What If, What If?

Of all men's miseries the bitterest is this, to know so much and to have control over nothing.
- Herodotus

NMP

"So really only Ohio and Florida matter. "

No I can't agree in theory.

I tend to believe all the states are in play.

The rigging only matters in certain states. But any single state can sway a nation.

"Who is Halliburton's candidate?"

Halliburton no longer cares just as long asthat candidate can be bought.

They are no longer an American company.

Weird... I live in Florida and was born in Ohio.

Gettin' riggy with it.

Even if all 100 of them were Democrats, they would still have to change our entire system. First of all, there are way too many corporate lobbyists. Secondly, we don't have a campaign finance reform system that has worked. Thirdly, there is no proof that our elections aren't being electronically stolen left and right (along with voter intimidation and suppression).

Posted by: not my president at June 20, 2007 08:22 AM

Unfortunately, that's dead on correct.

Moreover, there is no political incentive for the Dems to listen to the Greens and other "fringe" parties, like they would have to do in a coalition government.

For that matter, there has been no political incentive, at the system level, for the Republicans to listen to the right-wing fringe parties either, but a few wise strategists did, and that is one reason why the Republicans have picked up dominance over the past decade or so, swallowing the Constitution, Libertarian, and other voters.

There is also the issue of state-level politics as well. States are classified as "red" and "blue" but that masks regional differences within a state. Los Angeles, Orange County, and San Diego are Republican regions in nominally Democratic California, and has less political voice in state government than the population levels suggest. Democratic Tucson in Republican Arizona suffers similarly.

I had to get up because I was making myself crazy and obviously couldn't sleep. The crows are making the exact pissed off sound that I would make if my vocal tract would allow it.

Posted by: not my president at June 20, 2007 08:13 AM

Thanks, Rick, for elevating this comment to a threader. Definitely thought provoking.

I often ask questions about 9/11, healthcare, and the wars as well. And here's my favorite question: what if we bought one less B-2 bomber and put the money into Amtrak? (We would certainly have less airport/airline woes that way.)

If I suddenly pop into a rant about the Louisiana State Police... Please ignore.

This crap is starting to work on my nerves.

I wish I could slap Robert Charles Brownes right across his face.

The rigging only matters in certain states.

Posted by: Christy at June 20, 2007 10:24 AM

I disagree with that... The rigging can happen anywhere. California came very close.

And since California is really a purple state, both the Dems and the Republicans have every incentive to rig the system. And the Republicans, under Ahnuld-appointed Secretary of State Bruce McPherson, almost did. (He was voted out last fall.)

What if people who worry about when life starts worried as much about preventing things like that creepo in England who was molesting children live on the internet, to requests or pregnant women from getting blown up in war?

Posted by: not my president at June 20, 2007 08:13 AM

What IF people who worry about when life starts DO WORRY about preventing things like that sicko in England who was molesting kids live on the internet? WHAT IF THEY DO?

BECAUSE I KNOW MANY WHO DO worry about it all. And they affect and effect what they can. You have a high conscience and a very compassionate heart.

But for some reason, people think that pro-lifers are creatures that crawl out from under a rock and don't care about anything but themselves. That is not true. I know many people who worry about when life starts who contribute most of their lives to making other's lives better. They serve in soup kitchens, visit the elderly and sick in hospitals and rest homes, take good care of themselves and their families, give money and food and goods to the poor, and earn their money at work by being good stewards and actually working their shifts to earn their wage.

I know many people who worry about when life starts that care so much about others that they have given up most of their material goods to go care for people in impoverished nations, or people in need in our own country.

Nobody knows they do all this because they don't tell everybody about it. They aren't looking for recognition or applause. They don't do it for fame. They do it out of the unconditional love you were talking about on the last thread. They may not be marching in a war protest at the same time you are, so you may not see their good works.

Let's face it. If we all just sit back and worry about all the ills in the world we would go nuts. Activism is cathartic. But logically, each person has first of all a responsibility for himself (so he has something to offer others), then he has a responsibility to affect every person or situation he possibly can. There are money constraints for some of us that don't allow us to travel to marches, but we can and do affect those within our sphere. I'm not being casual here, but there are alot of people suffering in our country and in our own neighborhoods. They are suffering from mental problems, self-esteem issues, and addictions that encompass all the things you listed in your header.

People who worry about when life starts DO CARE about the quality of life for everyone. Maybe some of them don't, and if they don't they are hypocrits or phoneys....but I know plenty who do care, do what they can possibly do to the best of their ability, and the ones with money are able to do even more.

This country has been a victim of generational warfare. It is not by accident that most of America is deeply into debt and have to have everyone in the household work as many hours a week as they can get. It is not by accident that some well meaning people who are doing the best they can are being propagandized and lied to by their government and corruption reigns.

I do my best to affect what I realistically can. I am so tired of hearing about how people who are worried about when life begins don't care about the quality of life for all. THEY DO CARE, but we each must do our part. We all can't be everywhere and do everything. That in no way means that not caring is the biggest issue.

Try getting a real media. Try to elect people who are not deep into corporate pockets. I know you know this too, NMP, but I think people should stop some of the bigotry and bashing of sects of people and religions they know nothing about first hand. I KNOW firsthand, and yes, there are hypocrits and selfish people everywhere, but as a rule that is what we are each trying to correct. We do what we can, and sleep at night.

Yes it can happen anywhere love, but not just everywhere matters if its rigged.

Louisiana for example is rigged every damn election day, but they had to rig Ohio and Florida to swing the electoral votes.

Doesn't that prove Florida and Ohio is what matters? Again no, because what is happening here has the potential to sway the entire nation.

Katrina is still very much at play and if the issue is taken onto a national level, and handled properly, the ramifications of that debate alone can create a landslide on one side or the other.

Rigging it is a matter of where, so that it swings the result. The actual result however can be so overwhelming any rigging will be moot.

What if all the troops came home NOW? That's what Bill Richardson wants to know...

http://www.notroopsleftbehind.com/

TSP
I do respect people like you describe, if they really do think about land mine victims and so on. I do know some people like that, personal friends. They did vote for Bush in 2000 on the basis of some of it but certainly not in 2004. They had to weigh certain things in making their decisions and not even everything can we always comfortably discuss. They are dear friends and I do respect them and it's mutual. One of my new goals is to actually investigate further things I don't know firsthand, as you did when you looked beyond the obvious in 2004. Thanks for your post and I will try to be more thoughtful in the future. I am not going to deny that I see alot of hypocrisy in some who profess to be religious (in several religions) and I do still think that religious sentiment and belief has been very manipulated by politicians, many of whom intend to do little or nothing that they promised.

This has been mentioned before... but Hillary's theme song will be Celine Dion's "You and I"...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/6221438.stm

Honestly, that song makes me want to fly to Canada (it was used before by Air Canada and www.canada.travel), instead of voting for Hillary.

That phone call went better than expected.

I LOVE THE LOUISIANA STATE POLICE!!!

Go Trooper Allen!

HAHAHA.

I have waited most of my damn life for this. I feel like dancing. What an amazing place this life is.

I LOVE YALL.

I am not going to deny that I see alot of hypocrisy in some who profess to be religious (in several religions) and I do still think that religious sentiment and belief has been very manipulated by politicians, many of whom intend to do little or nothing that they promised.

Posted by: not my president at June 20, 2007 12:30 PM

Agreed. Hypocrisy is everywhere, but that doesn't mean that there are some whose intentions are good. The hypocrisy gets to me as much as it does to you. But I have seen alot of sacrifice and caring and compassion, too. Not enough, but that's why I stay in there in the midst to fight the hypocrisy. Most of the hypocritical are insecure and use their religion as a cloak to mask their problems. We in leadership are aware of them and their problems, and are doing what we can to affect change.

One shining example I can think of right now is my cousin, who is a single woman who lives in the Denver area. She is the CEO of a non-profit in the city that works with neglected and abused children. She worked her way through to her master's degree, and is still paying off her student loans. She works very closely with the social services department in her area, and the police. When we went through her facility we saw a lovely room with cozy furniture and toys and a one way mirror. They go after the perverts with a vengeance. I mentioned this once before, but in her city there is a law that if people leave a newborn child at either a police station or fire station within 48 hours of it's birth, there are no questions asked. My cousin Christy, a single woman, adopted a beautiful little baby boy who was left in a tackle box at the fire station in her city eight months ago, the day my mother passed away. He is adorable and very much loved. She has made a commitment to him FOR LIFE.

It isn't all bigotry and better than thou attitudes. We're not all hiding behind a church affiliation. Lots of us put our money and our lives where our mouths are.

I agree with you on the political front. Maybe there is something there that we don't know or don't see. Not everyone is power hungry and greedy and hypocritical. Sometimes I get just as frustrated with the left as I do with the right.

We should find a way to get along or this country is toast.

I feel like dancing.
Posted by: Christy at June 20, 2007 12:32 PM

Under no circumstances will I be posting Leo Sayer lyrics...

Geaux C!

Not a problem Monkey.

All I wound up being able to do is cry anyway. We are closer to the truth than ever.

I am afraid of what I am standing in the path of.

Unbelievable.

I need a drink.

And NMP, I loved most of the questions you asked in your article. What the hell if?

I'm still learning. I don't have the answers to the questions you asked. I can only affect what I can. And, as Monkey's post above shows, therein lies alot of our angst.

Christy,

I hope you will be able to share with us sometime. Sounds like good news. Well deserved.

So I am off to work and done with my rant. Hope you all have a great day and I'll be tuning in later to hear your take on the "news".

N.P.R. - Hillary: A Duty to Mislead?: Politics and Iraq War

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10947954

All Things Considered, June 11, 2007 · Democrats are telling voters that if they are elected, all U.S. troops will be pulled out of Iraq. But as Sen. Hillary Clinton privately told a senor military adviser, she knows there will be some troops there for decades. It's an example of how in some cases, politics can force dishonesty.

ANTI-LIEBERMAN FUNDRAISER:

Wow. In less than 24 hours, thousands of us around the country chipped in more than $280,000 to help anti-war candidates beat Joe Lieberman's pro-war fundraiser. It's amazing.

The fundraiser is tomorrow night, and Joe Lieberman and other Washington elites who support President Bush's endless war in Iraq will get together to defend the Iraq war's supporters—including Maine Senator Susan Collins. While they're dining on expensive dinner in D.C., Collins' challenger Rep. Tom Allen is holding an online town hall meeting on Iraq to talk about why it's so important to end the war. The contrast couldn't be more clear: It's Washington elites vs. us—the anti-war majority.

Lieberman's fundraiser is expected to raise $200,000. But if we all chip in, we can DOUBLE Lieberman's take by tomorrow night—and send a strong message about whose side the country is really on. Can you chip in $25 to help Tom Allen and Iraq vet Rep. Patrick Murphy beat Joe Lieberman and other pro-war Washington elites?

https://pol.moveon.org/give/allenmurphy.html?id=10555-7895107-v5Buvs&t=1

Everyone who attends the fundraiser in D.C. is being asked to raise $3,000 a piece. I know you probably can't chip in $3,000. But that's the magic of MoveOn—together, we can show that the public can outraise elites by pooling our smaller contributions together. Let's double Joe Lieberman today.

Thanks for all you do,

–Eli, Nita, Noah, Tom and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
Wednesday, June 20th, 2007

LINK FOR THE ABOVE:

https://pol.moveon.org/give/allenmurphy.html?id=10555-7895107-v5Buvs&t=1

https://www.pol.moveon.org/give/allenmurphy.html?id=10555-7895107-v5Buvs&t=1

Truth,

I can not comfortably engage in that discussion again, but years ago, way before the confession...

I told yall this crazy story of a murder and a police cover up, and I speculated about what me and my family thought we were looking at.

Can you remember my wild theories?

They are no longer wild, nor a theory.

DHS acknowledges own computer break-ins
More than 800 hacker attacks, virus outbreaks and other problems

By Ted Bridis/AP
June 20, 2007

WASHINGTON - The Homeland Security Department, the lead U.S. agency for fighting cyber threats, suffered more than 800 hacker break-ins, virus outbreaks and other computer security problems over two years, senior officials acknowledged to Congress.

In one instance, hacker tools for stealing passwords and other files were found on two internal Homeland Security computer systems.

The agency’s headquarters sought forensic help from the department’s own Security Operations Center and the U.S. Computer Emergency Readiness Team it operates with Carnegie Mellon University.

In other cases, computer workstations in the Coast Guard and the Transportation Security Administration were infected with malicious software detected trying to communicate with outsiders; laptops were discovered missing; and agency Web sites suffered break-ins.

The chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said such problems undermine the government’s efforts to encourage companies and private organizations to improve cyber security.

“What the department is doing on its own networks speaks so loudly that the message is not getting across,” Thompson said

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19330262/

Posted by: Christy at June 20, 2007 02:37 PM

I remember bits of it, but don't think I was around when you were talking more about it.

I am glad you are getting some answers. Reality is at it's best hard, but can also be comforting when faced with crazies.

I am happy for you and your family.

(Now back to work)

Christy, you just go right on ahead and dance like there's nobody watching.

While you're at it, you can love like you'll never be hurt, sing like there's nobody listening, and live like it's heaven on earth, too.

I'm just sayerin',
Otter

Are you sayerin' to get on thy good foot?

Ralpheh:

As much as I support your cause, we at the dcp are prohibited from fund raising for candidates here.

What if everyone in the world had been born with a conscience?

What if the evil psychopaths are capable of did not exist?

Posted by: Ally McRepuke at June 20, 2007 12:31 PM

I listened to that song out of mild curiosity (even if I can't comprehend why it was even important enough to be commented on). I'm not a Dion fan, so I've only ever heard/seen a few things on TV long ago about her.

Just the song is enough to make me vote for 'anyone but Hillary.' It has a country-western twanginess to it, those horrid high-pitched electric guitars, and it hurt my ears.

Bleeaaacckk.... {shudder}

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2007/06/20/notes062007.DTL&nl=fix
Who Loves Designer Vaginas?
This just in: Science and nature are mocking America's fickle God. Please, no screaming
By Mark Morford

{{{Ally - One of the paragraphs in this article you will definitely appreciate.}}}

It has a country-western twanginess to it...
Posted by: NonnyO at June 20, 2007 04:53 PM

I just hurled...

Kerry Says Bush Stem Cell Veto Hurts Science

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Sen. John Kerry issued the following statement in response to President Bush’s veto of legislation that would expand stem cell research.

--

PS I heard Bush on the radio this morning saying that Americans shouldn't have to use their tax dollars to destroy life, something like that. Does that apply to Iraq as well? Just wondering.

“When this president uses one of his rare vetoes to block one of the most important pieces of legislation of the year, it speaks volumes about his view of science, research and the need to help the millions of people who are suffering from debilitating disease,” Kerry said. “I am so disappointed in this veto, but ultimately not surprised. To add insult to injury, the president today announced an unfunded, symbolic executive order meant to gloss over the real impact of his veto. It’s a false choice and I strongly hope that this Congress will override the veto.”

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/06/20/countdown-federal-officials-rebelling-against-bush-signing-statements/
Countdown: Federal Officials Rebelling Against Bush Signing Statements

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/06/20/say-hello-to-digby/
Say Hello to Digby
{{{Video. You'll love her speech! :-)}}}

Shoot. I put my P.S. in the middle of Kerry's words - sorry. I said that, not Kerry!

William Rivers Pitt | A Time to Reap
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062007A.shtml
William Rivers Pitt writes "There is something happening today in America. With the right kind of ears, you can hear it in the sound of millions of brows slowly furrowing in anger and disgust. It feels like those tense moments just before the eruption of a summer thunderstorm, those moments when the air is electric, the ozone reek of spent lightning fills the world, and you know something very loud is about to happen. What is happening, what can be heard and smelled and sensed all across the land, is the cresting wave of rage, betrayal and fury that is, finally, roaring across the shores of our collective American heart."
{{{Excellent column.}}}

Jim Hightower | Bushites Outsourced Our Government to Their Pals
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062007C.shtml
Jim Hightower writes: "Since the Carter years, Washington has drifted toward more and more outsourcing of public functions to private contractors, but Bush Incorporated has turned that gradual increase into a fullblown, jet-powered rush to privatization. The shadowy and highly lucrative world of government contracting has boomed under George W., rising 86 percent since he's been in office and now totaling nearly $400 billion a year. Get this: There are now more people doing federal jobs under corporate contracts than there are people employed directly by the government. In other words, in today's government, corporate servants outnumber civil servants."
{{{Take your blood pressure pills before reading this.}}}

Michael Winship | George Bush and the First Person Possessive
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062007F.shtml
Michael Winship writes: "Here he is the other day, responding to the aborted attempt in the Senate to legislatively declare 'no confidence' in Attorney General 'Fredo' Gonzales: 'They can try to have their votes of no confidence,' the president said, 'but it's not going to determine - make the determination - who serves in my government.' MY government? Now that's entitlement. And you thought George Bush didn't have a vision for America."

Posted by: NonnyO at June 20, 2007 04:55 PM

Thanks for sharing, Nonny! That's definitely an article to savor.

Michael Winship | George Bush and the First Person Possessive
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/062007F.shtml
Michael Winship writes: "Here he is the other day, responding to the aborted attempt in the Senate to legislatively declare 'no confidence' in Attorney General 'Fredo' Gonzales: 'They can try to have their votes of no confidence,' the president said, 'but it's not going to determine - make the determination - who serves in my government.' MY government? Now that's entitlement. And you thought George Bush didn't have a vision for America."

Posted by: NonnyO at June 20, 2007 05:53 PM'

@@@@@@@@

I continue to call the WHITE HOUSE COMMENT LINE:

202-456-1111

and tell them that Gonzales should resign or be fired....

Ralpheh
I did receive the same MoveOn email and followed through.

AFP: Osama bin Laden may have chartered a plane that carried his family members and Saudi nationals out of the United States after the September 11, 2001 attacks, said FBI documents released Wednesday.

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Bin_Laden_may_have_arranged_family__06202007.html

Ah yes, the culture of corruption redux...

Tomorrow Pres. Bush arrives near where I am staying to raise money for Jeff Sessions. I will be there to greet him.

Meanwhile, tonight I got to meet a dance hero!

http://www.frankiemanning.com/bio.php

The bitter and the sweet!

On the subject of Iran and what's going on with the Adminstration:

I just walked in from the car where I was listening to Teri Gross "Fresh Air" on NPR and the discussion is about those who advocate invading Iran vs those who want to work closely with other countries and impose sanctions etc. It's the neocons vs the pragmatists. http://www.npr.org and "Fresh Air"

Also caught some of Democracy Now and they interviewed the guy who was in "Control Room" - about Al Jazeera. He was a former Marine communications officer who worked more or less as a propagandist. He came to believe it would be useful to let the moderate Arab world know our intensions and USE Al Jazeera vs demonize it. No one listened to him, of course, and he ended up quitting the military and now works for Al Jazeera International, which we don't get in the US.

Even in Israel, BBC International has been replaced on cable by Al Jazeera International. This guy talked about how Fox News actually gave away military secrets on tv (eg. Geraldo Rivera drew out on the sand patterns of the convoys, and another reporter revealed the most vulnerable spot on an Abrams tank).

Quite interesting!

Karen
Greet the President appropriately!! ;)

Christy
I Googled "Bin Laden" the day after 9/11. "Bin Laden Seattle"
There was a "Bin Laden Law Scholarship" at UW and there were some buildings being built downtown by "Bin Laden Construction." Shortly thereafter, the internet was scrubbed of those entries, which I had thought to archive.

Funny how the powers that be can just erase reality like that, so quietly.

In Alines case, if you try to google 'missing people red river parish'...The ONLY one you'll find is Aline and all of those mentions are press reports on her or our family being noisy.

There is no public record of how many unsolved dissappearences and unsolved murders there are in Red River.

I heard of a funny exchange recently between two cops, one not from here and a local Red River officer...

The non local says something to the effect of 'I am looking for this data on all your unsolved murders.'

The local cop says 'We don't have any murders, but we get a lot of killin's.'

I laughed my head off. Yup that sums up the entire problem.

Red River Parish is a blackhole for information that absolutely should be public record.

Ralpheh
I did receive the same MoveOn email and followed through.

Posted by: not my president at June 20, 2007 07:48 PM

@@@@@@@

I have given up (for the most part) on impeachment and have gone into campaign 2008 mode - mostly because everybody else is now in campaign mode (the press, the Congress, the Dem party etc...).

I still would like to see the Dems pass some kind of withdraw date/ deadline for Iraq before the election.

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20070619/cx_nq_uc/nq20070619
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20070620/cx_nq_uc/nq20070620
Non Sequitur

http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20070620/cx_crwiz_uc/crwiz20070620
Wizard of Id
{{{Why are cartoons and TV comics so much more adept at social and political commentary in this country than politicians and bobbleheads? Er... sorry. That was a rhetorical question.}}}

Say Good-bye to Democratic Outcomes
The Reign of Tyrants Is at Hand
Paul Craig Roberts
The Bush regime has concluded that a conventional attack on Iran would do no more than stir up a hornet's nest and release retaliatory actions that the US could not manage. The Bush regime is convinced that only nuclear weapons can bring the mullahs to heel.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17902.htm

Excerpt:
The Bush regime’s plan to attack Iran with nuclear weapons puts General Pace’s departure in a different light. How can President Bush succeed with an order to attack with nuclear weapons when America’s highest ranking military officer says that such an order is “illegal and immoral” and that everyone in the military has an “absolute responsibility” to disobey it?

An alternative explanation for Pace’s departure is that Pace had to go so that malleable toadies can be installed in his place.

Pace’s departure removes a known obstacle to a nuclear attack on Iran, thus advancing that possible course of action. A plan to attack Iran with nuclear weapons might also explain the otherwise inexplicable “National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive” (NSPD-51 AND HSPD-20) that Bush issued on May 9. Bush’s directive allows him to declare a “national emergency” on his authority alone without ratification by Congress. Once Bush declares a national emergency, he can take over all functions of government at every level, as well as private organizations and businesses, and remain in total control until he declares the emergency to be over.

Who among us would trust Bush, or any president, with this power?

What is the necessity of such a sweeping directive subject to no check or ratification?

What catastrophic emergency short of a massive attack on the US with nuclear ICBMs can possibly justify such a directive?

There is no obvious answer to the question. The federal government’s inability to respond to Hurricane Katrina is hard evidence that centralizing power in one office is not the way to deal with catastrophes.

Our Leaders, the Enemy
By Soraya Sepahpour-Ulrich
In line with Adolf Hitler, the neo-cons are delivering bigger lies for a more violent conflict. They are accusing Iran of a nuclear threat in spite of the IAEA inspections to the contrary, further destabilizing Iraq by arming and feeding the frenzy on all sides, and stoking the flames by such incendiary accusations as: Iran is now arming the Taliban.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17901.htm

TSP...thank you for the beautiful post. I am a "pro-lifer" and, with the exception of traveling to distant countries to help, that post pretty much describes our family. Most people actually don't know this about us, because we just don't talk about the good stuff we do for other people. Like most things, talking about it is not enough, ya gotta act. I lurk on this site, write in occasionally, but have been coming less and less b/c it is constantly negative and full of labels and name calling (except Karen is usually very sweet). I have very liberal views on many issues, and very conservative views on many others, but I try to keep an open mind (see...I lurk here!) and wish others would as well, and not take my sincere belief that life does begin at conception as an immediate reason to label me as some unfeeling nutcase.

Congress weighs end to hedge fund tax breaks.

(NYT)
http://tinyurl.com/2438g9

I also believe life starts at conception, and I am still totally pro choice.

To me, the debate about when life begins is a moot point.

"If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere." —Anonymous

U.S. military reports the deaths of 14 troops in Iraq in the last 48 hours, including 5 in a Baghdad roadside bombing Thursday.

Pro-Death

Posted by: Christy at June 21, 2007 08:34 AM

I don't want to get into this debate intensely but your comment jumped out at me. I believe each situation has a multitude of variables to consider, and alot of people are affected. So each situation is different.

I believe in prevention rather than pre-emption, whether we're talking about birth control or foreign affairs. A little diplomacy and foresight would go a long way in preventing unfortunate outcomes in either case.

Me too, I believe in prevention. But prevention does not always work.

I am much more worried about the children who are already here and suffering every inhumanity they can simply because they are ALIVE.

I do not believe in the term 'pro life'. Most people who call themselves that are also very pro war and pro death penalty.

Most people who call themselves 'prolife' have simply never given birth to as many children as I have.

Sometimes life is just hard for no reason at all, sometimes it is hard because semantics is more important than the actual issue that sparked them.

kos 5678
I notice you when you speak up so assume you lurk. Of course I am pro-life but I am pro-choice as well. All of these moral decisions are difficult and people may say they are 100 percent pro-life or 100 percent pro-choice but it's impossible, because each case is different and there are many issues to consider. There is no way to get away from context.

I am against capital punishment even though the person may have been a heinous criminal because it is cruel and unusual punishment and has not been shown to be a deterrent. I am against war because there is never enough diplomacy leading up to it and it could probably have been presented and the bloodshed can not be proven to have been worth it. I also value the life on both sides, without believing that "our side" has more reason to live.

My father had Parkinsons and I worked for many years in nursing homes. I am for stem cell research and have heard Ron Reagan Jr. speak on the subject. There is much misery with many of the diseases that might be alleviated or helped. I can allow the concept of abortion as a reasoned medical procedure in certain cases (between the woman and her physician) but certainly not casually or thoughtlessly.

I would also support euthanasia as decided between a patient and their physician. I have questions about some of the procedures people use to become pregnant when they are having difficulty, which tend to result in multiple births. I have questions about some of the extreme measures which are taken to save barely viable infants who are born way too early (such as weighing one pound), when so many developmental disabilities and problems are common with them. So on all of these positions, it is not a clear choice, but there are many variables to consider and each case is different.

It is very difficult to stop people from having unprotected sex unless there is good, biologically accurate sex education and available birth control. If people knew more, they might actually choose to abstain rather than having to be taught to do so. I work with many Catholics so am pretty familiar with their beliefs, and they do not all believe in the same way but the ones I know have thought it all out and are consistent. I know the good work they do, and on their personal time, such as volunteering in overseas orphanages.

It is the package of beliefs that come with some of the "pro-life" people I have met that offend me. Not all have that outlook.

I am not offended by people aligning with their own gender, crossing gender or mixing race. How do I know what it is like to walk in their shoes, breathe their air, love with their hearts? I believe in love. If they are not harming anyone, what business is it of anyone else? It can't be that marriage is being harmed or the divorce rate would not be so high in the first place. It has to be for another reason, such as that people are incompatible or grow apart and can't bridge their differences. Once again, if there was more education about what marriage might entail, people might go into it more carefully and leave it less casually.
I have also known in my lifetime people who never legally married who had much closer, quality relationships than those who did.

End of moral sermon and I hope a long discussion does not ensue because I'm quite tired of all these issues and really do believe that each person should make the effort to figure them out and then not get upset when others come to different conclusions. An experiment in society controlling moral beliefs will always fail over the long term due to natural backlash. The Taleban will eventually collapse and so will their equivalent in other religious systems. The only thing that may have a hope of triumphing is "moderation in all things", which comes from the Buddhists and is not popular with extremists on the left or right.

Posted by: Ralpheh at June 20, 2007 11:06 PM

There is an impeachment forum here (Seattle) this weekend.
People should not give up but it should have been done back in 2002 when Ramsey Clark had already laid out a case. I think it has been hopeless for the same reasons that the moron was able to get in illegally via connections at the Supreme Court. If we had not got more Dems in at the 2006 election, we would be doomed. The process is still way too (expletive) slow and the ranks of the Dems are getting impatient. I agree with Kos that all of those running have some good points but like him, can't center in on one person to work for yet. We have such a long way to go in this country. I never in my lifetime believe things would ever get this messed up.

Posted by: not my president at June 21, 2007 09:48 AM

agreed

FROM HILLARY'S SPEECH YESTERDAY:

(sounds a lot like a speech from George Bush)

This morning at the Take Back America conference when Senator Hillary Clinton took the stage CODEPINKers held up pink signs reading "Lead Us Out of Iraq Now!" and pleaded with the senator to bring our troops home now, to be a leader in ending the occupation of Iraq. While Hillary made some great promises about offering universal healthcare and ensuring a preschool education for every American child, and reiterated that she voted no on the last Supplemental spending bill to appropriate funds to the war, without her leadership on actually bringing our troops home with a full and immediate troop withdrawal, it remains unclear where funds would come from for these excellent domestic programs, and how we can move forward as a nation. Hillary's commentary about the Iraq war included a commentary about how the US has liberated Iraq from Saddam, helped hold democratic elections, and installed the Iraqi government. Her commentary seemed to blame Iraq for the ongoing violence, which in turn was met with loud boos from the audience. Hillary walked a careful talk today, but it was not convincing to many in the audience, who feel the only way that trust in Hillary could be restored is through her actions to end the war, not her rhetoric. As an aside, Hillary asserted that the US is the oldest democracy. I seem to remember something about Athens appearing in a school textbook. Hillary also stated that the US has the hardest working population in the world. To me, that kind of hubris does not inspire the kind of patriotism I feel for this country and the global community.

ATTORNEY-GATE:

McNulty testifies today before Congress....

http://www.c-span.org

Sorry ABOVE ^ ^

McNulty is Deputy Attorney General testifying about the attorney firings

(he may have committed perjury in his previous testimony - so what else is new???)

Christie, as one who does remember your stories, I'm so glad to hear that it's being resolved. And dumbfounded in a way that it went on that way for so long.

I'm sure the rest of the story will be very, very interesting.

Happy Summer Solstice!!
Laissez les bon temps roules!!!

Summertime
by George Gershwin

Summertime,
And the livin' is easy
Fish are jumpin'
And the cotton is high

Your daddy's rich
And your mamma's good lookin'
So hush little baby
Don't you cry

One of these mornings
You're going to rise up singing
Then you'll spread your wings
And you'll take to the sky

But till that morning
There's a'nothing can harm you
With daddy and mamma standing by

Summertime,
And the livin' is easy
Fish are jumpin'
And the cotton is high

Your daddy's rich
And your mamma's good lookin'
So hush little baby
Don't you cry

And Christy - is the email address for your name, the correct one. If so, I sent you an email last night - about 24 hours ago.

HAHA DW, I know for a fact you remember my wild theories!

I am certain you understand why we need a little more time.

I will be honest, I still give us a 1 % chance of finding her body. For us it will end there.

But as for the other... It is like our wildest dreams and most dreaded fears are all happening simultainiously.

I can barely wrap my head around it anymore and I have no idea how to feel about it, the stakes are getting higher every day.

I won't give up if yall don't give up.

Sorry Woz, checking now.

Posted by: Christy at June 21, 2007 08:34 AM

When is conception?

When the sperm meets the egg or when the fertilized egg is implanted?

Even that difference of opinion leads some people to be for or against the 'morning after' pill.

And also, that difference is what also directs this stem cell research 'debate'.

Summer solstice celebrated at Stonehenge

STONEHENGE, England (AP) —Thousands of modern-day druids, pagans and partygoers converged on Stonehenge early Thursday to cheer the dawn of the longest day of the year in the northern hemisphere—the summer solstice.
Clad in antlers, black cloaks and oak leaves, a group gathered at the Heel stone—a twisted, pockmarked pillar at the edge of the prehistoric monument—to welcome the rising sun as revelers danced and yelled.

Jeanette Montesano, a 23-year-old recently graduated religion student from New York and a self-described pagan, said she had been saving for a year to make it to Stonehenge, comparing the importance of the trip to the Muslim pilgrimage to Mecca.

"It's not the hajj, but it is 19,000 people in a little circle. I wanted to experience something like that."

An estimated 20,000 people gathered at the stone circle in Wiltshire, in southwestern England. Dancers writhed to the sound of drums and whistles as floodlights colored the ancient pillars shades of pink and purple, and couples snuggled under plastic sheets.

Solstice celebrations were a highlight of the pre-Christian calendar. People in many countries still celebrate with bonfires, maypole dances and courtship rituals.

In more recent years, New Age groups and others have turned to Stonehenge to celebrate the solstice, and the World Heritage Site has become a magnet for those seeking a spiritual experience—or just wanting to have a good time.

more...
http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_6191420

I just heard the saddest commentary driving in today - on NPR - about the increase in infant mortality in the Mississippi Delta. Shameful.
No access to a physician until the 8th month of pregnancy for many moms. Minimal education about pregnancy, healthy diet, etc. Too many social workers, too much poverty. It's hard to believe this is "America."

& re the "hard working" Americans H Clinton talks about (Posted by: Ralpheh at June 21, 2007 10:09 AM) -- well we have the least vacation or sick time in the developed world. Heard another NPR commentary yesterday about how many Americans have NO sick time and come to work sick, which isn't good for productivity either. I have worked nine years in one place and have never taken a sick day - so I can have a decent vacation. It's not right, after all these years. I started working at age 11 (dishwasher).

Posted by: sparrow at June 21, 2007 10:40 AM

I'm beginning to think women should just withhold sex, til war stops (like Lysistrata).

I also never did hear how many angels can dance on a pin head.

Posted by: not my president at June 21, 2007 10:44 AM

Well, that might get something done much more quickly!

And also, it puts those preaching abstinence in the position of having to follow what they preach too.

Jessee Lee from the Speaker's blog posted in Jesselyn Radack's thread. Please leave a comment if you so chose.

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2007/6/20/75811/7281/119#c119

Christy,

I hope your mystery is solved although I am not sure I believe in the whole notion of 'closure'. Still... after all the years of pain and wondering and the sense of betrayal and fear, I hope at the end there will be justice of some sorts.

I want you to know, even if I don't personally comment, I have tremendous sympathy for you and your family. I am hoping that at the end of this, you and your family will get some peace.

And even though you lost Aline here on earth, and nothing can replace that, she has been watching over your family from Heaven.

I believe life is created as soon as the egg is fertalized.

To me in all abortions, no matter the timing is an act of death for that new life.

I am not in a position to judge the actions of someone who cut away a life from their own bodies that created it.

If you kill a child that is already here and named, that is an act of murder. Cutting away life that can not be sustained without drawing from your own body I can not classify as 'murder' nor can I feel any moral enthronement that would allow me to judge those women of girls who did.

That is between them, their doctor, and God.

I have 5 children and I fully understand the implications and potential of that life that is being created, but this is the simple truth....

Because YOU believe in God, or that it is murder, or have moral issues with it, that does not in any way justify you also having so much control over my body that somehow the life I choose to create is your bussiness.

I believe in keeping your damn laws OFF my body.

Sparrow, TY.

I appreciate it. It is no prob you don't comment. Sometimes I have no idea what to say about it either.

Other than 'Holy Sh*t.'

I believe in keeping your damn laws OFF my body.

Posted by: Christy at June 21, 2007 11:16 AM

Wait...

If people are to keep their 'damn laws OFF my body' then why create laws against drugs, alcohol, marijuana, etc...? Why not just have laws against drunk or drugged driving but let the substances be legal?

(PS. Just throwing that out there, because I'm even undecided on the medical marijuana issue--so I'm just playing devil's advocate.)

Posted by: not my president at June 21, 2007 10:42 AM

Where I live, vacations and sick days are LUXURIES - because if your employer can afford to lose you for a few days to vacation or sick days, you are NOT essential, therefore your employer is better off functioning without you, period.

Besides, why does your employer need to pay you $25/hr or whatever obscene wage you demand, when a compliant illegal will do the same job for $5/hr?

The most obscene thing is, Koreatown has the least vacation/sick day/health insurance of any ethnic community in America, yet they still keep voting for the Republicans, who love this status quo.

Koreatown is also one of the few ethnic communities you will come across, that opposes minimum wage increases, labor organizing, and stronger labor laws. In Koreatown, only idiots take high-benefit government positions.

Compare this with the Filipino community, which reveres government service and supports organized labor and stronger labor laws. I deal with government workers all the time on military bases, and most Asians among them are Filipinos, with smaller Chinese and Japanese contingent.

"Wait...

If people are to keep their 'damn laws OFF my body' then why create laws against drugs, alcohol, marijuana, etc...? Why not just have laws against drunk or drugged driving but let the substances be legal?

Sparrow

Ok.

Seriously, Ok I agree with that.

I find the drug war only slightly more retarded than the Iraq war and filled with just as much propaganda.

Legalize drugs and suddenly...addiction becomes the addicts responsibility.

I am for laws angainst any MANUFATURED drug.

If it has to be processed then it should be illegal. It is only processed to make it more potent and more addictive.

Big tabbacco would FREAK OUT if they no longer to put 'additives' in their product.

Mary Jane’s Last Dance
by Tom Petty

She grew up in an Indiana town
Had a good lookin momma who never was around
But she grew up tall and she grew up right
With them Indiana boys on an Indiana night

Well she moved down here at the age of 18
She blew the boys away, it was more than they'd se en
I was introduced and we both started groovin
She said, I dig you baby but I got to keep movin
...on, keep movin on

Last dance with mary jane
One more time to kill the pain
I feel summer creepin in and I'm
Tired of this town again

Well I dont know what I've been told
You never slow down, you never grow old
I'm tired of screwing up, I'm tired of goin down
I'm tire of myself, I'm tired of this town
Oh my my, oh hell yes
Honey put on that party dress
Buy me a drink, sing me a song,
Take me as I come cause I cant stay long

Last dance with mary jane
One more time to kill the pain
I feel summer creepin in and I'm
Tired of this town again

T heres pidgeons down in market square
Shes standin in her underwear
Lookin down from a hotel room
Nightfall will be comin soon
Oh my my, oh hell yes
Youve got to put on that party dress
It was too cold to cry when I woke up al one
I hit the last number, I walked to the road

Last dance with mary jane
One more time to kill the pain
I feel summer creepin in and I'm
Tired of this town again

For some actual scientific insight on the stem cell debate from someone to whom it is a very personal issue, check out this diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/6/21/15924/5659

She addresses the cell question in a very scientific way and she makes a good point for those who don't really know what's going on in the actual physical science.

Kos5678:

unfortunately I have become a lurker as you. 2 points about your views on abortion:
1. I don't and I don't think most progressives would consider you a 'nutcase' b/c you oppose abortion. Harry Reid and exCongressmen Gephart oppose abortion so you are not alone;
2. I do have a problem with those who disagree with your views on abortion being labeled as baby killers. My understanding of being pro choice is that we can respect your absolute right to your views on abortion and your moral objection to it. What we don't respect is being told that we must either agree with your values about abortion or labeled as wild eyed baby killers. I call it tolerance to respect the values of others we might diagree with and expect that same respect by them. In otherwords disagree without being disagreeable;
3. I have a problem with one issue voters who tend to be folks who oppose abortion. While I was in Cleveland last summer working on the Sherrod Brown campaign I came across people who were truly frightened by what had happened to their economy and the destruction of the Cleveland middle class and who opposed everything that Republicans had done to their state. And yet some of those same voters would approach me at campaign festivals and say they agree with the direction my candidates wanted to take the state of Ohio to climb out of their economic demise but would not even consider supporting them if they were not 100% opposed to abortion. I respect your views on abortion but cannot understand how that one issue turns otherwise thoughtful people into ignoring every other major issue effecting their lives from healthcare to jobs. Personally I am sick of even discussing abortion and believe it has come to divide this country and caused us to forfeit progress on dealing with other significan issues that effect our families' lives. Without the abortion issue there never would have been a President Bush, a Republican Congress or a southern Republican party. When will we ever move away from abortion being our number 1 concern? Hopefully that will not brand me as judgmental or negative but rather as hopeful.

Kos5678 & Bubba bring up good points: labels, negativity, bigotness (on both sides), and the use of individual words that further divide all of us and make us even more resolved against the other side than we might be if we dropped the name-calling and found a way to meet in the middle.

Example 1: Labelling your opponents as "Baby-killers or murderers" as Bubba pointed out stops any means of working together! Labelling is easy. But for all of us, whether Christian, Jews, Athiests, Muslims etc, the bigger question is how do we work together to get a result somewhere in the middle--like for instance safe, legal, and very rare?

Let's start with the theory that we are all pro-life! Then move forward from there.

Example 2: Labelling Christians as "Christians, fundy's, etc" is a reaction to knowing that people of faith were suckered into trusting a man and a party who were abusing their trust. And it's anger at those who called Bush "A good Christian" when clearly he is not! It's also continued anger against the 28% who know the man and this party are liars and crooked but still support them. Anger is one thing.

But we can not continue to just be angry. We have to move forward.

So what happens if instead of all of us continuing to use those labels, we instead taught tolerance for people of all faiths (including athiests)? How come as Christians, Jews, Athiests, (etc) we can not move forward as a group and work together for better things in the future?

I use to teach my children that "God loves all of us. We're all his children." To me, that statement includes everyone. And a discussion with a good friend of mine--who is a devout Christian and a former homeschooler like me--led to a discussion that might be relevant here.

My question to her was "Why does God let bad things happen?" (ie. the Holocaust and things like in the thread header--like Rove, Bush, and Cheney...). Her response was "God gave us choices. That in itself is God's gift to us. We can chose our own path. We have the choice to chose good over bad. We have the choice to be one religion over another religion. God loves us, so God gave us the gift of making choices for our self. And in the end, 'God still loves all of us. We're all his children.'"

Great to come at lunch and see intelligent discussion of controversial discussions.

Good to get a legal opinion from Bubba once again! Glad you still lurk!

Re what was Posted by: sparrow at June 21, 2007 10:40 AM

Re drug laws, I think it is largely regional as we are using here a "low priority" enforcement on "soft drugs" so the police can concentrate on hard drugs and big dealers, meth labs etc. Our law is similar to SF, Portland, Vancouver BC and London UK. This might not be appropriate somewhere else.

That's one reason I hate to see alot of sweeping federal law under this administration. I was never a "state's rights" person nor did I see the sense in "community standards" when it comes to adult entertainment. Now that the tables have been turned and these nutballs are in poer, I am all for Olympia, King County and City of Seattle calling the shots rather than Bush.

Therefore, really hate to see DOMA and other "fed" regulations that are hard to enforce anyway, as there is alot of bureaucracy and a great deal of the money has been squandered at war. As examples of the ineptness of the feds at "taking care of us" - think of Hurricane Katrina aftermath, the Walter Reed scandal re medical care of vets, and the fiasco of trying to issue passports for travellers and getting totally swamped.

Girl scouts advise "Be Prepared." They would do a much better job at running government. Grover Norquist wanted to flush US government down the bathtub drain. In certain situations, I wish he would do so, and in others I think he's crazy as a loon.

This government has not regulated anything that matters. As a case in point, I know alot of little autistic kids who carry around James the Tank Engine who happens to be covered with red paint. I know someone who found such red paint in their kid's diaper and then little teethmarks on the tank engine. The last thing autistic kids need is more toxins, in this case the LEAD in the red paint. There is a huge increase in autism and there was just the first federal case last week linking it to mercury. Mercury has been removed from most vaccines yet there are still many many toxins out there and the government doesn't care.

See Michael Moore's "Sicko." I haven't but have talked to several who have (and shouldn't have peeked yet!) Read recent cases of "fake" Colgate which entered the US DUE TO LACK OF FEDERAL REGULATION, and contained antifreeze.

Please government, regulate my toothpaste before you start controlling my sex and recreation. Clean my air.

"That's one reason I hate to see alot of sweeping federal law under this administration. I was never a "state's rights" person nor did I see the sense in "community standards" when it comes to adult entertainment.

"As examples of the ineptness of the feds at "taking care of us" - think of Hurricane Katrina aftermath, the Walter Reed scandal re medical care of vets, and the fiasco of trying to issue passports for travellers and getting totally swamped."

Not my president either

I appreciate your remarks about the ineptness of the federal government but please understand that this administration has eviscerated and politicized most every branch of the federal government from FEEMA to the Justice Department to the FDA and Health and Human Servces. There is a saying we leared during the Nixon Admistration that I remind myself of each day, "And this too will pass".

What you point to is not the fault of those agencies which have failed us these last 6 years as much as an Adminstration hell bent to do exactly what you have suggested, dismantle the federal government and turn our health and welfare over to our states and private companies.My biggest complaint is that during no point in my lifetime have I seen government agencies protected by the Hatch Act, allow that bright line between government service and politics breached and in that sense I certainly agree with you. I am not ready to accept that scenario as the final word on our broken government unless we should be so unfortunate as to see the neocons manage to win in November 2008. Recall the job James Whitt did with hurricane preparedness when we had a President that cared about the"general" welfare and Donna Shalala's admirable service with Health and Human services in the 1990s. So what you see now is atypical of most compitent administrations.

Bubba,

Good words to remember...

Thanks for the perspective.

Posted by: kos5678 at June 21, 2007 06:00 AM

Thank you, kos5678. It's nice to know you're out there.