Fixing A Broken System: Healthcare - Part II

Great follow on DiAnne. Advertising dollars are powerful dollars. We have both here - private and national. I got exactly the same care with insurance that I get now with no insurance - even my own specialist. Yes. Individuals pay less. Some individuals choose to pay more by taking out private insurance as well as contributing to the national system.

Keeping people healthier and less stressed is certainly an economic efficiency. If health comes down to economics. And I guess it does in America right now.

And guess who else benefits? Employers. No more offering health care with employment. Each employee pays his/her own %age with their tax before collecting weekly/fortnightly salary.

offtopic...

Official: Report will say none of Iraq’s goals met
Draft, coming out this week, expected to accelerate debate on withdrawal

BREAKING NEWS
NBC News and news services
July 9, 2007

WASHINGTON - A progress report on Iraq will conclude that the U.S.-backed government in Baghdad has not met any of its targets for political, economic and other reform, speeding up the Bush administration's reckoning on what to do next, a U.S. official said Monday.

One likely result of the report will be a vastly accelerated debate among President Bush's top aides on withdrawing troops and scaling back the U.S. presence in Iraq.

The "pivot point" for addressing the matter will no longer be Sept. 15, as initially envisioned, when a full report on Bush's so-called "surge" plan is due, but instead will come this week when the interim mid-July assessment is released, the official said.

"The facts are not in question," the official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because the draft is still under discussion. "The real question is how the White House proceeds with a post-surge strategy in light of the report."

The report, required by law, is expected to be delivered to Capitol Hill by Thursday or Friday, as the Senate takes up a $649 billion defense policy bill and votes on a Democratic amendment ordering troop withdrawals to begin in 120 days.

Also being drafted are several Republican-backed proposals that would force a new course in Iraq, including one by Sens. Susan Collins, R-Maine, and Ben Nelson, D-Neb., that would require U.S. troops to abandon combat missions. Collins and Nelson say their binding amendment would order the U.S. mission to focus on training the Iraqi security forces, targeting al-Qaida members and protecting Iraq's borders.

"My goal is to redefine the mission and set the stage for a significant but gradual drawdown of our troops next year," said Collins.

more slow learners here...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19684595/

Someone posted Michael Moore on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvg-U6uKo6g

These Republicans have left the fold (of "surge" support) at 1-2 per day:

1) Luger
2) Voinovich
3) Dominici
4) Gregg
5) Alexander
6) Collins
7) Snowe

Warner may be next!

I guess Fox commentators have smoke coming out of their ears.

This might be like the Soviets and Afghanistan then Chechnya.
Their wars against Muslim tribal people reduced them to a minor power because of the high cost. The Russian generals warned us about Afghanistan and the British should have been able to warn us about Iraq, not join in!

I just got the 40th anniversary issue of Rolling Stone and the whole thing is about 1967. I was 15 years old and radicalized by what I saw, heard and experienced. My dad was a garbage man (he quit teaching because of severe post-traumatic stress) and brought home a box that a friend of mine was shipped home in. My boyfriend, age 17, was a Marine.

Anyway, that year the antiwar movement really went into full swing yet the war lasted about eight more years. Yet in 1967, 11,000 plus Americans had been killed and that was the year that there were twice as many killed as the year before, and many more than in the 11 years the war went on before that. So considering the French involvement before us, it was a 20 year war or so.

Last time I heard Congressman McDermott, he pointed out that when McGovern ran, no one liked his plan and he took only one state (Massachusetts). His plan was for Congress to only appropriate enough money to bring everyone home. A few years later, people realized he was right. It was a quagmire but we couldn't fix it.

Those motorcycle riders that come on Memorial Day to DC and support Bush? They are called Rolling Thunder and that's the same name they gave for this monstrous bombing attack on the North Vietnamese. We were always told that if the North Vietnamese weren't wiped out, the whole region would become Communist and gradually the whole world. Rolling Thunder.

Why always these elaborate heavy metal names? They try to lend a bizarre romantic twist to these unspeakable war games that are real.

We are trying not to focus on the negative but if we don't remember, who will? NPR is having a special on Morning Edition about how much sacrifice Americans are willing to make. I hated the sound clip because it didn't seem balanced and the clip they played was a guy who said that supporting the troops without supporing the war was "patriotism lite" - the assumption seems to be that we should sacrifice for a war we didn't support in the first place and worked hard to stop before it started.

I've stated my opinion about health insurance in this country before, so I won't repeat my rant about their legalized scams for profit.

Totally OT, but relevant to what could happen in DC if our Congress Critters had any courage:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/9/20378/62042
Impeachment by Frog-Marching Congressional Oversight

Someone posted Michael Moore on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvg-U6uKo6g

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 12:08 AM

Excellent. Thanks sparrow.

Ahh nmp - to focus on the negative trips us up, I think. BUT to ignore the lessons will bring us to greater harm. Before the Iraq invasion had ever begun, I was arguing that we would never do it. The population wouldn't allow it. Not after Vietnam. Boy, did I end up with egg on my face.

Most Australians were against our complicity with Bush's mania. And most lost the battle at home. Mr Huff-n-Puff knows more than we do about terrorists and what they think and what they do. He needs to go not just to the other side of the world, but onto a different hemisphere.

How many lessons do we need to never let morons lead our countries? Or bludgeon us into an invasion where we have no business being.

The lessons must be learned.

It's true. I thought someone was BS'ing me from The Onion.
US and Canada have disputed territory (NW Passage) and Canada is increasing its troop strength there.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070709/canada-arctic-sovereignty/

Global warming is exposing more under-sea treasures and both want them. Oil.

And guess who else benefits? Employers. No more offering health care with employment.

Posted by: woz at July 9, 2007 11:22 PM

Absolutely! Whether it's a small employer like me, or gigantic ones like GM and United Airlines, not having to administer healthcare will be a huge relief - and a huge boost to our competitiveness.

Well, if there's all that oil to get out of there, so we can really fk the planet; we'd better get to work. And while you wrestle that one up there, we are battling down here every summer when the Japanese whaling fleet comes for the annual slaughter of our humpback and minke whales.

From the southern-most point of Tasmania we can almost see them. Talk about slow learners! Will we ever, ever let other people and other species have their share of the bounty of this planet.

The end is near. I hope.

Bush aides push for Iraq retreat
David Sanger, New York, and Brendan Nicholson, Canberra
July 10, 2007
SENIOR US officials are debating whether President George Bush should announce a gradual withdrawal of US troops from Iraqi cities following the defection of several key Republicans over the Administration's war strategy.

About half a dozen Republican senators have recently announced they can no longer support Mr Bush's Iraq strategy and have demanded change.

As a result, some aides are now telling Mr Bush that if he wants to avoid more defections, he should announce plans for a far more narrowly defined mission that would allow for a staged pullback — including withdrawal of American troops from high-casualty neighbourhoods of Baghdad and elsewhere.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/bush-aides-push-for-iraq-retreat/2007/07/09/1183833431577.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_as/china_tainted_products
China executes ex-food and drug chief

Reservist Sues Army Over Fifth War Call-Up
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/070907T.shtml
Amy Driscoll of The Miami Herald reports on Erik Botta, an Army reservist, who is challenging his fifth order to deploy in eight years.

NonnyO, I just read that. It's appalling. If you get killed for bribing, what do you get for murder?

Good morning Woz.

Why am I up this early?!!!

Anyways, Michael Moore has posted his rebuttal to CNN.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/news/article.php?id=10017

Could this be the straw that finally shakes up the media to stop doing the corporations' bidding?

Michael Moore did a great job of educating CNN. Each claim was rebutted by a nonparisan-noncorporate source. The WTO or US-HHS. There was one source when it talks about customer satisfaction that was from a magazine.

But check this out at the bottom:

"CNN: "But no matter how much Moore fudged the facts, and he did fudge some facts…"

This is libel. There is not a single fact that is "fudged" in the film. No one has proven a single fact in the film wrong. We expect CNN to correct their mistakes on the air and to apologize to their viewers."

CNN better be making corrections OFTEN and not just once. I know how they hype up for their shows. So they spent many times hinting before they showed the actual show.

(OK..I have no proof that they actually smeared more first. But I bet ya they said something about Gupta having the goods on Sicko.)

Too bad this is only a Dailykos survey instead of a msn one:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/9/175344/8323

Poll
Was CNN complicit in deceiving the American public into support for the War?

Yes
98% 4135 votes
No
1% 55 votes

| 4190 votes

Since I've got the floor.... ha ha ha.... Let me add that when my brother tried to point to CNN's war coverage and being on the tanks rolling in as PROOF of LIBERAL BIAS, I would have to say it was easier than taking candy from a baby to respond to that lame claim.

Simply pointing out that the LEFT was (and is) ANTI WAR so how does going all John Wayne Does Iraq HELP the LIBERALS?

Watching him blush at that was almost worth the price of admission!

~~~
OH and now that I"m talking to myself here, I wonder if movable type/invision can handle emoticons. I want some emoticons!

DAVID VITTER!

THE WHOREMONGER!

HAHAHAHAHA! AHHHH HAHAHAHA!

I have been waiting for something like this to happen ever since we got a letter from him saying how drilling in ANWR would not REALLY hurt the migration of animals, no, no, not at all, in fact it would HELP them.

My man told him he had obviously never actually worked om an oil rig before.

HAHAHA!!!

Could this be the straw that finally shakes up the media to stop doing the corporations' bidding?

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 06:36 AM

At last. We need people like Michael Moore to make more noise about the MSMs despicable reporting.

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 06:55 AM

Oh wow! Amazing poll results!

Posted by: woz at July 10, 2007 07:26 AM

Sadly woz...it's only Dailykos.

Dailykos=mostly the choir.

If it were on msgop then it might be different.

Maybe we can stick a poll like that in Free Republic and see what they have to say. (ha ha ha)

I do want to point out this link on Michael Moore's site. Please consider doing this if at all possible.

". Sign this petition urging your congresspeople to pass H.R. 676 so that all individuals residing in the United States can receive high quality, affordable health care services. If you live in California, tell your legislature to pass S.B. 840, which was vetoed by Governor Schwarzenegger last year.

3. Post a YouTube video of your health care horror story (Clayton Redfield did and Look What Happened!). Don't forget to mention the name of your insurance company. We'll post some more of them on the website.

. Send your health care horror story to your member of congress (be sure to CC michael@michaelmoore.com) or pay them a house call to let them know how you feel.

5. Band together with organizations to bring down private, for-profit health insurance companies."

http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/what-can-i-do/

Click on the link to see the story of a family who got Aetna to pay the $65,000 they were demanding from a guy for a so called 'pre-existing condition.'

Also...I want to point out that many months ago, I invited people to join the PDA for Healthcare reform. We were talking about holding healthcare hearings similar to what Michael Moore is doing.

Please join.

Also, please do what Michael Moore suggests...no matter who you're supporting in 08, please ask that person to give details on their healthcare proposal.

Gonzales was told of FBI violations
After getting report, attorney general said he knew of no wrongdoing

By John Solomon
washingtonpost.com
Updated: 29 minutes ago

As he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act two years ago, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales assured lawmakers that the FBI had not abused its potent new terrorism-fighting powers. "There has not been one verified case of civil liberties abuse," Gonzales told senators on April 27, 2005.

Six days earlier, the FBI sent Gonzales a copy of a report that said its agents had obtained personal information that they were not entitled to have. It was one of at least half a dozen reports of legal or procedural violations that Gonzales received in the three months before he made his statement to the Senate intelligence committee, according to internal FBI documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.

The acts recounted in the FBI reports included unauthorized surveillance, an illegal property search and a case in which an Internet firm improperly turned over a compact disc with data that the FBI was not entitled to collect, the documents show. Gonzales was copied on each report that said administrative rules or laws protecting civil liberties and privacy had been violated.

more lawlessness and lies...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19685278/

Democrats eyeing universal health care
'08 candidates embrace pragmatic steps, not a complete overhaul

By Perry Bacon Jr.
washingtonpost.com
July 10, 2007

In a conference call in January, the health-care debate within the Democratic Party played out before former senator John Edwards of North Carolina, who was in search of policy advice for his presidential campaign, and his wife, Elizabeth.

On one side was Ezekiel Emanuel, a doctor and bioethics expert and the brother of Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.), arguing that the American health-care system is so riddled with inefficiencies that it needs to be blown up and replaced by a plan in which people can buy coverage themselves with a voucher.

On the other side was an economist from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who has become possibly the party's most influential health-care expert and a voice of realism in its internal debates.

"Far be it for me to lecture you on politics, Senator Edwards," Jonathan Gruber recalled saying, and then he did just that. He told Edwards that whatever the merits of Emanuel's idea, it just would not be politically viable. Instead, Gruber argued for a more incremental approach, like the one in Massachusetts he helped write. Its central elements would be providing subsidies to people who are unable to pay for health care, increasing the number of those who are enrolled in public programs such as Medicaid and creating a public agency to help anyone ineligible for the programs buy health insurance.

A month later, when Edwards announced his health-care plan, he almost completely sided with Gruber. And he is not alone. For the first time since President Bill Clinton's plan for health-care reform, overseen by his wife, collapsed in 1994, the leading Democratic presidential candidates are campaigning in favor of universal health care. But in developing their specific plans, they are embracing the pragmatic steps advocated by the MIT professor and a group of similar-minded policy experts, many of whose ideas were shaped by their first exposure to the perils of health-care politics 13 years ago.

"Plans which minimize the disruption to the existing system are more likely to succeed than plans that rip up the existing system and start over," said Gruber, who has consulted with the three leading Democratic campaigns about their health plans. "It doesn't take a genius to see that. That's not to say that plans ripping it up wouldn't be better -- I just think they're political non-starters."

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19686903/

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 07:32 AM

Then I'm surprised it wasn't 100%

Would anyone else like to join me today?

I will be calling the whoremongers offices to ask when he will be resigning!!!

David Vitter (R-La.)

Contact My Office
Acadiana
800 Lafayette St.,
Suite 1200
Lafayette, LA 70501
Phone: (337) 262-6898
Fax: (337) 262-6373

Baton Rouge/River Parishes
858 Convention St.
Baton Rouge, LA 70802
Phone: (225) 383-0331
Fax: (225) 383-0952

Central Louisiana
2230 S. MacArthur Dr.,
Suite 4
Alexandria, LA 71301
Phone: (318) 448-0169
Fax: (318) 448-0189

Northeast Louisiana
1217 N. 19th St.
Monroe, LA 71201
Phone: (318) 325-8120
Fax: (318) 325-9165

Northwest Louisiana
920 Pierremont Road, Suite 113
Shreveport, LA 71106
Phone: (318) 861-0437
Fax: (318) 861-4865

Southeast Louisiana
2800 Veterans Blvd.,
Suite 201
Metairie, LA 70002
Phone: (504) 589-2753
Fax: (504) 589-2607

Southwest Louisiana
3221 Ryan St., Suite E
Lake Charles, LA 70601
Phone: (337) 436-0453
Fax: (337) 436-3163

Washington, D.C.
516 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Phone: (202) 224-4623
Fax: (202) 228-5061

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 07:46 AM

I disagree with that dude, Jonathan Gruber, about starting with plans that don't rip up the current policies.

First, the pharma and HMO's are already powerful lobbies. They will never allow an incremental plan. OR rather the only type of thing they will allow is similar to what other states who offer pools do.

1. They allow insurance companies to more easily turn down applicants to throw them in the state pool.
2. They then allow the same insurance companies who already TURNED DOWN THE APPLICANT to then PICK UP THAT APPLICANT at a HIGHER RATE with LESS COVERAGE!

You talk about having your cake and eating it too. They've got it!

And he thinks we should start with that?

I say, break up the healthcare monopolies, give everyone coverage, and allow for-profit healthcare coverage for anything cosmetic. And I say cosmetic care should be covered in a universal healthcare for victims of diseases who require reconstructive surgery; but for anyone getting a liposuction or something like that, then let the free market rule.

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 07:54 AM

At least he wasn't in office to participate in the Clinton impeachment.

Though I'm sure we'll be seeing Democratic people on her list eventually.

But now I'm wondering...perhaps the Clinton impeachment wasn't so much about the rule of law. Perhaps it was just a deep seeded jealousy that they need to buy their s*x (or do it with minors) whereas Clinton got his for free.

And to think of all the effort (and success) they had framing it as if the liberals were nothing but deviant sex maniacs.

If any dem senators from Louisiana are on that list, I will be calling them to resign as well.

Vitter may have just very well ensured Louisiana will go bonnie blue.

Down here in the buckle of the bible belt, having a prostitute at your beck and call will not be going over very well with the faithful.

And we all know how many faithful there is down here. There are more churches here than stores and schools combined.

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 08:08 AM

Sounds like my county from where we use to live. I think I read somewhere that it had more churches in that county than any other in the state. I'm not sure I believe it but I do know that in the other sleepy town there were at least 5 churches all within the village limits.

Christy,

Is he a Senator or a Rep?

The World in 7 Pictures

http://www.tocforme.com/quotes/worldinonly.html

US and Canada have disputed territory (NW Passage) and Canada is increasing its troop strength there.

Posted by: not my president at July 10, 2007 01:07 AM

I am *so* ready to do an icebreaker tour...now maybe it will be an icebreaker/law enforcement/living marine resources (fisheries)/environmental protection/homeland security tour!

Great pictures, Monkey.

I will have nightmares about the Thailand and India ones though! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECK

Posted by: V at July 10, 2007 08:15 AM

I was about to remind you that it's cold there. Then I remembered...Mobile, Alabama.

'nuff said!

Vitter is a SENATOR.

HAHAHAHA!! HAHAHA!!

HEHEHEHEHE!

Morning folks...grab your coffee or juice and run to the irc...while the blue light special lasts.

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 08:19 AM

Can I grab something else????

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 08:23 AM

Only if it won't make me blush.

(And I have a low tolerance at the blushing level.)

So, guess who is Rudy's campaign chair for the South?

Sen. Vitter.

Kind of makes sense though...

Your kidding?

HAHAHAHA!! HAHA!!

Oh Vitter has got to go down now.

See what he said how it is between him his wife and GOD?!!! Hahaha!

Him, his wife, God, the prostitute and his voters is what he should have said.

HAHAHA!! OMG too delicious.

Posted by: madame defarge at July 10, 2007 08:43 AM

Maybe they can talk about Mistresses?

Seriously, I am glad to see the curtains being opened on Republicans' sexual hypocricy.

My morning cuppa in the irc is done. Sorry I missed other early birds.

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 08:47 AM

Bang a Gong
by T-Rex

Well you're dirty and sweet, clad in black
Don't look back and I love you
You're dirty and sweet, oh yeah
Well you're slim and you're weak
You've got the teeth of a hydra upon you
You're dirty sweet and you're my girl.

Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
Get it on, bang the gong, get it on

You're built like a car, you've got a hub cap diamond star halo
You're built like a car, oh yeah
You're an untamed youth that's the truth with your cloak full of eagles
You're dirty sweet and you're my girl.

Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
Get it on, bang the gong, get it on

You're windy and wild, you've got the blues in your shoes and your
stockings
You're windy and wild, oh yeah
You're built like a car, you've got a hub cap diamond star halo
You're dirty sweet and you're my girl.

Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
Get it on, bang the gong, get it on

You're dirty and sweet, clad in black, don't look back
And I love you
You're dirty and sweet, oh yeah
You dance when you walk so let's dance, take a chance, understand me
You're dirty sweet and you're my girl.

Get it on, bang the gong , get it on
Get it on, bang the gong, get it on

umm, that was intended for Sen Vitter et al, not you sparrow!

The Phew!

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 09:08 AM

um hmmmm I believe you!!

Bush’s press secretary defends Iraq war policy
Administration attempts to bolster support for war ahead of new report

NBC News and news services
Updated: 38 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - A report citing a lack of progress by the Baghdad government is only “a look at the starting line” of the U.S. troop surge and shouldn’t be used by critics to demand withdrawal, President Bush’s spokesman said Tuesday.

“What Congress will get this week is a snapshot of the beginning of the retooling of the mission in Iraq,” said Tony Snow, who defended the administration’s war policy and argued that it’s too soon to be talking about end-game strategies.

“Some of the benchmarks have been made, some of them haven’t,” said Snow, confirming comments that a senior administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity, made to The Associated Press earlier. He described news accounts of the new report as too gloomy.

“Benchmarks are not a way to figure out how to get out of Iraq,” Snow said on CNN. “They’re a device for figuring out how to succeed in Iraq.”

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19691238/from/RS.1/

Karen.

I am about to beg, I am begging you.

Please Please reach out and make sure these two recieve a warm welcome when they do make it. Please.

I will pray to God they make it there ok.

Peace marchers of the loneliest kind
Teens' 3,000-mile trek to D.C. is a rally of 2

By Colleen Mastony
Tribune staff reporter
Published July 9, 2007

LOVELAND, Colo. -- Against the majestic backdrop of the Rocky Mountains, in the far eastern corner of Colorado where the land begins to flatten into a vast golden prairie, two teenagers trudge along the weed-bitten edge of an isolated highway. Blistered and sunburned, they endure wind, rain and searing heat. But still, they slog forward in what has become a quixotic journey across the country in an effort to end the Iraq war.

Ashley Casale, 19, and Michael Israel, 18, are walking 3,000 miles from San Francisco to Washington in a trek they once had hoped would rally the nation and lead thousands to join them in their epic March for Peace. But, nearly halfway through their trip, the teens remain alone, wandering the vast landscape of America, where few have paid them any attention.

"It seems like the country is asleep," said Israel, a rail-thin young man with deep-set blue eyes, walking the roadside on a recent morning, his voice sometimes drowned out by the roar of huge trucks zooming past. "A lot of people we meet are against the war. But it doesn't seem like many people are doing anything about it."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-peace_march_mastony_09jul09,1,867362.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Don't know about yall, but they are a cause I can believe in.

Coulter sold my name to Novak as well as Gingrich. I'm going to keep the mailings, and also belong to NewsMax. It will be confusing when my email is intercepted, in with Code Pink, Michael Moore etc.

"...the chirping of crickets their only encouragement."

Not sure why, but I am bawling like a big baby.

God help us all.

Dwight Eisenhower was the first president to actually use the term "executive privilege," asserting it more than 40 times -- the all-time record -- in refusing demands from Sen. Joseph McCarthy, the communist hunter, who sought the testimony of White House aides.

A document in the Eisenhower library discloses that the president once told his staff, "Any man who testifies as to the advice he gave me won't be working for me that night. I will not allow people around me to be subpoenaed and you might just as well know it now."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19682945/from/RS.5/

Under pressure, White House touts 'retooled' Iraq mission

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Facing calls by lawmakers in President Bush's own party to change Iraq war strategy, the White House announced Tuesday it is "beginning a retooled mission in Iraq" after a disappointing interim report on Iraqi benchmarks.

Although senior administration officials said Monday that the administration plans no major strategy changes in light of the unreleased report, White House spokesman Tony Snow said Tuesday that "what Congress is going to get this week is a snapshot at the beginning of a retooled mission in Iraq. Everybody says, 'We want to do it a new way.' We agree. It's now started."

According to White House spokesman Snow, Bush "wants to pull troops out when the commanders on the on the ground think it's appropriate to do so. You pull out of there quickly, you empower al Qaeda and you make the whole world more dangerous including things right here at home for us in the United States."

more crap...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/10/us.iraq/index.html

"Join the March for Peace! Even if you can only do one day!

If you are interested in joining the march anywhere along the route, please CALL 845-264-3912 to coordinate with the marchers on the road. Also, please fill out the electronic form below. "

http://www.marchforpeace.info/getinvolved.html

I am not sure how, but I think I have just found a reason to leave my 20 mile buffer zone.

Don't know about yall, but they are a cause I can believe in.

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 09:40 AM

Christy: The DCP and Code Pink Overflow house awaits all activists. We have a hunger-striker here now. She just left for her first day, dressed in black, sitting in the Senate Gallery.

And yes, please join the march, if you can!

Micheal Moore is going round two with Blitzer today AND with guppity on Larry King tonight!

Oh my what fun!

Did not have a hand in impeaching him, but was otherwise saying...

Vitter Flashback: Clinton should resign.

Sen. David Vitter (R-LA) first got his start in Congress after replacing former Rep. Bob Livingston (R-LA), who “abruptly resigned after disclosures of numerous affairs” in 1998. At the time, Vitter argued that an extramarital affair was grounds for resignation:

“I think Livingston’s stepping down makes a very powerful argument that Clinton should resign as well and move beyond this mess,” he said. [Atlanta Journal and Constitution, 12/20/98]

Christy--It is finds like that quote that make for good muckraking! Is there a LA -centric blog associated with a mainstream media outlet you can post that on?

I am sorry. My bad.

Think Progress.

www.thinkprogress.org is where the Vitter vs Clinton thing came from.

Sorry I forgot the link.

Officials: McCain shakes up top leadership
Presidential candidate’s campaign manager, chief strategist leave posts

WASHINGTON - John McCain’s campaign manager and chief strategist are gone from their leadership roles, according to two officials with knowledge of the staff changes.

One official said Terry Nelson resigned as campaign manager for the Republican presidential candidate and John Weaver stepped down from his post of chief strategist on Tuesday. But another official said Nelson was fired.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19694088/

Here's another Vitter gem, this time from his wife...

"Vitter, 46, then became Louisiana’s first Republican senator since the end of Reconstruction, and has built a reputation as a solid conservative, opposing abortion rights, same-sex marriage and gun control. Last month, he took a leading role in efforts to kill the comprehensive immigration overhaul bill.

In 2000, Vitter was included in a Newhouse News Service story about the strain of congressional careers on families.

His wife, Wendy, was asked by the Newhouse News reporter: If her husband was as unfaithful as former President Bill Clinton, would she be as forgiving as Hillary Clinton?

“I’m a lot more like Lorena Bobbitt than Hillary,” Wendy Vitter told Newhouse News. “If he does something like that, I’m walking away with one thing, and it’s not alimony, trust me.”

“I think fear is a very good motivating factor in a marriage,” she added. “Don’t put fear down.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0707/4850.html

So I'm wondering what little bronzed trophy (or trophies) Mrs. Vitter has hanging from her rearview mirror...

Go on Mrs. Vitter and cut the bastard.

I would too if I caught my man with a PROSTITUTE.

I just got off the phone with his office and his little guy answering the phones seemed surprised when I asked when it is we can expect Vitters resignation.

He tried reffering me back to 'comments made by the Sanator already' and I told him the quote back and said it is also now between the prostitute and his voters as well.

He asked could he get my name and address... I asked 'What for?'

He says 'So, we can, ummm contact you.'

I told him I do not need to be contacted, just resign.

He seemed kinda shook up when we hung up. Poor man, they probably pay their prostitutes better than their liars.

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 11:45 AM

Of course they do. I already saw the Madame's (not our madame)rate was $260 for 90 minutes. So imagine how excited the staffer would be if Vitter would have compensated him that same $260 dollars.

AND..this is a guy who gets our tax dollars to pay for his healthcare. Hope he gets vd and aids checks.

Posted by: not my president at July 10, 2007 09:42 AM

Coulter REALLY is a "tranny whore," as Randi Rhodes likes to call him/her...

Posted by: madame defarge at July 10, 2007 11:29 AM

Another stupid Republican who killed the goose that lay the golden egg (conservatives AND immigrants, with a lot of overlap).

So, guess who is Rudy's campaign chair for the South?

Sen. Vitter.

Posted by: madame defarge at July 10, 2007 08:43 AM

Proof that all the talk about Rudy being pro-choice/pro-gay is all HOGWASH at best.

Posted by: Ally McRepuke at July 10, 2007 12:10 PM

Or proof that he's trying to butter both sides of the bread.

Tony Snow.

Tony Snow mocking the intelligence of the American public.

DOOCEY: Is the president going to be changing his message?

SNOW: No. And in point of fact, you know, what you find is that, for instance, there’s been some reporting that the White House is going to do a new way. No. What we’re really trying to report on is the new way that started about six months ago.

Also Think progress, with video

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 12:11 PM

Several years ago, Rudy (then the HERO of 9/11) was also the spokesman for California's Republican gubernatorial candidate, Bill Simon, founder of PAX TV network, the darling of Colorado-based theocratic organizations. Simon himself was the darling of the Reagan Country conservatives in the south and the inland areas of the state.

Democrat Gray Davis, unpopular already, barely defeated Simon in 2002, due to Simon's extreme positions - only to be recalled and replaced by the Governator the following year.

Of course, I lived in NYC in the Rudy years, and his apparent pandering to the LGBs - while encouraging Jamaican cab drivers and McDonald's managers to murder T's - was way too evident. I will never forgive that murderer.

Holy Crap look whats out of Denver.

This guy is a US Attorney NOW and he goes the hell OFF on the dick and cheney freak show.

Says he fears reprisals from 'ruthless people' but look what he said...

"Officials who have brought into disrepute both the Department of Justice and the administration of justice as a whole should finally have to answer for it - and the misdeeds at issue involve not merely garden-variety misconduct, but multiple "high crimes and misdemeanors," including war crimes and crimes against humanity. "

Oh hell yes.

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_6308408

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_re_eu/pope_other_christians

Pope: Other Christians not true churches

{{{Oh, goody; just what we need from a reich-wing 'Christian' church; a return to the days of the Inquisition and the Catholic vs. Protestant controversies that led to religious wars and torture and burning at the stake for 'heretics' [snark]. More religious in-fighting on the horizon for Lamestream Media to blather on about endlessly, another distraction from the illegal, unethical, immoral, and dishonorable policies and war crimes of Georgie and Dickie... and to keep political bobbleheads and/or sheeple from mentioning IMPEACHMENT or the 26% "approval" rating for Georgie or the 46% who favor IMPEACHMENT of Georgie and the 58% who favor IMPEACHING Dickie, et cetera and so on and so forth....}}}

[...pounding head on keyboard...]

Sparrow: Watch the Allstar game tonight. There is a srprise banner being flown from a plane that should put a smile on your face, although since Fox is sponsoring the game it will be interesting whether they show it.

Posted by: Bubba at July 10, 2007 01:10 PM

Fox will prob show the banner that says "Jesus Loves You"... and splice applause audio over it.

High & Inside

Bush seeks parade from stampede

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- When you're facing a stampede, you try to jump ahead of the mob and call it a parade. That's what President Bush will be trying to do at a town hall-style meeting Tuesday in Cleveland -- putting the best face on Republican defections over Iraq.

As an increasing number of Republican senators break with the president on the war and say they want large numbers of U.S. troops to start coming home, he will essentially say, "I'm for that too!"

Senior officials expect the president to repeat what he's said before, which is that of course he would like to get to a point where the U.S. can soon start troop withdrawals -- but with major caveats. The president contends there first needs to be more progress in Iraq on two fronts, security on the ground and political reconciliation within the Iraqi government.

So this is not really a new policy or strategy, it's more like a new-and-improved way of framing the same message of patience.

more...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/10/otsc.henry/index.html

Posted by: NonnyO at July 10, 2007 01:09 PM

Pope Adolph the Worst, Not Z

Posted by: Bubba at July 10, 2007 01:10 PM

Thanks for the info. I'm probably at work at that point so unless it's posted online, I may not see it.

Or maybe as monkey said, Fox will show something else instead like their plane with "Have a" and the tail end of the other one, "peach"...
(followed by overpriced markedup peaches in the stands.)

Bubba
I heard about the banner.
I will keep quiet.

You know, speaking of prostitutes, or .. ahem .. escorts - you know the guy who "serviced" (massaged, did meth with, whatever) that megachurch guy in Colorado? That escort was interviewed (and massaged the reporter) in one of Portland's weeklies (someone sent me the newspaper clipping & I don't have it here - probably last week's "Portland Mercury").

Anyway, the escort claimed that the preacher paid him over $200/time in all ones and fives. Now where would a preacher get one dollar bills and five dollar bills, without his wife knowing, without having credit card trackbackability?

Why, from the collection plate at church!

The guy did time things nicely for the 2006 elections, right after the Foley scandal.

NonnyO
If the Pope says other churches aren't true Christians, there are plenty of fundamentalist Protestants who don't consider Catholics true Christians. They may stipulate that one has to be "born again" (with adult baptism) and that Catholics practice a form a idolatry, with their saints and emphasis on Mary rather than just Jesus. & the Catholics don't let others take Communion there, whereas the liberal Protestant church I grew up in would have no problem with a Catholic taking communion, & being born and baptised once as an infant was sufficient.

SO much for tolerance.

I like the "peace church" near my house, which right now posted on their marquee, "There is a time for benchmarks" and in 2003 had "Who would Jesus bomb?"

(CNN ) — Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani called Senator David Vitter’s apparent connection to the D.C. Madam “a personal issue”, but admitted that “some people disappoint you.”

Vitter, a Louisiana Republican, has endorsed Giuliani and serves as his southern regional chair. The two appeared together two weeks ago in New Orleans. Vitter admitted in a statement that his phone number was in the records of an escort service run by Deborah Jeane Palfrey.

Giuliani was asked about the admission after a town hall meeting in Concord, New Hampshire on Tuesday morning. He noted he had not spoken to Vitter and that “it’s too early to tell” if he will leave the campaign position. ”I believe it’s a personal issue,” he said. “We’ll have to hear from Senator Vitter.”

Last month, Giuliani’s South Carolina chairman resigned after he was indicted on drug charges. Giuliani insists he should not be judged based on the behavior of certain individuals associated with his campaign or mayoral administration.

“If you look at all the people I’ve appointed, a thousand or so, sure, some of them have problems,“ he said. “The vast majority were outstanding. You couldn’t accomplish the things I’ve accomplished without outstanding people. Some people are flawed, but the percentage is no greater than other people would have encountered. People look at this in the big picture.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/07/10/giuliani-on-vitter-some-people-disappoint-you/

CNN just reran a major portion of what Micheal Moore said last night, followed up by guppity on tape 'admitting' he had basically lied about a number (It was a TRANSCRIPTION mistake, ummhmmm)..

And then the thing calling herself a woman and a news caster says that we can catch part two of Micheal Moore 'ranting and raving'... if we can 'stomach it'.

She makes me gag like I'm sicko or sumthin.

...political reconciliation within the Iraqi government.
So this is not really a new policy or strategy, it's more like a new-and-improved way of framing the same message of patience.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/10/otsc.henry/index.html
Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 01:22 PM

The only "political reconciliation" Georgie and Dickie want is for the Iraqi government to vote in favor of their dictated Iraqi constitution that hands over the control of Iraqi oil fields to US oil corporations....

"Patience," my arse...! I wanna see some perp walks and impeachment proceedings result from these "investigative" committee hearings... and SOON...! I'm not gettin' any younger and I'd like to live long enough to see genuine justice done in *our* names....

Posted by: not my president at July 10, 2007 02:59 PM

I "only" want religion to go back to what it used to be: a personal choice, practiced in people's personal lives, if they so choose... and a return to absolute "separation of church and state" like the Founding Fathers intended (and the department of religion, aka 'faith based charities' DE-funded, and the executive order that created it nullified and/or repealed - there is NO reason for ANY religious institution to get US taxpayer dollars for ANY reason whatsoever).

Dean Baker | Fixing Health Care: Not Government vs. Market
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071007L.shtml
Dean Baker writes for Truthout: "With 'SiCKO' rallying popular support for universal health care coverage, defenders of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries are shifting into high gear with their scare tactics. The key to their efforts is to frighten people about the prospect of the government managing their health care."

Gonzales Was Told of FBI Violations
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071007J.shtml
John Solomon of the Washington Post reports: "As he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act two years ago, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales assured lawmakers that the FBI had not abused its potent new terrorism-fighting powers. 'There has not been one verified case of civil liberties abuse,' Gonzales told senators on April 27, 2005. Six days earlier, the FBI sent Gonzales a copy of a report that said its agents had obtained personal information that they were not entitled to have. It was one of at least half a dozen reports of legal or procedural violations that Gonzales received in the three months before he made his statement to the Senate intelligence committee, according to internal FBI documents released under the Freedom of Information Act."

HAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHA!!

I knew it.

Senator David Vitter caught with a hooker, for a SECOND time

You probably heard about Louisiana Senator and local hardcore rightwinger David Vitter's phone number showing up in the call log of a supposed DC madam yesterday. He admitted (through a spokesman) that he had 'sinned' and had been forgiven by his wife and hoped to be forgiven by Christ. What the articles on this are neglecting to mention is... this is not the first time he has been found out as not the family candidate. Hypocrite Vitter was accused of an extramarital affair in 1999 with a New Orleans prostitute, Wendy Cortez. Wendy Cortez contacted former Governor Treen's office during the 2002 campaign for governor that year, because she was unhappy he was claiming to be a family values candidate and cheating on his wife with her.

http://www.bloggingneworleans.com/2007/07/09/senator-vitter-caught-with-a-hooker-for-a-second-time/

I knew I had heard his name mentioned with hers I just couldn't remember where.

Posted by: Bubba at July 10, 2007 01:10 PM

If you watch this event, will you please post what the banner says or a link to a picture of the banner...?

I don't do sports in person or on TeeVee, so I'll miss it if it's relevant to any political topics that have set blogland ablaze with comments for the last few weeks.

Thanx...! :-)

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 03:59 PM

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAA...!

A SECOND time, eh?

I'm surprised his wife hasn't Bobbitized him by now....!

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAAAAAA......!

HOLY CRAP!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

As the Sen. David Vitter news has made huge waves today, Big Head DC is again hearing from reliable sources that Vice President Dick Cheney used the escort Pamela Martin & Associates escort service while married to Mrs. Lynne Cheney. We can confirm that phone numbers from Halliburton, his former employer, are showing up in the records released by “DC Madam” Jeane Palfrey. Sources are also saying that his exploits may have been quite “kinky” in nature.

http://bigheaddc.com/2007/07/10/dick-jeane-plot-thickens/

OMG IM VOMITING AND GIGGLING!!!!!!!!!!

HEHEHE ICK! GAG! NASTY!

What kind of NASTY SKANK do you have to be to willingly have kinky sex with Dick Freaking Cheney???!!

There is not enough money on this earth and personally my opinion of hookers has been lowered just thinking about it.

(CNN ) — Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani called Senator David Vitter’s apparent connection to the D.C. Madam “a personal issue”, but admitted that “some people disappoint you.”

...

“If you look at all the people I’ve appointed, a thousand or so, sure, some of them have problems,“ he said. “The vast majority were outstanding. You couldn’t accomplish the things I’ve accomplished without outstanding people. Some people are flawed, but the percentage is no greater than other people would have encountered. People look at this in the big picture.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/07/10/giuliani-on-vitter-some-people-disappoint-you/

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 03:19 PM

THIS from the man who moved into the Mayor's house with his GIRLFRIEND after telling his WIFE he was divorcing her on the friggin' NEWS?????????????????/

Ohh never mind....

Off to finish laundry....

muttering, fuming, shaking in rage, breathing to calm down.................

What kind of NASTY SKANK do you have to be to willingly have kinky sex with Dick Freaking Cheney???!!

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 04:18 PM

The Lynne Cheney type, silly.

Live Free or Die Hard

Posted by: NonnyO at July 10, 2007 03:55 PM

Thank you. Faith-based initiatives must end.

This is why I've been ranting so much against the Roberts Supreme Court, and its corporate sponsor Toyota.

HEHEHE ICK! GAG! NASTY!
Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 04:06 PM
Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 04:18 PM

OMFG!!! I had to get a barf bucket to my computer desk just thinking about that!!!
~~~~~~~~~~

Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani called Senator David Vitter’s apparent connection to the D.C. Madam “a personal issue”, but admitted that “some people disappoint you.”
muttering, fuming, shaking in rage, breathing to calm down.................
Posted by: karen at July 10, 2007 04:39 PM

There is an echo chamber in my head... Clinton's BJ was a "personal affair," too... but the neoCons spent millions (or was it billions?) of dollars prosecuting him and trying to impeach him for lying to Congress about his "personal affair" that insulted and offended no one but his wife and daughter...! If turnabout is fair play, then Dickie should be able to be impeached for being a lying adulterer, too, but worse: he paid for sex (but who on earth would disrespect and hate herself so much she'd have sex with a creepy greaseball goon like Dickie?)... eh?

Long, deep cleansing breaths... mutter, mutter, mutter.....

Aaaaaarrgh!!!!!!!!!!

Lynne Cheney reminds me of one of those crude biker chicks that revels in the status of being their 'lady', living up to their standards.

Yet what she never fails to grasp is the widespread acknowledgement of the low standards of bikers.

Another aircraft carrier headed over toward Iran
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/07/10/africa/ME-GEN-Gulf-US-Navy.php

I think back in the early days, Lynne Cheney must have had to do quite alot of research for the novel she wrote.
http://www.whitehouse.org/administration/sisters.asp

Panel moves to cut off funds to Cheney
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/07/10/ap3900916.html

It's closin' time - cut off the supply. Time for our "leaders" to join the tabloid trash.

Firing Back
Bush: ‘Military people’ will decide troop levels
President refuses to succumb to call for pullout from politicians, citizens

Updated: 33 minutes ago
AP

CLEVELAND - President Bush, facing new pressure to start bringing U.S. troops home from Iraq, said Tuesday he won’t consider it until hearing a fresh assessment from his top commander there this fall.

“That’s what the American people expect. They expect for military people to come back and tell us how the military operations are going,” Bush said. “And that’s the way I’m going to play it as commander in chief.”

‘We just started’
Bush, though, said he won’t be swayed.

“We just started. We got all the troops there a couple of weeks ago,” Bush told the Greater Cleveland Partnership, a coalition of Northeast Ohio companies.

Bush’s comments came as the White House scrambled to respond to growing opposition to the war.

“I wouldn’t ask a mother or a dad — I wouldn’t put their son in harm’s way if I didn’t believe this was necessary for the security of the United States and the peace of the world,” Bush said. “I strongly believe it, and I strongly believe we’ll prevail.”

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19691238/

No comment

“I wouldn’t ask a mother or a dad — I wouldn’t put their son in harm’s way if I didn’t believe this was necessary for the security of the United States and the peace of the world,” Bush said. “I strongly believe it, and I strongly believe we’ll prevail.”

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 06:19 PM

Except he still refuses to answer Cindy Sheehan's question, "For what noble cause did my son die?"

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 06:23 PM

That tard couldn't answer a question if he wanted to.

Oh, I'm sorry, was that negative Bush-bashing?

Tough noogies.

I am an expert on matters of U.S. health care, medicine, and policy, and am also a patient. SICKO, while perhaps not the most scientific of analyses, makes a compelling argument for change. But implementing a universal plan would no doubt entail limits on costs/pricing to industry, that they will fight tooth and nail. It would also reshape the operations of payors (insurance), contracting, utilization, and record keeping. Many physician groups and hospitals would welcome the change, while many mfrs would not. Our current system is harmed by fraud, QA failures, and denial of care. I do not see how universal care would address QA failures in the near term.

As a consumer, I have extraordinary experiences as a patient - 5 brain surgeries for CNS shunt from 1992 to present, author of FDA petitions, advisory documents, pioneer of AI technologies, research, and now public speaker. I directed my 1998 surgery when the best in America couldn't figure it out, with technology I invented.

It we put our hearts and minds to it, I believe there is nothing we cannot accomplish.

Stephen

“I wouldn’t ask a mother or a dad — I wouldn’t put their son in harm’s way if I didn’t believe this was necessary for the security of the United States and the peace of the world,” Bush said. “I strongly believe it, and I strongly believe we’ll prevail.”

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 06:19 PM

Except he still refuses to answer Cindy Sheehan's question, "For what noble cause did my son die?"

Posted by: sparrow at July 10, 2007 06:23 PM

...Might I add...

He hasn't asked his own children, his own nieces and nephews, friends children to sacrifice their lives for our security.

That's how you know it's bunk.

Former surgeon general says he was muzzled
Claims Bush administration kept him from speaking on controversial issues

WASHINGTON - The first U.S. surgeon general appointed by President George W. Bush accused the administration on Tuesday of political interference and muzzling him on key issues like embryonic stem cell research.

"Anything that doesn't fit into the political appointees' ideological, theological or political agenda is ignored, marginalized or simply buried," Dr. Richard Carmona, who served as the nation's top doctor from 2002 until 2006, told a House of Representatives committee.

"The problem with this approach is that in public health, as in a democracy, there is nothing worse than ignoring science, or marginalizing the voice of science for reasons driven by changing political winds. The job of surgeon general is to be the doctor of the nation, not the doctor of a political party," Carmona added.

Carmona said Bush administration political appointees censored his speeches and kept him from talking out publicly about certain issues, including the science on embryonic stem cell research, contraceptives and his misgivings about the administration's embrace of "abstinence-only" sex education.

Carmona's replacement
Carmona's comments came two days before a Senate committee is due to hold a hearing on Bush's nomination of Dr. James Holsinger as his successor. The administration allowed Carmona to finish his term as surgeon general last year without a replacement in place.

Gay rights activists and several leading Democrats have criticized Holsinger for what they see as "anti-gay" writings, but the White House has defended him as well qualified.

U.S. surgeons general in the past have issued influential reports on subjects including smoking, AIDS and mental health.

"Political interference with the work of the surgeon general appears to have reached a new level in this administration," said Rep. Henry Waxman, a California Democrat who chairs the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee to which Carmona testified.

"The public expects that a surgeon general will be immune from political pressure and be allowed to express his or her professional views based on the best available science," he said.

Carmona said he was politically naive when he took the job, but became astounded at the partisanship and manipulation he witnessed as administration political appointees hemmed him in.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19697182/from/RS.5/

Can we kill these bastards yet?

Happiness Is A Warm Gun
by The Beatles

She's not a girl who misses much
Do do do do do do do do, oh yeah
She's well acquainted with the touch of the velvet hand
Like a lizard on a window pane
The man in the crowd with the multicoloured mirrors
On his hobnail boots
Lying with his eyes while his hands are busy
Working overtime
A soap impression of his wife which he ate
And donated to the National Trust

Down
I need a fix cos I'm going down
Down to the bits that I left uptown
I need a fix cos I'm going down

Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun
Mother Superior jump the gun

Happiness is a warm gun (Happiness bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, mama (Happiness bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
When I hold you in my arms (Oo-oo oh yeah)
And I feel my finger on your trigger (Oo-oo oh yeah)
I know no one can do me no harm (Oo-oo oh yeah)
Because happiness is a warm gun, mama (Happiness bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm gun, yes it is (Happiness bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Happiness is a warm, yes it is, gun (Happiness bang, bang, shoot, shoot)
Well, don't you know happiness is a warm gun, mama? (Happiness is a warm gun, yeah)

Get this!!! Dick just got screwed! That's MY Senator who helped screw him!!!

Senate panel cuts off funds for Cheney’s office.

A Senate appropriations panel chaired by Sen. Richard Durbin, D-Ill., refused to fund $4.8 million in the vice president’s budget until Cheney’s office complies with parts of an executive order governing its handling of classified information.

At issue is a requirement that executive branch offices provide data on how much material they classify and declassify. That information is to be provided to the Information Security Oversight Office at The National Archives.

Cheney’s office, with backing from the White House, argues that the offices of the president and vice president are exempt from the order because they are not executive branch ”agencies.”

The funding cut came as the appropriations panel approved 5-4 along party lines a measure funding White House operations, the Treasury Department and many smaller agencies.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/10/senate-panel-cuts-off-funds-for-cheneys-office

And then there's this one...

Bush performs brain surgery
President Bush made a 20-minute stop at the Cleveland Clinic's Lerner Research Center, where he performed a simulated brain surgery.

Standing before a rubber replica of a human brain, the president moved a hand-control that helps teach doctors how to implant deep brain stimulation devices. He did so under the watchful eye of neurosurgeon Ali Rezai.

The president was briefly interrupted by laughter induced by top-advisor Karl Rove, who was entertaining several reporters and White House officials nearby.

Check here for the DU snarky (& very funny) comments about this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2911997

Cheney impeachment bill gains yet another co-sponsor

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Cheney_impeachment_bill_gains_another_cosponsor_0710.html

OMG I just had to laugh on this one

BATON ROUGE – In the wake of U.S. Sen. David Vitter’s apology after his phone number turned up in an escort service's call list, a member of the Republican State Central Committee called for him to resign.
Vincent Bruno of Kenner said today that Vitter should resign “for his own good, the good of the party and the good of his family.” If he doesn’t resign, Vitter should “join the Democratic Party where they think that kind of behavior is OK.”

Bruno said Vitter’s actions violate the Republican Party’s “Family Values” stance but he doesn’t expect the party leadership to do anything about it. “We had David Duke and couldn’t do anything about it.”

http://www.theadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070710/NEWS01/70710005

From that same link...

“They think more of the party than the right thing to do,” he said. “If they’re not going to enforce family values, they ought to take it out of the vocabulary.

“We’re the party of hypocrites,” he said. “Vote for us and we’ll lie to you, we’ll engage prostitutes and we’ll cheat on our wives.”

Bruno said he puts little stock in Vitter’s apology.

“It’s baloney,” he said. “He only fessed up to it when he got caught.”

“He needs to resign,” Bruno said. “There’s more there; I know so.”

Hey, I like this Bruno fella even if he has no clue what morals democrats do adhere too.

If he doesn’t resign, Vitter should “join the Democratic Party where they think that kind of behavior is OK.”

http://www.theadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070710/NEWS01/70710005

Oh go f*ck yourself.

Seriously.

U.S. warns of increased risk of summer attacks
No specific terror threat, officials say, but al-Qaida may be 'rebuilding'

WASHINGTON - U.S. counterterror officials are warning of an increased risk of an attack this summer, given al-Qaida's apparent interest in summertime strikes and increased al-Qaida training in the Afghan-Pakistani border region.

On Tuesday, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told the editorial board of The Chicago Tribune that he had a "gut feeling" about a new period of increased risk.

He based his assessment on earlier patterns of terrorists in Europe and intelligence he would not disclose.

"Summertime seems to be appealing to them," Chertoff said in his discussion with the newspaper about terrorists. "We worry that they are rebuilding their activities."

Other U.S. counterterrorism officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, shared Chertoff's concern and said that al-Qaida and like-minded groups have been able to plot and train more freely in the tribal areas along the Afghan-Pakistani border in recent months. Osama bin Laden and his top deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, are believed to be hiding in the rugged region.

"The threat coming out of there is very real, even if there aren't a lot of specifics attached to it," one of the officials said.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19700127/

"There are some who feel like -- that the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is, bring 'em on." - George W. Bush, Jul. 02, 2003

Hey Monkey....

Do you need a hug...?

To hell with what they think.

Seriously.

I'll never refuse a hug...

Bring it on.

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 07:58 PM

Or a beer... ;-)

Dedicated to Vitter (yeah, I know the "house" was in DC, but when I found out where Vitter was from, the lyrics to this song just would not leave my brain, drat it...):

The Animals - House Of The Rising Sun

There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one

My mother was a tailor
She sewed my new bluejeans
My father was a gamblin' man
Down in New Orleans

Now the only thing a gambler needs
Is a suitcase and trunk
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on a drunk

------ organ solo ------

Oh mother tell your children
Not to do what I have done
Spend your lives in sin and misery
In the House of the Rising Sun

Well, I got one foot on the platform
The other foot on the train
I'm goin' back to New Orleans
To wear that ball and chain

Well, there is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
And it's been the ruin of many a poor boy
And God I know I'm one

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 07:58 PM

(((((LOTZA HUGS)))))

You want a real thrill,

Try The House Of The Rising Sun, sang by...

Nina Simone.

She changes the words to sing the female side of it. Very haunting.

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 07:47 PM

Same ol' bag of fearmongering codswallop....

Gotta get sheeple to respond to the fear meme like Pavlovian dogs so they'll go cower under their beds and watch False Snooze... ignore Dickster and Vitter stories, war crimes stories, the whisper of IMPEACHMENT that was mentioned on a Sunday bobblehead show.....

... et cetera and so on and so forth....

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 08:07 PM

Somewhere in my music collection I have a 45 rpm vinyl record of the song as The Animals sang it when I bought it.... that's the only version I can hear in my head - which also gives you some indication of how OLD I am.... ;-)

Actually no Nonny, it gives me no clue how old you are.

I am 33 and I recall that song perfectly. So do my children one of whom is only 6.

Down here, that song may as well be Louisianas anthem.

Georgia got Georgia.

And we got a song about a brothel. Even the kids sing it.

I've covered House of the Rising Sun about 50 different ways over the years with different bands, and the truth is, trying to cover it as The Animals did it is virtually impossible... even with a lot of beer, madame.

Beat Crazy

BTW, didn't Nina Simone die before I was ever born?

I did see Beverly Sills died the other day. How sad. What a grand talent that was.

I keep hearing about the Cleopatera thing but I will be damned if I can find it to see for myself.

I actually want to hear The House of the Rising Sun just once with no music at all and a deep female voice just slowly belting it out.

Now that would be groovy.

Great Versions of "(The) House of the Rising
Sun"

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Versions-quot-House-Rising/lm/R6H5D3RUJVONH

Michael Z. Jody says: "The song "(The) House of the Rising Sun" is beautiful, melancholic, poignant, and sad. It is about a brothel, and is narrated (usually by a girl, but not always) who was ruined therein. She is warning others that they will "spend their life in sheer misery" if they too become prostitutes.

Many artists have done versions of the song which was probably taken from an old English ballad, and is thought to have been adopted by a pair of Kentuckians named Georgia Turner and Bert Martin. The oldest recording by Clarence Ashley and Gwen Foster dates back to 1934, but numerous artists have covered it since. What follows are some of the greatest versions in my humble opinion."

Posted by: madame defarge at July 10, 2007 07:06 PM

ap[icgmq'powtj';lck'poekty'

HUH?!?!?!? I'm so shocked I can barely type!

This is only the committee, right? I see it made the AP, but wonder if it will make Lamestream Media Tee Vee and actually be broadcast to the sheeple who just *might* talk about it and jump on the "IMPEACH CHENEY" bandwagon, since Conyers mentioned on Sunday that 58% people polled favor IMPEACHING CHENEY.

Dare I light a candle of hope...?

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 08:19 PM

I was a teenager when the song came out. I'm old enough to be your mother or an older aunt....

Ohhhh, that sounds sobering for someone.

Embattled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales “faced a new firestorm on Tuesday sparked by a report he may have misled lawmakers in 2005 about civil liberty violations by the FBI.” Rep. Jerrold Nadler “called for the appointment of a Special Prosecutor to investigate the prima facie case that Gonzales provided false statements to Congress, noting that misleading Congress is a serious crime.”

“Attorney General Gonzales has shown an apparent reckless disregard for the rule of law and a fundamental lack of respect for the oversight responsibilities of Congress,” said Rep. Nadler. “The man entrusted with enforcing our nation’s laws must also abide by them — and Mr. Gonzales has apparently failed in that duty. Providing false, misleading or inaccurate statements to Congress is a serious crime, and the man who may have committed those acts cannot be trusted to investigate himself. A Special Prosecutor is necessary to investigate this and the countless other violations of the law apparently committed by this Executive Branch.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/10/embattled-attorney-general-alberto-gonzales/#comments

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/leahy-bush-bought-scooters-silence-with-commutation/
Leahy: Bush bought Scooter’s silence with Commutation

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/10/29/lousiana_race/index.html
There is a house in New Orleans
Rumors involving a prostitute and a secret alliance with neo-Nazi David Duke trail the Republican Senate candidate in Louisiana.
{{{Story dated October 29, 2004 - but points out David Vitter's unpleasant personality....}}}

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq
White House awaits September Iraq review

{{{I wonder how many more people will have died for the sake of lies for oil by September...? I wonder how Georgie and Dickie will re-word the same old propaganda lies to get more money for their illegal wars by then, which will only put us deeper in debt...?}}}

Nonny.

I don't consider my mother as 'old'.

Not yet anyway.

Posted by: NonnyO at July 10, 2007 08:32 PM

Light up (& smoke 'em if you've got 'em).

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 08:36 PM

IF Congress Critters DO SOMETHING about Gonzo's LIES and stonewalling ("I don't remember"), and stop just talking about it with that vague 'tsk, tsk, tsk' tone, then I'll believe Congress Critters are capable of doing more than mumbling into their collective beards like absent-minded professors who can't quite remember why they were 'elected.'

Heck, if Lamestream Media Tee Vee Snooze starts talking about any of this, starts asking tough questions for a change, there's an outside chance people in this country might (ONLY might!) wake up to the fact that we've been screwed without kisses since the December 2000 SCOTUS decision....

Look what that article Nonny posted says..The Salon article

"For most of the race, the better-known Treen led in the polls -- until the last week, when Vitter violated his pledge not to play dirty, John Treen said.

The Vitter campaign sent fliers to black voters stating that the racist David Duke was supporting his opponent. In fact, Treen had been an enemy of Duke and had tried to stop his rise in Louisiana GOP politics. "Dave Treen and I have absolutely no use for David Duke whatsoever," John Treen said. "He [Duke] tried to shake my hand once, and I said, 'I'm not going to shake your hand, you son of a bitch.' It's hypocritical to shake someone's hand if you consider them an enemy." But in what John Treen believes was a secret pact between Duke and Vitter, the former Ku Klux Klansman came out publicly for his nemesis, Treen.

The effect was to suppress the black vote. Amid low turnout, Vitter eked out a victory with 51 percent. Curiously, though, the New Orleans area precincts that had supported Duke in the earlier phase of the race went not for Treen -- whom the white supremacist had claimed to be supporting -- but for Vitter. That was evidence, John Treen claims, that Duke's supporters had secretly been rounding up votes for Vitter.

On election night, no members of Louisiana's congressional delegation showed up to celebrate with their new colleague."

Son of a b*tch.

Informational Filtration Effect.

Do you know the damage one honest newspaper down here could do?

Posted by: Christy at July 10, 2007 08:22 PM

Christy - Hatshepsut is the queen you're talking about, since it's news about her that's made the news recently, yes? There was a discussion about her mummy and a History Channel show about finding her mummy last night on Charlie Rose.

http://www.charlierose.com/home

Click on this sentence:

A discussion about the mummy of Egyptian queen Hatshepsut

in the box on the upper right side of the page if the video player defaults to the first interview he had last night. The video is online. There will be a story of how it was determined the mummy is definitely hers through both CT scans and a mtDNA test - and a tooth was the key to the whole thing...! Pretty cool....

Here is something you may not know about Ancient Egypt. In Hatshepsuts time.

Queens were not legally allowed to build temples or monuments. As you know, the pharaoh was not only a king but a living god. A queen had no authority to build anything at all.

It is almost certainly why the queen, became a king.

Then she appointed herself pharaoh.

It is the only way she could legally get away with it.

It explains more about her than the power hungry throne theif they are making her out to be.

"Amid Vitter's denials and the reluctance of his accuser to go public, no newspapers in Louisiana reported on the allegations."

I am telling you.

Something freaky freaky freaky about that.

I just realized something.

Oncall gave me this phrase... I think it was Oncall. Anyways...

I think there is little doubt that any 'informational filter effect' is being caused and controlled deliberately.

BUT, if you were to try to control it, you would literally have to do that from the middle not the edges.

I do not think they are as worried about outside news coming in as they are about inside news leaking OUT.

If you controlled the press in the deep south, you could control the entire nations flow of information.

Can we kill these bastards yet?

Posted by: monkey at July 10, 2007 06:45 PM

If you mean, by "bastards," Republican sodomites who have sold out the LGBT movement (and far more, like nonwhites and straight women), then you may. After all, that's what the party platform calls for.

Here you go, Christy...Some news about your Vitter critter from The Hill...

Vitter hides as the Senate GOP circles its wagons
By Elana Schor and Sam Youngman
July 11, 2007

Sen. David Vitter (R-La.) was Capitol Hill’s invisible man yesterday, lying low even as his ties to the notorious “D.C. Madam” threatened to become a political crisis for the conservative lawmaker.

Vitter acknowledged late Monday that he had contacted the high-end escort service of Deborah Jeane Palfrey before his 2004 Senate campaign. But Vitter’s apology hardly quelled the controversy, prompting Hustler publisher Larry Flynt to claim credit for unmasking Vitter as part of his million-dollar search for congressional sex scandals.

Normally a fixture at the GOP’s weekly policy lunch, Vitter was nowhere to be found yesterday, and most sources believed the freshman senator remained in Louisiana to avoid the press onslaught. Vitter’s office did not return repeated calls for comment on his presence in Palfrey’s phone records, which were publicly released last Thursday.

Meanwhile, Flynt touted the conservative’s confession in a statement that claimed his investigators were the first to link Vitter to Palfrey. Flynt said through his agent that Hustler contacted Vitter for a response Monday at 5 p.m., only to see the senator’s office release a statement to the Associated Press (AP) “in an attempt to get ahead of the story.”

Playing up Vitter’s strong defense of anti-gay marriage legislation, Flynt crowed that his “ongoing investigation into the dirty secrets of prominent elected officials has exposed another hypocrite.”

http://tinyurl.com/38abga = The Hill ( http://thehill.com/ )

Hear! Hear! mme d. Ditto otter. From now on - I look to the future. Bright and peaceful. If we all concentrate hard enough, it will happen.

Posted by: woz at July 9, 2007 10:01 PM

@@@@@

Sorry, this sounds too much like fantasyland a la "Morning in America" and Ronald Reagan. I look at it more coldly and much less optimistic.

The future will almost certainly be (barring a miracle of enormous proportions):

Two failed states in the middle east - Afghanistan and Iraq

Civil wars in these two states with more bloodshed

Islamic extremism still strong and perhaps growing in the Middle East and in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The "struggle" against Islamic extremism continuing in Europe and the United States for years to come.

The culture divide/ political divided in the United States continuing whipped up by the Christian righting, talk radio and the rightwing, demogogic media.

Economic troubles will continue to plague the nation - Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, prescription drugs - all taxing the federal budget...

Ralph, I'm not even that optimistic.

Civil wars will spread, nieghboring countries make their move all determined to get their hands on the worlds sweetest oil spot.

The entire region slides into chaos and World War Three ensues.

It will be fought with suicide bombers.

No wonder he could not anticipate it.

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”

What was it Ghandi said?

We must become the change we want to see.

And, attributed to Buddha:

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world.

Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.

A little distraction:
Giant squid washes up on Tassie beach
July 11, 2007 - 12:34PM

A giant squid washed up on the shores of Tasmania has scientists in a frenzy.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Giant-squid-washes-up-on-Tassie-beach/2007/07/11/1183833569574.html

Christy/Monkey:

Hah! I've sung that song drunk off my posterior in former Soviet "Muslim" Republics so top that! And lived to tell the tale I might add....

Nothing compared to Biker Bars back in the days before I got an education; back when I played bass....

"There is
"A house
"In New Orleans...."

Chuck in Houston

"Well I'm Southbound baby
"Well I'm coming home to you

"Well I'm Southbound baby
"Well I'm coming home to you

"Got that old lonesome feeling
"They sometimes call the blues."

Allman Brothers Band

(Otter: I hope that is sufficient attribution for the purposes of intellectual property.)

Chuck in Houston

Brothers and Sisters that is

Chuck...

I can not think of a single thing that tops that.

I just realized my life must suck.

And Woz....

Love can not stop a war.

It never has before. It can not now.

Thinking happy thoughts will not distract from the fact that literally World War Three is unfolding right before our eyes.

Frankly, the only way I can see to avoid it is impeaching george w bush, and let the trial show how badly the world was duped.

And we all know it ain't exactly on the table at the moment. Until it is none of us can afford too much opitimisim.

Lord I was born a Rambling Man.

Just trying to make a living and doing the best I can.

When it comes time for leaving
I hope you'll understand.

That I was born a Rambling Man.

Christy:

I'm sure you can top that! I know I can. Life never sucks unless we say so!

Chuck in Houston

Ok Chuck, I can top that.

Once in Morgan City Louisiana, a hurricane was brewwing, all the off shore oil rigs were evacuated and I wound up in a bar with 2 other women and 540 men.

And I sang House of the Rising Sun to them.

They were throwing so much money at me it looked like it was raining it.

Chuck
My husband got drunk and sang "Jambalaya" in the wrong key in a hotel in Thailand, with a live band. Luckily, I didn't see it.

Christy, I can't afford to worry about it and feel angry. I've been in and out of hospital for 22 years now. Right now I'm hanging by a thread. And I truly believe that love can stop wars. And it has done so in the past. But, you're right. Wo/Man has been fighting since s/he was first put on the planet. At your age I'd have fought and raged too, Christy. I've discovered, the hard way, that the only one who hurts by my anger and rage is me. So, I don't do it any more.

But, that's my way. Not yours or anyone else's way. Just mine. And I prefer to put out possibilities of ways to achieve rather than berate the things that cost. Against this lot I have no suggestions other than impeachment. And that's probably not going to happen. Or for the world to stand up and demand the children of the administration head off to the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan. And we all know that's not going to happen.

John Howard said yesterday that he knows for a fact that America is staying in Iraq. He knows it! And nothing will change, he said!

Darlin I never said you must be tense or angry abut it. Although the bitterness is hard to avoid, I simply pointed out you should not be TOO optimistic.

It is simply inevitable it will lead to even greater disappointment and more bitterness.

I think what woz is saying is that some of us have to have hope -- even if it's only a modicum of hope -- that things will get better...someday.

At least that's what keeps me going.

Well, I must admit I no longer suffer from hope.

I am, however, desperate to believe we can simply control the damage at this point.

I still think we can, but we don't have long before it spins entirely out of control.

Data on Americans MIned for Terror Risk
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1152AP_FBI_Data_Mining.html?source=mypi

Oops .. another bummer post

Re coping .. I use one prayer - The Serenity Prayer

NMP:

I may have been drunk, but I am sure I did not sing off-key! Some things are simply not done in impolite society.

Chuck in Houston

nmp - laughing here. Serenity would be good. Sometimes - Mostly, I'm glad I live alone. I don't have to have the tv on LOUD. And I have the remote right next to me. I can turn Bush and Howard and Tony Snow et al way down. And since I'm always at the computer I don't even have to look at them while they tell their whoppers.

Right now Howard is in full-on-campaign mode. His slogan - TRUST! That is the funniest thing anyone has come up with in a very long time.

Serenity is good.

What was it Ghandi said?

We must become the change we want to see.

And, attributed to Buddha:

@@@@@@@

Ghandi was dealing with the British who had a sense of justice and duty and decency. Thus, the British could be persuaded and shamed into doing the right things by Ghandis methods.

Bush, the Neo-Cons and the Righwingers in America have none of these qualities that the British had (and still have). At best the American rightwing is amoral and at worst immoral. We are dealing with a kind of rightwing/fascist ideology reminiscent of the Nazis and Hitler, in my opinion. You cannot fight this kind of evil with kindness and good will, I am afraid....

Christy:

You've got me whooped. If I had ever been on stage with one other guy and an audience of 540 women, I doubt I would be around to talk about it. At least I hope not as that would have been bad for my image. Probably would have had to manufacture an incident or something.

Chuck in Houston

Ralpheh:

This is just one dumb American speaking, but in my humble opinion there is no reason I have ever seen in my life to idealize Britain over anybody else, including us.

Chuck in Houston

At least we're democrats.

On other analogy:

How many riots, marches, sit-ins and protests were held before America was finally convinced that the Vietnam war was stupid and not working??? As I recall the '60's were a tumultuous time - a nation divided, with unrest, distrust and violence. Even after Nixon was elected, there were the Kent State shootings... as Nixon attempted to widen the war to Cambodia and Laos.

Ralpheh:

And what exactly did Ghandi do that was so great? Is India such a great place today? Brits have some shame,but not much, and what really saves them is their sense of humor.

Chauvanistically Yours,

Chuck in Houston, Texas, USA

This is just one dumb American speaking, but in my humble opinion there is no reason I have ever seen in my life to idealize Britain over anybody else, including us.

Chuck in Houston

Posted by: Chuck at July 11, 2007 12:34 AM

@@@@@

Not idealizing - I am drawing a distinction between British rule and Nazi/German domination. They were very different.

Ralpheh:

Don't forget what the Brits did to Ireland or how they instituted slavery in English-speaking America or that whole WWI thing. The list is long....

Chuck in Houston

Ralpheh:

The Nazis are a whole different deal. Us and the Brits (and the Russians) kicked their rear-ends around the block, thank goodness.

My dad for one volunteered the day after Pearl Harbor. Together with his brother (my uncle).

Chuck in Houston

This is just one dumb American speaking, but in my humble opinion there is no reason I have ever seen in my life to idealize Britain over anybody else, including us.

Chuck in Houston

Posted by: Chuck at July 11, 2007 12:34 AM

@@@@@

This is one, disappointed, shocked and shamed American. Who would have thought that this country is filled with such ignorance, misplaced arrogance, bigotry and intolerance???

I would rather be in Great Britain, Denmark, Sweden, Germany or even France. These folks seem more reasonable than Americans..

Ralpheh
Even France? I'm going there for the 10th time and I'd live there in a heartbeat. They have problems of their own but I love it.

Ralpheh:

As for the Europeans, in my experience, they are at least as racist as Americans, usually more. Plus, they don't ever step up to the plate these days, other than to whine and criticize. But believe me, folks in other countries are at least as competent as us when it comes to ignorance, arrogance, bigotry and intolerance.

Chuck in Houston

NMP:

And don't even get me started on France. They have played an extremely negative role, as I see it, in the Former Soviet Union, in the Former Yugoslavia, in Haiti, in Lebanon, and no doubt in other places, plus they got us into Vietnam.

Sure it's a great place. Paris has a great metro. Great Museums. Luxemburg Gardens. All that stuff. Great health care. But the moral high ground? Not that I have ever seen.

Chuck in Houston

Chuck
That is quite a generalization. Both Europe and America are very polarized, with supporters of people like LePen and Buchanan to people like Royal and Kucinich. There are all sorts of people. The expectation for a high school graduate in the public schools is much higher in France, where Le Bac is at the same level as an Associate of Arts degree here. It's not my idea that it turned out like this. Also they have preschool for all starting at age three with master's level teachers. Taxes are higher yes, and they may soon lose this and their long vacations, early retirement and 35 hour work week.

There are alot of good things about America but it is shameful that we have approximately 45 million uninsured, including many college graduates.

My sister is a mental patient who is a ward of the state and she just broke someone's glasses. "The team" called my mother who is on Social Security and demanded that she pay. I am getting a lawyer.

In poor countries like Mexico and Thailand, families must pay for the food and other needs for family members who are in prison or an institution sometimes. In America it is quite illegal. We no longer are allowed to make mental patients work on farms as slaves.

I am disgusted and patriotism = nationalism.

Chuck
I think that we learned our imperialism from Europe. Plantations, colonialism, slavery - lots of nice ideas we got from them. The African continent is still reeling from being screwed over by Europeans who wanted their resources. European mentality is about the last thing I will stand up for.

That said, nowdays there are alot of civilized, concerned people there who did not support the futile wars and they are not all racist or environment-polluting. Alot of what I learned about Africa I learned in France. Chirac is creating one of the best museums of indiginous art and culture on the planet.

We are another fallen Empire, as are they. Only by banding together as the EU do they have a chance as a "superpower" but there are many obstacles as they can't decide about Turkey, can't approve a Constitution, only superficially stick together. On the other hand, they have a unified currency and easy work and travel system within the Union.

They did start Vietnam (France) and dumped quite a few Algerians into Le Seine.

I love Paris though.

Chuck

The French didn't "get us into Vietnam." They formed a phony coalition like we did for Iraq and we sent over "advisors."

That is probably another idea we got from them.

We also gave them a great idea - the revolution and the Constitution. Our Constitutions are almost identical.

I've been to the cafe where Ben Franklin used to hang out, on the Left Bank.

I met some British chavs heading to Vegas on a plane. They were Nascar fans and Iraq war supporters. They said, "Boy, you sure saved our ass in WW2." I was cracking up.

NMP:

My point isn't that we are good and the French are bad. My point is that the proper point of reference is what is right, and in this respect it is not useful to pretend that the French, or anybody else, has some kind of inside track, especially when the facts speak quite differently.

Chuck in Houston

I am going to take the liberty of changing the subject, since we're off topic of the thread header anyway (not that I haven't been getting rave review emails of "Sicko" all day).

This came from an immigrant to America from Indonesia who was glad to move here but soon realized a few "patterns." Keep these lists in mind this week as we move into this week's Congressional discussion r/t Iraq.

Who are the true patriots and who are the spinmasters?
Pattern Here?

Democrats:

·Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
·David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
·Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
·Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army
journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
·Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
·Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
·John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V,
Purple Hearts.
·Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
·Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star,
Vietnam.
·Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
·Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.
·Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
·Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven
campaign ribbons.
·Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze
Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
·Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star
and Legion of Merit.
·Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
·Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze
Star with Combat V.
·Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
·Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
·Chuck Robb: Vietnam
·Howell Heflin: Silver Star
·George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
·Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.
·Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
·Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
·John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
·Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul
Wallenberg.

Republicans -- and these are the guys sending people to war:
·Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
·Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
·Tom Delay: did not serve.
·Roy Blunt: did not serve.
·Bill Frist: did not serve.
·Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
·Rick Santorum: did not serve.
·Trent Lott: did not serve.
·John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
·Jeb Bush: did not serve.
·Karl Rove: did not serve.
·Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked
Max Cleland's patriotism.
·Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
·Vin Weber: did not serve.
·Richard Perle: did not serve.
·Douglas Feith: did not serve.
·Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
·Richard Shelby: did not serve.
·Jon! Kyl: did not serve.
·Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
·Christopher Cox: did not serve.
·Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
·Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
·George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running
for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared
from duty.
·Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role making movies.
·B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
·Phil Gramm: did not serve.
·John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart
·and Distinguished Flying Cross.
·Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
·John M. McHugh: did not serve.
·JC Watts: did not serve.
·Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.
·Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
·Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
·George Pataki: did not serve.
·Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
·John Engler: did not serve.
·Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
·Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base. Pundits & Preachers
·Sean Hannity: did not serve.
·Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')
·Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
·Michael Savage: did not serve.
·George Will: did not serve.
·Chris Matthews: did not serve.
·Paul Gigot: did not serve.
·Bill Bennett: did not serve.
·Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
·John Wayne: did not serve.
·Bill Kristol: did not serve.
·Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
·Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
·Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
·Ralph Reed: did not serve.
·Michael Medved: did not serve.
·Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
·Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don't shoot back.)

NMP:

We did save British asses in WWII. And the French did get us into Vietnam.

Chuck in Houston

Chuck
I agree with you except for two things:

1. We have gone too much in the pro-business direction and away from public "safety nets" and Europe will soon follow us. We don't want to be a "welfare state" but it's getting to where we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater while pretending to be "pro-life."

2. We had the goodwill of the world after 9/11 and squandered it on an irrelevant (except to Halliburton and their ilk) war. I will not fault those European countries who refused to be sucked into it and ruin their economies and ignite their radicals into increased terrorism. I believe the "flypaper theory" has worked in reverse.

When it comes to polarization and controvery, inability to deal with influx of immigrants and many many other things, Europe has major problems, just as we do.

When it comes to racism and bigotry, you can say Europe has alot of it, as we do - but in MY experience, I've met very committed peace and justice activists and open-minded, thoughtful, informed people.

The best documentaries I've seen were while in Europe and the news coverage was more well-rounded. I could even watch Al-Jazeera English without satellite, no problemo. & Al-Jazeera is much more fair & balanced than people here are led to believe.

And in neither case is the legac a clear case of good-or-bad

NMP:

My judgements on European racism isn't much based on European media, which I don't follow much, but rather on dealings with Europeans, so my view is a bit subjective. On (1), I agree -- and that is my point -- Europe is following not leading. Step up to the plate and take a swing for a change! That's my line to them. On (2), I absolutely agree. But rather than having Europeans criticizing US leadershio, I'd like them to step up and show an example.

Chuck in Houston

NMP:

It's kind of like immigration in the US. Mark my words, that will be THE issue of the next several election cycles. But the problem isn't really here in the US. The problem is in Mexico. So we can't fix the problem in the US. It has to be fixed in Mexico.

Chuck in Houston

Chuck
I thought Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia were colonialized by the French in the late 1800s and abandoned to local rulers in the 1950s, though they were French puppets and that Thailand also was given back some territory. & then Vichy France let Japan use the Tonkin Gulf, as Nazi puppets, which greatly helped them, and then Japan tried to take over Vietnam but then surrendered after we bombed them and then France tried to butt in again but there was Ho Chi Minh. & we supported Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese in WW2, but then in the 50s, Vietnam was split into two parts, one part supported by China and Russia, the other by US, France and Britain. France relinquised Vietnam.

How did they get us "into" Vietnam? Didn't we get involved in order to counter Russia and China?

NMP:

And please point me to one US political leader that has said as much. I for one have never heard it said.

Chuck in Houston

NMP:

Give me a second on Vietnam....

Chuck
I don't think Europe is purposely following us - I think they're getting pulled into Globalization because of greedy leaders and CEOs.

You can't paint all Europe with one brush. Italy and Spain currently have left-leaning governments and France, Germany and even the Netherlands are starting to lean more to the right. That's one reason they can't get a Constitution for the EU approved.

I DO read European press. Every single day since 9/11/01. & British too. I get my news exclusively from the internet, newspapers and public radio. I have not watched tv since 1991 when I boycotted it because of the Gulf War coverage and didn't turn it back on.

I also base my impressions on Europeans I've met - I taught ESL for 15 years and had students from all over the world and then I've done as much travelling as I could, which is not nearly as much as I'd like. I admit I am drawn to bohemian and arts venues, so that may influence the type of person I meet. As far as I know, I probably meet the same type of person I meet on these liberal-leaning blogs! I think most of you would like most of them.

Chuck

As far as I'm concerned, I hope the immigration issue fragments the conservatives. My brother is foreman landscaper with Mexican immigrant crews (& some of questionable legality). He tells me that all the big operations are Republican-headed and they depend heavily on immigrants and then speak out both sides of their mouth and deny it.

We need at least two workers to every "boomer" retiree so we need all the workers we can get, especially if they are low wage. I don't see where it will be a defining issue as much as the war.

I see that those who got us into the war will leave with their tail between their legs (again) and try to take credit for getting us out, like the hypocrites they are.

Chuck

A political leader would admit WHY we went into Vietnam?

That would never happen, nor would it happen for Afghanistan or Iraq.

That is why Cheney's energy meetings were SECRET.

That is why Kissinger is still running free.

Maybe someone like Robert MacNamara could tell us, or maybe Richard Perle would tell us, if waterboarding was used on him.

Chuck

You are fun to argue with (or debate) and you're a rockin' bass player but I have to be up at 6 AM so I'll check in the morning.

Peace and out.

NMP:

My dealings with Europeans has mostly been in the area of business, predominately, but not exclusively, oil patch. I would not paint them all with one brush. But I will say I have heard more astoundlingly racist things from them than I have heard from any American, even my Grandma from West Virginai (Bless her Heart).

Chuck in Houston

NMP:

Guess I am late, but here goes.
As you know, today's Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the period before WWII were a colony of France -- French Indochina we used to call it.

This is where the majority thinking in Australia is right now.

Breaking with America
July 11, 2007

The Labor Party has an opportunity to enunciate a realistic alternative on Iraq, writes Bruce Grant.

LABOR will be doing Australia a service if it stays on course for the election with an exit strategy from Iraq.

Nothing as silly as getting the troops home by Christmas, but persisting with a policy that removes us militarily from Iraq, is sensible and sound from our national standpoint and provides an opportunity for some fresh thinking on the Middle East. Also, for some fresh thinking on the so-called "global war on terrorism". Finding an effective counter to terrorism is difficult enough without the encumbrance of Iraq, which has become a cause of terrorism, giving al-Qaeda new bases, new prestige, a new life.

As WWII drew to a close, the Truman adminstration wanted to support the "Gaulisit" side of French politics against the communists and socialists, which enjoyed a lot of popularity after the war as they were on the winning side.

So, in order to support the "Anti-Comununist" forces in France after WWII, which sort of means the anti-Blum anti-"Popular Front" politics of France in the 1930's, Truman supported the Guallist postition in colonies like French Indochina

My source on this is not great but it is "Bright Shining Lie," and it makes sense to me.

So, under Eisenhower, we supported the French attempt to retain Indochina as a colony (cf: Algeria), and armed them in this endeavour, and in the process became entangled, as Washington and Jefferson would have it, it a foreign adventure.

Chuck in Houston

Chuck
Just checking back after reading an email from a lesbian divorcee embroiled in a court battle over dog expenses - crazy stuff.

Anyway, thanks for info on Vietnam. I suppose given our antiCommie thrust back when I was a kid, we had to support the Gaullists. I don't think it follows, though, that we need to expect their support in every warmongering endeavor.

After all, in the last half century, the Japanese and Germans are diametrically opposed to what they were during WW2 and Israel has shifted quite a bit for foreign policy, as have we. So the rules change and the scary part to me is that rules no longer seem to be followed, whether based on logic or decency. Everything has to do with money money money.

Well here's something to get us all through the night (a glamour pose):

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushwgirl12.htm

Woz:

And you Aussies were all over this as well. Please tell me otherwise so I can argue with some Assies I know that fought in Vietnam!

Chuck in Houston

(PS to Ally: That goes for Koreans too)

Woz:

After all, this is your front yard. And I know that Australian companies make oodles of dollars (Australian) out of business in SE Asia, even if you (not personally; but collectively) don't want them immigrating into Australia.

Chuck in Red Neck Houston

Chuck - that's right - our bloody Liberal Party again (the right wingers of the political scene) engaged us in Vietnam. "All the Way with LBJ" was the slogan. Until the Labor party was voted into power and our troops were pulled out immediately. So, now we have to oust the Libs for getting us into Afghanistan and Iraq. Only way to do it is to install a Labor government.

And - I used to wonder why there were so many Aboriginal artefacts in French museums. We nearly were colonised by the French!!! Yikes.

I didn't see this happen (and it's news to me) but it's about the person who decided with the war in Iraq, she was NOT going to lead off the news with Paris Hilton.

http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=268165>1=7703&mpc=1

Good for her!

Ex-Bush adviser won’t answer Senate questions
Former political director to follow president's directive on attorney firings

WASHINGTON - President Bush’s former political director says she intends to follow his directive and not answer questions about her role in the administration’s firing of federal prosecutors — unless a court directs her to defy her former boss.

“While I may be unable to answer certain questions today, I will answer those questions if the courts rule that this committee’s need for the information outweighs the president’s assertion of executive privilege,” Sara M. Taylor, who left her White House job two months ago, said in remarks prepared for presentation to the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday.

“Thanks for understanding,” she added in the statement, made available in advance of the midmorning hearing.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19704513/

Posted by: monkey at July 11, 2007 07:09 AM

In other words, she's in the room but her lips are sealed.

Chuck, I don't have a problem with Asian immigration. We're way up to 3rd and 4th generation Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian - and others.

Not news. Just another source.

West will fail, says ex-CIA operative
Former CIA officer Michael Scheuer.
Sarah Smiles and Brendan Nicholson
July 11, 2007
AS PESSIMISM grows in the US about Iraq, the American commander there has warned that the war will take many years to win and a former top CIA officer has told a Sydney conference that defeat is inevitable in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA's bin Laden unit until 2004, said the West was losing the global battle against Muslim insurgents.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/west-will-fail-says-excia-operative/2007/07/10/1183833519273.html

Posted by: monkey at July 11, 2007 07:09 AM

Posted by: sparrow at July 11, 2007 07:40 AM

Seems like that still fits within the definition of "contempt of Congress" to me...

Hope they think so too.

West was losing the global battle against Muslim insurgents.

Posted by: woz at July 11, 2007 07:47 AM

That's because the so-called fight is being "led" by ignorant assholes who couldn't fight and/or think their way out of a paper bag.

Show Me The Moolah

Posted by: madame defarge at July 11, 2007 07:53 AM

On further thought...

I forgot that she's a Republican & that the rules of law don't apply.

Never mind...

On Tuesday, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told the editorial board of The Chicago Tribune that he had a "gut feeling" about a new period of increased risk.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19700127/

Got gas?

Got gas?
Posted by: monkey at July 11, 2007 08:06 AM

It's been a long time, but I deliberately tried to watch Lamestream TeeVee Snooze this morning (well, the in-state version). No mention of the proposed legislation to cut off funds for Dickie's office... but the in-state ABC (reich-wingnut owner who donated to Swiftboaters in '04) channel did mention Chertoff's "gut feeling" about "ter'rist" attacks this summer.

I got a fit of the giggles. "Gut feeling?!?!?!?!?" Is THAT all he's got to go on regarding the potential possiblity of a 'ter'rist' attack?!?!?

Bwahahahahahaha...!

If Georgie and Dickie do not want to be accused of "letting" another 'ter'rist' attack happen on US soil (like they "let" 9/11 happen) as justification for leaving them in office and cancelling the '08 election so they can remain dictators, SOMEONE is going to have to come up with something more substantial than Cherotff's gut as a reason for broadcasting ter'rist propaganda to keep sheeple from talking about the Congressional investigations going on that portray Georgie and Dickie as dictatorial criminals who value loyalty above law - or at the very minimum, unethical and dishonorable cretins....

Chertoff's "gut feeling" = big smelly farts.... Bwahahahahahaha....! Toilet humor!

Posted by: NonnyO at July 11, 2007 08:57 AM

Dont think for a second that Dubya doesnt find that kinda humor funny.

Roadside Bombs at Oval Orifice

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/countdowns-worst-person-in-the-world/

Countdown’s Worst Person in The World

Oh, the remarks about Turd Blossom are too funny! At the risk of sounding pedantic and boring, I (heart) Keith Olbermann....! Men who are both intelligent AND funny are the sexiest men on the planet!!! :-) {IMHO, of course, but I venture to guess that a lot of women think the same thing.}

http://crooksandliars.com/

Go to the C&L web site and start scrolling down through the menu on the main page. Several links/stories have to do with health care, some feature videos, some are print stories, but they do pertain to the subject of the thread header and may be of interest to many on this blog....

Giuliani’s swift boaters
Can union’s attack video sink the GOP candidate’s presidential plan?

WASHINGTON - If there was one lesson of the 2004 election cycle, it was respond to attacks quickly and directly. In the summer of 2004, John Kerry let a slowly-building media campaign against his Vietnam War experience explode into a debacle. From that campaign a new phrase entered the political lexicon -- “swift boating.” Now it appears Republican presidential candidate, former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, may have his own “swift boaters.”

NBC News was given an exclusive look at a 13 minute video prepared by the International Association of Firefighters -- the union for professional firefighters. The video is essentially a long attack ad against Giuliani -- and is buttressed by a comprehensive website titled “Rudy Giuliani: Urban Legend.”

Both the video and the website will be unveiled Wednesday, July 11th at 5 p.m. ET. Simultaneously the video is being uplinked to YouTube and at least a handful of other Internet video sites like video.google.com.

Campaigning on tragedy
Many firefighters are incensed by Giuliani's use of 9/11 in his presidential campaign, and they are determined to pierce what they call the “myth of Giuliani.” They say they are offended Giuliani is using the tragedy to raise money and create the backdrop for his presidential campaign, and they claim that he is distorting the truth in order to do it.

The video uses testimonials from a half dozen firefighters and relatives of firefighters who died in the World Trade Center attack. And while the arguments aren't completely new, when coupled with the images of rescue workers at the WTC site, it is a powerfully effective and potentially damaging video to the Giuliani campaign.

Making their case
The video makes three main arguments against Giuliani:

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19707130/from/RS.1/

Dont think for a second that Dubya doesnt find that kinda humor funny.
Roadside Bombs at Oval Orifice
Posted by: monkey at July 11, 2007 09:14 AM

Oh, I'm quite sure Georgie finds prat falls and people slipping on banana peels and farts just hysterically funny.... Since they've been getting by with Pavlovian fear- and war-mongering rhetoric all these years, they have to be just rolling on the floor laughing their asses off that it's so easy to manipulate so many people....

For those of us with an IQ higher than a rock, it's not so funny (unless it happens to Georgie or Dickie or Gonzo or Condisleazy or a reich-wingnut...).

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070711/ap_on_re_eu/britain_osama_marriage

British divorcee weds bin Laden son

215 comments - you guys must have kept it up all night

"U.S. Senator David Vitter visited a Canal Street brothel several times beginning in the mid-1990s, paying $300 per hour for services at the bordello after he met the madam at a fishing rodeo that included prostitutes and other politicians, according to Jeanette Maier, the "Canal Street Madam" whose operation was shut down by a federal investigators in 2001"

http://blog.nola.com/updates/2007/07/madam_vitter_a_client_at_canal.html

HAHAHAHA!

Repeat Pretender.

Posted by: not my president at July 11, 2007 09:27 AM

It's those special pills we got from Sen Vitter...

I was pretty mentally ready to go to work til someone sent me this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUn3Ntwmqi4

(set in a hospital)

Posted by: Christy at July 11, 2007 09:33 AM

Mrs. Vitter, white courtesy phone, Mrs. Vitter, you have a call waiting, white courtesy phone.

Happy Hump Day

Sanjay Gupta asked the question last night to the effect, "If you needed a cardiac cath procedure, which country would you rather be in?"

That's easy. FRANCE. How do I know, Because my mother was in France vacationing and had to be treated for chest pain with a cardiac cath procedure.

No problems, no wait, and no bills.

Next question Dr. Gupta?

Christy... it hit mainstream media this morning...

New Orleans ex-madam: La. senator a client
Allegation comes hours after Vitter apologizes for links to ‘D.C. Madam’

Updated: 17 minutes ago
NEW ORLEANS - New allegations tie Sen. David Vitter to a high-priced brothel in his hometown, one day after he publicly apologized for his connection to an alleged prostitution ring in Washington, D.C.

On Monday, Vitter acknowledged being involved with the so-called D.C. Madam. A day later, new revelations linked him to a former madam in New Orleans and old allegations that he frequented a former prostitute resurfaced, further clouding his political future.

Jeanette Maier on Tuesday said Vitter was once a client of the Canal Street brothel. She pleaded guilty to running the operation in 2002. Vitter won his seat in the U.S. Senate in 2004.

Saying he was a "decent guy" who appeared to be in need of company when he visited the brothel, Maier added unexpected details to a scandal enveloping the first-term Republican.

"As far as the girls coming out after seeing David, all they had was nice things to say. It wasn't all about sex. In fact, he just wanted to have somebody listen to him, you know. And I said his wife must not be listening," Maier said in an interview with The Associated Press.

more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19708595/from/RS.2/