2006 03:10 PM
Posted by: oncall at November 11, 2006 03:23 PM

Let the evidence come out.... What Matthew said..., as seconded by oncall..., I third....

From previous thread:
Posted by: Carol at November 11, 2006 08:49 AM

Odom is right, and it's too bad he's been censored. Shame on Lamestream Media!

Other than control of oil, there is no purpose to our being in Iraq. All the rest of the "reasons" have been proved lies, but under the puppet government and the puppet constitution dictated by Bu$hCo, US oil corporations will still profit nicely.

There is NO reason for the US military to stay in Iraq other than to control access to oil wells that currently exist, and/or oil fields that have not yet been drilled, and there is NO reason for the US military personnel to stay in Afghanistan other than to guard the oil pipelines that run through the country, and there is NO reason to build permanent US military bases in either of those countries. When all the other kerfluffle "reasonings" and "complications" have been thought through and uncovered as lies, OIL, and all things associated with oil wells and oil pipelines and profit margins for oil corporations become the bottom line for anything done in Iraq or Afghanistan. Period. End of bottom line.

That being the case, Halliburton's DynCorp or KBR or other corporations interested in protecting their profit margins can send their hired mercenaries to guard the oil wells and pipelines if they can find any takers for their five-figure monthly salaries that "private security guards" get. It's Halliburton and the rest of the corporate cronies who profit from Iraq's oil wells and from oil pipelines running through Afghanistan; let them pay the costs and suffer the casualites, not the US military! Protecting oil wells and oil pipelines for private corporations is not in the job descriptions for our military, nor in the oath taken by the US military personnel.

US military personnel joined up to protect this country and the citizens of this country, not the private interests of corporations. Thousands of US lives and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghani people have been killed for the sake of private corporate greed. All those lives lost; and for what? Certainly not for any patriotic ideals as espoused by Bu$hCo or PNAC. All those people are dead because of PNAC objectives and the greed of private oil corporations....

The US and 'coalition' military presence destabilized the region, but we still do not need to be caught in the crossfire of their civil wars, since the reasons for their disputes go back some 1500 years and we have no understanding of the underlying reasons. They need to resolve those issues on their own, or with the help of UN mediators, and without the interference of PNAC or private oil corporations. A US military presence in Iraq or Afghanistan can only serve to keep the region destabilized indefinitely and serves the purpose of filling the ranks of the criminal gangs who commit terrorist acts aimed at getting our presence out of their country. The invasion and occupation of Iraq, based on lies, was/is a war crime, as is the illegal detention and torture of innocent people. The rest of the world that still abides by the Geneva Conventions knows that, even if Lamestream Media hasn't aired any information here in this country about the war crimes perpetrated by the current administration. All we get in Lamestream Media is bandwagon patriotism and infotainment, not facts and truth.

Haven't enough lives been needlessly lost, wasted, for PNAC and private oil corporate profits...???

NannyO
We will not be able to impeach Bush and remove him from office because there will never be 2/3 of the Senate willing to go along with it.
We can investigate...hold hearings...call for impeachment from the house and settle for censure.
No jail time as the Senate will never vote for removal.
It sucks but doing otherwise will cost us dearly.

But unless we do the job of solving our many problems we will be a one-term donkey.
And deservedly so.

We will have to be satisfied by dragging the Bush cabal through as much mud as possible. History should show Bush as one of the worst if not the worst pres in history. History will show his supporters as the most misguided and gullable group of people in history. Histroy will show the Repub party as the most illegal and criminal in history.

The goal is to bury conservatism as a viable social and political force.

About the Dem victory and conservative media...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/what-a-mandate-popular-_b_33882.html

Matthew any tax swap needs to be done as one bill so that Bush can't do exactly what you suggest to explode the deficit. It can either be done as a repeal of the upper 2% cut or repeal of the Exxon Giveaway Tax bill. Fine let Bush veto it and then let Repubs go to voters in '08 and explain why they stood against Middle Class tax cuts. I would take that bet any day of the week. We can't give more tax cuts to the middle class because we need to protect tax breaks for Paris Hilton? A very conservative Va state legislature said they wouldn't support a tax swap either and they eventually buckled. Its smart politics but it also means Dems can say they are siding with the working class, its a great Populist message for '08. I don't want to ever see a Conrad Burns or Corker type campaign commercial ever again saying that Dems want to raise your taxes. Every Presidential election season we here the Republican mantra my Dem opponent pledges to raise your taxes 1000% regardless of the facts. Taxes are an issue that we are going to have to attack head on in the next two years and not keep running away from.

Nonny,

I'm 100% with battlebob's posts above re: impeachment proceedings the next two years. And with dressing the whole neoconcabal in neonorange and shipping them to the Hague.

Abu Ghraib must be investigated along with war profiterring (that oughta bring to light much about many). Murtha as majority leader, yes. Chafee to the UN, great idea! Minimum wage increase coupled with corporate tax cuts.

Sorry, very tired and not too coherent. Great thread.

Nonny, btw, love your links. You and DiAnne and your eclectic links! @;-)

Battlebob I would love to see Mudcat Saunders put in charge of the '08 Democratic Presidential campaign. Saunders was Webb, Kaine and Warner's campaign manager.
And did we say a big Booya for finally ridding us of JD.

Impeachment hearings would = a two-year television bonanza covering the War Between the Parties.

The notion that politicans (on both sides) care only for their own hides and not a whit for the people they are elected to represent, even when the people who voted them into office are out here drowning in debt without access to decent jobs or healthcare or hope for their children's future and their own retirement would be encased in cement. Two years of televised fiddling while Rome burned and the Republicans scrambled for 2008.

Not that I wouldn't love to see it happen. I put my disgust with the entire Bush family up against anyone's in terms of wanting to see them all hung out to fry and dry. I just don't believe that sort of huge attention getting action would be in the best interests of the country. (I was glued to the set during Clinton's impeachment. Watched every day all day. It was the only thing I could think or talk about. It was insane.)

In this culture today, impeachment hearings would be like watching Gawker & TMZ, all day, all the time, on speed. Just another "war." Just another reality show spectator sport.

There wouldn't be an ounce of multi-tasking going on... it would be nothing sort of all consuming theatre for everyone.

There are more pressing issues that need our attention. That's my pov. Hope it made some sense. Tired and sort of brain dead at the moment!

How do we pay for Bush's War in Iraq? Is there anyway to link the profits made by Halliburton and Haliburton's stockholders (and other companies involved in the "rebuilding" of Iraq) with the payment? Make it clear that middle-class and lower-income American taxpayers will not be beholden to this mess? Could we put anyone on trial here in the US?
Not really good with numbers so these are probably dumb questions.

River of Freedom

We've been building this ship for years
'cause the river is made tears
And now we're drifting
down the river of freedom
And now we're on our way
on our way...
The sails are made from our dreams
there'll be better days downstream
And now we're drifting
down the river of freedom
And now we're on our way
on our way...
Please let our spirit last
we're raising up our last mast
And now we're drifting
down the river of freedom
On our way
On our way
On our way

Deeelite

KJ

I say The Hague.
If it's good enough for Slobodon Milosovic it's good enough for Bush.

Remember that he bought a new ranch in Paraguay.
Would be a perfect place for exile.
Isn't that where some of the Nazis fled?

There For You

Vexation of spirit is a waste of time
Negative thinking don't you waste your thoughts
Verbal conflict is a waste of word
Physical conflict is a waste of flesh
People will always be who they want
and that's what really makes to world go round
Unconditional love is scarce

Damian "Junior Gong" Marley

DiAnne, I think so. And Argentina also? Yes, the Hague. International trial. Out of the hands of our political parties. Highlight the Dems responsible approach to cleaning up the mess created by GWB. Grownups vs Greedy Children. Highlight that the actions of a few in power have consequences around the world. Build America again and regain the admiration of the world for our attention to "We the People."

And do NOT give Poppy Inc anytime to plot for the next election.

LOVE the verses in that song. Long fight, it's good to feel good. :-)

We're Democrats, We Fix Things b;-)

Woooooo Hooooooo!!!
Bush approval drops, Democrats' goals backed -poll
Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/yesers

Just days after Democrats took over Congress, Americans embraced their top goals and President George W. Bush's job approval rating slid to 31 percent, according to a Newsweek poll issued on Saturday.

Huge majorities of those polled said they approved of the legislative priorities cited by Democratic leaders after their party seized control of the Senate and the House of Representatives from Republicans, the magazine said.

But they also expressed concerns that Democrats might seek to pull U.S. troops out of Iraq too quickly or hamper the administration's efforts to combat terrorism, it said....

Newsweek article that goes with post @ November 11, 2006 07:31 PM

Feeling Blue?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15667442/site/newsweek/#

found on Wikipedia while researching "Borat," which I intend to see, though the humor is not politically correct.

On September 29, 2006, Cohen appeared in character as Borat at the White House gates to give a press conference and invite "Supreme Warlord Premier George Walter Bush" to a screening of his forthcoming film, along with "O.J. Simpson", "Melvin Gibsons" and other "American dignitaries." Not surprisingly, Secret Service agents would not admit him to the grounds.

In lieu of impeachment, I'll settle for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Gonzales, et al., being tried for war crimes, even as I realize that may not happen until after those lying criminals are out of office and a new president signs on to the World Court again.

I STILL want justice for all the US military and private citizens and illegal torture of innocent prisoners of Iraq and Afghanistan that the lyin' sacks of $h!t have put through hell and/or have died for the sins of PNAC and big oil corporations since Bu$h was given his office in 2000.

JUSTICE will not be served until the lying criminals who are "leading" this nation are put on trial for all their lies and war crimes and high crimes and misdemeanors.

If I, as one person, can multitask as easily as I do, then certainly several people who are charged with only one or two duties to investigate can do better at itemizing the lies and crimes if they don't have to do three or more things at once... yes?

Hmmm.... when are moderate Repubs going to figure out that they would be wise to let go of the falling comet's tail of the Bu$hCo administration?

Oddly enough, some show on PBS I saw last night talked about Dem base voters not being satisfied with "moderate" stances on issues, but want politicians who are more left-leaning than center. I'm one of the left-leaning voters who wants Dems to stand for something, not fall for anything in the center that smells like, looks like yet more compromises with Dumbya who says he wants a consensus, when all he really wants is to speed his crappy legislation through Congress without even giving them a chance to read or debate any of his crappy legislation - doing things his way or no way. I'm sick to death of just exactly that, since it's all we've seen Dems do for the last six years: cave in to whatever Dumbya wanted out of fear he'd call them names. That's what's lost elections for Dems.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Posted by: kj at November 11, 2006 06:15 PM
Thanks. :-) I try to keep myself informed, and the only way I can do that is read, read, read, and then read some more, and then read this blog, other blogs, try to get as much info as I can about any issues, topics - sometimes I change my mind, sometimes my opinions are reinforced, and other topics I don't yet have enough info about to have an opinion yet.... But I share what I think might be of interest to others....

I'm like Andrew on the old blog - I want to know what they don't want me to know.

DiAnne- Already saw Borat, and I recommend it, except for the nude wrestling scene. One of our best known local attorneys, who was running a Democratic phone bank from his office on Tuesday, was there on Monday night when I went to see the movie. I think we both had the same idea- some well deserved rest and just to get away from politics the night before the election. At any rate, I'm glad I'm not as well known as this fellow is- I suspect he would have liked to have hidden his head in a bag during that particular scene, so no one would know he was at the theatre. I asked him about that on his local cable access show a couple of nights later, and he fully agreed with me. It was a good movie otherwise- at least to those of us who like "booger" humor, but that scene should not have been included in the movie. As for what we should do now that the house and Senate are secure- my answer would be to begin to look forward to the 2008 election, and to thin out the field as soon as possible. I don't want to see 10 Democrats debating on TV again this election, and I don't want the animosity that was left over after the 2004 primary season. If we have 3 or 4 viable, ELECTABLE candidates before the debates begin, that would make me happy. Sorry, but no matter what anyone thought of Kucinich, Lieberman, et al in the last debates, they had no reason to be there, because they had no hope of getting the nomination. I know there will be some who disagree with me on this, and I'm certainly not naming the candidates who I think will be in the final 4 or 5, though Hillary and John Edwards will probably be two of them. I just think there needs to be more unity this election than there was in '04, and a lot less infighting. That's what I'm hoping for anyway, and also that we don't try to impeach Bush , even though I detest the ground he walks on. I don't think the people who came out to vote this week were voting for impeachment- they're pretty sick of partisan politics right now. Anyhow- check out the movie for yourself- just shut your eyes during the truly gross part. And it is really, really gross, trust me on that.

Carol Mosley Braun was also in those debates and a total waste of oxygen. How does the Democratic Party begin to say that only serious candidates can debate?; you are right it needs to be done.

Who couldn't want Al Sharpton at a debate? He had no chance at becoming President, but he certainly added some novel perspectives. Carol Mosley Braun was not a serious candidate, and I always thought she was placed there by the DLC as a foil against Howard Dean.

I agree that the debates ideally should be limited to a certain number of candidates, but as is always said, "The devil is in the details." Bubba asks a very important question, how does the party limit the number of cadidates at a debate? Howard Dean is going to have Soloman's wisdom to get the candidates to agree to a process which might lock some of them out of the process. Before the Iowa caucus, John Kerry would not have been included as he was polling so low. Perhaps anybody can be allowed to stand there, but their time allowed to speak be determined on the number of primary votes they have accumulated. There is no one right answer to this vexing problem.

The difference between Vietnam and Iraq is that Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam.

Linda
I'm kind of afraid he'll wear that Speedo-looking thing that goes over his shoulders too - I hope not! I'll close my eyes.

Ray McGovern | An Open Letter to Carl Levin: No Free Pass to Gates
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/111106A.shtml
"Dear Senator Levin," writes Ray McGovern, "the humiliation you felt was palpable when, as the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, you were unceremoniously diddled by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his deputies Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, chief architects of the fiasco in Iraq. They all but thumbed their noses at you, and you often complained about their 'lack of candor.' In two short months, you will chair Armed Services and will no longer have to tolerate such behavior. Indeed, you can start practicing now by not letting the nomination of Robert Gates be a 'slam dunk.'"

oncall, I think all of us are on pins and needles about the Presidential race, and maybe we should just enjoy this week before getting emotionally wrapped up in the next election. I know many of us here have some very strong opinions about their favorite candidate. I am stubbornly sticking with my guy, but want to begin speaking with local Democrats to get a sense where they are leaning. I think all of us need to keep an open mind and begin speaking with local activists, friends, and non political types in our communties to see what kind of person they are looking for. Hopefully we will all keep our senses and not get at each others throats next year because I am sure all of us want to do this right. The selection of the host city is now b/w Denver and Colorado, I am hoping, though not optimistic that we go against the conventional wisdom and select Denver, although there are apparenty union issues in Denver to first deal with. In my mind New York sends a bad message to the country of us doing business as usual but I am partial to Denver for a reason. Curious what others here have read or think about selection of the host city. Unfortunately neither Columbus nor Cleveland is in the running which would have otherwise given us an opening to cement Ohio for '08

Posted by: Bubba at November 12, 2006 12:08 AM

If I seemed strident in my comment, that was not my intention. I thought I was making a joke about Al Sharpton. But we all know what can happen when a joke goes badly.

To be sure, I am thrilled with the election results. Finally this country will have a Congress that wont let an imperial Presidency run amok over America's best interests.

My pick for a convention city is Louisville. The Democrats want to have a fifty state presence. Louisville sits on the border of Indiana and Kentucky. That geographic location will give the Democrats some further credibility in a region that elected a Democrat to Congress (KY-3). That choice also stradles the midwest with its close proximity to Indiana.

Another choice would be St. Louis.

Many consider media market as an important factor in considering the convention city. In today's high tech, informatic world, that is less of a consideration in my mind.

I will always hope that New Orleans will get the nod. That would be ideal.

Interesting summary of why Brown/Strickland, campaigns I was involved, with did so well with a message of economic populism and breaking through with rural conservatives. Our check list should include how we go about cementing these new and sometimes first time Democratic voters, and expand our base. Its best that we begin to focus on what worked in '06 and fully understand how '06 and '08 will be different. to start with we had 2 very talented and experienced candidates in Ohio that I was proud to work for.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001454.html

oncall, we have had this discussion before, and I don't want to sound flippant about the Convention Site process but it just doesn't work that way. About a year ago the DNC took offers from cities that wanted to be considered, N.O.was one of them but subsequently backed out. Each must show that they are able to put up suffient resources, a state of the art Convention Center, and a requisite no. of hotel rooms before being given consideration and the 5 applicants are then narrowed down, which i believe they were around September to Denver and New York. The bidding doesn't reopen after that process so the choice will be either Denver or New York, although I thought I had read that Philadelphia was one of the finalists. No I wasn't dissing you, Sharpton was the best debator, I just think that we are in a very serious mood after 6 years of Bush, and aren't into jovialness with our candidates. Sorry oncall I am just no fun, and don't have much of sense of humor. Its my problem I am working on it and maybe after '08 it will get better.

Posted by: Bubba at November 12, 2006 12:37 AM

You obviously understand the process better than I do. I didn't realize that cities had to apply for the "honor" of hosting a convention. I thought the parties approached the city they were interested in.

Hey All, Chuck in Houston on topic for a change:

Personally, I think the big long-term issues now are:

1) A Manhattan project on sustainable energy independence;

2) Starting a new dialog in the Middle East (as Jim Webb suggested during his debate with Allen on Russert) so we can disengage without serious disruptions; and

3) Campaing finance reform and, what the heck, getting some kind of a movement for abolishing the Electoral College and federalizing (and simplifiying) voting standards and procedures (including the audit trail) including some measure to get rid of gerrymandering.

And some urgent (immediate) steps so we can get to the above are:

1) resuscitate the labor movements;

2) raise the minimum wage;

3) help Mexico (re-direct the immigration debate to the place where the real problem is);

4) end those pork-barrel procedures in congress (it would only hurt the GOP politically right now, so now's the chance);

5) Deal with the fiscal crisis (increase estate taxes and high-bracket income taxes, cut the pork-barrel, and maybe even indulge in a little protectionism);

6) Support the working families (more college aid, universal health insurance); and

7) Do SOMETHING for the urban and rural poor (crack/meth neighborhoods) -- I don't know what but SOMETHING positive! (I.e., something besides throwing more people in jail).

My two-bits anyhow!

Chuck in Houston

earlier I said its b/w Denver and Colorado as to which city will be selcted the host city in the next few weeks, duh, its b/w Denver and New York City and my comment earlier that New York sends a bad message to voters remains. If we learned anything in '06 its that to win ,we must stop campaigning traditionally into only the big tradionally blue states and cities and must expand our base to places like Virginia, southern Ohio and Missouri, Montana and Colorado. One perception that progressives must break from is that we are primarily an eastern, unionized, big city party that doesn't give a damn about the west, midwest or rural voters. Linda has made that valid point here repeatedly and it is opinion that I deeply and honestly agree with. Let's not slip back into our bad habits in '08. That will be my test oncall as to which candidadte will get my unswerving loyalty: whatever candidate can prove that they best connect with voters in those unlikely states and communities. Not to slight anyone here from traditionally democratic strongholds like Pa, New York, Michigan, Illinois and Washington State. I want to choose those among our candidates who are best received in places like Roanoke, Richmond, Arlington, Pueblo,Bozeman,Branson and Sprinfield Mo. I have a wild idea. Why don't we schedule our Presidential primary debates in communities like that instead of traditional places like Detroit or Phildadelphia. Better stop before I offend some folks here.

Chuck in Houston for Bubba:

Soounds good, but aside from venues for conventions, what platform points would make a difference there? Beyond that, we need ORGANIZATION on the streets, which we seem to be developing (from heresay -- I live in Houston/Medical Center and Wong blew Cohen out of the water, notwithstanding which COhen won by a comfortable margin, but then again, this is inside the loop SW Houston). DiAnne and Wild_Salmon and me had many disucssions on this with respect to East/West of the Cascades Oregon/Washington back on the old Kerry blog. So, how do we get to Tom Foley's old people back in Spokane? How did Tester win? (And the Goevernor of Montana.) Virginia I understand (my mom's a Virginian and all her people were since about, oh, 1650-1750). OK, I don't care about guns much (I don't think we should be free to buy M-16's and rocket launchers or Stingers but I have no problem with hunting weapons). Water and range and forest amd fishing and mineral rights issues are important in the West and SW I remember, but I am not willing to sacrifice sustainable development for some yahoo that wants to destroy the local environment forever. But these communities out there are not thriving and need help. That is an interesting dilemma to me. I'd love to hear some solutions.

Chuck in Houston
(came up in SE Portland, Hosford GS '75 Cleveland HS '79)

I meant WOng blew Cohen out of the water on organization.

My bad.

Chuck in Houston (Southgate)

Cohen won easily (Texas House):

State Rep. Dist. 134 In: 100%
Martha Wong, R (I) 19,669 43.1%
Ellen Cohen, D 24,953 54.7%
Mhair S. Dekmezian, L 998 2.2%

Chuck in Houston

PS: Gerrymandering is a state legislative issue (cf: my first post tonight)

Posted by: battlebob at November 11, 2006 02:51 PM

Well, darn.

I think there should be accountability demanded from Bush, Cheney, et. al. And then justice administered.

If a citizen of these United States breaks a law, they should expect to be held accountable for it. IMHO, every thing they have done wrong should be exposed and prosecuted.

Then I don't think we would have to worry about another conservative take over of power for a long while. They didn't play nice. People died. Families suffered. Veterans will suffer from this war until their dying days.

No sweeping it all under the rug just to play nice. They should be brought to justice - and I don't care if it takes two years. That may not be politically correct, or even feasible, but it is my $.02 worth.

Posted by: Bubba at November 12, 2006 01:07 AM

Bubba, I agree wholeheartedly.

The ONLY way the Dems will win in '08 is if they appeal to moderates and indies. Period.

Whoever runs had better make a very good plan of how to keep from debating the abortion issue. I think alot of people are in favor of gays having the same kind of civil rights the rest of the population has, they just disagree about calling their unions "marriages". The term "liberal" has a very bad connotation with many moderates and conservatives.

A great theme for framing this next year could be frames that dispel the old images the term "liberal" relays to people's minds. I took a test online to see where I fit in, and even with my obvious preferences on wedge issues, I still came out of the test as a strong liberal. I think women and men alike might be surprised to find out that they identify with most liberal principles....the caring, nurturing, fair qualities most liberals have.

Yes, Bubba, '04 was decided over fear of terrorism and the abortion issue.

I pray that most people will examine their positions on making that a frontrunning issue for '08. I insist that if they don't appeal to the moderates they will not win in '08.

"Appealing to the moderate" somehow strikes me as artificial. But I agree with the premise that the Dems have to continue to enhance their acceptance among moderates. But in the last election, Senator Kerry stood up for his principles - which many today would call moderate. He got the stuffing knock out of him by a bunch of lying thugs. He was painted as a traitor to his country and as an indecisive unprincipled politician without any plans. The media lapped it up and regurgitated it. Still he received the second highest number of votes ever for President. I don't want to rehash the last Presidential election and I am not making a pitch for Senator Kerry, but I believe the next election will be focused not on gay rights so much as it will be focused on civil rights, economic rights, foreign policy, energy independence, and - the big one - choice. The democratic party had several "pro life" (an artificial term if ever there was one) winners in the last election. It is how they are perceived and how much they support their party's candidate that will influence who can appeal to the "moderate".

Too much coffee after dinner.

I notice 'Impeachment' is not on your list..

Even though EIGHTY SEVEN PERCENT of this nation feels he should be impeached.

Was that a selective oversight to not add it..?

Democrats were not elected so they could make nice, they were elected to confront a man who was never LEGALLY elected. A mass murderer.

All this talk of playing nice and going along to get along, IS NOT THE MAINSTREAM POSITION.

This man almost MURDERED our nation and he has in fact literally murdered over a half a million people for lies. You and me or ANYONE ELSE would have already been drawn, quartered and hanged. What in the hell is so special about georgie that he can not be impeached...?

All this talk of 'bipartisianship'is going to make me vomit.

Eighty four percent IS a bipartisian concensus. The biggest one I have ever seen.

If the democrats DO NOT impeach him, then they are not doing their jobs and they do not deserve the power they were entrusted with.

No man is above the law. If you let georgie become so then 84% of us are left to wonder if it is because those now in power are ALSO IMPLICATED in what georgie has done...? Some of them very well are.

Yeah, see, now 'bipartisianship' really only means as long as you don't catch me I will let you get away with it too"

The ONLY way for dems to win in 08 is to PROVE TO US they can do their damn jobs and do the PEOPLES bidding.

84% is almost ALL of us. Disappoint those numbers and your days on the throne are just as numbered as his.

Sorry that should have consistantly been...

EIGHTY SEVEN PERCENT.

I dare one single person on this blog to say georgie has NOT committed any impeachable offenses.

Anyone...?

But yet we are supposed to ignore it and just focus on health care....?

If the laws of this nation are not upheld then there is no nation.

If he don't have to follow the law, than NONE OF US do either.

You were elected to save this nation, not pet it as it dies.

"I want to choose those among our candidates who are best received in places like Roanoke, Richmond, Arlington, Pueblo,Bozeman,Branson and Sprinfield Mo. I have a wild idea. Why don't we schedule our Presidential primary debates in communities like that instead of traditional places like Detroit or Phildadelphia. Better stop before I offend some folks here."
~~Posted by: Bubba at November 12, 2006 01:07 AM

You've got my vote. :-)

"Too much coffee after dinner."
~~Posted by: oncall at November 12, 2006 03:47 AM

LOL oncall.
On Liberal Values Ron mentioned Paul Waldman's article in The Boston Globe and quoted him writing, “Democrats did not win by moving to the center; they won because at the moment, they are the center. According to exit polls, independents voted Democratic by 57 to 39 percent.”

I'm not sure what you mean by "appealing to moderates" as artificial. ?? For example, I didn't see McCaskill as a moderate, I saw her as an old-fashioned populist. So, I dunno. Labels like moderate and conservate and etc. sort of worry me, because of their ability to paint a candidate into a box.

I liked Chuck's list above, but want to see healthcare up in the top seven.

At the risk of sounding trite, I think we can go back to Carville's 1992 maxium: "It's the economy, stupid."

This country is broken. We have precious little R&D, decent (living wage + health care) manufacturing or high tech jobs and people are worried about their children's future. I continue to think a focus around alternative energy could be the "let's go to the moon" boost that we experienced on JFK's watch and touch on all the issues mentioned above, along with including the environment and national security.

I want to see "America Be America" again, only better.

America will be America again when the will of 87% of the people is upheld. When our laws again mean something.

39 to 57 % is the middle..?

Then 87% must be what?

Oh yeah, ignored.

"I want to choose those among our candidates who are best received in places like Roanoke, Richmond, Arlington, Pueblo,Bozeman,Branson and Sprinfield Mo. I have a wild idea. Why don't we schedule our Presidential primary debates in communities like that instead of traditional places like Detroit or Phildadelphia. Better stop before I offend some folks here."
~~Posted by: Bubba at November 12, 2006 01:07 AM

You've got my vote. :-)

Posted by: kj at November 12, 2006 07:43 AM

Bubba - I like that idea as well. Frankly, I don't care a hill of beans where these things take place, and if there is some kind of strategy that will help our party then for god's sake lets have them somewhere else!

I'm not sure that the local audience is so important - "how the candidate is received" - because the national viewing audience is so huge. I tend to agree with the following from oncall:

Many consider media market as an important factor in considering the convention city. In today's high tech, informatic world, that is less of a consideration in my mind.

Posted by: oncall at November 12, 2006 12:22 AM

Christy, where are you getting your numbers?

Both the figures you cite in your post, which seem to alternate between a numerical 84% and an all-capitalized eighty-seven percent, are significantly higher than any other poll numbers I can find regarding how many Americans do or do not favor impeaching Shrubya.

This somewhat confusingly-phrased analysis is from Newsweek's most recent polling on the subject, at : "Other parts of a potential Democratic agenda receive less support, especially calls to impeach Bush: 47 percent of Democrats say that should be a 'top priority,' but only 28 percent of all Americans say it should be, 23 percent say it should be a lower priority and nearly half, 44 percent, say it should not be done. (Five percent of Republicans say it should be a top priority and 15 percent of Republicans say it should be a lower priority; 78 percent oppose impeachment.)"

That data is consistent with the other numbers I can track down, all of which are relatively consistent for the period of the last 10-12 months and all of which indicate that the percentage of Americans who support impeachment is in the low 50's at best.

A current 'live vote' question on MSNBC's web site does indicate that 87% of those responding to the question there favor impeachment; however, as we all know, website-based 'poll' questions are very easily skewed and are statistically meaningless as a result.

Before you start ranting at me for not agreeing with your intensely-held beliefs on the subject, let me state for the record that I personally believe impeaching this president for high crimes and misdemeanors while in office is completely justifiable on moral, ethical, and even legal grounds.

I do understand, however, that in the real world Democrats have grasped only a slim majority in Congress as of this last week, and that their long-term hold on power is still shaky at best. There is no pro-Democratic mandate here, at least not yet. A strong anti-neocon backlash may have carried them into power, but it has yet to be consolidated into a solid base of pro-Democratic support instead.

So pushing hard for impeachment right away would be both premature and pointless, since it would not have a snowball's chance of succeeding at this time and since doing so would paralyze forward motion on all the other critical initiatives that urgently need to be addressed.

Do I believe this president and members of his administration should be impeached and tried in court for their thousands of egregious violations of law, not to mention of ethics, morality and common decency? Absolutely. Do I think that impeachment can realistically be made to happen right away? Absolutely not.

Do I think it can be made to happen somewhere in the next two years, at least? Possibly. That depends a lot on what events transpire between now and the time his term of office is over. And let's not forget that he and his minions can still be held liable for prosecution after that time as well.

Anyway, that's just my own personal take on the subject. Yours is different, of course, and that is how it should be. I don't disagree with you on principle, though I do on practicality. But in any case, these are huge and quite complicated issues here; so if you're going to repeatedly cite specific numbers in support of your positions, please include references to their sources so we can assess their relative merits for ourselves.

just (100% of) my $.02,
Otter

Apologies if this has been previously posted:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1557842,00.html
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in abuses at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN

Do you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment? * 373512 responses

Yes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.
87%

No, like any president, he has made a few missteps, but nothing approaching "high crimes and misdemeanors."
4.4%

No, the man has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment would just be a political lynching.
6.5%

I don't know.
1.9%

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904

One more link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/us/politics/12class.html?hp&ex=1163394000&en=ceffce064221aee9&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Incoming Democrats Put Populism Before Ideology
By ROBIN TONER and KATE ZERNIKE
Published: November 12, 2006

Funny web based polls seem to be fine when it supports something we need it to support.

And this...

"Before you start ranting at me for not agreeing with your intensely-held beliefs on the subject,"

You know what... you say that then you wind up agreeing with me completely on legal moral and even ethical grounds.

"Before you start ranting.."

"intensely-held beliefs"...

"intensely-held beliefs"

"intensely-held beliefs"

You know what... On second thought... Nevermind.

Yall have a good morning.

Carol, Bubba, et al... having lived in cities where & when national political party conventions have been held, and having worked on them myself in logistical and technical support roles, I can testify from personal experience that there are a lot of factors involved that rule out most if not all of the available options when it comes to physical location.

The logistics involved are *huge*, and they severely limit the number of cities that have sufficient resources to support them. It's not just the size of the main venues available, though that's of course a major factor. But massive physical access by way of highways, airports, etc. is essential; many thousands of hotel rooms and restaurants and so forth must be available in close proximity for both the attendees and the huge throngs of media & support personnel that re required to accompany them; and, of course, there is also the issue of how successfully the venues and their surroundings can be made secure as well.

Only a relatively small number of American cities have the massive infrastructure required to support such a major national political party convention. It's a pretty short list, especially when you factor in the vast amounts of time & money involved as well as the necessary physical plant that staging such supersized conventions entails.

Shucks, just the sheer number of rental cars needed on hand for the duration of the event far outstrips the entire population of places like Branson and Pueblo... and don't *even* begin to contemplate the traffic jams on I-95 surrounding places like Richmond, ahem.

Until or unless the national political party conventions can be virtualized and the gigantic logistical demands they create can be greatly diminished, for better or worse we're pretty much stuck with their having to be held in large centralized locations like Atlanta, Denver, Chicago, etc. rather than in the smaller centers of population where most Americans actually reside.

which kinda sucks but what can you do,
Otter

Well Otter, you just blew my bubble with your spot on commen sense and experience, grrrr. So our little downtown and two hotels wouldn't cover it, eh? Rats.

I know! Virtually Linked Conventions!!!
What is that, you ask. Well... one convention held in 15 cities across the country... all linked via satellite feeds. We could do it. ;-)

Yeah, kj, but then what would we do with all the poor out-of-work hookers and meth dealers you'd be disenfranchising by decentralizing the conventions like that?

hookers and meth dealers need love too,
Otter

Posted by: Otter at November 12, 2006 08:34 AM

Good morning, Furry Guy. I was actually talking about debates, not the convention.

I agree with Bubba - the debates shouldn't be limited to the usual places, and iin my opinion could be held anywhere that has a major university.

Otter,

We'd be spreading the wealth around! Missouri is something like second in the country for meth production! Think of the opportunities... NY hooker comes to Springfield, teaches the latest techniques... CA meth tweeker comes to Springfield, learns the latest how to make meth in the trunk of your car techniques...
Now that's a populist approach, in my thinking.

My direction is different then anybody else’s direction.
Democrats want to stay in power for a long time; not just a short two year lease.

Here is a possible guide.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-weigant/happy-days-are-here-again_b_33844.html

First, get some easy wins such as raise the minimum wage.
Go after war profiteers.
Deal with Iraq after the Baker committee is done.
Notice what it says about impeachment, hearings and censure. Hearings should be ongoing and drag Bush through as much mud as possible.
Impeachment is only done if we know beforehand there is a majority in the House and a 2/3 majority in the Senate who would support it. We don’t want to make Bush sympathetic. Going for censure is easier. We can spend the next two years having investigations on various problems and pounding Bush at every turn and still get things done. The focus is on progress.

It only takes one Senator going to the Repub side to move the Senate back to Bush.

After a few victories and the public is happy about our direction, then go for the tougher issues such as health care.
We have to start talking realistically about Social Security and Medicaid. There are two Social Security factions: the CATO institute who wants to privatize it and economists like Paul Krugman who say just change the funding to two percent of GNP. Doing nothing is not an option.
Look at Medicaid and fix the prescription drug plan.
Look at our energy policy and move to a more comprehensive and renewable plan then just drilling holes in the ground.
Stop subsidizing polluters and demand clean air and water. Put carbon dioxide back on the list of dangerous gasses.
Give us our civil rights back and stop torturing people.
Each investigation should show what Bush did and what groups made the decision and dump as much crap on Bush as possible.
Get all sides in a room and hammer out the issues. Let the public see various sides of the problems.
If we decide to impeach first, that is the only thing the public will see and the important problem solving work Dems were hired to do will not be done. In 2008, we will loose the Senate and once again loose the White House. In the election after that, we will loose the House and we will be right back where we were on November 6; except the public will no longer listen to us.

We are at a point of time where we can change the direction of the country for a generation; but only if we are smart and disciplined about it.

The ideas are to solve problems; get the public to want us to hang around for a long time; bury the Conservative philosophy and pound Bush whenever possible.

If we concentrate on pounding Bush, we will not solve problems and we will loose the public again. Congress ground to a halt during Clinton’s impeachment and Clinton’s popularity went up.

Posted by: Carol at November 12, 2006 08:56 AM

Putting debates in colleges is done a lot.
Most have a decent sized auditorium and it gets the students excited about the issues.

When the third debate in 2004 was in Tempe, it really fired up the populace. Unfortunately, soon after that, the Dems abandoned Arizona and we got hammered.
So the lesson learned is to have the debates in colleges and have a strong state organization to take advantage of it.
We need more Howard Dean.

"So the lesson learned is to have the debates in colleges and have a strong state organization to take advantage of it.
We need more Howard Dean."
~~Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 09:08 AM

YES YES YES

The isolation nearly killed us in 2004 and the inclusion in 2006 is THE WAY to keep the people connected in the future.

battlebob, what do you think about Gates?

I know many anti-abortion folks who have willingly moved the discussion to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
Think of it as a supply-side discussion.
This involves a lot more then Roe Vs. Wade. Now we get into social, economic and cultural issues; things Dems always talk about. The idea is to make people’s lives; before, inside and out of the womb; the focal point of the discussion.

I think the G/L discussion is moving to separating marriage and state. People get their civil rights from the state and their religious blessings from what ever church is willing to do it. People are seeing it as a fairness issue

And if not Gates, who?

Don't mean to put you on the spot, I'm just undecided about him and value your take.

I mean, he's Poppy's man, but is that necessarily a bad thing for the next two years?

In my research, Gates is another party hack who beat the Iran Contra rap by claiming he couldn't remember.
He is a career spy so being secretive and closed-mind is natural with him.
Shouldn't the Secretary of Defense know something about the military?

If Bush wanted to be bold, he would nominate Wes Clark; who is my nominee for the same position for Dems in 2008.
It would bold; there is no debate about his qualifications and character; and it would show Bush is serious about resolving the conflict. It would also get public support back.

But Bush is not capable of doing it. How about Colon Powell?
Nope, we are stuck with another low-life party hack from Daddy's time. The end result will be more deaths and destruction.
Gates can once again say he knows nothing about it; it was the other guy.

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nut, there is a reason I write "Bush Inc." And Bush Inc is reason I think Bill Clinton has become Poppy's newest/smartest new son and the reason I won't support a Hillary!2008 campaign. Poppy is the man in the suit.

Do you think the Dems could mount a campaign for their own choice as SecDev? Is this something important enough to get behind? Would giving the position to Gates give Poppy another two years to consolate power? Or just let this one go and focus on 2008?

And yes re: Wes Clark. That was also my choice of position for him in 2004.

Carol was right about my point Otter that the Convention will either be in Denver or New York and thatmy references wqere to the debate locations not the impending convention site location. My guess is that it will be New York b/c of the New York media market with the Times newspaper,and radio outlets etc. Denver has a shortage of hotel space and labor issues, although a new Convention Center and if it looks like it is McCain they will probably, although incorrectly write off most of the west.

My point about places like Roanoke, Bozeman and Branson is that those were the sorts of places our candidadtes like Webb, Tester, and McCaskill appealed to and which carried them to victory. I am still hopeful about the under 25 year old vote but the precinct I polled watched for had a small turnout of only 345 voters but I swaer I didn't see much more than 10 of those 345 voters as college age so I am not so caught up on debates at college campuses. Perhaps a large VFW hall or in a barn in Bozeman or somewhere near a fishing area in N.O. or hunting lodge. The point I am trying to make is that tv imagery is as important as what our candidates actually say in their debates, and just holding our Convention at Madison Square Gardens and our debates at ASU or Georgetown does not send the message or connect with the voters we will need to once again reach in '08. Maybe I am way off base here otter, I would just like to see more of a non traditional campaign in '08.

I would like us to have a realistic debate on abortin and Gay/Lesbian issues.
Baker’s goal is to save the Bush Iraq legacy. If at the same time it gets us out of Iraq, stabilizes the country, and rebuilds the infrastructure then I am fine with it.
But if it leaves a ruined country behind then I have some problems with it. If cutting and running means we toss the keys and leave our troubles behind then that is wrong. If it means we left the country in the same physical state we found it then I am fine with it.
Maybe it means we open Home Depot and Loews on every corner and hand out building supplies to rebuild?
Maybe it means we allow facility companies from Europe to rebuild their delivery systems?
Maybe it means we encourage neighboring countries to supply police and soldiers to stop the violence?
It does not mean we duck our responsibility to restore the country. It may mean we finance it, but others actually do it.
It means we stop building the 14 military bases and the giant green-zone embassy.

There are many good ideas from folks such as Kerry and McGovern. Now is the time to listen to them.

Thanks, battlebob.

Clark could not be the Sec of Def in 2004 because it requires being seperated from active duty service for at least 5 years. He retired in 2000 so he was just shy of the mandatory time.

Posted by: Otter at November 12, 2006 08:14 AM

Hear, hear!
Here, here!

With so much to do, it's important to consider what is possible to achieve and what is important in the long run.

Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 09:53 AM
Right, I completely forgot.

I think the all-encompassing word "culture" is what I would like to focus on these next two years. As you said above, G&L&Trans, civil unions, abortion, healthcare, taxes, jobs, jobs, jobs, R&D and of course, alternative energy. I want to hope that this time, the international scene will BE overseen with input from Kerry and Biden and etc., and give the citizen patriots time to build on this last victory here at home. Which is sort of why I'm thinking of letting the Gates nomination go through with out my protest. Unless of course, someone convinces me otherwise.

Clinton appointed William Cohen who was a retired Repub Senator and he did pretty well. Note, we were fighting in Bosnia and later Somalia but there was no big theater battle.

I would prefer a person with military experience since we are in a major war.
You could argue that we are trying to get out so maybe we need someone with statesman or political abilities.

The military is going through some massive restructuring which involves many new weapons systems to fight smaller-scale wars.

That is why Clark is my choice as he has experience in Bosnia working with other countries and his experience is recent enough that he is familiar with the new weapons and roles.

Gates has been out of the picture for a while. What no one is saying is the State Department under Rice has become a non-entity. What we are asking the SecDef to do are tasks SecState should do. Rumsfeld was actually SecState while Rice did nothing except buy shoes.
So Bush should be looking for another SecState and Rice should be looking for another husband.

My own thoughts are cabinet positions are essentialy employees of the Pres. If they screw up, it reflects on him.
Gates will be approved but not before taking some serious body shots about his former activities. If he screws up - and he probably will - this will be more ammo for the Dems.

Unfortunately, his ability to get us out and resolve the bloodshed should be questioned. So when he screws up, more folks will needlessly die.
Hopefully, the debate is about how he hopes to succeed.
Hopefully, I am wrong about him.

Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 09:47 AM

I agree completely-- to walk out of Iraq leaving no viable infrastructure is no more ethical than it was to occupy the country in the first place. In leaving, we must plan with the Iraqis and others to prevent the kind of collapse that now appears imminent. We can't go on as we are now, but we should leave by the highest road possible.

The 87% figure for impeachment was taken from a large sample but it was not randomly selected to represent the population - therefore it does not represent 87% of the people. It's hard to say what it represents if it was a Newsweek internet poll, as right now more people favoring impeachment may be on-line.

I am having problems with Pelosi’s statement of just leaving. True, the bloodshed will probably be reduced. However, there must be enough military/police support to stop the violence. People are people and there are instances where the public has stepped up and stopped the violence when the troops left (mainly in the South).
But that still leaves the problems of rebuilding, internal and external security, and what kind of government.
We can finance the rebuilding. We can encourage neighboring Muslim countries to take over the security. The load on the local forces will decrease once we leave. But we have no control over what kind of government they have. I am encouraged by how the local government leaders are pushing the US away. If they are to be successful, then they have to show they are not Bush lackeys. Disagreeing with us shows their independence from us and makes their government more legitimate. It may not be the Jeffersonian Democracy we used to have (and I hope and pray we get back). But it may be a government that is supported by the local folks enough to continue. I don't really care what kind of governmnet it is as we will have litttle to say about it. I hope it is one that doesn't murder its own people (Sadaam II). But there is little we can do about it if it is.

You can read fifty net articles and everyone wants the Dems to solve problems.
Some of the newbees are conservative, some are liberal, most are pragmatic.
No one in Congress is going to come out and say their goal is to impeach Bush. It is suicide for the Dems.
They can investigate, censure, show that Bush is the worst Pres in our history.
But unless a majority of the House and 2/3 of the Senate jumps up and says they will support impeachment they must not even utter the word.

Great discussion to wake up & read about what to do about Iraq & that's a hard one! Looks like it comes down to a battle between the neocons and the pragmatists. If Bush has gone to his dad's advisers, and ideologically-driven neocons have less influence, the people don't support the status quo, so Bush is a lame duck - we can expect a shift. Firing Rumsfeld is a point for the pragmatists, as is the move to Democratic majority in the Legislative branch. Bush is still the big neocon who favor remaking the middle east by force. The neocons embraced the pre-emption doctrine and started the war. Bush has more in common with Reagan than with his dad, who was more of a realist than a revolutionary foreign policy radical neocon. Old school conservatism did not ignore diplomacy as communism collapsed. Bush's father didn't favor Condi Rice as qualified. Scowcroft didn't support going into Iraq in the first place nor did he approve of Cheney or Rumsfeld. Gates & Baker are still conservatives and partially responsible for young Bush getting into office and keeping him there (Baker, legal strategist in Florida; Gates, HAVA & electronic voting backer). Rumsfeld was a neocon and is gone. Gates is a realist and friend of Baker and Scowcroft, and Baker panel recommendations may be listened to. Gates has favored dialogue with N Korea & Iran. Will the malleable Rice be able to work with realists as well as neocons? She once worked for Gary Hart! There will still be neocon influence - World Bank Wolfie & then Elliot Abrams in the WH. Richard Perle is now criticizing the war even though he was instrumental in getting us in there!

McCain tells Russert this morning he will oppose increasing the minimum wage and voted against Arizona's minimum wage referendum. That needs to be portrayed as his opposing the working class. Battlebob your Semator has gone off the deep end.

I think the first thing US Congress should do is restrain the White House, using the Constitution. The Congress so far has worked to enrich their friends further. They have rubber stamped the Executive Branch so much that Bush didn't need to veto and abused the signing statement privilege.

The people spoke. Rumsfeld is out. It's common knowledge that he made no plan for what to do once Iraq was invaded. He actually planned to cut and run. He thought it would be a cakewalk. Then he refused to admit it. Now maybe we can get past complete denial about Iraq.

I haven't seen a comprehensive plan by anyone. We don't want more dead. We don't want to surrender to militias and insurgents. The Iraqi government is not going after them. We are going to have to engage with neighbors of Iraq. We haven't tried this yet! This is where getting rid of Rumsfeld is an opening. Baker survived the Cold War and knows deals can be cut. Tony Blair will meet with Baker's committee and maybe this will be more fruitful than his interactions with Bush. It also might be more possible now to get Israel-Palestine talks going. Bush has never acknowledged that this conflict creates much of the anti-Americanism in the middle east and world.

I know! Virtually Linked Conventions!!!

Posted by: kj at November 12, 2006 08:41 AM

If anybody can do it, I know who it is. His name is Richard Bell.

The big fight is not over the message; it is pretty obvious what to do as the options are limited.
The big fight is over what traits the messager should have and how it should be presented.

Their goal is to salvage the Bush legacy. So Gates will wander in and announce a plan that will probably resemble Kerry’s plan; as that is the plan all others include in their own words. There will be harrumphs of agreement and Bush will exit this bloody morass with a small mission accomplished. He can them go back to being publicly embarrassed. Historians will write volumes of books about the incredible stupidly BushInc exhibited.

There is precedence for this.
My dad was a union Dem since before WWII. Ike was the only Repub he ever voted for. He told me Ike’s main goal was getting us out of Korea. He came in, declared victory, and agreed to end the war at the same place it started. Ike then went back to playing golf.

Bubba,
sorry buddy...I live in Michigan now. I supported Stabenow for Sen and Granholm for Gov. Our Dem House rep candidate lost to Ehleres by a 2:1 majority.

McCain is not the same Senator I supported in the '90s.
Bush took something from McCain the Viet Cong could never remove; his spine.
He is an easy target in 2008. He is on the wrong side of almost every populist issue. He used to be more moderate and did not care for conservatives. He has been assimilated. He is now a Borg.

Feingold isn't running.

The big fight is not over the message; it is pretty obvious what to do as the options are limited.
The big fight is over what traits the messager should have and how it should be presented.

Their goal is to salvage the Bush legacy. So Gates will wander in and announce a plan that will probably resemble Kerry's plan; as that is the plan all others include in their own words.

Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 11:00 AM

So true. Personally, I can't continue to look backwards at what might have been. It only hurts. Now we have the chance to make right what has been broken by a petulant underachiever and the war criminals who have profited from his decisions. Whoever can make a positive change in Iraq, and whoever's plan it is immaterial to me. I am sick of the death and destruction.

During the 2000 election, I supported McCain big time by manning phone banks and coordinating field efforts.
We were doing pretty well until South Carolina. Then the most evil campaign ever was started by Rove and the rest of the Bush staff. We could not believe it and quite frankly had no means to counter it.
From calling McCain a traitor (his feet and arms are limited because of horrible treatment by the VC), to claiming he had a black child out of wedlock (he adopted a child from Pakistan) to his wife being a drug addict taking illegal drugs (she had problems with pain pills). There isn’t much you can do except deny the charges. They are variations on the old…”so have you beaten your wife recently?”… charges.
Another issue is McCain is a very high-ranking Repub and even if Bush won, he would have to work with McCain. We expected McCain would drive a high price for his treatment. At least get public apologies to his wife and son.
McCain slithered to Bush on his belly. McCain gave up his self respect to curry favor with conservatives. We were all outraged as Bush insulted us as well as McCain. I might even support Hillary if McCain runs.

Hi OC,
Did you see on Ron's blog where we were in your neck of the woods recently?
We gotta get together some time. Click on my name for the email address.

The problem with not looking back is what we did limits what we can do. Bush hopes to limit that by dumping Rummy. But the Iraqs aren't going to forget so quickly. The US will be flogged for our actions and deservedly so. But in the end, folks want to get on with their lives and will do what is best for themselves.

There will stiff be a gulf between Bush and the Democrats re the war. He continues to use "victory." Democrats talk about withdrawing troops, to put pressure on the Iraqi government. Will he compromise? Iraq is no where close to what he calls victory (stable government, able to defend itself). So Rummy is gone, but can there be a change in policy now? Will Bush follow recommendations of the Baker panel? Bush is still Commander-in-Chief but can get subpoenaed now, to account for lies leading to war and misuse of government contractors. Congress controls the budget for the war. We need to get out of Iraq without making things worse. Murtha always has ideas.

I just joined another peace group. They point out that not all options have to be military. Feingold isn't running because he wants to work from the Senate. Now the Senate may be workable.There won't be a magic bullet for Iraq but having a Democrat-led legislature and 41's people is like going back in time, in a sense, only the people now know they have been burned.

A long time ago, John Kerry told Bush to get help. He even mentioned James Baker, knowing that's one person the Bush family might listen to. Baker and Gates were with 41 and 43 at the launch of the USS GHW Bush. Gates was at the ranch for Laura's 60th birthday party. I think Gates is going to want to follow the Baker panel recommendations and only hope 41 listens. I think Pelosi is very smart and will work with business and across the aisle and also market the Democrats as the Big Tent Party, which we are. I hope that we will back her.

Bush and Blair Discuss Iraq Policy

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945874,00.html

We had better be coming to a fork in the road.

Whatever path Bush takes, it demands cooperation from not only Democrats but others in the region.
That is my biggest fear.
Dems can make a big stink about any plan Bush proposes but they have no control over the other stake holders in the region.
So if Dems call for more international cooperation and the international community says no then what does that do for Dems?
My big hope is the international community wants Middle East stability more then it wants to insult the US.
They can pobably force cooperation at a price.
Maybe more favorable trade agreements?
Maybe foreign access to defense contracts (something McCain wants)?
Maybe a plan to lower the deficit first and a promise to implement the plan?
Maybe assurances to not invade other soverign nations(Iran)?
Their help will not be free unless they are as sick of the slaughter as we are.

Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 12:11 PM

DiAnne
There is one department and significant name that is not mentioned in the article you linked to.

SecState and Rice.

Bush is saying either this is not a job for diplomacy or Rice is incompetent.

Battlebob
I agree that international cooperation is paramount. We need to drop some of our post-campaign partisan positions and figure out what to do. "We need to start making some friends on this planet." (John Kerry, 2002)

By the way, the candidate I worked hard for (Darcy Burner for US Congress) is losing - ballots are still coming in but I think it'll be Sheriff Reichert. Senator Maria Cantwell, however, is in China promoting clean energy.

I think Congress needs to press ahead with stopping the waste and corruption in Iraq. The profiteering must stop. When Congress authorizes funds for Iraq, the Republicans must stop sneaking in provisions which undermine reconstruction and line the pockets of contractors. The job of Congress is oversight. Now they need to do the investigations that the Republicans have shut down, and use subpoena power if they have to.
We need a new focus in Iraq but we need to get rid of the fraud in military contracting. It's our tax money, all of us - Democrat, Republican, Independent. So if Collins (R), Feingold (D) and Lieberman (I) can work together, so be it! The spending in Afghanistan and for Hurricane Katrina also needs to be looked at, and secret detentions and torture. More Henry Waxman probes, less Jay Rockefeller stonewalling. Everything can't be "classified for national security."

"I think Pelosi is very smart and will work with business and across the aisle and also market the Democrats as the Big Tent Party, which we are. I hope that we will back her."
~~Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 12:04 PM

I certainly plan to. Her passion and presence impressed the socks off me at Boston.

Pelosi is a worthy "First Grandmother" to be Speaker of the House.

"If anybody can do it, I know who it is. His name is Richard Bell."
~~Posted by: oncall at November 12, 2006 10:53 AM

Why, you just might be right. @;-) Let's ask him.

Oh, for cryin' out loud, DiAnne, you and those pesky peace groups of yours! Hasn't anyone ever told you that peace is a very highly over-rated concept, *especially* since 9/11 changed everything? Sheesh. Come on and get with the program already, girl!

peace is only for wussies and girlie-men and we both know it,
Otter

Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 10:33 AM

I am reading from the bottom up and sometimes out of order. BB, I don't think Nancy P will advocate just getting up and leaving Iraq. At least, I hope not. We broke Iraq, we can't leave it broken.

"Richard Perle is now criticizing the war even though he was instrumental in getting us in there!"
~~Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 10:39 AM

That's when I knew the jig was up, game over, lady sang.

Again, I go back to exposure. The emperor is naked. Iraq is a disaster. The Taliban are back in Afghanistan. America is bankrupt and broken. No more fairy tales to put us to sleep, or scary dragon stories to keep us blindly loyal to incompetent thieves.

We've grown up as a country. I honestly think we'll all do the right thing, Congress and the Baker commission and do the right thing for Iraq and Afghanstan. I think if we left both of those countries broken, because of a misdirected murderous hissy fit after 9/11/01, there will be no international support for anything we propose.

I'm with ya, bubba & company -- national party conventions may need to be held in certain logistically-workable venues out of necessity, but national policy debates & hearings & town meetings can and should be held anywhere a satellite uplink truck can be parked (which, as anyone who's ever watched CourtTV knows, is essentially anywhere there's a dirt road and an electrical outlet nowadays).

More to the point, though, national policy debates & hearings & town meetings can and should be held any *time*, too -- not just during the runup to an election cycle every couple or four years, but on an ongoing basis anytime there's something on the table that affects the public weal and needs to be addressed in a rational, reasonable manner.

...which is also to say, certain high-profile poliblogs & their beltway-centric counterparts notwithstanding, practically all the time and practically anywhere there's a dirt road and an electrical outlet nowadays.

We have the technology to make the founding mothers' & fathers' vision of an ongoing national government-by-referendum determined by an endless series of small-town hall meetings a virtual reality. So by yr hmbl otr crspndnt's lights it would only be right and just that we should insist on using that technology to do so, early & often & by any means necessary.

democracy happens all the time not just in alternating even-numbered years,
Otter

Posted by: Otter at November 12, 2006 01:11 PM

Do we need a separate television station? Townhall Meetings All The Time?

Only if we can get Nancy Grace, Rush Limbaugh, Aaron Brown, and Richard Bell to co-anchor the broadcasts.

Oh god no, none of them. (Sorry, Dick) No big names. Sponsored by the League of American Voters (men and women). Average, everyday citizen patriots serve as hosts for their own town hall meetings.

No spin, no chitchat, no "this is what they really said." Nothing spoon fed. Nothing.

Actually, Aaron Brown is just another average, everyday citizen patriot. Has been for years now.

Not so sure about that Bell fella, though.

I'm actually not kidding. LOL Not even Aaron Brown, not even Bill Moyers, not even Richard Bell. Just local townhall meetings with local Master/Mistress of Ceremonies. And no spin afterwards. No "faces" or names, unless their running for something and they're on the hot seat.

Not even Stephen Colbert!!! ;-)

Everyone will have to be accountable for everything they say, and the viewers will be the ones who decide for themselves what actually was said.

We gotta grow up as a country. We gotta quit expecting to have everything explained to us like we're in fifth grade. (Except for me, I need things explained like I'm in fifth grade, but I'm the only one. Just me. hahahahah!)

It's way past time for Americans to step up. Maybe I'm still full of post-election giddy hope, but I think we're going to step up from now on. I think the bar has finally been raised and whoever doesn't meet it will be left behind to wait for the rapture that isn't going to come.

But then I'm an unrealistic optimist. I get up before dark every morning just to see the sun come over the horizon.

White House intent on Bolton for U.N. envoy
Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/vjox6

Hmm.

Good to know that the White House clearly still is, in the inimitable words of their very own official press secretary when addressing Suzanne Malveaux during a recent equally-official on-the-record press conference, "smokin' rope."

just hope they brought enough for everybody,
Otter

Hamas is willing to talk with Israel. & don't think it's because Olmert is talking with Bush. I think it's because of presssure from other middle eastern countries. Hamas won the election but they're willing to have a unity government. Alot of credit has to go to Egypt and the rest of the Arab League. They don't want civil war on their doorstep. They are calling for an international peace conference. Someone has actuallly used the word peace.

These moderate middle eastern leaders are not necessarily going to carry out crippling sanctions just because the US and EU demand that they do. There are some big Arab banks and some very wealthy countries with clout of their own. They are not going to stand by and watch a humanitarian crisis that the west has largely ignored. Palestine has been a symbol in the middle east of oppression and the US has never really tried hard enough to build peace between Israel and Palestine. All they've done is repeated "Israel has the right to defend itself" and sold bunker busters and cluster bombs.

My husband just showed me a newspaper photo of troll Rove carrying a suitcase. Is it an omen?!

Israel has done fifty million dollars worth of damage to a Palestinian town. They say it was an accident but now Palestinian groups are threatening terror attacks against US targets. Regardless of what help we give to Isael, we are blamed because our policy in America has pretty much been to ignore the Arab/Israeli conflict, regardless of party in leadership. Maligned Jimmy Carter was probably the last to care enough to write a book about it.

We vetoed the UN resolution to condemn the destruction of the Palestinian town. We have been an ally of Israel but why do we go against the will of the world? Do we have to go so far when there is so much at stake? Can't we ever be even-handed? Can't we think ahead? "9/11 changed everything" - well we were never told the truth about why 9/11 happened. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict was ignored by the US and we didn't take our troops out of Saudi Arabi after the Gulf War. Did we think these slaps in the face would have no effect?

People in the middle east are hearing that US officers participated in the destruction of the Palestinian city. This may not be true but have we been efficacious in figuring out how to counter propaganda? Sending Karen Hughes didn't work? In the past such threats haven't been carried out, only kidnappings with quick release.

THis isn't my point. It's that we have not dealth in our foreign policy with the trigger point of anger for many Muslims throughout the world. All we would need to do is focus on the Israel/Palestine peace process in particular. We have not done so. It has been low priority. We have instead had people like Condi Rice who endleslly lament about Syria and Iran but refuse to talk with them. We have had a president who referred to the "Axis of Evil."

McCsin is going to decide over Christmas whether he's running for President in 2008. Give me a break. He's old and he looks awful.

Heck, if that's the salient criteria then we might have Paris Hilton in the White House by 2008 instead.

only which would be the more disturbing option,
Otter

Posted by: battlebob at November 12, 2006 11:45 AM

I meant looking back in terms of John Kerry's plans for Iraq and getting us out of that unGodly disaster.

I will send you an e-mail so that you will have mine and we can get together. I look forward to that.

Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 02:03 PM

Sing it!

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our mind
Have no fear for atomic energy
Cause none of them can stop the time
How long shall they kill our prophets
While we stand aside and look
Some say it's just a part of it
We've got to fulfill the book

Won't you help to sing
These songs of freedom
Cause all I ever had
Redemption songs
All I ever had
Redemption songs
These songs of freedom
Songs of freedom

get up stand up,
Otter

Interesting analysis by Frank Rich.

2006: The Year of the ‘Macaca’

By FRANK RICH

Perhaps the most interesting finding in the exit polls Tuesday was that the base did turn out for Mr. Rove: white evangelicals voted in roughly the same numbers as in 2004, and 71 percent of them voted Republican, hardly a mass desertion from the 78 percent of last time. But his party was routed anyway. It was the end of the road for the boy genius and his can’t-miss strategy that Washington sycophants predicted could lead to a permanent Republican majority.

What a week this was! Here’s to the voters of both parties who drove a stake into the heart of our political darkness. If you’ll forgive me for paraphrasing George Allen: Welcome back, everyone, to the world of real America.

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/opinion/12rich.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

Posted by: oncall at November 12, 2006 03:46 AM

In the spirit of understanding, not argument, I guess I don't understand how having a bit tent, or appealing to moderates and indies is insincere. Let's face it. We do agree on most issues - it is the fringes that polarize - that's why Rove uses the wedge issues so successfully.

I said along time ago that I don't think it is worth it to lose control of our nation to the Neocon's over one or two issues, and that is what is has become - until this year. And this year, we had Katrina paving the way to open people's eyes - along with disatisfaction over Iraq. That and the other crimes. People have short memories. I don't ever sell Rove short, and you can count on him using abortion over and over and over. I'm sorry, but that is the situation as I see it.

understand how having a bit tent, or appealing to

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at November 12, 2006 04:29

that should be "big" tent, not bit tent.

'06 in my opinion was decided by rurals and religious "values" voters. Nobody says you have to agree with them, but it would be very smart to find alot of ways to help them see that they too can be liberals and hold on to their own values.

I mean, all I have to do is remember how freaked out we were when we were losing our freedoms bit by bit.

It's not because I think everyone should hold the same positions I do. It's because I honestly think that if you don't have a big tent that appeals to alot more than the far left, you lose.

And, oncall, as I vividly remember election night '04, I watched the metropolitan areas come in (sometimes by wide margins, many by slim margins) blue, but it was the little bitty votes that came in from the rural and religious areas that added up and took the country red. I watched it state by state, sometimes county by county.

And as I said, after living the past few years in a rural area after being in a metropolitan area for many years, I see cars packed solid all the way down our main street parked in front of the Catholic and protestant churches here in rural America. They don't like abortion. Period.

So we have to think of a way to appeal to their value system, if we want to keep control.

People can deny it all they want, but IMHO I have seen it first hand and I know that it is what it is.

Is having a bigger tent being manipulative? If it is, who benefits and who is hurt by it? I personally don't think being a bit manipulative is wrong, as long as it is in the best interest of everyone in the long run.

But that's just my added $.02 worth.

Can I just ask, what kind of big tent is this? I am only familiar with a few:

1. Circus tent

2. Revival/prayer meeting tent

3. Party tent (i.e. wedding, reunion, etc)

4. Sale tent (where a bunch of cheaply-made items from overseas that you really don't need are sold for such rock-bottom prices that you buy two or three anyway and then wonder where the heck you're actually going to put them; eventually they end up making the round of garage sales at every house in your neighborhood)

So which one is it, please?

Otter,

I came back to ask you a question.

I live in a nation where police protect serial killers. As far as I know you live here too.

We live in a time when the president is committing murder daily and committing impeachable offenses with every week that passes. He don't even bother to hide it anymore. He has no reason to really.

Our elected officials are more worried about raping our kids than funding their education.

All the treaties and laws I was taught must be honored and upheld have been gutted and even now are being flagrantly violated by those entrusted with their upkeep.

I live in a nation where I still hear the word 'n*gger' at least 4 times a week.

When you say 'intensly held beliefs' I can only wonder, what BELIEFS are you reffering to exactly...?

As far as I can see there is nothing left to believe in here. Not anymore.

Perhaps when it comes to doing the right thing, at the right time, my generation will work out a better solution than the ones we will inherit this mess from.

And maybe then, I will be able to regain my faith.

Until then though, my children are expected to bow to the rule of torturers and mass murderers.

That is not a 'belief' that is just the way it is.

Tell me which beliefs it is of mine that are the problem and in the name of this nation I will redeem myself... Please tell me, I must know...?

Will any of those being murdered in my name today be saved by such a compromise?

If you tell me yes, I promise I will BELIEVE IT. I need to believe it.

White House would consider the idea of US talks with Syria and Iran if that's what the panel recommends.

He also says the White House is "looking forward to a dialogue" with the Democrats, who will be taking control of Congress.

wiw

Also saw Borat - those offended need to think why. The couple behind us was actually from Khazistan and laughed especially hard at the sequences lampooning their country. (It's banned in Russia & the Khzsistan govt ran a NYT ad against it b/c it would be embarrassing if people took it all literally). Hey it's comedy - feminists were fair game, rodeo people, car dealers, frat boys (like Bush was). As for the antiSemitic part, Cohen is Jewish and yes there was alot of antiSemitic humor but it made fun of paranoid Jew haters like the character Cohen played and his partner. Similarly it made fun of the frat boys as being as racist, homophobic and mysoginistic as the character Cohen played. It made fun of the feminists but also of the mysoginists such as the frat boys and the character Cohen played.

If you can't laugh at yourself and the world around you, it's a sad world and you're not thinking. I do agree with Linda that the scene of the naked men wrestling was gross. They finally managed to find something that offends everyone.

The previews for Fast Food Nation looked promising.

My understanding of Big Tent is that the moderates and independents who made this midterm election possible, along with their more liberal sisters and brothers, will be accomodated. It was done under Clinton and Gore and it will be done again because there is no other choice. The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party will not be calling the shots, though they will have and have had an influence. It's not my idea, it's the way political reality has worked in America for decades. Just be glad the religious fundamentalists and neocons have lost their foothold in the political sphere. As for Nancy Pelosi, it means she will not treat the whole United States of America as if it is San Francisco, and again, that is how the system works. Now we should not be hearing so much about the south and west being ignored.

Posted by: oncall at November 12, 2006 03:46 AM

"Appealing to the moderate" somehow strikes me as artificial.

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at November 12, 2006 04:29 PM

I also said in that posting, "But I agree with the premise that the Dems have to continue to enhance their acceptance among moderates."

The notion strikes me as artificial because by virtue of taking postions based on principled values "appealing" to moderates should not be a forced politically driven motive. Rather moderates will find what are considered today as "progressive" postions to be in synch with the "moderate" ideal such as a government that wont go bankrupt, lie to its citizens, create disunity where there is none, use a real threat to national security to invade privacy and so on.

The labels are meaningless. It is the policy and positions that will matter most. If our government is to be of and by the people, by default those working towards that goal will expand and enlarge their base. Hence, the "tent will get bigger" on its own and not because a concentrated effort to appeal to a certain group was followed.

I believe abortion is a good example. Polls say that most Americans believe in a woman's right to choose, and that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Also the South Dakota anti abortion law was voted down in that state. Polls don't say that Americans believe abortion is the most appropriate form of birth control. That is an extremist view and one that I have not heard anybody espouse. Still to have listened to the ultra Conservatives discuss it, one would have thought that pro Choice proponents were intent on ripping fetuses from pregnant womens' bodies. Moderates did not buy that characterization and therefore, they (moderates) while being anti abortion are not absolutely anti choice. Hence, the "appeal" is based on a sound, principled argument and position.

Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 05:38 PM

I should have just cut and pasted DiAnne's comment, but I think you get my drift.

Christy,

The intensely-held belief of yours to which I was referring -- or at least what from reading your comments earlier I can safely assume to be an intensely-held belief of yours -- is that the current president of this country can, should, and must be impeached immediately as one of the highest priorities of our newly-elected majority leadership on the Hill.

I agreed with you, as you noted, that the current president president of this country can and should be impeached, at least on paper. I disagreed with you about the 'must ... immediately' part, and I disagreed with you about the ranking priorities and the relative power of our newly elected (and rather thin-) majority leadership on the Hill.

I'm on the same page as you are about the ethical, moral, and even legal grounds that can be used to justify immediate impeachment proceedings. From a pragmatic political perspective, however, I just don't see it as being realistically feasible to successfully initiate such proceedings at this time.

I agree with you about the rationales and the motivations here, just not about the practicality of the newly-empowered Dems That Be acting on them in what you would consider to be a timely fashion.

In theory, theory and practice are almost always the same thing; in practice, however, they almost always are anything but.

yes that sucks but it's also a realistic way of looking at it,
Otter

I wonder what it would be like to live in Iraq and have to try to think about the future? I doubt people living there are very hopeful after all this time. Everyone knows we have lost control of Bagdad. The Administration is now reduced to damage control. They cannot explain why there are about as many troops there now as when we started. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been trained. The goal seems now to be to bring the violence down, not to end it, but the Iraqi military seems to have been infiltrated, along with the police forces, by militia members and insurgents. So how can they stop the killing? The Iraqi government seems powerless or unwilling to stop these people from infiltrating. The head of the biggest Shiite militia is represented in the government! How can there not be civili war when this is the case?! The Sunnies have pretty much been forced out of government - it's no coalition. So they have no oil. If they aren't part of the political process and can't share the oil, they will be more likely to join the insurgency. The US needs to talk to Syria and Iran. Bush has refused. He needs to listen to Blair, Baker and Gates if this is what they recommend. He needs to listen to his dad, Scowcroft and Powell. Ask Rand Beers what he thinks. Ask Clinton. The US has no choice now. No one should ask McCain, as he'll say to sne in more troops. That would not make dangerous neighborhoods easier to patrol. It would just create more targets. It's hard to imagine how we are making the Iraqi people safer. Seems the more troops the insurgents and militias can see, the more incentive they're have to fight. We can't count on the publich supporting a bloodbath. Vietnam set a precedent. I don't thinkk there is a way to "win" - don't think "victory" applies. I think it's broken. Can't wait to hear the recommendations of the paleoconservatives, which is all we have, and the Democrats can weigh in. There isn't going to be a simple way out. Deja vu Vietnam.

You are hoping to gain bipartisan consensus by bartering with the very ones who are responsible for treason, torture and other various high crimes and misdomeanors.

You are in essence asking your rapist to please be nice to you from now on.

The only one that benefits from all the talk of 'bipartisianship' is the one responsible for raping our country. Every time you say it he delays being called to account for just a little while longer while we all argue about unity.

Yes, investigations and probes are good, but very very quickly they will uncover crimes of huge magnitude and appalling cruelty. We already know who committed these crimes and when, and the longer you hesitate the more people die horribly for nothing.

Any investigation will turn up immediate evidence of wrongdoing on his part,if it is in fact an actual investigation at all.

Will we THEN begin this conversation all over again or will we just ignore it again pretending it will just go away as long as it is not an option?

Do any single one of you doubt those crimes are about to be uncovered....? Are we suppossed to act surprised and waste more time wringing our hands wondering what on earth can be done?

I do not say impeach him RIGHT NOW but within the next 6 months we will all have to decide what it is we really do believe in and what on earth are we going to do?

Our Founding Fathers gave us a way to save ourselves. The laws they wrote are the only thing that matters at any time.

Trust them, if for no other reason than they trusted in all of US to do the right thing.

And the right thing is impeach him and maybe even try him for war crimes.

Really in the end, it IS our only way out.

PS... If yall want to win the abortion debate quit calling it abortion and focus on the CIVIL RIGHTS aspect of it.

That is why so many support it at the polls even if the word 'abortion' makes their skin crawl.

The big tent you are looking for is the one called Civil rights, it is the only tent where all of us are welcome.

The real war is in Lebanon, I think. The government there is weak and Iran and Syria back Hezbollah. We stayed out of the conflict with Israel. Hezbollah now has more clout within the government as it's close to having veto power. They're in crisis mode and this is the next thing to fighting Iran and Syria without being in actual combat with them. We need to talk to them.
We had Marines in Beirut in the 80s and we're close again if the government there is toppled, and it's close. Hezbollah supports Palestinians, so chances of peace with Israel could be ruined.
Got to get those guys to the tables too. We're in Iraq but if we have to deal with Iran too, or even Syria, it would be much harder to stabilize Iraq. Hezbollah is actually popular in Syria now, whereas before the conflict with Israel, Lebanese were glad to get rid of Syrian factions in their government. Things changed overnight because of the asymmetrical war with so many civilians killed. Now Hezbollah is close to dominating the Lebanese government and once again. As in Gaza, we did not deal with the Israeli/Palestine and Israeli/Hezbollah conflicts as serious matters and this brings the Shiites of Iran, Iraq and Syria closer to banding together in a theocratic manner, rather than the more moderate Sunnis such as the more moderate Arab nations are made up of. It isn't safe to have a nuclear armed Iran/Iraq/Syria coalition.

DiAnne, no simple way out, and even though dictators and Stalin-est types are no longer vogue, a religious reign with just as tight a control could set-up shop when we leave. Creating another Afghanistan, which also needs re-building, pronto.

The entire invastion of Iraq was blind/stupid/dumb on its face. Events entirely predictable. And now we need as many brains as we can find to design a solution that has a chance of taking hold without ceding power to the religious extremists.

This misAdministration washed its hands of the Israeli/Palestine conflict. Washed their hands and walked away. But we've stayed friends with the Saudi Royals and that is GWB's legacy. A relationship the next US President is going to have to unravel. It will get ugly before it gets good in the Middle East.

Without some brillance and luck, we're basically left with doing what the Allies did after WWII. Divide up factions within countries and draw border lines where there were no border lines. We've seen how well that approach works.

And we have to fix Afghanistan. We have to rebuild that country. No, we didn't break it completely, it was broken before, but we've played a part in the destruction since what, the 1970's?

We have to help Afghanistan. It is the red-haired stepchild in these discussions. (Not here, but in the country as a whole.)

Tried to read "Ghost Wars" and it is so dense, and so depressing, I couldn't finish it. Which I feel terrible about, because I need to know this history.

Ron has a post up at Liberal Values (click on my name) "The Democrats and the Big Tent/"

http://www.testerforsenate.com/issues

Look at this link. Here is a good example of what I said upthread. These can hardly be called extreme positions and "moderates" like most Americans find his positions to be similar to their own. The tent gets bigger because a politician spoke to what many people were feeling.

I'm ready to chuck labels. Except I'm sorta liking Populist these days. :-)

This is a good diary worth reading. I have included small snips,

We're All Conservatives Now

by SusanG

Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 10:21:11 AM CST

I woke up Wednesday morning and found out I was a conservative. See, a whole slew of candidates I supported were elected - enough to form a majority that will work to pass legislation of which I wholeheartedly approve - and I discovered from pundits that this is evidence of how conservative America really is. Since the outcome is precisely what I hoped for, I must be a "conservative Democrat" too.

SNIP

Yes, I'm a "conservative Democrat" and I agree with the upcoming agenda I've seen floating around here and there: oversight hearings on Iraq and spending, raising the minimum wage, nationalizing health insurance for everyone under 25 as Howard Dean suggested on The Daily Show, using skillful diplomacy as a first resort and military force as a last one, restoring the checks and balances of the Constitution, outlawing torture, re-legalizing habeas corpus.

These are "conservative" ideas? Cool. I'm hinky with it. Call them what you like, just implement them.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/10/112111/08

I suppose supporting stem cell research is conservative too. And advocating civil unions. And pushing for alternative energy (and saying "bye bye" to the Saudis) Yep, conservative. hahahaha!

Bush faces GOP ire over Rumsfeld timing
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061112/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_rumsfeld
~~~~~~~~~~~~

They're dreaming if they think ditching Rummy before election would have saved them... grasping at straws...

Found this little gem on DailyKos..

The Bombs Play On
by DarkSyde
Sun Nov 12, 2006 at 04:32:30 AM PST
In the midst of America's well earned sigh of relief following last Tuesday's mid-term election, let us not lose sight for even a moment that human beings from both the US and Iraq are still paying dearly for Bush's colossal blunder:

MSNBC -- BAGHDAD, Iraq - A suicide bomber blew himself up outside a police recruiting center in Baghdad early Sunday, killing at least 33 people and wounding 56, police said. ...
The attack was one of several on Sunday in the capital, where sectarian violence kills scores each week. Just south of the city, police were searching for gunmen who killed 10 Shiite travelers and kidnapped about 50 others Saturday night along a notoriously dangerous stretch of highway.

If you are a small minnow or a medium sized fish with knowledge of the corruption past and present regarding any event pertaining to Iraq, your best bet is to consult a lawyer about coming forward. And you need to think about doing it quickly, because the big fish are almost certainly scheming and shredding and setting up to save their scaly hides by blaming the smaller marine denizens: like you.

Labels

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool liberal but I am a pragmatic one.

As a dyed-in-the-wool but pragmatic liberal, I despise Ollie North and everything he stands for.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,228519,00.html

He actually has a Fox News column in which it's easy to see he's not happy about 41's influence on 43.

Ollie North should not even be walking around free.

Ollie North is a doink.

And he should effing well be breaking rocks at Ft. Leavenworth right now, too.

Posted by: V at November 12, 2006 05:08 PM

It's the big dress the fat lady wears when she sings.

Ollie North is really scared about what's going to be in James Baker's reports. His worst nightmare is a dialogue with Syria and iran, or North Korea. Phased troop withdrawal makes Ollie North's skin crawl. Ollie North is not on any powerful Senate committee. He has his little column at Fox News. He is probably almost cataplectic at the thought that Bush is talking with Democrats, meeting with his father's advisors and making "course adjustments." His press secretary is preparing the way for this, and the report hasn't even been presented yet. Ollie North blatantly says that the Israel/Palestine crisis is not really related to the situation in Iraq and other hot spots. That's because he wanted to pursue the neocon plan. He's not going to be happy at the military itself because they're also ready to show flexibility under people like Pace and Abizaid, who are admitting Iraq has descended into civil war. As near as I can tell, the thinking of Ollie North and McCain are similar - more troops. I think they are living in a prior world where we were supposed to be fighting the Domino Theory of communism.
It won't be long til we hit the 3000 mark in Iraq, the four year mark! This many wounded: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Conservatives for Peace

http://www.againstbombing.org/

Posted by: Christy at November 12, 2006 06:55 PM

Of course, as I stated upthread, I would like them to be held accountable. And then for justice to be served.

However, it is my opinion that all that not only must be done, but also can be done in a no- nonsense, classy way. I think it's all a matter of presentation. And presentation is very important.

John McCain parked the Straight Talk
Express in the Brown Nose Garage.

If that works for you, feel free to pass it on.

– Mark Barrett

http://www.thepremise.com

From yesterday's presidential radio address:

One freedom that defines our way of life is the freedom to choose our leaders at the ballot box. We saw that freedom earlier this week, when millions of Americans went to the polls to cast their votes for a new Congress. Whatever your opinion of the outcome, all Americans can take pride in the example our democracy sets for the world by holding elections even in a time of war."

George W. Bush

Detect a little Freudian irony there?!

DiAnne:

Freud knot.

but oh the jung and the reckless,
Otter

Our decent impulse, to recognize the ordeal of our veterans, has been used to obscure the fact that they died, they were crippled, for no good cause other than the power and profit of a few. Veterans Day, instead of an occasion for denouncing war, has become an occasion for bringing out the flags, the uniforms, the martial music, the patriotic speeches reeking with hypocrisy. Those who name holidays, playing on our genuine feeling for veterans, have turned a day that celebrated the end of a horror into a day to honor militarism.

As a combat veteran myself, of a "good war," against fascism, I do not want the recognition of my service to be used as a glorification of war. At the end of that war, in which 50 million died, the people of the world should have shouted "Enough!"

Howard Zinn

Otter:

As Freud wrote to Einstein:

How long have we to wait before the rest of men turn pacifist? Impossible to say, and yet perhaps our hope that these two factors--man's cultural disposition and a well-founded dread of the form that future wars will take--may serve to put an end to war in the near future, is not chimerical. But by what ways or byways this will come about, we cannot guess. Meanwhile we may rest on the assurance that whatever makes for cultural development is working also against war.

http://www.cis.vt.edu/modernworld/d/Einstein.html

John McCain parked the Straight Talk
Express in the Brown Nose Garage.

If that works for you, feel free to pass it on.

Mark Barrett

http://www.thepremise.com

Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 09:03 PM

________________________________________________________________________

I read the article and happened to see John McCain on MTP this A.M. I was struck by his response to Tim Russert's question regarding McCain's slap down of John Kerry. Even Russert was trying to help him by prefacing the question by stating that nearly everyone agreed Senator Kerry meant no disrespect for the troops. However, one thing McCain certainly learned from Bushco is never, never, never, admit you made a mistake. He still believes that we need to send in more troops to Iraq! The guy is going to get his ass handed to him if he runs. His time has come and gone. Americans can see through his sanctimonious self serving blabber.

Pelosi backs Murtha
By: John Amato on Sunday, November 12th, 2006 at 5:52 PM - PST
Roll Call:

Speaker-in-waiting Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) threw her support behind Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.) for majority leader Sunday, giving a significant boost to Murtha in his race against Rep. Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) “Your strong voice for national security, the war on terror and Iraq provides genuine leadership for our party, and I count on you to continue to lead on these vital issues,” Pelosi wrote Murtha Sunday in a letter obtained by The Hill. “For this and for all you have done for Democrats in the past and especially this last year, I am pleased to support your candidacy for majority leader for the 110th Congress."

His courageous stand against the Iraq war came at a time when nobody was willing to speak out and rocked the GOP.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/12/pelosi-backs-murtha/

"Meanwhile we may rest on the assurance that whatever makes for cultural development is working also against war."
http://www.cis.vt.edu/modernworld/d/Einstein.html
~~Posted by: DiAnne at November 12, 2006 09:29 PM

Interesting comment.

Murtha is also one of the wheelingest and dealingest back-table vote-brokers ever to operate in the House, and his cynical iron-fisted manipulations in the name of quid-pro-quo have cost the Dems a number of key lost-by-one-vote failures in Congress over the past six years. So he is hardly an unalloyed treasure for our side, public anti-war stance or no. That being said, though, I'm damn glad Murtha stood up to the swiftboaters who tried to take him down and got himself re-elected again this year anyway.

it's a yellow dog eat dog world out there,
Otter

The realists take charge in Washington

In fact, if there was a common strand in last week's Democratic victories and Republican defeats, it was the ascendancy of realists. The architects of the Democratic victory, Sen. Charles Schumer and Rep. Rahm Emanuel, had calculated with cold-eyed efficiency which candidates the party would support, regardless of the extent of their orthodoxy.

SNIP

Why? Because the American public proved that it had the maturity to ignore, and in many cases rebel against, the sludge tide of negative ads that was splashed onto the public airwaves, primarily by Republicans.

This election was not only about a disastrous war and the stench of corruption, it was also about a style of politics -- the slashing negative politics practiced by a generation of media consultants in both parties. It was a message to politicians: Stop slinging the manure, and start getting serious about the nation's problems.

http://tinyurl.com/y3o7uf

From the Washington Note

September 7, 2006
The Honorable Condoleezza Rice
Secretary of State
US Department of State
Washington, DC 20520

Dear Secretary Rice:

I write to you with regard to the nomination of John Bolton to be US Representative to the United Nations. Today, the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations was scheduled to have a vote on Mr. Bolton's nomination. The decision on whether to hold that vote is in the Chairman of the Committee's hands. Chairman Lugar decided to hold the vote over to a later date, and I support that decision.

It is no secret that I have serious questions about this Administration's policies in the Middle East. As we tackle enormous problems in the region, most notably with Iran and Iraq, I believe we need to be successful in forging alliances. A critical part of that work is accomplished by our Ambassador to the UN.

One of the key issues with many of our allies is the situation with the Palestinians. I support the creation of a viable, contiguous Palestinian state living side-by-side in peace with its neighbor Israel. I believe progress on this front would be beneficial for the Palestinians, and futher America's, and Israel's security. The President, and you, frequently have spoken in favor of establishing a Palestinian state. On February 26, 2003, President Bush said "Success in Iraq could also begin a new state for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a truly democratic state." On February 22, 2005, the President said "Israel must freeze settlement activity." And on April 14, 2004, the President wrote to then-Prime Minister Sharon, "The United States supports the establishment of a Palestinian state this is viable, contiguous, sovereign, and independent, so that the Palestinian people can build their own future in accordance with the vision I set forth in June 2002 and with the path set forth in the roadmap."
Phase one of that Road Map states clearly that Israel will freeze all settlement activity. Yet, just this week, it is reported that 690 homes will be built in the West Bank settlements of Maale Adumim and Betar Illit. While the official US policy hs been against settlement activity, no credible observer could think that the US could not do more to stop these new actions.

While I am a strong supporter of Israel, and believer her security is non-negotiable, we should have a more balanced approach -- so that both sides can see that we are an honest broker for peace. I have been a long-time critic of the disparity between the rhetoric and the actions of the Administration on the subject of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. However, now I fear that even the rhetoric is going to stop. Is this expansion of settlement activity a signal that holding both sides to their commitments under the Road Map is no longer official US policy?

It is my hope that answers will be forthcoming about our policy toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the Committee can reconvene to debate Ambassador Bolton's confirmation.

Sincerely,

Lincoln Chafee

Now what? Now that our side has a majority in both houses they should actually USE the subpoena power and launch a REAL independent investigation into 9/11.

One thing that struck me as odd in the days after 9/11 was Bush saying "We will not tolerate conspiracy theories [regarding 9/11]". Sure enough there have been some wacky conspiracy theories surrounding the events of that day. The most far-fetched and patently ridiculous one that I've ever heard goes like this: Nineteen hijackers who claimed to be devout Muslims but yet were so un-Muslim as to be getting drunk all the time, doing cocaine and frequenting strip clubs decided to hijack four airliners and fly them into buildings in the northeastern U.S., the area of the country that is the most thick with fighter bases. After leaving a Koran on a barstool at a strip bar after getting shitfaced drunk on the night before, then writing a suicide note/inspirational letter that sounded like it was written by someone with next to no knowledge of Islam, they went to bed and got up the next morning hung over and carried out their devious plan. Nevermind the fact that of the four "pilots" among them there was not a one that could handle a Cessna or a Piper Cub let alone fly a jumbo jet, and the one assigned the most difficult task of all, Hani Hanjour, was so laughably incompetent that he was the worst fake "pilot" of the bunch, with someone who was there when he was attempting to fly a small airplane saying that Hanjour was so clumsy that he was unsure if he had driven a car before. Nevermind the fact that they received very rudimentary flight training at Pensacola Naval Air Station, making them more likely to have been C.I.A. assets than Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. So on to the airports after Mohammed Atta supposedly leaves two rental cars at two impossibly far-removed locations. So they hijack all four airliners and at this time passengers on United 93 start making a bunch of cell phone calls from 35,000 feet in the air to tell people what was going on. Nevermind the fact that cell phones wouldn't work very well above 4,000 feet, and wouldn't work at ALL above 8,000 feet. But the conspiracy theorists won't let that fact get in the way of a good fantasy. That is one of the little things you "aren't supposed to think about". Nevermind that one of the callers called his mom and said his first and last name ("Hi mom, this is Mark Bingham"), more like he was reading from a list than calling his own mom. Anyway, when these airliners each deviated from their flight plan and didn't respond to ground control, NORAD would any other time have followed standard operating procedure (and did NOT have to be told by F.A.A. that there were hijackings because they were watching the same events unfold on their own radar) which means fighter jets would be scrambled from the nearest base where they were available on standby within a few minutes, just like every other time when airliners stray off course. But of course on 9/11 this didn't happen, not even close. Somehow these "hijackers" must have used magical powers to cause NORAD to stand down, as ridiculous as this sounds because total inaction from the most high-tech and professional Air Force in the world would be necessary to carry out their tasks. So on the most important day in its history the Air Force was totally worthless. Then they had to make one of the airliners look like a smaller plane, because unknown to them the Naudet brothers had a videocamera to capture the only known footage of the North Tower crash, and this footage shows something that is not at all like a jumbo jet, but didn't have to bother with the South Tower jet disguising itself because that was the one we were "supposed to see". Anyway, as for the Pentagon they had to have Hani Hanjour fly his airliner like it was a fighter plane, making a high G-force corkscrew turn that no real airliner can do, in making its descent to strike the Pentagon. But these "hijackers" wanted to make sure Rumsfeld survived so they went out of their way to hit the farthest point in the building from where Rumsfeld and the top brass are located. And this worked out rather well for the military personnel in the Pentagon, since the side that was hit was the part that was under renovation at the time with few military personnel present compared to construction workers. Still more fortuitous for the Pentagon, the side that was hit had just before 9/11 been structurally reinforced to prevent a large fire there from spreading elsewhere in the building. Awful nice of them to pick that part to hit, huh? Then the airliner vaporized itself into nothing but tiny unidentifiable pieces most no bigger than a fist, unlike the crash of a real airliner when you will be able to see at least some identifiable parts, like crumpled wings, broken tail section etc. Why, Hani Hanjour the terrible pilot flew that airliner so good that even though he hit the Pentagon on the ground floor the engines didn't even drag the ground!! Imagine that!! Though the airliner vaporized itself on impact it only made a tiny 16 foot hole in the building. Amazing. Meanwhile, though the planes hitting the Twin Towers caused fires small enough for the firefighters to be heard on their radios saying "We just need 2 hoses and we can knock this fire down" attesting to the small size of it, somehow they must have used magical powers from beyond the grave to make this morph into a raging inferno capable of making the steel on all forty-seven main support columns (not to mention the over 100 smaller support columns) soften and buckle, then all fail at once. Hmmm. Then still more magic was used to make the building totally defy physics as well as common sense in having the uppermost floors pass through the remainder of the building as quickly, meaning as effortlessly, as falling through air, a feat that without magic could only be done with explosives. Then exactly 30 minutes later the North Tower collapses in precisely the same freefall physics-defying manner. Incredible. Not to mention the fact that both collapsed at a uniform rate too, not slowing down, which also defies physics because as the uppermost floors crash into and through each successive floor beneath them they would shed more and more energy each time, thus slowing itself down. Common sense tells you this is not possible without either the hijackers' magical powers or explosives. To emphasize their telekinetic prowess, later in the day they made a third building, WTC # 7, collapse also at freefall rate though no plane or any major debris hit it. Amazing guys these magical hijackers. But we know it had to be "Muslim hijackers" the conspiracy theorist will tell you because (now don't laugh) one of their passports was "found" a couple days later near Ground Zero, miraculously "surviving" the fire that we were told incinerated planes, passengers and black boxes, and also "survived" the collapse of the building it was in. When common sense tells you if that were true then they should start making buildings and airliners out of heavy paper and plastic so as to be "indestructable" like that magic passport. The hijackers even used their magical powers to bring at least seven of their number back to life, to appear at american embassies outraged at being blamed for 9/11!! BBC reported on that and it is still online. Nevertheless, they also used magical powers to make the american government look like it was covering something up in the aftermath of this, what with the hasty removal of the steel debris and having it driven to ports in trucks with GPS locators on them, to be shipped overseas to China and India to be melted down. When common sense again tells you that this is paradoxical in that if the steel was so unimportant that they didn't bother saving some for analysis but so important as to require GPS locators on the trucks with one driver losing his job because he stopped to get lunch. Hmmmm. Further making themselves look guilty, the Bush administration steadfastly refused for over a year to allow a commission to investigate 9/11 to even be formed, only agreeing to it on the conditions that they get to dictate its scope, meaning it was based on the false pretense of the "official story" being true with no other alternatives allowed to be considered, handpicked all its members making sure the ones picked had vested interests in the truth remaining buried, and with Bush and Cheney only "testifying" together, only for an hour, behind closed doors, with their attorneys present and with their "testimonies" not being recorded by tape or even written down in notes. Yes, this whole story smacks of the utmost idiocy and fantastic far-fetched lying, but it is amazingly enough what some people believe. Even now, five years later, the provably false fairy tale of the "nineteen hijackers" is heard repeated again and again, and is accepted without question by so many Americans. Which is itself a testament to the innate psychological cowardice of the American sheeple, i mean people, and their abject willingness to believe something, ANYTHING, no matter how ridiculous in order to avoid facing a scary uncomfortable truth. Time to wake up America.

Debunking Popular Mechanics lies:
http://www.lookingglassnews.org/viewstory.php?storyid=6880
someone else debunking Popular Mechanics crap:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm
still more debunking Poopular Mechanics:
http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=5505
and still more debunking of Popular Mechanics:
http://www.reopen911.org/ericreubt.htm

Poopular Mechanics staff replaced just before laughable “debunking” article written:
http://www.reopen911.org/hiddenhand.htm
another neo-con 9/11 hit piece explodes, is retracted:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/180806hitpiece.htm
Professor Steven Jones debunks the N.I.S.T. “report” as well as the F.E.M.A. one and the 9/11 commission "report":
http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/wtc_buildings_collapse_steven_jones.htm
N.I.S.T. scientist interviewed:
http://www.teamliberty.net/id235.html
F.B.I. says no hard evidence linking Osama bin Laden to 9/11 which is why his wanted poster says nothing about 9/11:
http://forum.afghansite.com/index.php?showtopic=9349
Fire Engineering magazine says important questions about the Twin Tower “collapses” still need to be addressed:http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=OnlineArticles&SubSection=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID

Twin Towers’ construction certifiers say they should have easily withstood it:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/121104easilywithstood.htm
USA Today interview with the last man out of the South Tower, pursued by a fireball:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/12/19/usat-escape.htm
Janitor who heard explosions and escaped has testimony ignored by 9/11 whitewash commission:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/ignoring_9-11.html
Janitor starts speaking out about it and his apartment is burglarized, laptop stolen:
http://kurtnimmo.blogspot.com/2005/08/apartment-of-nine-eleven-hero-william_28.html
Firefighters tell of multiple explosions:
http://www.wnbc.com/news/1315651/detail.html
Eyewitnesses tell of explosions:
http://research.amnh.org/users/tyson/essays/TheHorrorTheHorror.html
Interview with another firefighter telling of explosions:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Banaciski_Richard.txt
Firefighter saw “sparkles” (strobe lights on detonators?) before “collapse”:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Fitzpatrick_Tom.txt
Other eyewitnesses talk of seeing/hearing explosions:
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-proof-911-inside-job-witnesses-to.html
Surviving eyewitnesses talk of multiple explosions there:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm
Cutter charge explosions clearly visible:
http://www.rense.com/general63/cutt.htm
The pyroclastic wave (that dust cloud that a second before was concrete) and how it wouldn’t be possible without explosives:
http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/physics/
Detailed description of the demolition of the Twin Towers:
http://gordonssite.tripod.com/id2.html
Freefall rate of “collapses” math:
http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml
More about their freefall rate “collapses”:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/second_wave.htm
Video footage of the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers:
http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video%20archive/
Video footage of the controlled demolition of WTC # 7 building:
http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/videos.html
More of WTC # 7 controlled demolition:
http://www.wtc7.net/
Naudet brothers' video footage of the North Tower crash:
http://www.911blimp.net/vid_Naudet.shtml
Photos of the Pentagon’s lawn (look at these and see if you can tell me with a straight face that a jumbo jet crashed there):
http://www.911blimp.net/cached/HuntTheBoeing!.htm
More photos of this amazing lawn at the Pentagon:
http://cryptogon.com/docs/Introducing%20the%20amazing%20Penta-Lawn%202000!%20(9-11).htm
Very unconvincing fake “Osama” “confession” tape:
http://welfarestate.com/wtc/faketape/
More about the fake “Osama” tape:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape2.html
Fake “Mohammed Atta” “suicide” letter:
http://www.welfarestate.com/wtc/fake-letters.txt
Commercial pilots disagree with “official” 9/11 myth:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/september_11_us_government_accused.htm
More commercial jet pilots say “official” myth is impossible:
http://www.masternewmedia.org/2001/10/31/commercial_jet_pilots_analysis_of_the_twin_tower_attack.htm
Impossibility of cell phone calls from United 93:
http://www.physics911.net/cellphoneflight93.htm
More about the impossible cell phone calls:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO408B.html
Experiment proves cell phone calls were NOT possible from anywhere near the altitude the “official” myth has them at:
http://physics911.ca/org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=9
Fake Barbara Olson phone call:
http://www.vialls.com/lies911/lies.htm
Where the hell was the Air Force?
http://www.welfarestate.com/wtc/af-scramble.txt
More about the Air Force impotence question:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0331-11.htm
Sept. 10th 2001, Pentagon announces it is “missing” $2.3 trillion (now why do you think they picked THAT day to announce it? So it could be buried the next day by 9/11 news):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml
Unocal pipeline-through-Afghanistan plan:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0513/p05s01-wosc.html
Unocal pipeline-through-Afghanistan plan mentioned:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2006/05/19/OutOfAfghanistan
More on Unocal Afghan pipeline:
http://www.newscentralasia.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1031
The attack on Afghanistan was planned in the summer of 2001, months before 9/11:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
Pentagon deliberately misled 9/11 Commission:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=EGG20060802&articleId=2887
Evidence destruction by authorities and cover-up:
http://www.flcv.com/coverup.html/
9/11 whitewash Commission and NORAD day:
http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/071204_final_fraud.shtml
The incredible fish tales of the 9/11 Commission examined:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=%20GR20051213&articleId=1478
Jeb Bush declares state of emergency 4 days before 9/11 for Florida, saying it will help respond to terrorism:
http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/news/jebknew.htm
Steel debris removal from Ground Zero, destruction of evidence:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html
Over two hundred incriminating bits of 9/11 evidence shown in the mainstream media:
http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/911smokingguns.html
Tracking the “hijackers”:
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
“Hijacker” patsies:
http://911review.org/Wiki/HijackersPatsies.shtml
“Hijackers” receiving flight training at Pensacola Naval Air Station:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00085.htm
Several accused "hijackers" still alive and well, wondering why they are accused:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm
Yet the F.B.I. insists that the people it claims were the "hijackers" really were the "hijackers":
http://www.prisonplanet.com/fbi_denies_mix_up_of_911_terrorists.htm
No Arabs on Flight 77:
http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
Thirty experts say “official” 9/11 myth impossible:
http://911fraud.blogspot.com/2005/06/us-governments-offical-911-story-is.html
“Al Qaeda” website tracks back to Maryland:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/alqmaryland.html
Al Qaeda videos uploaded from U.S. government website:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2004/140704governmentwebsite.htm
Operation: Northwoods, a plan for a false-flag “terror” attack to be blamed on Castro to use it as a pretext for America to invade Cuba, thankfully not approved by Kennedy back in 1962 but was approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and sent to his desk:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_terror_plan_cuba_invasion_pretext.html