Of Duty, Death, and Dollars

I hate that question. It's something that sounds like it SHOULD have meaning, yet has become so irrelevant.

Americans ARE dying over there, and even if its not in "vain", the cause is not the one we were sending them over for. The cause wouldn't be an issue if they weren't over there to begin with.

So there's two days left in my blogging contest, can you guys help me get some more reads?

http://www.progressiveu.org/034730-quiet-warfare-why-are-we-so-silent-on-anti-abortion-terrorism

http://www.progressiveu.org/152258-ever-heard-of-the-future-of-iraq-project-yet-another-group-of-knowlegable-people-ignored-prior-to-invasion

http://www.progressiveu.org/blog/nolies32fouettes

not too thrilled with the recent posts... have just been trying to post on what i see getting hits, not on what really needs to be written. Oh well, every little bit helps!
THanks!

Since there was no valid reason to invade Iraq, DimWit didn't even have the authority to do so, the invasion itself was a war crime, US military personnel are fighting and dying in vain for lies and oil corporations - in Iraq, as well as now in Afghanistan (where they have oil pipelines).

I don't much give a rat's patoot about the mercenaries; they're there for the money (and fragile egos, trying to prove their manliness). They know the risks, and if they're willing to die for money and oil wells, so be it. Their problem.

I do, however, care very much about the US military personnel and the civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan. No one's caught OBL, no one is even searching for him now. There's no longer any valid reason for US military personnel to be in either country.

I knew about the lies DimWit was telling about Iraq in the first place. He's too easy to read, his body language has always screamed 'lying!' to me, so I've always known anyone who has died in Iraq because of the US invasion has died in vain.

Not pretty to admit, but the last time there was a war for a "valid" reason was WWII. I look past the flag-waving and bandwagon patriotism to the real "reasons" for these stupid wars. Every person who has died in any war since then has died in vain.

What a waste of perfectly good lives!

Stephen Cambone, "Rumsfeld's Enforcer," to Resign
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206X.shtml
Stephen Cambone, the US Defense Department's top intelligence official and a person known as the "henchman" to outgoing defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, will resign on December 31, the Pentagon said on Friday. Cambone is widely regarded as one of the architects of post-war Iraq planning, which has proved to be disastrous.

Pentagon Seeks Huge Cash Infusion to Continue Funding Wars
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206Y.shtml
The Pentagon is seeking at least $100 billion to continue paying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the agency has been using these funds on the broader fight against terrorism, which critics say could be interpreted to cover almost anything.

Widespread Corruption in Iraq Costs Taxpayers $4 Billion a Year
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206Z.shtml
The Iraqi government is in danger of being brought down by the wholesale smuggling of the nation's oil and other forms of corruption that together represent a "second insurgency", according to a senior US official. Stuart Bowen, who has been in charge of auditing Iraq's faltering reconstruction since 2004, said corruption had reached such levels that it threatened the survival of the state.

Nonny:

Cambone has seen the writing on the wall, and it's called:

C-O-N-G-R-E-S-S-I-O-N-A-L I-N-V-E-S-T-I-G-A-T-I-V-E H-E-A-R-I-N-G-S

I posted a comment about this subject on another site. I have a true dilemma about this. Just as the author of this thread states, there is a cognitive dissonance to this question. With a B.S in psychology, I am all too familiar with that term. But cognitive dissonance minimizes what has happened to this country due to a military action based on lies. We have a social and cultural dissonance in America.

I do not believe lives were lost in vain when those lives were given in support of a cause for which the person truly believed. In an all volunteer armed forces, the members join for many reasons, not necessarily one of pure patriotism and love for their fellow human being. Yet, those reasons are personal and I have no right to demand that an individual's motivations agree with what I feel is important. The soldiers who lost their lives did so fully knowing that they might have to pay the ultimate sacrifice for pursuing a career in the military. They gave their lives in accordance with the rules of the military and in support of their fellow soldiers. When one measures their dedication as a statement of devotion to the military and what the military means for this country, then surely their lives were not given in vain (John Kerry said nearly as much in his interview with Larry King).

However, the mission for which Americans have lost their lives is one of pure folly and hubris. The mission is pointless, but the lives lost were not. So, I have to conclude that despite the honor and bravery of the military who gave the ultimate sacrifice, their lives were taken for a military plan that was absolutely pointless.

Therein lies a dissonance of profound proportion which causes us a people to lash out at one another as we deal with the conflict within ourselves.

But, is it a valid question to ask if lives were lost in vain? I read a very thoughtful post arguing that the question is "..... a cynical political ploy to ask that question as a way of influencing people to keep supporting a war, and when anyone who values service knows the answer is that it is never "in vain" when a soldier loses his or her life serving their country honorably." The person that wrote that comment suggested that when a question about a life being lost in vain, the respondent should for all practical purposes throw the question back at the interviewer that asks the question as a mean and insulting question.

http://blog.johnkerry.com/2006/11/talking_to_larry.html

I got this:

Widespread Corruption in Iraq Costs Taxpayers $4 Billion a Year
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206Z.shtml
The Iraqi government is in danger of being brought down by the wholesale smuggling of the nation's oil and other forms of corruption that together represent a "second insurgency", according to a senior US official. Stuart Bowen, who has been in charge of auditing Iraq's faltering reconstruction since 2004, said corruption had reached such levels that it threatened the survival of the state

Then this:

.FOCUS | Pentagon Seeks Huge Cash Infusion to Continue Funding Wars
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206Y.shtml
The Pentagon is seeking at least $100 billion to continue paying for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But the agency has been using these funds on the broader fight against terrorism, which critics say could be interpreted to cover almost anything

Um... see "Posted by: NonnyO at December 2, 2006 05:30 PM"

Bush may end drilling ban in Alaskan bay
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061203/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bristol_bay

President Bush is deciding whether to lift a ban on oil and gas drilling in federal waters off Alaska's Bristol Bay, home to endangered whales and sea lions and the world's largest sockeye salmon run.

Leasing in a portion of the area rich in oil and natural gas ended nearly two decades ago — while Bush's father was president — in the outcry after the Exxon Valdez oil spill in 1989.

But with natural gas prices higher, the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service proposed reopening up the North Aleutian Basin. That includes Bristol Bay and part of southeastern Bering Sea...

Rumsfeld Memo on Iraq Proposed ‘Major’ Change
NYT link: http://tinyurl.com/y4a92u

Two days before he resigned as defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld submitted a classified memo to the White House that acknowledged that the Bush administration’s strategy in Iraq was not working and called for a major course correction.
~snip~
Nor did Mr. Rumsfeld seem confident that the administration would readily develop an effective alternative. To limit the political fallout from shifting course, he suggested the administration consider a campaign to lower public expectations...

Text of the Memo
NYT link: http://tinyurl.com/yalfsd

Posted by: aimzzz at December 2, 2006 10:03 PM

OMG we had 110 bases in Iraq?

Posted by: aimzzz at December 2, 2006 10:03 PM

"Clearly, what U.S. forces are currently doing in Iraq is not working well enough or fast enough."

Yep, go ahead and blame the troops you S.O.B

Or they blame the Iraqi people if not the troops .. we invaded but they are too slow in taking over, don't appreciate us etc etc

(I want this computer)

Being an outsider, I can't say whether American military lives have been lost in vain - I bring different schema from all of you to that question. Those who join the military, know that's what will very likely happen at some point in their career. The blind-deaf-dumb-obedience-culture of all armed forces is way beyond honourable when the orders are obscene. That's a major problem which needs to be addressed. Immediately.

This morning I spent hours sobbing - trying to read a true account of orphaned, disabled, emotionally bankrupt, living-dead children neglected and abandoned by parents, by overseas military fathers, discarded onto the rat-infested scrapheaps of what was once their loved homeland poisoned by chemicals rained down upon the lush green earth and the clean, fresh waterways to contaminate the seeds of the parents and grandparents and great grandparents spanning more than half a century and on into an indefinite future.

American lives lost? American military lives lost? Forgive me for being hard-hearted. American adults who are there and die - well - unfortunate. Hell, any adult, from anywhere who is there and dies - bad luck.

But the children? Stop and imagine if you will how many countries would have had the crap bombed out of them by now if Beslan was in your neighbourhood - your local primary school. 9/11 - it was dreadful - it was an appalling affront, but in the wide scheme of things that have been done in the name of the victims of 9/11 and their families, I say ENOUGH!!

How many more damaged children will America discard as "COLLATERAL DAMAGE" of war. Now - those are the lives that have been taken in vain. The children. The families. The people who have never held a gun in their lives.

The lives that have been truly destroyed by torture - those are the lives taken "in vain". The armed forces personnel who have returned to America still living, but damaged and never able to be "restored to life" - those are the lives given "in vain".

COLLATERAL DAMAGE? Totally unacceptable. Totally "in vain".

What I would like to see - as a prerequisite for any country declaring war on another - is for the decision-makers and their children to go first - and die or be tortured or be sent back as a empty shells. And then the next-in-command and their off-spring. The privates - the young ones - they go last. Both gulf wars would never have happened - it's so easy to be brave with other people's children.

Yes, there are lives lost in vain in all wars. For the so-called intelligent beings of the planet, how damned moronic have we proven ourselves to be?

The answer to the question of whether or not a serviceman (or woman) who dies in the Iraq war dies in vain is a subjective one of course.

I recently had a young man full of Semper Fi (it is his identity) ask me after returning from his second tour of duty in infantry combat as a Marine in Iraq, "Did we fight in vain? Did they die in vain?" My answer was, after some thought, "No. It is a noble endeavor to enlist to serve to protect and defend one's country. No matter where the leaders send you. This must never be seen as futile, or in vain."

The responsibility of whether or not those people died in vain rests on the shoulders of those that sent them.

If the cause they were sent there for turned out to be false (to destroy weapons of mass destruction), if they were misled and not given adequate protective gear, or adequate troop strength to be swift and sure in their endeavor, it is through fault of the leadership. Our leadership. Starting with the CIC. And it is WE who should be held accountable I believe if we leave those responsible to wrap the stench of their lies on their blood drenched hands in this country's flag silently and slyly.

Don't want them to have died in vain? Speak up. Speak out.

I believe we MUST hold them accountable or the blood is on our hands. We the people.

Then we pray that our precious resource of our nation's flesh and blood is not ever spilled in vain again.

If we want the responsibility of leadership of this great country to rest on we the people then we the people must take the responsibility to hold those who abused the trust of our service men and women and their families responsible.

The buck won't stop at the neocons. It won't stop with this administration. It has to stop with we the people.

Cindy Sheehan knows.

Look at these faces.

http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/

Join them please!

TSP...you've got mail. (maybe?)

"..... a cynical political ploy to ask that question as a way of influencing people to keep supporting a war, and when anyone who values service knows the answer is that it is never "in vain" when a soldier loses his or her life serving their country honorably."
Posted by: oncall at December 2, 2006 06:34 PM

If the military personnel don't know why they're fighting and/or dying, they don't have an IQ high enough to be in the military (in theory). In the run-up to this illogical, unconstitutional, illegal war in Iraq, there was still enough info in Lamestream Media (when they were magnanimous enough to present the 'he said - he said' sides) to make it clear to anyone with an IQ above a rock and not drinking kool-aid that there was not a good reason for the invasion of Iraq. It's why, I'm sure, young people of military age were not lining up at recruiting offices to enlist in droves, like after Pearl Harbor. I suspect most young people, even if they're keeping rather quiet, are smart enough to figure out lies and oil are not worth dying for.

There's honorably serving in peace.

There's honorable service in a "just" war (e.g. WWII). Totally different concept from today's war.

Then, there's Herr Boosh's war.... Don't forget, although we're not hearing about it except for occasionally via foreign presses, occasionally via Lamestream Media pundits who question conscientious objectors with a sneer in their voices, there are soldiers who are going AWOL, and some perfectly honorable military personnel are even in jail and being tried because they object to this particular war - not honorable wars otherwise, just this particular war which is illegal, unconstitutional, unjust, immoral, unethical, and dishonorable, and they know it. I consider them to be heroes for being honorable service members who question this particular war that was based on lies.

If a military person is going to fight and potentially die while serving this country, at least they deserve to be told the truth about why they may die, the right to question the reasons why they might die, and it should be mandatory that all military personnel know whether or not the war is honorable or not. We all know this particular war is NOT honorable, that it was based entirely on lies, and that the military personnel who are serving honorably will forever be tainted by the soldiers and the mercenaries who are performing torture in their names, as well as ours, as well as illegally detaining innocent people in prison camps. There is no honor in being guilty by association. There is no honor in killing other people for the sake of lies and oil. They have to know that, too. They deserve to know the truth, no less than we deserve to know the truth.

When one peels back the layers of onions, tears rolling all the while, one gets to the inner core... and that can make one cry, too.

Oh, and PS... I write that knowing my youngest nephew is in Afghanistan... and it would be FAR more honorable if he and the other members of his guard unit were home where they belong. My nephew's sons were young enough when he left that they will not remember who he is when he gets back in four months. He is a good daddy, and his children deserve to have a father at home where he belongs.

Gov't Oversight Chief Wants to Limit Internal Fraud Probes
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206B.shtml
The new chief of the US General Services Administration is trying to limit the ability of the agency's inspector general to audit contracts for fraud or waste and has said oversight efforts are intimidating the workforce, according to government documents and interviews.

Boeing: Accused of Running Torture Travel Agency
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120206C.shtml
Since 2003, human-rights investigators and news media reports have described a Boeing Business Jet as one of the most-dreaded planes in the Central Intelligence Agency's clandestine air force. The modified 737 - a model rolled out in Renton in 2001 - was built for executive fun and comfort. But it is alleged to be the flagship of the CIA's "extreme rendition" squadron, ferrying suspected terrorists to secret agency prisons or countries where the US is said to outsource torture.

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sfile=nq061201&vts=12220061846

Non Sequitur

This cartoon reminds me of our Congress Critters. People tell them stuff (in box), they do nothing (out box), and they sit in the middle and absolve themselves from responsible decisions. Dems were given a majority for the last election (allegedly a mandate against dictator Georgie's war), yet there's nothing in the 'out' basket. Pelosi's first hundred hours (or whatever) notwithstanding, I don't think anything will be done by the next Congress either. They're still stuck in doing-Georgie's-bidding mode, and doing-oil-pharmaceutical-medical-war-profiteering corporate bidding mode. They also will not force Boy Georgie to get the US military out of Iraq or Afghanistan, and they will keep wasting money down the black hole of funding Georgie's war (numbers conveniently not figured in the national debt because it's all paid with "emergency funding" legislation). As long as impeachment proceedings are off the table, and as long as Herr Boosh and his co-criminals are exempt from being tried for war crimes associated with torture and the illegal invasion of Iraq, the criminals in charge of this nation will get off scot-free and two years from now we'll still be wondering why they weren't tossed out on their ears as long as there has been a Dem majority in both houses of Congress, 'cuz we elected them to get the troops home and stop this stupid war ASAP. Georgie has already said as long as he's the presidunce, the US military will be in Iraq. No one in the US will stop Herr Boosh. I wonder if other nations will form alliances and stop him since our Congress Critters are obviously so unwilling and/or unable to stop the criminals running this country...??? I really, really, really want to know WHY they are unwilling and/or unable to stop Georgie...??? (Bottom line, core-of-the-onion reasons, not that fluffy-feel-good bandwagon patriotic nonsense they keep throwing at us....)

I wonder how many thousands of lives will be lost before that unconstitutional, illegal, unethical, immoral, and dishonorable war is done?

I am not one to judge a warrior's decision to resist fighting. One can agree with them or disagree with them. For it is the individual who places themselve in the predicament of having to make that decision for themselves. Whatever decision they arrive at, I can support them as it is truly their own decision. I can honestly say though that I would support any soldier who refuses to fight in this disaster of our own making.

Where is the honor in fighting and dying for a lie? The honor is with the person who decided to accept that responsibility. Do I agree with it? No, I do not. But it doesn't make their honor any less valid. The shame is with those who perpetrated the lies.

I do agree that we as a society have a responsibility to those warriors (I have learned that the word "soldier" is actually an Army term and does not include Marines) who gave life and limb for a cause based on deceptions and lies. I absolutely agree that the inncocent victims of war are those whose lives were lost in vain.

They have only died in vain if their deaths have not caused us to value their lives as much as they value our country.

Or if we cannot ensure for them that the Constitution, which they swore to protect and defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic, still governs and protects our freedoms.

And in the words of another far more eloquent than I:

"The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

Suz,

You've got mail.

If you do not want our soldiers to have died in vain....

Then IMPEACH george w. bush and show the world it was not for nothing.

It is the only 'victory' left to be won.

Great thread, Otter.

Posted by: oncall at December 2, 2006 06:34 PM

I agree, Oncall, that it is not really a valid question whether or not the soldiers have died in vain. It automatically sets up the debate that is keeping us there. The question should be, and I think we all know the answer to this:

Have the soldiers and civilians died for a lie, or at least for a failed plan, and is that a waste of American lives?

Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at December 2, 2006 11:16 PM

I agree, TSP - the wight of the lost soldiers lies with the failures and leadership. We must demand an end to this. We started that on Nov. 7, and we do it here regularly, but the voices need to be louder still.

As a person born the last year of Vietnam, would you like to know why I think generations before me are still so ashamed of speaking of Vietnam..?

It is because all of us know for a fact our soldiers died FOR NOTHING.

As those lies piled up we killed 3 MILLION south east Asians. For nothing.

BUT, the thing that shames us most is this...

Knowing those responsible for lying us into so many deaths were allowed to simply WALK AWAY.

Of all the shameful acts we have encouraged or bore witness too, we LET THEM use our soldiers for mass murder.

We LET THEM sacrifice them for no real damn reason at all. And then we LET THEM get away with it.

Sometimes I wonder if there had been a War Crimes tribunal here, that could have effectively brought closure to the Vietnam War in our own society, I would have grown up in a much different country.

Our soldiers are sacrificing themselves now for the same reason they always do, so that we here can find a better way.

It is the greatest shame of our people that we LET THEM be used and killed.

Impeach georgie, and those shameful days will be over, maybe even forever.

"Three rousing rahs and a few huzzahs and a hip, hip, hip hooray! What's good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA".

-song from the musical "L'il Abner"

And it was ever thus. Do they die in VAIN?

From dictionary.com:

–adjective, -er, -est. 1. excessively proud of or concerned about one's own appearance, qualities, achievements, etc.; conceited: a vain dandy.
2. proceeding from or showing personal vanity: vain remarks.
3. ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile: a vain effort.
4. without real significance, value, or importance; baseless or worthless: vain pageantry; vain display.
5. Archaic. senseless or foolish.
—Idiom6. in vain, a. without effect or avail; to no purpose: to apologize in vain.
b. in an improper or irreverent manner: to take God's name in vain.

So there appear to be at least two conceptually different meanings for the word *vain*. Which sense of the word are we dealing with here?

I would say that the women and children, and the elderly in Iraq and Afghanistan have died in vain in both senses of the word. They died because of our vanity and our stupidity.

The soldiers? Certainly they died for vanity, for capitalism, for oil, for a cause that was false, and they were manipulated and lied to. However, if any of those young men or women set any one of us on the path to peace activism, they did not die in vain and their efforts were not in vain. Sometimes it takes the horror of truth kicking us in the head that leads to change.

We have opportunity for change right now. We have a new Congress coming in; the media is, at least, waking up to the evil they have been promoting for four years. And we are here, and we KNOW. Now we must ACT.

Well it seems to me the whole thing would end if it wasn't ok for there to exist such social and economic stratification at every level. It violates every religion and logic also.

I'm sure we would join in, with Iran in the mix, break the banks and and the budget, sink the global economy, millions more dead, & terror risk every where.

RESIST!!

Israel's Defense Forces Warn of Pending Mideast War
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120306Z.shtml
Haaretz reports that there will be a war next summer. The atmosphere in the Israel Defense Forces in the past month has been very pessimistic. The latest rounds in the campaigns on both fronts, Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, have left too many issues undecided, too many potential detonators that could cause a new conflagration. The army's conclusion from this is that a war in the near future is a reasonable possibility. As Amir Oren reported in Haaretz several weeks ago, the IDF's operative assumption is that during the coming summer months, a war
will break out against Hezbollah and perhaps against Syria as well.

Anyone with some extra time today is welcome to help make calls into the 23rd Congressional District in Texas where early voting starts tomorrow for Ciro Rodriguez.

The link is:

http://ciro.onlinephonebanking.com/opencallv2/callproc.php

Breyer: Court should aid minority rights
yahoo/AP link: http://tinyurl.com/y4qjdp

Justice Stephen G. Breyer says the Supreme Court must promote the political rights of minorities and look beyond the Constitution's text when necessary to ensure that "no one gets too powerful."...

Posted by: aimzzz at December 3, 2006 02:22 PM

I bet that goes over big with Alito, Roberts, Scalia and Thomas at the Supremes holiday party.

Just because:
Southern Discomfort: Kris Kristofferson on Iraq, Bob Dylan, Johnny Cash, and life as a red state outlaw
By Peter Hyman
http://www.radaronline.com/features/2006/10/post_2.php

and:
Full Metal Jackass: The Daily Show's latest recruit on life in the comedy trenches
By Joel Keller
http://www.radaronline.com/features/2006/11/post_3.php

Another tip of the hat to my Dad this evening, working hard on the local issues...

http://tinyurl.com/y6vz4s

(also, Happy 12th to my daughter Toni today)

Family Treat

Wow, that's a really cool article about your dad.

And happy birthday, Toni!

Helen Thomas | Iraq Study Group Won't Rock the Boat
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120306G.shtml
"With Iraq falling apart, it's getting lonely at the top for President Bush. His hawkish neo-con advisers are deserting him. He had to fire Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. The Democrats have won control of Congress. US allies are angry at his Iraq policies. And even Henry Kissinger - one of Bush's foreign policy advisers and a key architect of the Vietnam debacle - has decided Iraq is a can't-win situation," says Helen Thomas.

Frank Rich | Has He Started Talking to the Walls?
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120306A.shtml
"It turns out we've been reading the wrong Bob Woodward book to understand what's going on with President Bush," says Frank Rich. "The text we should be consulting instead is 'The Final Days,' the Woodward-Bernstein account of Richard Nixon talking to the portraits on the White House walls while Watergate demolished his presidency. As Mr. Bush has ricocheted from Vietnam to Latvia to Jordan in recent weeks, we've witnessed the troubling behavior of a president who isn't merely in a state of denial but is completely untethered from reality. It's not that he can't handle the truth about Iraq. He doesn't know what the truth is."

Me, a week ago:

…what’s happening in Iraq is not a civil war. It’s anarchy. And that’s even worse.

Kofi Annan, today:

“When we had the strife in Lebanon and other places, we called that a civil war — this is much worse,” Annan said.

There are times when it’s fun to be ahead of the curve. There’s no fun in this. America doesn’t want to be responsible for what’s going on in Iraq, but we are. And we’re using words to shield ourselves from the pain and remorse and revulsion we feel, while our gutless commander in chief encourages us to do exactly that.

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that you have one. Recognizing that Iraq is in the throes of a civil war only gets us halfway there. Until we recognize the magnitude of the Bush administration’s failure, and the utter chaos on the ground in Iraq, we’re going to keep mincing words and our troops are going to keep getting piecemealed.

– Mark Barrett http://www.thepremise.com

In my mind Calvin Coolidge who led us into the Great Depression might be the only President to be worse than Bush. Nixon, its no contest, at least Nixon did some good while in office:

He's Only Fifth Worst

By Michael Lind
Sunday, December 3, 2006; Page B05

snip
"It's unfair to claim that George W. Bush is the worst president of all time. He's merely the fifth worst. In the White House Hall of Shame, Bush comes behind four other Oval Officers whose policies were even more disastrous: James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Richard M. Nixon and James Madison.

"Doing nothing can be even worse than doing something wrong. Take the worst president of all time, Buchanan. In office when Lincoln's election in 1860 triggered the secession of one Southern state after another, Buchanan sat by as the country crumbled. In his December 1860 message to Congress, three months before Lincoln was inaugurated, he declared that the states had no right to secede, but that the federal government had no right to stop them. By the time he left office, seven states had left the Union, and the Confederates had looted the arsenals in the South. If Buchanan had exercised his powers as commander in chief, the rebels might have been stopped at far less than the eventual cost of the Civil War -- more than half a million American dead and the ruin of the South for generations"

"The third-worst president is Nixon, a criminal in the White House who is still the only commander in chief ever to resign. Many presidents have abused their power, and the "imperial presidency" existed long before Nixon. But he was the only president to run a criminal gang out of the Oval Office engaging in spying and burglary while he sought to corrupt the Justice Department, the FBI and the CIA..

"(By contrast, Bush's misguided authorization of torture, secret CIA prisons and illegal eavesdropping were at least directed at suspected terrorists, not at his personal and political opponents.)"

"The damage Nixon inflicted might have endured had he established the principle that the president is above the law. As he told David Frost in a famous 1977 television interview, "Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal." Because of the exposure of Nixon's criminality during Watergate, we still live in a constitutional republic rather than a banana republic with an elective dictatorship."

"By contrast, George W. Bush has inadvertently destroyed only Baghdad, not Washington, and the costs of the Iraq war in blood and treasure are far less than those of Korea and Vietnam. Yet he will be remembered for the Iraq conflict for generations, long after tax-cut-driven deficits, No Child Left Behind and comprehensive immigration reform are forgotten. The fact that Bush followed the invasion of Afghanistan, which had sheltered al-Qaeda, with the toppling of Saddam Hussein, will puzzle historians for centuries. It is as though, after Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor, FDR had asked Congress to declare war on Argentina."

"Why did Bush do it? Did he really believe that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction? Was it about oil? Israel? Revenge for Hussein's alleged attempt on Bush's father's life? The war will join the sinking of the USS Maine and the grassy knoll among the topics to exercise conspiracy theorists for generations, and the photos of torture at Abu Ghraib will join images of the napalmed Vietnamese girl and executed Filipino rebels in the gallery of U.S. atrocities."

As to Rick's topic at hand: Are Americans dying in vain in Iraq?

My answer is that No American's death in war is ever in vain regardless of how misguided the politician's failed policies. We should cherish and honor every brave soldier who is willing to put their life on the line for our democracy. The failure is not with our soldiers but with each of us who as citizens either stood by silently when we went into Iraq or failed in our efforts to allow our current occupant to take office in 2000 and 2004. I blame myself along with this country for letting down our fine military by putting an incompitent in the Whitehouse to serve as Commander in Chief. War is not only for strategic geopolitical advantage but also serves future generations as a learning experience to teach us when war is truly the last and only option. Their lives, their contributions to this country and this world should be honored as a noble endeavor regardless of the military policy. To claim that their loss was in vain is to say that their being, their existence was a waste which I am not about to even contemplate, even under the direction of the 5th worst President in American History. What will be in vain will the lost opportunities, hopes and dreams of this country during eight years of our lives. Eight years we can never have back. That is truly the tragedy of this generation.

Posted by: DiAnne at December 3, 2006 08:20 PM

Talking with a Republican supporter last week, I was suprised to hear her refer to Iraq as a "disaster". For that is truly what it is - a man made disaster of unfathomable proportions.

Defense Nominee's Business Ties Raise Concerns
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120306Y.shtml
As Robert Gates awaits Senate confirmation as President Bush's secretary of defense, ethics watchdogs worry about the revolving door between government and private business that allowed Gates to align himself with defense contractors, investment houses and a global drilling company involved with Vice President Dick Cheney's former employer, Halliburton Co.

Is President Bush Sane?
Paul Craig Roberts
The president of the United States is so deep into denial that he is no longer among the sane.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15799.htm

My brother, the last real republican, whom has hither forth made one admission of reality up to this point...

'Yes. Ok Christy! I admit, there is a PROBLEM with this administration'.... He changed in that moment.

I let him know 'problem' was not the right word. He didn't like it but he LISTENED. I try not to offend him, but he knows I will fight him over georgie.

He is smarter and stronger than me, but as long as I don't hiss too much he will listen.

The other day he sat through my reasons why we should send bush to the Hague without once telling me it should not, could not, or would not be done. He never disputed any of it.

He did'nt like it, but he managed to sit through it without too much squirming.

All my life I have followed his lead on political matters, but this time he was just WRONG.

I will not tell him that using that word, but I don't have too. He already knows it.

I never thought I would see a president here that would betray so many of us. I don't think he ever thought it could happen either. We are so united AGAINST him, it is downright...eerie.

Once I could pry open my brothers mind for just a moment, it was like watching sunlight flood into a dark, dark place. We can not UNLEARN something.

Thank God I turned him away from the Dark Side in time. I could not have stood the thought of fighting my own brother over george w bush. Even if I was ready too.

Impeaching georgie would heal a rift in this nation that has been hemmorraging since Vietnam. all of us are ready to find out what is going on here.

Only the United States Constitution matters. Even the Last Real Republican said so.

Hey, Christy -- I saw on Jon Stewart the other night that some folks are thinking maybe we should impeach Bush. Did you hear anything about that crazy notion? And if so, what's your take on it?

:::ducking and running:::
Otter

Impeach them ALL.

Let God sort them out.

The ones that will die today can not be saved. Tommorrows victims only have one hope. Only ONE chance.

US.

It is time to not only impeach him but seriously consider arresting him on charges of WAR CRIMES and turning him over to the Hague to be judged.

We can talk the talk...?

By God it is time to walk the walk.

On C-SPAN:
Bush just accepted the resignation of Bolton

The great advantage I had in speaking to my brother is that he lived in Germany for quite some time.

He is VERY familiar with the Geneva Conventions as he was military and he also understands war crimes laws and that we ourselves helped set up the Hague.

It is time to quit listening to the 'stupid Americans' making redundant arguments and reducing conversations to squabbles over talking point semantics..

Time to stop listening to them and give the SMART AMERICANS encouragement to do the right thing.

Tommorrows victims have ONLY ONE chance.

Us, today.

The time is NOW. Carpe Diem.

Lets' make sure this can never ever happen again.

President Bush has accepted the resignation of U.N. Ambassador John Bolton when his recess appointment expires, CNN confirms.

Bolton is jumping ship.

Just like the rat bastard he is.

They KNOW they are about to be caught in very serious WAR CRIMES accusations. They are trying to disappear into history, put time as a buffer between they and him.

It won't work cause we won't LET IT work.

Nail the bastards TO THE WALL!!!!!!!!

I was thinking more along the lines that they can't get Bolton confirmed & Bush can't stand to lose

Bizarre...

Rove is making a foreign policy speech today-- I thought the puppeteers aren't supposed to appear before the public...

speech will be on C-SPAN1 @ 6:45 pm EST

Bush just accepted the resignation of Bolton

Posted by: aimzzz at December 4, 2006 09:31 AM

Thank God.

speech will be on C-SPAN1 @ 6:45 pm EST

Posted by: aimzzz at December 4, 2006 10:21 AM

Thanks for the heads up. I'll head home right after work to make sure I hear it.

I agree with Christy in that I think the powers that be know they could very well be in for a very tough time legally.

"White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said President Bush was 'surprised' when Bolton submitted his letter of resignation on Friday and that the president 'reluctantly accepted' it," reports CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

"Despite the support of a strong bipartisan majority of senators, Ambassador Bolton's confirmation was blocked by a Democrat filibuster, and this is a clear example of the breakdown in the Senate confirmation process," Perino said.

In a statement released by the White Bush, President Bush said he was "deeply disappointed" that some Senators "chose to obstruct" Bolton's confirmation.

"I am deeply disappointed that a handful of United States Senators prevented Ambassador Bolton from receiving the up or down vote he deserved in the Senate," Bush said in the statement. "They chose to obstruct his confirmation, even though he enjoys majority support in the Senate, and even though their tactics will disrupt our diplomatic work at a sensitive and important time."

"This stubborn obstructionism ill serves our country, and discourages men and women of talent from serving their Nation," Bush added.

Bush and Bolton are set to appear together at a press conference scheduled for 3 PM EST.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/AP_Bush_accepts_Boltons_resignation_1204.html

Aimzzz,

True he can't get confirmed, but legally the jig is up for them.

If bush wanted bolton then bush would get bolton for as long as he wants with or without congress cause he is the decider.

I think rummy and now bolton are the beginning of a mutiny.

Only the totally blind can not see We the People are awake and hungry for accountability. The rats are on a burning ship and deciding to take their chances by jumping into shark infested waters.

The only problem is with every defection georgie becomes MORE dangerous, not less.

These men have committed crimes of unimaginable horror and proportions. Getting him confirmed is the LEAST of their problems.

Not only are they trying to flee, but... Boltons defection was totally out of the blue. It seems MUCHO desperate.

Something is happening to them from inside their own ranks.

The theives are falling out, I just wonder what it is about to surface about bolton to make him scramble away like this....?

Again, it seems overly desperate, almost in panic.

"Then, on Friday evening, I learned that two independent sources in the U.S. Mission said that Bolton was ready to leave, write a book, and hit the speaking circuit to blast the Bush Administration for abandoning ultra-conservative foreign policy principles. One can safely assume that this is what Bolton now plans to do."

http://boltonwatch.tpmcafe.com/blog/boltonwatch/2006/dec/04/bolton_resigns

Too late Mr. Bolton. You are already IMPLICATED.

You can not barter with the devil to return your soul. Ask Colin Powell.

No soup for you, soon-to-be-ex-Ambassador Walruts.

Can you spell repudiate, kids?

I knew you could.

Victory = George W. Bush in prison and stripped of power for any or all of the murders he has caused upon this earth.

Locked away as surely as we would a rabid animal.

The Plan = Accept nothing less than VICTORY!!!!!!!!!

Wow I just read "I Feel Good," by James Brown.

Some very interesting history of the 60s and 70s, comments on racism and the way this country works, just really a lot to think about and from someone who saw the bottom, the top, went to school only til age 10, went all over the world.

Locked away as surely as we would a rabid animal.

Posted by: Christy at December 4, 2006 01:43 PM

Perhaps he could share a room with his mate in Iraq - whatshisname - Sad-dam.

This is a whole lot of deja vu - I was reading about Megar Evars, Martin Luther King, Sharpton, Muhammed Ali, RFK, Hubert Humphrey, LBJ, Nixon - for most of the morning - while waiting to find out how much I'd been ripped off by a plumber.

The deja vu has to do with the natives being restless

http://www.freewayblogger.com/impeachment_project2.htm

Following are those who accused Democrats CUT and RUN, are the one who RUN before newly Congress convene in January 4th.

* Rumsfeld quit one day after election.
* Bolton quit before Democrats grill him in the next Congress.


I love to see more "surprise" in coming days !

Ben Doko

John Kerry on Ambassador Bolton’s Resignation

“Like Secretary Rumsfeld’s departure, Ambassador Bolton’s resignation offers a chance to turn the page at a critical period. With the Middle East on the verge of chaos and the nuclear threats from Iran and North Korea increasing, we need a United Nations ambassador who has the full support of Congress and can help rally the international community to tackle the serious threats we face. This is an opportunity for the President to appoint a United Nations ambassador who enjoys the support necessary to unite our country and the world and who can put results ahead of ideology. There are many qualified candidates from across the political spectrum with the respect and experience necessary to be effective in this crucial post. The President should act quickly to nominate a United Nations Ambassador who can be confirmed with broad bipartisan support.”

from Huffington Post:

Excerpted From David Kuo's Blog:

...So the Bible is America's holiest book? Was there a vote? Did Oprah decide? Was it Jefferson? And if so was it his version of the Bible? Does that mean it is true of every American citizen? Even Kevin Federline? And if it is true then America, with its indifference to the poor and lust for money and power, would be seriously backsliding and in need of spiritual counseling.

No, the BIble isn't Ameirca' holiest book. America doesn't have a holy book. It does have two holy documents, however. One is called the Constitution. The other is known as the Declaration of Independence. That's it. Book study finished...

Earlier this year Jamie Raskin, a professor of law at American University, was requested to testify at a hearing on the proposed Constitutional Amendment to prohibit gay marriage.

At the end of Raskin's testimony, a right-wing senator said:

"Mr. Raskin, my Bible says marriage is only between a man and a woman. What do you have to say about that?"

Raskin replied:

"Senator, when you took your oath of office, you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution. You did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible."

and that's the name of that tune booshie,
Otter

A 'fire in the belly'... Oh my.

"And finally there was our Senior Senator, Patrick Leahy. For those who've heard Senator Leahy speak, you know that his delivery can vary quite a bit. It can be easy to tell when he's tired, physically or mentally - so Leahy on the stump doesn't necessarily mean the same thing twice. But Leahy of late has had a fire in his belly, the likes of which we haven't seen in a while. His sadness at the loss of comity and the discarding of basic Constitutional values under the Bush GOP has turned into outrage, and he has been consistently riveting in front of a crowd in recent months.

But since the election, that outrage has turned into inspiration, and it's an inspiration he passed on to the crowd tonight. Like the speakers before him, Leahy was funny, thankful, exuberant... but there was an edge that was very serious. He related a conversation where he was recently asked if President Bush should be "worried" that he was now to be Chair of the powerful Senate Judiciary Committee. The crowd started cheering.

"No, no" he said, calming the crowd, as if to be prepared for a softening of his rhetoric.

"No, he shouldn't be worried. He should be terrified."

And the room exploded."

http://greenmountaindaily.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=704

God, Christy, I love Pat Leahy. When we were in the Senate hearing room, protesting torture and supporting habeus, he was such an island of sanity. Cornyn was making such nasty faces. I think that the thought of Leahy taking over Judiciary and smacking the oily rightwingers down is just...delicious!

monkey--I can see where SOME of the good looks come from!

Happy Birthday to Toni!

And faretheewell to John Bolton, who never understood the concept of diplomacy. Maybe peace has a chance now...

Funky President (It's Gettin' Bad)

James Brown

Yeah, I'm the Godfather (baby)

People, people
We got to get over
Before we go under
People, people
We got to get over
Before we go under

Hey, country
Didn't say what you meant
Just changed
Brand new funky President

Stock market going up
Jobs going down
And ain't no funking
Jobs to be found

Taxes keep going up
I changed from a glass
Now I drink out of a paper cup
It's getting bad

People, people
We got to get over
Before we go under

Listen to me
Let's get together and raise
Let's get together
And get some land

Raise our food like the man
Save our money like the Mob
Put up a fight down on the job

Tell em, Godfather

Turn up your funk motor
Get down and praise the Lord
Get sexy, sexy
Get funky and dance

Love me, baby, love me nice
Don't make it once
Can you make it twice
I like it

People, people
We got to get over
Before we go under
People, people
Well, well, well
Before we go under

Turn on your funk motor
I know it's tough
Turn on your funk motor
Until you get enough

Hey, give yourself a
Chance to come through
Tell yourself, I can
Do what you can do

Hey, listen to the man
I'm the Godfather
Payback, cold-blooded

People, people
People, people
Hey, people, people
Don't you see what's going on

People, people
We got to get together
Get on the good foot
Change it, yeah

Got to get together
And get some land
Raise our food just like the man
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey

I got to say it again
We got to get together
And buy some land
Raise our food just like the man
Save our money, do like the Mob
Put up your fight right on the job

We gotta get over
Before we go under
Time's getting short, Lord

Country, do you know
Just what I meant
We just changed, we got
A brand new funky President

I need to be the Mayor
So I could change
Some things around here
I need to be the Governor
I need to be the Governor

Karen, ,.. Out of pure curiousity, I would like to know which side of the line you fall onto here.

To impeach or not impeach?

What are your thoughts about bush possibly being tried for war crimes?

Iron

Guns,
Long, steel guns,
Pointed from the war ships
In the name of the war god.
Straight, shining, polished guns,
Clambered over with jackies in white blouses,
Glory of tan faces, tousled hair, white teeth,
Laughing lithe jackies in white blouses,
Sitting on the guns singing war songs, war chanties.

Shovels,
Broad, iron shovels,
Scooping out oblong vaults,
Loosening turf and leveling sod.

I ask you
To witness-
The shovel is brother to the gun.

by Carl Sandburg (1916)

I like this one.

The limbs that move, the eyes that see,
these are not entirely me;
Dead men and women helped to shape,
the mold that I do not escape;
The words I speak, the written line, these
are not uniquely mine.
For in my heart and in my will, old
ancestors are warring still,
Celt, Roman, Saxon and all the dead, from
whose rich blood my veins are fed,
In aspect, gesture, voices, tone, flesh of
my flesh, bone of my bone;
In fields they tilled, I plow the sod, I walk
the mountain paths they trod;
Around my daily steps arise - the good,
the bad - those I comprise.

by Richard Rolle c 1300 - 1349, early English Mystic

**Puppeteer takes center stage**
Don't forget Rove's 45 minute speech on:

U.S. Foreign Policy
~~~~~~~~~~~
blurb:
Hillsdale College
Rove, Karl - Deputy Chief of Staff, White House, Policy

Karl Rove speaks at the seventh annual Churchill Dinner held by Hillsdale College.
~~~~~~~~~~~
C-SPAN1 at 6:45 pm EST

If you have the stomach... :p

Rove speaking at the Churchill dinner.

Karl Rove and Winston Churchill.

A deep irony.

A deep irony.
Posted by: V at December 4, 2006 06:20 PM

More like an oxymoron...

Posted by: Otter at December 4, 2006 03:52 PM

Excellent...!

I agree, Christy. I too think the jig is up, but only time will tell.

Posted by: Otter at December 4, 2006 03:52 PM
Posted by: Truth Shall Prevail at December 4, 2006 06:43 PM

I'll second that opinion!

More like an oxymoron...

Posted by: aimzzz at December 4, 2006 06:23 PM

Rush is an OxyMoron.

Irc anyone?

He's a moron, she's a moron, it's a moron, they're all morons, wouldn't you like to be a moron too?

In case you were feeling safer... o_O

Homeland security vs. garage door openers
Government radio frequency also handles 50 million remote control units
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16035362/

What do remote-control garage door openers have to do with national security?

A secretive Air Force facility in Colorado Springs tested a radio frequency this past week that it would use to communicate with first responders in the event of a homeland security threat. But the frequency also controls an estimated 50 million garage door openers, and hundreds of residents in the area found that theirs had suddenly stopped working...

I'm out of the irc now. Maybe all of you can hop in at 7pm pacific time.

Sorry I missed all of you.

Watched Rove on C-Span 1.

Interesting how someone who appears to be so benign can actually be so malignant and lethal.

He said they lost this election because the people at home weren't satisfied that their needs were being listened to and met by some in power. Of course, he was only talking about those members of Congress that got voted out. o-O

Give me a break - paranoid Blair thinks he needs nuke subs everywhere - scared of N Korea, Iran etc

Impeach him too - surely Parliament must have a procedure

Good - Lt Watada will speak W at UW during the afternoon - about how he quit the illegal war - hope he reaches alot of students who are prime cannon fodder

Bush: 'I'm not happy' about Bolton's resignation

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An unhappy President Bush said Monday he regretfully accepted John Bolton's decision to leave his temporary job as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Senate opposition, led mostly by Democrats, doomed Bolton's confirmation to serve permanently.

"I'm not happy about it," Bush said during a farewell appearance at the White House attended by Bolton and his wife, Gretchen.

"I think he deserved to be confirmed. The reason I think he deserved to be confirmed is that I think he did a fabulous job for the country."

Turning to Bolton, Bush said, "We're going to miss you in this administration. You've been a stalwart defender of freedom and peace.

"You've been strong in your advocacy for human rights and human dignity. You've done everything that can be expected for an ambassador."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/12/04/bolton.resigns/index.html

Oh, no, Mr. Bolton!

How Am I Supposed To Live Without You?

song sung blue,
Otter

I thought being "The Decider" meant you were always happy.

Has W decided not to be happy?

Sad Sack

Posted by: monkey at December 4, 2006 11:43 AM

DimWit DARES to call "some" people in the US Congress 'obstructionists' because they disagree with his dictatorial diatribes and disastrous decisions regarding who to pick for appointees?!? The so-called man who has obstructed all sane and common sense truth and rationality and diplomacy with lies and unconstitutional, illegal, unethical, immoral, and dishonorable war - and more lies!?!?

To borrow the esteemed Otter's phrase: *fnord!*

Only the totally blind can not see We the People are awake and hungry for accountability.
Posted by: Christy at December 4, 2006 01:03 PM

Make that "starving for accountability," please.

I want accountability and impeachment and war crimes trials at The Hague so bad I can taste the blood droplets....

Those who have died for lies and oil need justice done in their names.

I have just read the dumbest most ill- researched 'thesis' ever. It may be the most assumptive bullshit ever written.

I can not believe they pay people to sit around and think this crap up.

Sorry, but women are dependent on men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=420513&in_page_id=1879&in_page_id=1879&expand=true#StartComments

http://greenmountaindaily.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=704
Posted by: Christy at December 4, 2006 04:10 PM

Dang, but men of wit and good ol' common sense are SUCH a turn-on! :-) And, he's one elected person who has read the Constitution...!

Leahy's two speeches prior to that horror of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 being passed brought me to tears. I liked him before that, but those two speeches were the clincher. I'm now a devoted fan of Patrick Leahy. I wonder if he would ever consider running for president?

That was a good article. Thanks for posting it.

YW Nonny.

And me too, I can taste it.

I am just sitting here trippin on that so called 'thesis'.

Good Lord.

I have seen 12 year old boys with better insight into the minds of women. I still on some levels want to believe that is a joke just to get people talking. Or fighting.

And before any of you guys jump into me.

Yes, I do believe women are 'dependent' on men, but not for ANY of the reasons or mutilated contexts he is trying to pull off in that article.

I also believe men are 'dependent' on women and without us your lives would be a pointless waste.

This dude really does not seem to like or respect women very much. A little fairness would have been nice.

Maybe I should write my own thesis and send it to him.

I will call it...

'The Failure of Man To Evolve and Why Women and Children Will Die For It.'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061205/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/gates_pentagon
Gates to go before Senate committee
WASHINGTON - President Bush said he nominated Robert Gates to be his next secretary of defense to provide a "fresh perspective" on Iraq, but it's not clear how the former CIA chief will influence administration policy on the war.
Gates'confirmation hearing was scheduled Tuesday before the Senate Armed Services Committee, after an early morning send-off from Bush at the White House, with little sign that Democrats, poised to take control of Congress in January, will block his nomination to replace Donald H. Rumsfeld. In fact, key Democrats are eager to switch Pentagon chiefs as quickly as possible.

Congress and the president are awaiting the recommendations on Wednesday of the Iraq Study Group, the bipartisan commission examining new approaches to the war. Until his nomination, Gates was a member of the commission, which is headed by former Secretary of State James A. Baker III and former Rep. Lee Hamilton, D-Ind.

As defense secretary, Gates would have to work with a Democratic-led Congress. Reflecting that reality, Sen. John Warner (news, bio, voting record), chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee for now, said Bush should solicit privately the opinions of Democrats before forging a new strategy on Iraq.

Warner, in remarks prepared for delivery at the hearing, said the president had a "moral obligation" to U.S. troops in Iraq and their families to seek out the views of Democrats as he considers the Iraq Study Group's recommendations along with an internal assessment of U.S. options.

"After the president has had the opportunity to review these important reports, I respectfully recommend that he privately consult with the bipartisan leadership of the new Congress before making his final decisions," Warner said.

{{{More on link. IMHO, Gates is just another left-over from Poppy Bushista's regime and the Iran-Contra days, as is Dickie-Boy - and several others in the current Bushista regime. I don't believe Gates should be approved, but in these last days of the 109th Congress, I don't see how the nomination can be blocked at this point. It would be the smartest thing to do, but this do-nothing Congress hasn't been known for its collectively high IQ; most have dumbed themselves down to DimWit's pointless prattling and pontificating, which shames all of us and makes all of us look as stupid as they are (certain exceptions noted, of course)....}}}

I just got a call from my mans cousin.

He said Barksdale is being 'swarmed' by atleast 30 fighter jets.

Definately our own, flying mid-cieling.

I have lived here for 21 years and I have never seen Barksdale float more than 5 at a time.

AND he says they are not in formation they are 'circling'.

Then the line went dead.

Before it did I told him to watch for bombers and count them if he sees any.

Barksdale is home of the B-52.

He has lived here ALL of his life and says he has never seen anything like it.

Why would 30 or more fighters be in the air at the same time around BAFB...?

Holy crap that don't make any sense.

Christy
Interesting article about men. My life and experience completely contradict the findings of the "evolutionary biologist." I have never feared abandonment and have enjoyed being the primary breadwinner. I know women happy single, single by choice, lesbian, lesbian and single by choice, happily divorced and not looking, with several men etc. It wold curl his hair. He is obviously part of the American Taleban.

I resent the implication women 'fear' abandonment out of a deep rooted sense of vanity.

You would think an evolutionary biologist would understand it is about watching your babies starve to death.

Duh.

Men like him is why women are bitter.

Christy
I notice Barksdale may convert to a combat training facility and destroy a bunch of wetland with animals and birds living on it.

I agree. I think most women care much more about bonding and having a partner who participates. The article was very superficial and sexist and revealing of the evolutionary biologists own fears, I think, of his lack of masculinity or attractiveness, maybe even intelligence. Projection?!

Ray McGovern | A CIA Insider's Take on Gates
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/120506J.shtml
Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990 and Robert Gates's branch chief in the early 1970s writes: "As Iraq goes down the drain, and 'the crazies' accelerate their campaign to bomb Iran, what is more important than a defense secretary from whom Congress can expect truthful testimony? Hold the Gates nomination over to January."

{{{Hmmmm.... Wonder if it would do any good to tune in to C-SPAN and see what Gates has to say at the hearings...? If he's as evasive now as he was at the Iran-Contra hearings, this might get interesting. As McGovern points out, there are commitments that keep Gates from accepting the position until after the first of the year anyway, so the Congress Critters should just relax already, wait until January for the confirmation vote. Always, always, DimWit has rushed his appointees and his questionable 'legislation' through with his dictatorial demand of an up-or-down vote in a bloody hurry, little or no discussion.... In his megalomaniacal zeal, he doesn't 'get' the whole thing about Congress being a 'deliberative' branch of government, they're supposed to discuss things....}}}

Correction, even better...

'evolutionary psychologist'

I just think he is a quack who should not be allowed anywhere near women or young children.

My current live-in girlfriend says that I am not allowed to comment on this thread unless she gets to read it first.

What's up with *that*, huh?

Tell your girlfriend to jump on in then.

The sisterhood is safe only as long as men promise not to bomb it.

Posted by: Otter at December 5, 2006 09:42 AM

Throw another skirt steak on the Barbie, will ya Nancy?

Tough n' Tender

Speak of the devil....

First President Bush sobs while talking of Jeb
Chokes up over Florida governor's ability to handle victory and defeat

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Former President George H.W. Bush broke down in tears as he cited his son, Gov. Jeb Bush, as an example of leadership.

Bush was addressing lawmakers, his son's top administrators, and state workers gathered in the House chamber Monday for the last of the governor's leadership forums.

He said he was proud of how his son handled losing the 1994 governor's race to popular incumbent Democrat Lawton Chiles, and vaguely referred to dirty tricks in the campaign.

'True measure of a man'
"He didn't whine about it. He didn't complain," the former president said before choking up. As he tried to continue, he let out a sob and put a handkerchief to his face. When he spoke again, his words were broken up by pauses as he tried to regain composure.

"A true measure of a man is how you handle victory and how you handle defeat, so in '94 Floridians chose to rehire the governor. They took note of his worthy opponent, who showed with not only words but with actions what decency he had," Bush said before again sobbing.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16053170/

You know,

Tough and tender is exactly right.

It is funny because all good men only share one trait in common.

The ability to show mercy.

Some can only begrudgingly give it, some are capable of infinate mercy. But for whatever reason it is they choose to soften their hearts, that alone is the one thing all of them have in common.

If not for good men, willing to show mercy, not one single female on this earth would have any chance at all.

No matter how smart, or strong, or brave a woman is, she will only succeed if there are men willing to LET HER have that chance.

I have no illusions about the power men hold over women. We only exist at your mercy.

But just think how dull and void your lives would be without us.

The wine would have no flavor, music no meaning.

No flesh you hunt and roast would ever be able to satify your deepest hungers. Beauty would be useless.

Men that have no mercy in them are the greatest danger to all of mankind that we will ever face.

Posted by: Christy at December 5, 2006 09:40 AM

True. He's a pop-psy type of writer who uses emotionally-laden words to get a reaction from his reading audience. (We're all familiar with that tactic.) The guy over-generalizes about human females, likely based on wishful thinking and his own desire to be a know-it-all patriarch.

See also: The Woman That Never Evolved, by Sarah Blaffer-Hrdy. I also read her book The Langurs of Abu in one of my honors classes in college. There's lots of biological evolution behind the pop-theory of female dependence. Many factors need to be taken into consideration....

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/hrdy-mother.html

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/biography/fghij/hrdy_sarah.html

http://www.froes.dds.nl/HRDY.htm

The sisterhood is safe only as long as men promise not to bomb it.
Posted by: Christy at December 5, 2006 09:48 AM

Therein lies the crux of the problem. War as a means of population control.

Why bother to have children if men are going to only start wars about the time the children emerge into adulthood and could get killed in those wars...?

He who controls the bombs controls the fate of the human species (and other species).

The most effective means of 'population control' men could possibly enact...

Is to grant total sexual freedom to women and the right to determine our own breeding choices.

Not one single woman I know wants to have 11 kids by the time they are 30.

But, I am talking about men giving up the most exclusive and intimate 'natural rights' they have over us.

It will never happen until men evolve one more time as a whole.

The way things are now though, I do not believe we, as a race, will get that chance.

Men have determined a path of wholesale slaughter for our entire race. Not even good men seem able to stop it.

I find it odd that men still as a group can not see that all 'social issues' are WOMENS issues and can only be safely sorted out when women get a say in it.

Every time men supposedly 'fix it' people always wind up dying for it.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, that's just the way it is.

Evolve or DIE!

A Little-Lamented Departure

By Michael Hirsh
Newsweek

Dec. 4, 2006 - Perhaps the signature moment of John Bolton’s tenure as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations came last summer, when the No. 2 official at the U.N., Mark Malloch Brown, had the temerity to suggest some helpful hints to Americans. He said that Americans were acting against their own interests when they bashed the world body. Malloch Brown’s message was simple: you can’t depend on the U.N. for so much—using it as a forum for legitimizing action against Iraq, Iran, North Korea and Syria, for ending the war in Lebanon and keeping Syria out of Beirut—while at the same time dismissing it as a useless, corrupt institution. A Briton who has lived most of his adult life in the United States and is one of the most devoted friends Washington has at the U.N. Secretariat, Malloch Brown warned Americans they could “lose” the organization if they continued “the prevailing practice of seeking to use the U.N. almost by stealth as a diplomatic tool while failing to stand up for it against its domestic critics.”

Judging from Bolton’s reaction, you might have thought that Malloch Brown had just insulted the ambassador’s mother. Red-faced and furious, Bolton declared that Malloch Brown, was a mere “international civil servant” who had no right to say such things. “It's just illegitimate," Bolton said. The hardliners in the House of Representatives promptly voted to cut millions from U.S. dues as retribution for Brown's words.

That little-noted exchange offers a lot of insight into the problem of John Bolton, who announced Monday he was stepping down after Democrats made it clear that they would not confirm his recess appointment when they take control of Congress in January.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16042920/site/newsweek/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6208456.stm

US plans permanent base on Moon

Wait a minute...

" the pop-theory of female dependence"

Please explain.

I am still in awe of Otter making obscure mention of an 'informational filtration effect'

I was like 'Wow. There is actually a name for that?'

Ever sit around and wonder if your like the only person on the planet that noticed something wierd... only to later discover there are already arguments in full swing on that very subject?

Then again, there are those other times, when the answer is 'Yeah. Apparently I AM the only one on earth that noticed.'

Days like that will make you muey loco.

Robert Gates, the White House choice to be the next defense secretary, conceded today that the United States is losing the war in Iraq and warned that if that country is not stabilized in the next year or two it could lead to a "regional conflagration." Asked point-blank by Democratic Sen. Carl Levin whether the U.S. is winning in Iraq, Gates replied, "No, sir."

Census Counts 100,000 Contractors in Iraq
Civilian Number, Duties Are Issues

By Renae Merle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 5, 2006; Page D01

There are about 100,000 government contractors operating in Iraq, not counting subcontractors, a total that is approaching the size of the U.S. military force there, according to the military's first census of the growing population of civilians operating in the battlefield.

The survey finding, which includes Americans, Iraqis and third-party nationals hired by companies operating under U.S. government contracts, is significantly higher and wider in scope than the Pentagon's only previous estimate, which said there were 25,000 security contractors in the country.

Continues...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/04/AR2006120401311.html

nutty stuff - the base on the moon, the civilian contractors - makes my head spin

Back to the evolutionary biologist - he made alot of references to women using botox etc to keep superficially attractive, to keep their husbands from straying.

Any aware woman will notice that most men (except certain gay men and metrosexuals) don't take much notice of fashion & body modification that women do - I maintain that most women do it for themselves, for other women, to get attention of more men and to keep their husband or boyfriend or girlfriend, in that order.

There may be a stage where there is competitiveness between women but I think that is soon transcended by a sort of positive narcisissm and artisticness, whereby a woman doesn't want to look like a clone, military or business type.

I think women have alot more freedom when it comes to fashion and color - they can also opt out, which is also a statement of style. It's art. It's something we've been allowed, just as maybe African-Americans have been allowed music and sports. So we excel at decoration - call it superficial. Cooking is included too. Aesthetics.

As for roles of the sexes, the minute we got electricity and ultimately, microchips and so on, the extreme sexual dimorphism the evolutionary biologist talks about and the extreme sex/gender roles predicated on it became obsolete.

The jobs which require physical strength are not the well-paid jobs. The only reason I got ripped off by the plumber yesterday is because men have stuck together and demanded a decent wage for handling shit. Day care workers and nurse aids also handle it but their earnings have been considered secondary so they don't get a decent wage. If they refused to change the diapers, as plumbers would refuse to fix the toilets if not paid well, things would soon change!

Also heard on NPR this morning that 2 percent of the world's population own over 90 percent of the world's assets - mostly in Europe, US and Japan. Not fair either. More exploitation.

Just got polled by Zogby and was happy that he had an extensive section on the Israel/Palestine situation. The questions were worded so as to really encourage reflection. This is one area that has been largely ignored by our government, with disastrous results. I really am starting to believe the situation in the middle east is about oil protection first, ideology second.

I should get a black ribbon that says in neon red, "Support the contractors." (Would people get the irony)?

" the pop-theory of female dependence"
Posted by: Christy at December 5, 2006 10:54 AM

Er... well, actually, I do not remember ever reading that particular phrase, but I take it from the 'pop-psychology' phrase I remember reading (psych without any deep analysis or in-depth explanations that only a psych prof or a professional psychologist would go into), and added the female dependence words from the article.

I don't relate to the dependence thing in any way whatsoever. I don't get it. I don't know how to be dependent, and it's even difficult for me to ask anyone for help, altho I've been forced to do so since I had back surgery. I was married at 19, divorced at 20, never remarried, didn't live with a man after that. Mom always said she wanted me to get married so I could "have a man to take care of me." I didn't get it when I was 18, and I'm now 60, Mom's dead, and I still don't get the concept. To be "taken care of" (to me) means someone else will do the housework, cooking, cleaning, take out the garbage, make sure the car is serviced, can change tires, deal with mechanics and plumbers and assorted things like that, pay the bills, pay the rent, take care of the children - and still hold down a full-time job outside the home. I can kill spiders myself, thank you, but I can't lift heavy objects (so I hire others to do that for me). The only thing a man could do for me is provide a bigger house for me to keep clean for him because men make more money than women most of the time. Meanwhile, if I had to do that, I'd be wondering when I'd find time to be able to pursue my own interests (many interests!) and satisfy my own intellectual curiosity, not keep his bigger house clean, and be a man's chief cook, bottle washer, and laundress. Emotional dependence? I don't get it.

I've been one of the women who has had positions of authority, one of the people others turn to and depend on for help in crisis situations. Those occupations taught me to make instant life-and-death decisions in microseconds, and I can make up my mind almost that quickly in other situations. It's alien for me to have to turn around and ask someone for help now in my elder years. I've always been the head of my own household. I don't know how not to be the head of my own household.

The whole female dependence thing? I don't get it. Alien concept (to me).

NonnyO
The whole female dependence thing? An artifical construct - to keep women down, perpetuated by same types who condone racist stereotypes and xenophobia.

Strange cause to me 'taken care of' in the context of a male female relationship is just the opposite of what you listed.

To me 'taken care of' automatically assumes that I will be the one taking care of the dishes the clothes the floors the frogs the dogs the driveway and can SOMEONE PLEASE take out the damn trash!!!!!

On some levels your expectation seems more male than female. It is an interesting difference in interpretation.

Your life sounds truly fascinating. Indeed you have not lived with the self imposed 'natural restrictions' most of us girls inevitably tend to grasp at.

Me, I have lived on all sides of the debate. I have been single with no kids, head of the household with kids. Living in sin. Married. I have been kept as a mistress and have taken care of a man financially.

I am now considered 'taken care of', but somehow that still requires cooking damn near 7 days a week.

I sometimes think I miss my old life, single, great apartment and job, but then I think nahhh. I only really miss how orderly it was.

Back then my house stayed perfectly, immaculantly clean. Nothing was ever misplaced or lost or crushed unless I wanted it to be. My place stayed perfectly still and quiet. An oasis.

Now I live in a laundry nightmare. It is noisey it is loud, it is messy.

But, as long as I have my man here with me, I think I can tolerate it just a little while longer.

perpetuated by same types who condone racist stereotypes and xenophobia.
Posted by: DiAnne at December 5, 2006 12:21 PM

I can't remember a time when I didn't equate one with another, with women and minorities being the "classes" that are considered "less than" the patriarchal ideal of male head-of-everything.

The overtly testosterone-overloaded types are easy to avoid and ignore. The less-well-known male control freaks are the passive-aggressive types, and they are not as easy to spot on the surface, and their manipulative ways are not always as easy to detect at first. After a while they're even more annoying than the control freaks with too much testosterone.

On some levels your expectation seems more male than female. It is an interesting difference in interpretation.
Posted by: Christy at December 5, 2006 12:24 PM

My early years in positions of authority where I was depended upon to know what to do in crisis situations made me think more like a male than a female in many respects (my sex didn't automatically place me in a position of being dominated by the men I worked with, either; I had to know what I was doing, and since they knew I knew what I was doing, they gave me their respect willingly). I was also the only female among 25 males at that point in time. I learned how to think like a man, in some respects. The difference between working with those males and the males I encountered otherwise was that I was accorded respect for knowing what to do in crisis situations; it was assumed I had asked all the right questions that wouldn't put anyone's lives in danger. They knew they could trust me to tell them where to go and what to expect when they got there so they could handle their end of any crisis. I earned that respect, and learned to expect it, just as they earned my respect and I gave it to them. They were "my guys" because I 'took care of them' as far as their reports and so on were concerned (and sometimes I even brought homemade cookies to the office), but the relationships were entirely professional, and boundaries were never crossed into personal lives. Up until the mid-late 60s, the profession was male-dominated, so I was one of the first women in that state to hold a position of authority, even if it was "only" in the office. I later had to train in men to do only one aspect of my job, which wasn't even part of my official job description from the beginning.

I suspect once a woman has been treated with some measure of equality based on respect for knowing what she's doing, and doing well (even though the pay scale was, at that time, vastly lower for women), it's difficult to even pretend to be a stereotypical little dependent hausfrau (I never got the June Cleaver thing as an example of womanhood, either). At least that's my take on it, only based on my own experience.

Too, going back to early childhood, I was the only student in my grade from second through sixth grade in a two-room schoolhouse before I was transferred to another school in junior high where I suddenly had 50+ classmates. I learned to think for myself from a very early age.

As I said, the whole dependent female thing... I don't get it. I've dated men who thought I was fascinating for my independence and sizzling conversations - at first; I was a novelty in their experience. When I didn't change into a childish, dependent little hausfrau who asked for their opinions on everything from hair styles to how to spend my own money that they wanted me to revert to, the relationships ended. The novelty of a woman who is an independent thinker who can speak her own mind without parroting his opinions wears off fast when a man only wants a women who can be his echo chamber. :-)

To "take care of" a man like he's a dependent child is not in my job description for companionship - I'm a better companion for things like trips to museums, going to the theatre, whatever. Every person, male or female, should (in my humble opinion) be able to fend for himself or herself, sew on their own buttons, cook their own meals (my mother's second husband didn't even know how to cook for himself when she died), be able to survive as a single person before inviting anyone into their lives and expect someone else to be a mother-or-father-surrogate. I only "take care of" children or animals (I'm kind of a magical grandmother-type who does great tea parties, reads books with great expression and neat voices and knows lots of "stuff" - children appreciate that). Adults need to be able to fend for themselves before they are qualified to take care of others. IMHO.

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