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The ABC's and the XYZ's of Agrofuels
“You can never do only one thing” —-attributed to ecologist Garret Hardin
“Hey students! Biofuels such as bioethanol and biodiesel can make a big difference in improving our environment, helping our economy, and reducing our dependence on foreign oil.” —-from "ABC’s of Biofuels," U.S. Department of Energy, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy.
Well guess what else, boys and girls.
In its ABC’s, the Department of Energy forgot about the XYZ’s. In our desperate rush to find substitutes for oil in order to keep the American Way of Life in Cars intact, we are rushing down a path that will wreak havoc on the lives of the world’s poor, and further accelerate the already catastrophically high rate of extinction for the rest of the species we share the planet with.
And just for a little ethanol?
Did you know that we (the collective 6.6 billion of us “we”) were already using 23.8 percent of all of the biomass produced on the planet (aka net primary production, or NPP)? According to the most recent comprehensive study, an all-out commitment to ethanol could double humanity’s appropriation of the planet’s net primary production of biomass.
We’re already seeing the early effects of growing ethanol production. The conversion of corn in the U.S. to ethanol has already raised the price of corn around the world. And since corn is the primary feed for industrial meat production, the price of meat is up. There have already been riots in Mexico over the soaring prices of corn.
True, corn is not the only source of ethanol. In fact, it’s one of the worst, in terms of the amount of net energy you get from the ethanol after subtracting out all the energy that goes into growing and processing the corn.
Brazil is making ethanol from sugar cane in a process that produces much more net energy than corn. Only one little problem: in their quest to be “energy independent,” at least of foreign oil, the Brazilians are cutting down the rain forests at an even faster rate, the very forests that are key to absorbing the global warming gas carbon dioxide.
Bad. Very bad.
But when things get bad, isn’t it time for technology to the rescue? The belief that God can perform miracles in the world’s various established religions is nothing compared to the belief that the god of technology can be counted upon to ALWAYS deliver the miracles we need on schedule to keep our auto-based way of life on track.
Tah dah!: cellulosic ethanol. The answer. With a little chemistry here, and a little chemistry there, a few bio-engineering microbes, we’ll figure out how to make ethanol from anything that grows: switchgrass, woodchips, if it comes from a plant, we will learn how to turn it into fuel for our cars. (I don’t really believe in the existence of plant consciousness, but can’t you almost hear a mournful sigh sweeping through the non-agricultural plants of the world, who up until now have only had to worry about our destruction of their habitats and our nasty habit of dropping invasive species into their backyards against whom they have no defenses. Now we want them all, whether they’ve been put through the rigors of agricultural domestication or not.)
Not so fast.
A group of 11 environmental groups, from Denmark to Indonesia, has just published a most enlightening report, "(Agrofuels: Towards a Reality Check in Nine Key Areas)," about the multiple threats posed by the rush to what they call “agro-fuels.” (They object to the use of names like “bio-fuel,” or “bio-diesel” because “of the intensive, industrial way it is produced, generally as monocultures, often covering thousands of hectares, most often in the global South.”)
Here’s a quick look at the major concerns in this report about agrofuels:
1. Acceleration of climate change through destruction of existing forests and use of more petrochemicals to produce the agrofuel crops.
2. Destruction of biodiversity
3. Irrigation for agrofuels will worsen water shortages
4. Pressure for the release of genetically engineered trees
5. Diversion of food crops for fuel production
6. Negative impact on jobs as monocultures replace diversified agricultural systems
7. Violations of human rights from land evictions, widespread pesticide spraying
8. Increased incidence of infectious diseases from deforestation
The report notes that grassroots resistance is growing in the global South against these massive changes in land use.
This fight over the widespread adoption of agrofuels is shaping up to be one of the most important, and bitter, of the 21st century. It’s a fight about Life... or Death...
What shall it be? Shall we prolong the destructive dominance of our auto-based culture by literally seizing food from the mouths of the world’s hungry? When we say “Fill ‘er up,” do we really want to be condemning millions of species to quick extinction? Or do we want to stick with the “you’ll have to pull this steering wheel from my cold dead hands” attitude, and to hell with the poor and the rest of life on our planet? We could, after all, change the design of our cities, do more walking, ride bikes, put more money into rapid transit...
But will we?
Richard looking into the rule about calling the President names right now--he says that there IS a rule, but it is based on maintaining decorum.
Also, from the end of the last thread, I am totally amused by the discovery that Arianna ALSO listens in to cell phone calls on the Amtrak. The cars are fairly quiet on the Acela and you can hear the MOST interesting stuff: mergers and acquisitions, people talking about people I know, etc. I do not sit in the front where Arianna and Kristol would have been, so I have never gotten that much juiciness. But no one ever seems to be concerned about decorum on their cell phones, in a train car filled with who-knows-?
Meanwhile, on the above thread header, check this out:
http://www.tradewindsrealty.com/cgi-bin/listings.cgi?key=2709l#photos
It would make a very nice DCP wind farm...
Richard,
They are in the process of building a commuter rail from some of the neighboring outskirts in A2.
Progress. Slow. But it's beginning.
Another for you Richard.
Chicken fat to fuel cars?
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/TysonTurnsToFatAsRenewableFuelSource.aspx
The Oil squeeze will get tighter.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Commentary/Experts/Jubak/Jim_Jubak.aspx?msn=1
FROM UFPJ: FILIBUSTER IN THE SENATE:
This morning (July 17), the Senate will begin debate on an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Bill which would begin troop redeployment within 120 days. The Republicans plan to filibuster the amendment to prevent a vote, so Majority Leader Harry Reid has vowed to keep the Senate in session all day and night Tuesday (July 17). He hopes to force an up or down vote on the Levin-Reed amendment to redeploy most troops out of Iraq by April 30, 2008.
The pressure of the anti-war movement has brought us this far, we must make sure our demands are not lost in the 'drama' of the Senate all-nighter on Iraq. While we think that we'll be in a better position politically if the Levin-Reed amendment passes, the more important part of our message is our demand for an immediate and complete withdrawal of all troops and contractors, and closing U.S. bases..
Call your Senators with this message:
Bring all U.S. troops and military contractors home from Iraq on a firm, immediate timeline!
Tell Republicans to allow the Levin-Reed amendment to come to a vote.
Tell Democrats to support the Levin-Reed amendment as a step in the right direction. Emphasize that their work is NOT done. The Levin-Reed Amendment does Not end the occupation and it leaves too many troops and all military contractors behind in Iraq.
Capitol Switchboard: 202-224-3121
If we are considering invading Iran because they are supplying terrorists....
should we not then also invade Saudi Arabia as well..?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-saudi15jul15,0,3132262.story
I am watching the filibuster on cspan2 if you'd like to watch too.
I hope they will call them liars today. Because McCain is up there right now lying like a rug once again!
http://c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2
NEW YORK The Pittsburgh newspaper owned by conservative billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife yesterday called the Bush administration's plans to stay the course in Iraq a "prescription for American suicide."
The editorial in the Tribune-Review added, "And quite frankly, during last Thursday's news conference, when George Bush started blathering about 'sometimes the decisions you make and the consequences don't enable you to be loved,' we had to question his mental stability."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003612271
Hahahaha!
"prescription for American suicide."
Posted by: Christy at July 17, 2007 12:41 PM
I said that when the election was stolen... its just taken the regressives SEVEN years to figure it out.
Take 2 Terms and Call Me in the Mourning
I am off to the Iraq Vets Against the War rally in Upper Senate Park and then inside the House for a briefing:
3:30 - 5:30 Congressional Forum on Medical Debt & Bankruptcy
Panelists
Dr. Elizabeth Warren, Harvard Law School bankruptcy expert
Mark Rukavina, The Access Project, national expert on medical debt
Dr. David Himmelstein, Harvard Medical School medical bankruptcy expert
Donna Smith, working American with health insurance bankrupted after cancer treatment, featured in the movie SiCKO
We ALL get it now...
A cursory glance at the news makes it look like a terrorist attack is imminent. A government and press that knows so much about it should be able to prevent it. So it if happens on cue, it is going to be very suspicious and lend credence to the conspiracy theorists. But chances are, it's just another attempt to draw attention away from the unpopularity of the Iraq war. They are trying to turn back the clock to the mentality right after 9/11. It's very manipulative and propagandistic. All this monitoring and cross-monitoring is very paranoia-inducing.
The "terra" scare is top'o'the news domestically and the titles keep getting more ominous by the hour.
In world news, it is a minor story about a report having come out in the US and is trumped by talk of a peace conference in the middle east, talks between US and Iran, and stepping back of N Korean nuclear program, as well as a little progress in Iraq.
So it is in direct contradiction to the other stories of what is going on in the world. The timing and emphasis are obviously designed to desert public attention away from the filibuster and scandals that the government does not wish scrutinized. They figure that it worked before, such as right before we voted in 2004 and also on Super Tuesday during the primaries. It boosted Bush's ratings right after 9/11.
We need to remind people of two myths - "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and "The Emperor Who Had No Clothes." There were certainly tyrants who tried this before there was the internet, or even electricity.
The Rhythm Of The Saints
by Paul Simon
If I have weaknesses
Don't let them blind me
Or camouflage all I am wary of
I could be sailing in seizures of laughter
Or crawling out from under the heel of love
Do my prayers remain unanswered
Like a beggar at your sleeve
Olodumare is smiling in heaven
Smiling in heaven I do believe
Reach in the darkness
A reach in the dark
Reach in the darkness
A reach in the dark
To overcome an obstacle or an enemy
To glide away from the razor or a knife
To overcome an obstacle or an enemy
To dominate the impossible in your life
Always a stranger when strange isn't fashionable
And fashion is rich people waving at the door
Or its a dealer in drugs or in passion
Lies of a nature we've heard before
Do my prayers remain unanswered
Like a beggar at your sleeve
Balalu-aye spins on his crutches
Says leave if you want
If you want to leave
Reach in the darkness
A reach in the dark
A reach in the darkness
Reach in the dark
VA Secretary Jim Nicholson resigns
Will leave by October to return to private sector
WASHINGTON - (AP) - Veterans Affairs chief Jim Nicholson, who was forced to defend the Bush administration's handling of people injured in battle after revelations of shoddy health care at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, announced Tuesday he is resigning.
Nicholson, who is returning to the private sector, has been head of the VA since February, 2005. Before that, he was U.S. ambassador to the Vatican and chairman of the Republican National Committee.
He is the latest in a lengthening line of senior officials heading for the exits in the final 1 1/2 years of President Bush's administration.
more ...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19808482/
L.C. Johnson's diary at Kos will scare the pants off you. (Unless you're Vitter 'cuz his pants are already off.)
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/17/12737/9385
Speaking of Kos, please help out here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/17/152819/396
Unless you're Vitter 'cuz his pants are already off.)
Posted by: sparrow at July 17, 2007 03:40 PM
Liar, liar
Pants on Fire
Them straights sure are dire
Of this they never tire
Higher Hire
I think all of us should be thinking right now about WHEN we do take another domestic attack.
I am sure all of us know it will happen again, and there is not crap being done to prevent ACTUAL threats.
We will not be able to stop it, but we will not be suckered again in the aftermath.
I am not trying to sound...silly... but seriously, there are questions we need to address right off.
Like, what if it is Saudis again... or Pakistanis?
Whatever happens, do whatever you need to do to remain standing, and make it a point right now that you will not be hypnotized or mesmerized no matter what you see or hear.
The only thing we can do is be prepared for that moment, cause God knows we can not stop what is coming.
Taylor has been recalled to reappear.
HHHMMMMMM.
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/House_Oversight_Committee_calls_exRove_aide_0717.html
cause God knows we can not stop what is coming.
Posted by: Christy at July 17, 2007 04:32 PM
We couldn't stop Bush from stealing Ohio in '04, and we knew THAT was coming...
Point well taken.
Christy
When there is a terrorist attack it's not "the Saudis" or "the Pakistanis" - it's individuals. Bin Laden lived in Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan. The Saudi guys who were involved in 9/11 did not represent the nation of Saudi Arabia, which has thousands of different factions (just like US).
That's also the reason why the US cannnot attack other countries in an effort to fight terrorism. It could be any group of individuals or even a lone operator.
They can say countries "harbor" terrorists, but probably every country does. Resham was a Canadian. Would we attack Canada? He was less than an hour from my house with his bomb materials.
On another topic (the thread header topic), here is "the tall man"
Kerry Meets with UN General Secretary
Discussion Centers on Iraq, Darfur, Global Climate Change
WASHINGTON D.C. – Senator John Kerry today met with United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to talk about the urgent need to address global climate change. Kerry said the discussion also touched on Iraq, Burma and Darfur. Ban succeeded Kofi Annan this past January as head of the UN and met with Kerry this morning, along with other members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
“I was pleased to meet Secretary Ban and learn more about his priorities for the United Nations, including his commitment to develop an updated international climate agreement with the participation of all nations,” Kerry said. “Much of the conversation centered on Iraq, but we also had a productive conversation on the crisis in Burma and Darfur. I am hopeful that the United Nations can continue to play an important role around the world in helping to stabilize countries and improve the lives of millions of people.”
Posted by: Christy at July 17, 2007 04:32 PM
I do not expect another "attack" - I think it's all sparkly red herring hyperbole designed to keep Lamestream Media teleprompter readers repeating ad nauseaum in order to keep sheeple from thinking about impeachment, to keep them from thinking or knowing about the most recent 'PubliCON sex scandals, to keep them from remembering that Bush's war is a war crime, that torture and keeping prisoners in Gitmo is a war crime, et cetera and so on and so forth.
Besides which, if we did have another "attack" the size of the criminal acts on 9/11, who the hell would "protect" the people here at home? Cheney and Bush would be between a rock and a hard place and be blamed for yet again failing people like they did during Katrina and Rita when not enough guard troops could help out any US military still on bases here at home. Mercenaries are mostly overseas, so not even they could be called out to "help" (i.e. hinder) here at home.
The only people who would be "helped" are those who are already screaming IMPEACH!
I found a tidbit on a dKos diary yesterday that said it took only four months for the impeachment proceeding against Clinton. Even if we allowed three months to list the already-known and publicized crimes in chronological order and two months for questions and further investigation into crimes we don't know about, that's a total of five months. Five months to impeach Cheney, and an additional five months to impeach Bush. IF the proceedings started immediately, that is. That would still leave about seven months of idiocy for presidential campaigning and an election....
Debate on the Senate floor:
Senator Hagel just slammed Bush and his clueless war planners.
Next up was Kay Bailey Hutchinson - she laid it on real thick. a lot of B.S. and buzz words, lame talking point phrases.
New it's Barbara Boxer...
You can write a very simple letter to your senators -- regardless of their party affiliation -- telling them to support & fight for an up-or-down vote on the Levin-Reed amendment (to begin troop withdrawal within 120 days, with most coming home by April 2008).
Go here ==> http://www.democrats.org/IraqObstruction
Send the form letter they've created or write your own. And tell your friends. Thanks.
VA Secretary Jim Nicholson resigns
Will leave by October to return to private sector
Posted by: monkey at July 17, 2007 03:27 PM
----------
Washington, D.C. – Senator John Kerry issued the following statement today on the resignation of Jim Nicholson, Secretary of Veterans Affairs.
“For years, our veterans have not gotten the support they need from our government,” Kerry said. “With a tenure that allowed the loss of veterans’ sensitive personal data, agency incompetence that lead to many veterans slipping through the cracks, with a careless budget shortfall of $1 billion for healthcare resources, and a looming increase in backlogs, it was obviously far past the time for Secretary Nicholson to step down.
“Hopefully, the days of budgetary hand-wringing that have become so familiar, have come to an end. We don’t need another bureaucrat here in Washington –- especially when it comes to providing services to our nation’s veterans.
“We now have the unique opportunity to provide our veterans with an advocate who will speak on behalf of the entire community. The VA system is not the ‘gold standard’ it was promised to be, and our veterans deserve better. We need a leader who will fight for the resources these brave men and women deserve, and Secretary Nicholson’s resignation is the first step in ensuring that finally happens.”
Posted by dickbell at July 17, 2007 10:39 AM
Excellent thread header, Dick!!!
You've mirrored my concerns about the recent hype regarding biofuels. Besides the obvious (additional pollution, chemical fertilizers and pesticides polluting both land and water, diverting land resources to farm for fuel rather than raise crops for food, etc.), availability of biofuels is entirely dependent on growing seasons, whether or not there are floods or droughts or just enough rain, so they are not reliable sources of energy. And if they pollute our environment more, I don't get the point of putting money into biofuels - other than to make corporate farmers fabulously wealthy - assuming Mother Nature produces just enough rain, that is.
After seeing a PBS show about solar and wind energy being used to advantage mostly in other countries a few months ago, I've been wondering why solar and wind energy are not being developed in this country. Certainly, they are cleaner sources of energy than biofuels. Besides the cost of the solar panels and wind turbines, the actual cost of the solar and wind energy is free. The only "bug" seems to be how to store any extra energy for use at night (aside from necessary things like hospitals and law enforcement and the like, why do we have to have to have so many businesses that run 24 hrs a day anyway?) and for windless days (something a company in CA was working on, according to the PBS show that featured a deserted place where there was a whole field of solar panels; a farm in Germany with solar panels in the fields was selling the energy to the local power company).
Other countries are working on solar and wind energy. If we're working on those forms of energy in the US to any large degree, it's not getting any publicity in any headlines I've seen, although I am aware of wind turbines in my state where farmers are selling the excess energy to their local power company. (If it's been on national news on TeeVee, my moratorium on the majority of "news" from Lamestream Media is nearly total, so I likely missed something somewhere if anyone has reported on solar and wind energy being developed.)
If corporations are worried about their profits, they could still make a killing selling the solar panels and wind turbines. The source to run any of them is free (sun or wind).
I don't get the whole biofuels thing, since it's obviously going to be a huge pollution disaster in multiple ways - for all life forms, plus the air, earth, and water on which we depend. I live in a state where we're famous for our water and our farmland, so biofuels is kind of the "local rage" for farmers, and I don't get it (unless it's for the tax breaks). Worse, a great many of our waterways end up in the Mississippi River which feeds straight south to the Delta, so whatever pollution is created here finds its way thousands of miles south of us. The pollution potential is devastating to think about.
Are my questions about solar and wind energy logical?
As far as energy for vehicles is concerned, why are we not looking into more electric cars, hydrogen (like Iceland), and the like? Why is it so necessary to have such huge personal vehicles? To get from point A to point be and back to point A again really only requires a little vehicle that doesn't use much energy. I get that semi-trucks and the like need to be big to haul large things... but for everyday use by most ordinary people, a very little car would suffice, if people don't use mass transit - like people who live out in the countryside and not cities, that is.
What am I missing?
I'm not asking that to be snarky. I really do want to know why the push for biofuels when it sounds (to my brain) like solar and wind energy would be far more economical and far less devastating to our environment, ditto electrical or hydrogen fuels for little vehicles that are only needed to go to/from work and run errands.
The only common denominator against what "seems" logical to me is corporations....
Err... that's "point A to point B and back to point A again." My fingers can't keep up with my thoughts, and the editing program in my head went on the fritz temporarily.... :-(
Karen -- if you're here...
Do you have any way to get this list of 3618 soldiers killed in Iraq to the Senate tonight so that the Dems can read the names??? That would take 6 hours at 10 names per minute...
Here's the list:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1359472
or here:
http://icasualties.org/oif/Details.aspx
MORE FROM UFPJ:
The following alert went out earlier today, and it is a little confusing, so I wanted to clarify a few things in it:
The first and most important thing is that our calls are essential, and our message is that ALL the U.S. troops and military contractors must come home now.
We need to be a part of this debate. Sen. Reid has decided to draw a line in the sand over the Levin-Reed amendment -- which is a far from satisfactory amendment. That is why the important part of our message, especially to Democrats, is that they must support measures that will truely end the occupation -- these loopholes that leave some troops behind are unacceptable. We have to use this opportunity to drive that message home. We recommend asking your Senators to support the Levin-Reed amendment only as a first step -- the necessary next step is closing the loopholes.
thank You!
sue
**********
This morning (July 17), the Senate will begin debate on an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Bill which would begin troop redeployment within 120 days. The Republicans plan to filibuster the amendment to prevent a vote, so Majority Leader Harry Reid has vowed to keep the Senate in session all day and night Tuesday (July 17). He hopes to force an up or down vote on the Levin-Reed amendment to redeploy most troops out of Iraq by April 30, 2008.
The pressure of the anti-war movement has brought us this far, we must make sure our demands are not lost in the 'drama' of the Senate all-nighter on Iraq. While we think that we'll be in a better position politically if the Levin-Reed amendment passes, the more important part of our message is our demand for an immediate and complete withdrawal of all troops and contractors, and closing U.S. bases..
Call your Senators with this message:
Bring all U.S. troops and military contractors home from Iraq on a firm, immediate timeline!
Tell Republicans to allow the Levin-Reed amendment to come to a vote.
Tell Democrats to support the Levin-Reed amendment as a step in the right direction. Emphasize that their work is NOT done. The Levin-Reed Amendment does Not end the occupation and it leaves too many troops and all military contractors behind in Iraq.
Capitol Switchboard: 202-224-3121
Background:
The Levin-Reed amendment requires troops to begin to redeploy within 120 days, to be completed by April 30, 2008. However, it would allow troops to remain in Iraq to train Iraqi security forces, protect U.S. installations and personnel, and to fight terrorism. Read the Amendment here,. {if that link doesn't work, go to www.unitedforpeace.org/congress )
This amendment would begin to bring some troops home, but would not end the occupation. It highlights the need for continued pressure from the anti-war movement to call for a complete, immediate withdrawal of all troops and contractors . Senate staff tell us that passage of this amendment would open the door to votes on stronger troop withdrawal amendments. If the amendment fails, the Senate will consider weaker measures on Iraq, or none at all.
Bi-partisan co-Sponsors of the Levin-Reed amendment: Smith (R-OR),Hagel (R-NE), Snowe (R-ME), Obama (D-IL), Kerry (D-MA), Biden (D-DE), Clinton (D-NY), Durbin (D-IL)
Target Lists:
Republicans - Alexander (TN), Bennett (UT), Coleman (MN), Collins (ME), Gregg (NH), Specter (PA), Sununu (NH), Warner (VA)
Democrats- Baucus, Bayh, Bingaman, Carper, Casey, Conrad, Dorgan, Landreiu, Lincoln, McCaskill, Nelson (both FL and NE), Pryor, Rockefeller, Salazar, Tester, Webb
--
Sue Udry
Legislative Action Coordinator
United for Peace and Justice
301-565-4050 x315
visit our website: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3116
support our work: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=160
join one of our Legislative listserves:
either announcements only (2-3 emails/week): https://lists.mayfirst.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ufpj-leg-action
or the discussion listserve:
https://lists.mayfirst.org/mailman/listinfo/ufpj-legislative
1100 Wayne Ave. #1020
Silver Spring, MD 20910
Recent speakers in the Senate:
Barbara Mikulski: she was a little slow getting started but then she started to get into it...
John Warner now exchanging ideas with Carl Levin. Levin is sounding pretty good...
Posted by: chinatool at July 17, 2007 12:14 PM
That's been the argument Christy and I have been making, even though it's putting a dent in what little I had of my peacenik reputation.
Iran has a fundamentalist Islamic government that oppresses people. It helps terrorists. It's got oil.
But so do our (or rather, W's) Saudi friends.
We need to remind people of two myths - "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" and "The Emperor Who Had No Clothes." There were certainly tyrants who tried this before there was the internet, or even electricity.
Posted by: not my president at July 17, 2007 02:12 PM
Something that's well forgotten where I am right now - San Diego (I'm on an overnight business trip).
Duke Cunningham was from one of the districts here - and when he got convicted, the voters chose to put another Republican in his place.
As far as energy for vehicles is concerned, why are we not looking into more electric cars, hydrogen (like Iceland), and the like? Why is it so necessary to have such huge personal vehicles? To get from point A to point be and back to point A again really only requires a little vehicle that doesn't use much energy. I get that semi-trucks and the like need to be big to haul large things... but for everyday use by most ordinary people, a very little car would suffice, if people don't use mass transit - like people who live out in the countryside and not cities, that is.
What am I missing?
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2007 07:08 PM
Unfortunately, in the "You Are What You Drive" car culture that I live in, bigger is always better. The more fossil fuel you guzzle, the better. This is especially true of men who are very insecure about their masculinity, and must make up for it with the most obscene jacked-up pickup truck they can find.
I wanna take a Louisville slug to those things sometimes, like Carrie Underwood does in her song "Before He Cheats."
And even the average folks resort to buying the largest vehicles possible, if only to survive a collision from one of these behemoths. I like shoebox cars (i.e. Honda Fit, Nissan Versa) and will get one as my next car - and I am a true oddball among people I know IRL.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke in San Diego at July 17, 2007 07:59 PM
Choice is in doubt. The voting machines were not registered and were not safely kept locked up. They also installed the new Republican while questions still abounded.
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2007 07:08 PM
And Nonny, if this makes you feel any better -
The largest wind power plant complex in the world, if I am not mistaken, is in the US - in Tehachapi, California. Another California location, Palm Springs, comes very close, and there is a third California location, Altamont Pass between the Bay Area and San Joaquin Valley.
Posted by: s at July 17, 2007 08:05 PM
True, and the election was run by the Governator's appointee Bruce McPherson (who has since been voted out and replaced by a Democrat), but given the level of corruption, it shouldn't have even been that close.
At least the Democrats fought back some - which is unusual for the state-level party. It's usually too busy tending to safe Democratic districts up north.
From the previous thread:
Posted by: monkey at July 17, 2007 10:43 AM
Monkey-stealing is hideous, but it's tame compared, to, say shelling out $3B to corrupt our political system, or sneaking a large free trade agreement past American voters without their knowledge and approval.
These reasons are why I didn't name Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio in the list of shoebox cars I want.
Would someone keep track of how many times Move On is slammed by the Repubs in the Senate??
Hey, I got a good idea for some street theater tonight - do you have some 55 gallon drums that you can mark OIL on and take them to the capitol???
This clever piece originated in Australia. It's also informative and gives you a few chuckles as it moves along. Turn on speaker.
http://dingo.care-mail.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/the-daily-show-is-back/
The Daily Show Is Back!
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/the-colbert-report-is-backtoo/
The Colbert Report Is Back…Too!
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/countdown-the-worst-person-in-the-world/
Sirius Radio featured in Countdown’s “The Worst Person In The World” segment
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/countdown-harriet-miers-inherent-contempt-pat-tillman-executive-privilege/
Countdown: Harriet Miers, Inherent Contempt, Pat Tillman & Executive Privilege
{{{BTW, wasn't Miers' deadline 5 p.m. today? Anyone know if she's going to be given the kid gloves, just as Condisleazy's been ignored for not answering her subpoena...?}}}
NMP,
I do not believe another attack is hyperboyle, for no other reason that there are a thousand Attas out there who actually believe in the 72 virgin bullsh*t.
Even if bin laden and georgie find it useful to tip the scales now and then, unfounded fear will not work forever and both of them know it.
They NEED another attack to justify what has already happened.
As far as terrorists being individuals, yes, I understand that, but when 15 of 19 are Saudi and the house of Saud is financing them, and if another group of mostly Saudis hit us we will not have much time to deal with it before our people completely freak out.
If they come from Pakistani camps, that is a whole different problem.
If Mexican drug dealers hit us, we are going to have to be ready for it.
Another attack will come. And then another after that and another after that. Thanks to georgie our people are now the most hated and dispised and there are enough of them who are true believers and will 'bring it on'.
I am not saying we have to be afraid, but we should very much prepare our minds for the fact that it will happen again and there is not jack sh*t anyone in this country can do about it.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke in San Diego at July 17, 2007 08:04 PM
If driving small cars was a status symbol like it used to be back in the '70s when I got my Dodge Colt (which, BTW got 33-35 mpg on long trips which included two or three mountain passes), perhaps progress toward driving sensible cars would become a fad again, the "in" thing to do.
Big vehicles are impractical for short people. I don't have legs long enough to get into and out of the bloody things with any ease so for someone like me they are utterly impractical, even if they got 50 mpg.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by: Ally McRepuke in San Diego at July 17, 2007 08:10 PM
Only marginally. I wish they had some publicity, that other states were doing the same....
Posted by: Ralpheh at July 17, 2007 07:41 PM
Interesting wording.... "and military contractors..." Why not use the term that describes what they are: "mercenaries"...?
Better yet, why don't Congress Critters and Bu$hCo admit how many of mercenaries (soldiers of fortune, killers for hire/profit) are in Iraq?
Mercenaries are et another stain on the US's reputation....
THIS is the LOOPHOLE big enough to fly a military transport plane through, the LOOPHOLE that will keep the occupation going, and allow The Cretin to keep however many US military personnel he wants to stay in Iraq permanently on the permanent bases he's creating there:
"However, it would allow troops to remain in Iraq to train Iraqi security forces, protect U.S. installations and personnel, and to fight terrorism."
{{{BTW, wasn't Miers' deadline 5 p.m. today? Anyone know if she's going to be given the kid gloves, just as Condisleazy's been ignored for not answering her subpoena...?}}}
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2007 08:31 PM
Here's your answer:
Harriet Miers rejects subpoena compliance deadline, shakes off 'contempt' threats
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/BREAKING_Miers_rejects_call_to_appear_0717.html
Christy
Yes I believe there could easily be another attack or more. Glasgow almost got smacked, London did, Bali did, Madrid did, and in fact the Saudis have had several.
I agree that there is very little we can do and so I worry more about the public panic reaction than an actual attack. That and the media response and the government propaganda.
It's in the archives of the Miami Herald who finance Atta and he had breakfast at the White House on September 10.
Christy
What's left on it is out of Canada.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html
Ally et al,
The coolest itty bitty auto, bar none, is the Cooper Mini. It's not just a shoebox, it's a status symbol too. And it's as satisfyingly efficient as it is sexy as hell to drive. What's not to like?
http://miniusa.com/
they're comin fer yer kids...
http://www.clk4.com/NGD_10359/index.cgi
IT'S 9:30, DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOUR PRESIDENT IS?
ralpheh...
hopefully, he's somewhere eating a huge pretzel...
Posted by: Otter at July 17, 2007 09:27 PM
Thanks for the reminder, Otter. Minis are a bit pricey, but good for my vanity.
For that matter, a car made by the same company - a BMW 3-series - is also surprisingly economic. Good if you need vanity AND economy at the same time. I have one, and so does another DCPer.
If BMW didn't cozy up to Pope Benedict so much, I'd be even happier.
I'm vain - I am at the Apple Store in San Diego, as I window shop at the city's most posh mall.
NMP and Christy,
There WILL be another attack, no doubt about it.
The key is to prevent it from being another tool for the Busheviks to take away American freedoms.
Besides, the more W angers the rest of the world, the more likely the attack is.
Thank The Lord For The Night Time
by Neil Diamond
Daytime turns me off, and I dont mean maybe
Nine-to-five aint taking me where I'm bound
When its done, I run out to see my baby
We get groovin when the sun goes down
I thank the lord for the night time
To forget the day
A day of up-, uptight time
Baby, chase it away
I get relaxation
Its a time to groove
I thank the lord for the night time
I thank the lord for you
Ill talk about plans now, baby, I got plenty
Nothing ever seems turn out the way it should
Talk about money, girl, I aint got any
Seems like just one time I'm feelin good
I thank the lord for the night time
To forget the day
A day of up-, uptight time
Baby, chase it away
I get relaxation
Its a time to groove
I thank the lord for the night time
I thank the lord for you
I just started to "text message" the Press secretaries with cell phones. My message was IMPEACH CHENEY. I just got a reply.... LOL
"so I worry more about the public panic reaction than an actual attack."
Yes, that was exactly my point.
On 911 we all just REACTED, once we were not stunned into paralysis.
The next time, we must not even allow the paralysis to set in, we must stay focused and try to keep others focused.
And, I would just like to add... I want a Mini Cooper.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke in San Diego at July 17, 2007 09:35 PM
Hey Ally! Hope you're well. Shop til you drop! ;-)
"Besides, the more W angers the rest of the world, the more likely the attack is."
Ally
Me too, I believe that.
When it does come, God only knows what races, countries, or nationalitys will be involved.
We are uniting our enemies in hatred of us. Eventually, they will get through.
In honor of Nancy Pelosi as she leads a march on Senate tonight during Iraq debate
http://www.americablog.com/2007/07/pelosi-to-lead-march-on-senate-tonight.html
Wilson Pickett - In The Midnight Hour
I'm gonna wait 'till the midnight hour
That's when my love comes tumbling down
I'm gonna wait 'till the midnight hour
When there's no one else around
I'm gonna take you girl and hold you
Do all things I told you in the midnight hour
I’m gonna wait till the stars come out
See them twinkle in your eyes
I'm gonna wait 'till the midnight hour
That's when my love begins to shine
You're the only girl I know
Really love you so in the midnight hour
Harriet Miers rejects subpoena compliance deadline, shakes off 'contempt' threats
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/BREAKING_Miers_rejects_call_to_appear_0717.html
Posted by: madame defarge at July 17, 2007 08:51 PM
Thanks, Madame!
If Conyers has the gumption he used to have before he followed Pelosi's orders to take impeachment off the table, he'll file inherent contempt charges against Miers, per what Turley said in the video with Keith Olberman.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/countdown-harriet-miers-inherent-contempt-pat-tillman-executive-privilege/
Please,please,please,please,please,please let our Congress Critters grow spines and balls overnight...?
The second link, in particular, speaks to Dick's thread header and to what I said about polluting the Mississippi River and the Mississippi Delta....
Solar Power Wins Enthusiasts, but Not Money
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/071707EB.shtml
Andrew C. Revkin and Matthew L. Wald of The New York Times write: "The trade association for the nuclear power industry recently asked 1,000 Americans what energy source they thought would be used most for generating electricity in 15 years. The top choice? Not nuclear plants, or coal or natural gas. The winner was the sun, cited by 27 percent of those polled."
Report: Gulf's "Dead Zone" Growing
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/071707EA.shtml
The Associated Press reports: "Researchers predict that the recurring oxygen-depleted 'dead zone' off the Louisiana coast will grow this summer to 8,543 square miles - its largest in at least 22 years."
William Rivers Pitt | Forcing the Issue
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071707R.shtml
Writing for Truthout, William Rivers Pitt says, "It was just after 2:00 p.m. Monday afternoon when blogger Bob Geiger broke the story. 'Forcing his Republican colleagues to put up or shut up on the notion of an up-or-down vote,' wrote Geiger, 'Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nevada) just moments ago announced that he will immediately file a cloture motion on the Reed-Levin troop redeployment bill and, if Republicans follow through with a filibuster, will place the Senate in a prolonged all-night session Tuesday to force a true continuation of debate.'"
Critics Slam Intel Chair's Secrecy Over Bribery Report
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071707T.shtml
Justin Rood, ABC News, reports on Representative Silvestre Reyes (D-Texas), chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, who "is facing tough criticism for burying a report on criminal behavior on his committee."
Largest Iraq Contract Rife With Errors
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071707M.shtml
Matt Kelly of USA Today reports: "Government auditors discovered something odd last year when they reviewed KBR Inc.'s annual cost estimate to provide support services for US troops in Iraq. The contractor proposed charging $110 million for housing, food, water, laundry and other services on bases that had been shut down."
Impeach Now
Or Face the End of Constitutional Democracy
By Paul Craig Roberts
Unless Congress immediately impeaches Bush and Cheney, a year from now the US could be a dictatorial police state at war with Iran.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18020.htm
A Free Press or a Ministry of Truth?
By Paul Craig Roberts
In his novel 1984, George Orwell portrayed a future time in which the explanations of recent events and earlier history are continually changed to meet Big Brother's latest purpose. Previous explanations disappear down "the memory hole." Sound familiar? Any American who pays attention can observe the identical phenomenon occurring in the US today.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18021.htm
GO MARY! Go Mary!
Hahaha!
senator MARY LANDRIOU JUST GAVE BUSH A SPANKING!!!!!
WHOO WEE!!!
HAHAHAHA!!!
I LOVE THAT COONASS!
Yeah, she is *totally* kicking ass on the Senate floor right now. You go, girl!
Christy
I blunted my reaction by not watching tv. I have seen 9/11 attack maybe twice and have never seen the people jumping. My imagination was enough. I was too afraid of being hypnotized. My first thought was "What did we do?" and "What creates terrorism?" and "What is wrong with our foreign policy?" "What is happening to cause such hate?" "Why wasn't this prevented?"
As for who did it, I assumed Al Quaida because of their prior patterns and what we had gone through here prior to the Millennium. We had rented a hotel room close to the Space Needle and the festivities were severely curtailed, because of Ressam, the CANADIAN.
One of my first other thoughts was "Who will they bomb?" "They are going to bomb a country to retaliate for individuals. People will want revenge so will accept the killing of any people they think look like those blamed for the attack." Those sorts of thoughts were running through my head.
I went to the library and checked out books on the middle east. I Googled the Bin Ladens and my city. I checked out how to migrate to Canada. I think if there was another attack with the type of nationalistic paranoia that we experienced after 9/11, we might just leave now.
Mary Landriou just brought in a photograph of Osama Bin Laden to the Senate to remind Bush what he looks like and who we should be after.
Someone put up a video of Landrieu or can I get it on C-span. I am not turing on the freaking tube.
OK I found C-span 2 but I feel like a nerd.
Oh God Lieberman - I need a drink
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/17/countdown-al-qaeda-reality-check/
Countdown: al Qaeda Reality Check
Is Lieberman filibustering or just bullshitting?
I want Senator Byrd!!!
NMP,
CSpan has nothing to do with it.
You have to get infected with coodies to be a nerd.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/17/194353/205
Live-Blogging the Filibuster....
Posted by: not my president at July 17, 2007 10:15 PM
Unless he's going to be up speaking again, Byrd spoke earlier today.
Lieberman is a dangerous man.
Landrieu did great! I love when she brought in the photo and also the sign, "Let us vote!" I loved how she said, 'When the enemy is doing better than when the war started, you are not WINNING the war as the Republicans and President would have us believe."
I also loved how she mentioned the $$$ being sunk into Iraq even before breakfast that prevents us from going after OBL.
The surge is working! Al Quaida is on the run!
My blood pressure is going up!
Harry Reid should demote Lieberman's chairmanship as of right now. He's proven himself to be against all moderate or independant Democratic values. He's a neocon now!!!
Lieberman IS a neocon now. He thinks and talks like one.
It's absoutely outrageous.
Lieberman reading the words of Al Quaida. He is proving nothing. Of COURSE terrorists rushed into Iraq after we irrelevantly invaded it! We prepared a perfect laboratory for them. & what he is doing tonight is putting himself at their level.
See you at Daily Kos! I am going to get my cot and toothbrush ready.
"We could, after all, change the design of our cities, do more walking, ride bikes, put more money into rapid transit...
"But will we?
"Posted by dickbell at July 17, 2007 10:39 AM"
I always thought that sustainable energy independence should be right up there with media and election reform on the DCP charter. The first two issues may well be the reason that important issues like the third never even enter into the electoral calculus. Our political system does not seem to be able to address such issues that in the end have so much more to do with the quality of life my daughter will have, and that also underlie some of teh few important policy issues that do get addressed in our politics (e.g., our military and foreign relations posture in the Middle East).
Chuck in Houston
PS: I like my '92 Honda Civic Hatchback 5-Speed Manual -- gets mid-30's in 80 mph Houston summer commute traffic with the A/C on full blast, high 30's on otherr commutes, and gets into the 40's on the open road. I commute about 40 miles a day round trip.
Thank God he FINALLY shut up.
Holy crap.
Looky Looky.
Click on the thumbnail to look at the actual ad...OMFG.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/17/9137/01266
I read up on Lieberman.
He is a chickenhawk - another who never served yet sends others to their deaths, who had a student deferment.
He is also a strong opponent of violence in the media and in video games, yet when it comes to being a warmonger .. go figure.
This guy now is already hoarse. It's going to be a long night.
SHerrod Brown is doing GREAT!
Talking about Cheney driving up in his limo for his weekly (lunch) armtwisting in his wake. That's why it's so difficult to get 11 Republicans to 'turn'.
TWO great points in a row!
Brown talking about the phsycial design of humvies that make it so much more dangerous and how many lives are lost due to this equipment.
Jon Stewart just now: "The only thing I'd trust less than a Louisiana politician who's sleeping with a hooker is... one who isn't."
Calls you can still make.
http://ga3.org/dickdurbin/iraq_filibuster.html
Listening to Snowe...I'm quite upset that she didn't stand up 1 year ago for a 'new strategy' but this is sad that she's just pusing strategies with her own name on it now.
And for her to have the nerve to reprimand Reid for being too 'partisan' while she never said boo to her party for 2 years...
After 16+ hours of watch...and a few scant hours before it starts again tomorrow...I'm afraid I can't keep my eyelids open to watch the filibuster. But I'm lending my moral support...
Maybe someone could read out all the expenditures that we have made in Iraq that are NOT directly in support of US troops. I.e. permanent bases, Iraqi infrastructure, contractors, bribes, "lost money", etc. And then maybe they could read out a laundry list of what that could have bought back home, or things that Congress turned down (wrote out of spending bills) due to lack of funds, or tax cuts of various types that each family could have enjoyed if they were not funding these extra Iraq costs...etc.
Bob Mendendez' constituents are well represented.
He is telling the truth about the tyranny of the minority.
But I'm lending my moral support...
Posted by: V at July 17, 2007 11:26 PM
V, same here. Back in my hotel room, where I don't think I get C-SPAN (I do think I am getting Faux though, no thanks on that)... this is the best I can do.
Madame - I did have a good time. I didn't shop till I dropped, though. :)
Posted by: not my president at July 17, 2007 10:08 PM
I have a pictorial book of 9/11 somewhere at home. Really grisly stuff. Yes, there are close-up photos of jumping people. And that's where I'd like to put the nightmarish memories at.
I don't know any victims personally, but back when I went to college in NYC, I spent time at the WTC complex, and flew back to California on the very plane that ended up being United 175 that day. And that's more than bad enough for me.
My immediate reaction, even on that day, was that W really PO'd somebody in the Middle East, and made this happen. I really lost it when the TV showed his smirk from Florida.
Posted by: Chuck at July 17, 2007 10:48 PM
I read on MSN Autos one day that the 1992 Civic VX hatchback was as efficient as today's much more complex (and expensive) Civic Hybrid.
(I'm a bit of a gearhead myself, that's why I check that kind of stuff.)
We are watching here:
http://www.cspan.org/watch/cs_cspan2_rm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2
Thanks Karen, listening in...
Isakson (R-GA) on the consequences of withdrawal.
Same old tired talking points.
Thanks again for the link, Karen.
Still watching C Span on the computer here .. have to be up at 6 AM though. Not sure what to expect except I don't put any dirty procedural tricks past the neocons.
It's very manipulative and propagandistic. All this monitoring and cross-monitoring is very paranoia-inducing.
Posted by: not my president at July 17, 2007 02:05 PM
It always strikes me as very odd that our leaders KNOW exactly how terrorists think. I don't even know how my own children think. Methinks they do protest too much. It seems they know a little more than they should.
We're holding our *terrorist* (alleged) in solitary confinement. The government revoked his visa after the court granted him bail. His *alleged* crime. He gave his mobile phone to a 2nd cousin when he was leaving the UK because it still had credit on it. The charge against him? Recklessly providing material support (his simcard) to terrorists.
I just hope all the young people I've handed a mobile phone to, with simcard intact - and my PIN for the phone should it lock up - I hope they never ever lose them anywhere for some terrorist to pick up, or I could find myself in Australia's version of Guantanamo - wherever that is. In the desert somewhere most likely.
This is John Huff-n-Puff Howard at his paranoid and fear-mongering best. "I know what you don't know - I know how these people think". Well, it takes one to know one, doesn't it? He's still trying to say that David Hicks wasn't tortured. Huff-n-Puff is all hot air as always.
L.C. Johnson's diary at Kos will scare the pants off you. (Unless you're Vitter 'cuz his pants are already off.)
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/7/17/12737/9385
Posted by: sparrow at July 17, 2007 03:40 PM
It makes me wonder if Bush wants to stay in Iraq until every single American military person has been killed. He's certainly not listening to accurate opinions - either military or political.
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2007 07:08 PM
Why not? NonnyO, you said that 4 letter F word that makes corporations scream loudly -- F R E E
They have to make it complicated so that you have to BUY it from them - the wind and the sun.
This clever piece originated in Australia. It's also informative and gives you a few chuckles as it moves along. Turn on speaker.
http://dingo.care-mail.com/cards/flash/5409/galaxy.swf
Posted by: NonnyO at July 17, 2007 08:29 PM
Thanks for that NonnyO!
Is anybody else still up watching C-Span 2?
Oh my gosh! Sen. Norm Coleman is on looking sleepy and tired. These guys are really having to work tonight!
I am just so sorry I missed it earlier. Day off yesterday loaded with company and lots of running around. Hit the hay early and missed so much!!
Am praying for the protection of our country, and wisdom for everyone involved. Lord, protect us from propaganda of imperialists and warmongers, and just let the truth come forth. Equip these people with the wisdom and courage to do what is truly and sincerely best for this country and the world.......
Three years ago I never thought I would see a day like this....
At LEAST WE ARE AT A POINT OF DISCUSSION!!!!!
Sen. Bob Casey D-Pennsylvania on now in support of the amendment.
Our congress being up all night at least makes me feel like we the people have some measure of voice. At long last!
I am up and at work (hospital) but only following via blogs
I am THRILLED the dems are doing something!
I think I just heard Mrs. Clinton vote Aye. Wow, isn't today's technology great? I feel like I am right there!!!!
I wonder how my reps are going to vote. Dems who appear to have been encouraged at one time or another to compromise in the past.
This is something.
Hi Ruffian, they are just calling out the Senators' names right now and I'm not quite aware if it means they are now casting their votes or what. The senators are up walking arouond as they call the names out.
The screen says "Request Attendance of Absent Senators."
13 nayes, make that 14.
I feel like an anxious father in a delivery room.
Is it actual vote or vote to vote
Anybody up in the IRC? I can't get in. Says my equipment won't allow it to display properly. Got the emoticons but that's all.
Ruffian
says : Majority Leader Reid called for this procedural vote to bring Senators to the floor.
Maybe it's just the vote to vote.
sounds like it
Brownback no
Boxer aye
Brown aye
Grassley no
Burr no
Akaka aye
Allard no
Bond no
Ms. McCulskey aye
Okay, Ruff says Vote to begin the procedure I believe....
Baucus aye
Salisar aye
Levin aye
Dodd aye
Lautenburg aye
Dorgin AYE (my sen.) (AYE YI YI!!!!! woopee!)
What I meant by that Ruf was not that the vote is complete, but that it appears to be a vote whether or not to begin procedure.
I can't believe Dorgan voted aye. I have gotten letters back from him in the past that made me cautious.
37 ayes
nay 27 (approx. screen went fast)
Motion passed!!!!!!!!!
Kerry on now.
Says that senators on the other side of aisle are setting up straw men then knock them down, strategically.
Wish you guys were up.
Addressing saying speculation that if we leave Iraq Al Qaeda will take over and saying that our presence has actually been used by Al Qaeda to their benefit.
go john!
gotta getback to actual work now.
He's explaining it quite well.
Kerry says "We'll know what we don't know after five years." "What isn't happening there is profoundly about those troops - no question that we respect the troops. Pride of service is great to see, but they deserve a mission that is equal to their sacrifice.'
If anybody is in the IRC can you call me and help me get in?
Kerry is saying if ther