Whistling in the Dark: Dark Humor

Of course it's blocked. Enjoy!

A distinction should always be made between dark humor and sick humor, the former being more ironic, the latter more shocking.

Some great examples: Terry Southern, Kurt Vonnegut, Dr. Strangelove.

It allows us to treat serious topics but with more art, thought and variety. I wonder if there is more of this type of entertainment in times of political repression? It's not hard to find examples in literature and history. There is alot in South American literature and even music.

Springtime For Hitler
by Mel Brooks

Germany was having trouble, what a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore its former glory
Where, Oh where was he? Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me.
And now it's..

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Deutschland is happy and gay
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Winter for Poland and France
Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Come on, Germans, go into your dance

I was born in Dusseldorf, and that is why they call me Rolf
Don't be stupid, be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Goosestep's the new step today
bombs falling from the skies again
Deutschland is on the rise again

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Uboats are sailing once more

Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Means that soon we'll be going
We've got to be going
You know we'll be going to WAR!

Humor is kind of a tricky thing in this country.

Most people understand slapstick humor (and it's actually rather universal). However, if we are the person slipping on the banana peel, we don't appreciate slapstick humor at all. It depends entirely on the perspective.

Mostly whenever I've used satire or irony it's perceived as rude or insulting. I do have to watch how I use it for the simple reason many people don't get it. Usually only people who have known me for a very long time get how and when I use satire. It's often been a coping mechanism for me to deal with stress.

It's said "Tragedy + Time = Comedy" and that formula does seem to be true. I can't express my horrified shock the first time I heard a holocaust survivor crack a joke about the experience. I never could quite laugh at that person's joke, or, more accurately laugh with them, because it's not a shared experience, so I lack the humorous perspective of that particular tragedy.

There is a lot of snarky satire and irony and puns in blogland over the fact that we have THE most incredibly stupid man "leading" this country. He is a walking, "talking" joke, no doubt about it. I think jokes about him and people in his administration are warranted, and most of the time everyone 'get's it. It's most definitely a shared experience where we can laugh with each other at and about them, especially Georgie. The tragedy is that we even have such a "man" in the White House. It's a matter of laughing to keep from crying hysterically over the horrors he has visited upon all of us - whether here in this nation or around the globe. Why he wasn't ridiculed and laughed at the moment he mentioned a war in a country that didn't have anything to do with 9/11 whatsoever, and then stopped from starting an illegal war there, I'll never know. Mass insanity seems to have seized the brains of our Congress Critters and Lamestream Media at the same time, which then caught on with about half of the general population. I think in the future these years will be analyzed by historians and psychologists as the time this country collectively went temporarily insane (individual exceptions noted; they all seem to have found their way to blogs to cope with the tragedy; blogs are the new support groups).

How does one cope with knowing the "leader" of this country hasn't been removed by impeachment or by force to be tried for those war crimes? I don't understand it, don't understand the reluctance of our Congress Critters who have refused to even consider impeachment proceedings on the floor of the House when they have all the evidence necessary (and the US Constitution and Thomas Jefferson's writing) as a guide to bringing everything back to some kind of homeostasis. It's all there; there's precedent, and more than ample grounds for impeachment and criminal charges....

I do not know if I can laugh at a Muslim-American's experiences; mostly, I just want to cry. I think I'm too aware of the horrors and the war crimes and criminal behavior the "leader" of this country has wrought upon Iraq and at Gitmo, in particular. Perhaps years from now I will be able to laugh at the dark humor involved, but at this moment in time I can't imagine a time far into the future where I'll ever be able to look back and laugh about the years encompassing November 2000 to January 2009 (and if what we fear comes to pass and Georgie and Dickie start yet another war and/or cancel the '08 elections, we may well rue time beyond January '09, too).

Jokes about starting another illegal war or illegally invading another country? Not funny. Snarkily sking why countries who support criminal gangs who commit criminal acts that lead to people feeling terrorized haven't been censured or had sanctions brought against them... might be funny. But there's a serious element to the questions, because there's logic to the questions. We're too used to Lamestream Media and Congress Critters following all the pretty, glittering red herrings Georgie and Dickie and their ilk tell them to watch (it's as if those herring are wearing gorgeous sequins and bright shiny baubles), and we're looking at the other pretty fishies (realities) that have more substance (grounded in reality). Logical thought and logical questions have been ignored in favor of those pretty red sequin-wearing fishies who have led us over so many dams to certain doom.

Laugh at Georgie and Dickie and their mis-administration? Oh, yeah. They're tragically funny in so many ways we'll still be laughing about them for years to come.

Mostly, right now, I just want this country to return to peaceful co-existence with our neighbors on this planet so we can start to heal from the tragedy of these years and work toward healing our bruised and battered planet that humans have nearly destroyed with pollution, over-population, and global warming, not to mention the other things that need fixing in this country. We could start that process sooner if our Congress Critters would impeach the bam dastards and/or put them in jail where they belong....

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/12/special-comment-on-michael-chertoffs-gut/

Special Comment: On Michael Chertoff’s Gut

{{{Prime Time Satire!!! If I were in the White House "advising" his naked-emperorness, I'd point and laugh and say "See? All your 'ter'rist' talk to scare sheeple into hiding under their beds is now just a topic for ridicule. Telling us there's 'ter'rists' coming to get us has been a joke played on us too many times, and now it's all a joke to everyone. Didn't you ever read the story of "Peter and the Wolf?"}}}

William Rivers Pitt | We're All Gonna Die
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071307J.shtml
William Rivers Pitt of Truthout writes: "The recipe is simple, like the directions on the back of a shampoo bottle. Damaging reports of Bush administrations malfeasance emerge. Warnings of imminent terrorist-borne doom immediately follow, all spread far and wide by said Bush administration. Lather, rinse, repeat. There are many more instances of this curious timing to be found, but apparently, no one in the administration is concerned this dubious pattern - spreading fear among the populace to change the subject, an act of terrorism itself - might start to wear thin."

{{{More Satire.}}}

Bush war policy needs more time, says Rice

Story Highlights:
NEW: Defense chief Gates, Joint Chiefs chair Pace set 1:45 ET news conference

Top U.S. general in Iraq warns of "consequences" from early pullout

Rice: "We ought to stick" to Bush's troop build up strategy in Iraq

House votes 223-201 to force U.S. troop withdrawal by next spring

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice exhorted congressional critics of Iraq war policy Friday to give the Bush administration and the fledgling government in Baghdad until September to "make a coherent judgment of where we are."

"I understand people's concern. I understand people's impatience," says Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

On the morning after the House voted 223-201 for a Democratic proposal to force a U.S. troop withdrawal by next spring, Rice acknowledged in a round of television interviews that Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's government hasn't achieved "as much progress as we would like."

"But we shouldn't just dismiss as inconsequential the progress that they have made," the secretary argued.

more ...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/13/us.iraq.ap/index.html

NonnyO
Yes, I just realized today that my main soft spot for humor is around violence. I just am not the one to laugh at "nuke" so and so things. Now if someone is going to "nuke" something in the microwave, that's fine with me. In other contexts, I would like to require the joker to take a look at radiation sickness, melted eyeballs etc. and think again about what they are saying. If it's someone like Coulter, they may say it's satire but I think they're actually dead serious. One thing about her, she is never funny. Same with Limbaugh. He thinks he is, but his sense of humor is extremely primitive. They are the type who laugh uproariously if they hear a simple word like "France" or "toilet."

Monkey
Yes I heard her on the radio too (Rice) - I keep deleting my comments about her so I'm just going to sto other than to say she's another one where I can't decide whether she is worse on radio or television.

"I don't know jokes; I just watch the government and report the facts." - Will Rogers

"You can tell a lot about a fellow's character by his way of eating jelly beans."
~Ronald Reagan

Humor is the exact same thing as diplomacy.

You have to find the right words.

Otherwise, wars ensue.

Posted by: not my president at July 13, 2007 02:57 PM

We need to kick Coulter in the groin, and see him/her collapse in total agony.

That will surely be the most entertaining and satisfactory (for spectators, that is) moment of Coulter's public "career."

As Stephanie Miller reiterated yesterday - it's a MAN, baby!

I am pretty offended by the pink burkas, but I also laughed out loud when they came on. I love the cheesy choreography and the ballsiness of the absolute refusal to take any of it seriously.

At the same time, I am so angry about the way we treat the countries of the M.E. that I cannot believe anyone from those cultures would be willing to play at representation that is so cliched.

I am still thinking about all of this.

Karen,

Thanks for sharing that. I agree with this statement 100%:

"I love the cheesy choreography and the ballsiness of the absolute refusal to take any of it seriously."

Talented guy.

I think Osama has become a bit of a caricature, because of BushCo's use of him as their Boogeyman. Probably just another one of their huge mistakes.

Zeitgeist?

"Fox News' Bill O'Reilly promised his audience "the truth about Iraq" on Thursday, saying that most Americans now feel the war has not been worth the costs, while "the president's argument for sustaining the war is largely theoretical."

O'Reilly turned on his special guest during the segment, White House press secretary Tony Snow, saying, "You can't win ... unless the Iraqi people turn on all the terrorists. And they're not."

Full piece here: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/OReilly_takes_on_Tony_Snow_You_0713.html

Hat tip HuffPo.

Speaking of dark humor, here's another great video from the Houston Chronicle (via HuffPo)

Feel Good, Inc - Bush's policy

http://blogs.chron.com/nickanderson/archives/2007/07/feel_good_inc.html

'Pink burkas'

Huh?

I must have totally missed something.

BTW, reports are now saying Turkey has ammassed a full 200,000 troops on their border.

We are totally screwed.

Oh wait I see the pink burka.

Wow, I thought they only came in blue.

Sorry forgot link.

DIYARBAKIR, Turkey, July 13 (Reuters) - Turkey's army has boosted troop levels in the southeast to more than 200,000, most of them stationed along the border with Iraq, security sources told Reuters on Friday.

The unusually large-scale buildup, which includes tanks, heavy artillery and aircraft, is part of a security crackdown on Kurdish rebels hiding in southeast Turkey and northern Iraq, said the security sources, who declined to be named.

http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alertnet.org%2Fthenews%2Fnewsdesk%2FL13537048.htm

Security crackdown, yeah right.

Bill Moyers is on PBS right now with a great discussion of the need for impeachment of Bush/Cheney.

John Nichols from the Nation, and conservative Bruce Fein, are the guests, and agree that we must impeach both of them.

Turn it on.

Watch Bill Moyers Journal tonight...

The conversation is about IMPEACHMENT....

One guy just said "Nancy Pelosi is wrong!"

Thunderstorm here, I'm going offline....

KLTS channel 24 out of Shreveport is the local PBS station.

They just yanked Bill Moyers OFF THE AIR and I am looking at a black screen saying they are sorry they have technical problems.

Unfreakingbelievable.

rausch tadalafil http://tadalafil.mastertopforum.net >tadalafil and

The FEAR UP cast was so talented. Irony and satire are hard when the people aren't in on the joke, and people are still more misinformed than we admit.

Where is this playing, and for how long?

I am finally home after going to work for 12 hours and then to a three hour class contrasting Traditionalists, Boomers, Generation X and the Millenials.

Anyway, I can finally view the video above and I did laugh. He had the Broadway thing nailed.

Here are a couple from someone I'm an admirer of - Sacha Baron Cohen. He's been criticized, but like Michael Moore, who has as well, he is resented because he stays in character and people then reveal sides of themselves that may have been hidden, but are real. Borat and Ali G are funny but I looooooooove Bruno!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJFmgUYjdGE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzoRD1Qvm10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU8nhHYlQ-I&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frz58AMIktY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7aoDXwpI0Y&mode=related&search=

Christy
They can't handle Moyers - wow

They can't make this go away

This movie is a little old and obscure, I saw it when it was released, and the burkhas were in all the colors of the rainbow and quite wondrous to behold, blowing in the wind. You can kind of see them in the small photo. I remember it as being made by a Canadian woman originally from Afghanistan, but not sure.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0283431/officialsites

This one I searched for 27 years for and finally found it last Christmas for my husband - it's Iranian. It's tribal.
http://www.amazon.com/People-Wind-James-Mason/dp/6305869316

Now - help me out. What is the Farsi word for carpet and it was the name of a movie? It's on the tip of my tongue, and my husband's. It's such a beautiful movie.

Christy
Remember the business this morning about Saudi Arabia?
Have you checked out what's happening in Pakistan lately? It sounds really ominous. Musharaf isn't so popular and I find myself dreading either outcome - the military dictator remains in power or some fanatics take over. Some choice.

Karen
I've just watched the video. That is brilliant. I loved the pink burkhas too - and the carrying of the cardboard weaponry. It is a brilliant piece of satire. The pink was a real eye catcher because the whole point of the burkha is to take away any sign of a gender or sexual being - to stay invisible to the world - I think. And it is usually black or a fairly neutral colour - and occasionally white.

Perhaps these pinks ones were worn to honour the Code Pink women and their pursuit of truth and justice. It's a very clever piece and reminds me of that song to the tune of Heyyy O Daylight Come and We Wanna Go Home."

It was an animated piece that had Bush and Rumsfeld? singing - they looked everywhere and couldn't find Osama. I'm sorry that the makers of that one must have been quickly carted off somewhere to eat bread and water for such a treasonous cartoon.

They took a good chunk out of the beginning. It played right up til they laid out all clintons sins and completely blacked out the beginning of the discussion that I assume actually laid out the case against them.

By the time it had resumed it was already a philosophical discussion and an examination of logic.

BTW, not to rehash any of the Saudi thng, but you should check this out.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=1147

Regardless of the politics or ...past... we still have a very serious problem on our hands and it frightens me so badly we don't seem to know what to do about it.

It is a much scarier problem then Iraqi insurgents.

Will he take advice from his ally?

Brown's ally urges US to rethink policy
Patrick Wintour and Julian Borger
July 14, 2007

THE first clear signs that British Prime Minister Gordon Brown will reorder the nation's foreign policy have emerged, with one of his closest cabinet allies urging the US to change its priorities and saying a country's strength should no longer be measured by its destructive military power.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/browns-ally-urges-us-to-rethink-policy/2007/07/13/1183833772505.html

Woz
You are thinking of JibJab - I'll bet I can find it.

It's pretty old though.

Woz
You must experience this one, also old, which I was able to find somehow by remembering the title:

http://www.toostupidtobepresident.com/shockwave/chickenhawks.htm

Even more relevant than when it came out, probably just before the war.

I wonder when they practised. Well done, Iraq!

Iraqis celebrate soccer victory against Australia
July 14, 2007 - 10:36AM
Thousands of Iraqis poured into the street, dancing, chanting and firing shots into the air in celebration today of the Asian Cup win over Australia, a country many here see as an occupation force.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/asian-cup/our-pain-their-gain/2007/07/14/1183833813924.html

Thanks nmp

Just finished watching Moyers . So who do you think will be the statesman and stand up for what is right to do:country b4 party ?
I hope and pray the senate and congress was watching,esp Pelosi !! Now go get em'

Posted by: Christy at July 13, 2007 10:10 PM

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/

The blog is up and there's a short video of Moyers commentary at the end of the show online. Keep the link, however, because at some point they'll have a written transcript of the show online (likely in the next few hours, or at the very least by Monday), and this web site often has complete videos of various segments, so I hope they'll have a video of tonight's show online, too.

One way or another, you'll be able to get the show that was blacked out in your market!!!

Ha! Take that you censoring b@$t@rds!!!

I just watched the re-run of the earlier Moyers Journal.

For every sentence spoken by Nichols and Fein, a whole hour of discussion could take place just to educate people about the Constitution and impeachment and the excesses of Cheney and Bush.

My advice: Whether it's in transcript form or online video, study what was spoken about that entire hour... and email Moyers and ask for more, more details, more of everything... more, more, more about why those war criminals and liars need to be impeached...!

The whole hour is absolutely the BEST TeeVee I've seen since I can't remember when...!

John Dean | Harriet Miers's Contempt of Congress: Are Conservatives About To Neuter Congress?
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/13/2495/

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/13/mccains-florida-campaign-co-chair-arrested-for-solicitation/
McCain’s Florida Campaign Co-Chair Arrested For Solicitation
{{{So, okay. Allen (who was caught just before Chertoff's gut fluff) is very low on the totem pole, but the beginning of the video shows him in handcuffs, so it did my heart good to see at least one of these hypocritical twits in a perp walk.}}}

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/13/hardball-ed-schultz-talks-about-the-surge-impeachment/
Hardball: Ed Schultz Talks About The Surge & Impeachment
{{{Wow, amidst all the other crap, the word IMPEACHMENT was mentioned... I almost swooned.}}}

Is prostitution illegal in the US?

Posted by: woz at July 14, 2007 03:24 AM

Yes.

Posted by: woz at July 14, 2007 03:24 AM
Posted by: sparrow at July 14, 2007 06:59 AM

Well, with these exceptions...

Nevada is one of only two U.S. states that allows some legal prostitution; in most of its counties, brothels are legalized and heavily regulated. Any county with a population of fewer than 400,000 is allowed to license brothels if it so chooses.

In Rhode Island, the act of sex for money is not illegal, but street solicitation and operating a brothel are.

Transcript for Bill Moyers Journal RE: Impeachment

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07132007/transcript4.html

You might also be interested in this diary that corrects a mistake the diarist claims Moyers made RE: the Constitution.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/13/215029/036

I was so pleased to watch the Moyers program last night and see both sides of the political spectrum agreeing so fully on the absolute necessity of impeachment, and to have it on (somewhat) msm.

madame, I checked out that dailykos link. I loved the SchoolHouse Rock piece!

To see The Preamble, by Schoolhouse Rock on YouTube, go here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZUN74-9aPQ

Brings back memories, and touches the heartstrings.

BTW, Happy Bastille Day!

http://marseillaise.org/audio/mireille_mathieu_-_la_marseillaise.mp3

http://www.languedoc-france.info/06141202_marseillaise.htm

madame defarge
Thanks for reminding me!

Posted by: madame defarge at July 14, 2007 08:02 AM

THANK YOU for posting the link to the transcript. I've already copied and pasted the entire transcript into an email and am sending it to my Congress Critters.....

We need to remind them they work for us, not corporate sponsors, and even the 'PubliCONS need reminding that the extra powers claimed by Cheney and Bush will be passed to the next resident of the White House. If they don't want those extraordinary (and unconstitutional and unethical and illegal) powers to pass to a Democrat, they need to take heed and support impeaching the top two war criminals in this country....

We just watched the videos of the Moyers show and I feel energized and extremely pissed off.

Nichols and Fein together make the most powerful teachers we could possibly have. I think the videos ought to be required for anyone who is unclear on exactly why we need to move forward with impeachment:

So no future President EVER thinks for ONE SECOND that s/he can operate without checks and balances.

We the people have the responsibility to make Congress act. PattiF asks above, who will stand up for us? For the Constitution?

THEY ALL WORK FOR US, REMEMBER??

WE must stand up. Standing up can take many forms, but it cannot take the form of passivity and shopping.

HOW WILL YOU BE STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRACY THIS COMING WEEK?

My emergent plan: I think it's time to speak directly with Members. I know where they buy milk, and where they go for happy hour, and where they lunch and maybe it's time for 30-second encounters.

What do you all think? Any suggestions for the elevator message?

Me too Karen.

It energized me.

I suspect when all this is written down somewhere, it will be Bill Moyers credited for slamming impeachment back onto the table.

Speculative but interesting. What if Japan starts buying oil from Iran that is not in dollars? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/7/14/45659/7340

From the Headlines You Do Not Want To see Department

U.S. troops battle Iraqi police

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq;_ylt=AtHh5SJEq3lxDAAENblYa1TMWM0F

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/14/bill-moyers-roundtable-on-impeachment-of-bush-cheney/
Bill Moyers’ Roundtable On Impeachment Of Bush & Cheney

{{{For those who have not seen the entire show, this is a good teaser. I'm going to be Nonny-One-Note and obsessed about this until I make sure everyone I know has seen the show in its entirety and/or has read the entire transcript - which I copied and pasted into an email and sent out to my Congress Critters and to practically everyone I know. It's been ten or more years since I've seen any TeeVee worth the time to sit and listen to, watch, tape, and pay attention to; it's the MOST important hour on TV I've seen since 2000, that's for sure (only thing missing was any mention of HR 333). NMP, lift the ban on TeeVee for this one hour, please, or else view the whole one hour show online, not just little teasers like the above. You will love this show! I had the same reaction as Karen: "energized and extremely pissed off" - all at the same time.... Fein is absolutely delightful in certain sections because he's so excited about the subject he can't get the words out as fast as his brain is working. This is "educational" TeeVee at it's BEST, and we need more of it!!! Constitutional scholars, historians, lawyers, et al., need to keep on having intellectual discussions about this until Congress Critters get a CLUE and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IMPEACHMENT - Dickie first, then Georgie immediately thereafter. The fact that someone has FINALLY discussed impeachment in an intelligent fashion, no bobblehead spin and shouting matches or stupid neoCon brainwashing rhetoric, has me totally jazzed (and crying because this discussion should have happened before November '04...).}}}

This is great, check it out...

A dispute over a backyard wall in Whatcom County has reached all the way to the White House, with President Bush firing International Boundary Commissioner Dennis Schornack over his handling of the matter.

But on Wednesday Schornack rejected his dismissal by the commander-in-chief.

In a strongly worded letter to Bush, Schornack said the International Boundary Commission (IBC) is an independent, international organization outside the U.S. government's jurisdiction. Schornack wrote that according to the 1908 treaty that created the IBC, a vacancy can only be created by "the death, resignation or other disability" of a commissioner.

Thus, Schornack said, the president cannot fire him.

"I am unable to recognize the authority of this communication because I don't believe that you would knowingly act beyond your authority, outside the law or to otherwise jeopardize the national security of the United States," Schornack wrote.

A dejected Schornack said Wednesday: "I am ashamed of my government." Bush nominated him to the IBC in 2001.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003785546_border12m.html

HAHAHA! HAHAHA!

IRAQ DEBATE: ANOTHER CHICKENHAWK EXPOSED

I was listening to NPR's All Things Considered on Thursday and they had a long report on all the things happening in Congress on the war in Iraq. Both House and Senate Democrats are pushing up the debate on Iraq and Republicans in the Senate are starting to back off their support of the President.

But there was a clip of the House floor debate and one Republican Representative, Phil Gingery, was quoted as saying the whole thing was a partisan excercise blah, blah,. So I looked up Gingery's bio on C-Span. Lo and Behold!! This staunch supporter of the Iraq war has NO military experience but, worse, he avoiding serving in Vietnam: Gingery graduated for college in 1965, he then went on to Medical School.

I am guessing educational draft deferments for Rep. Gingery. So I called his offices in Washington and Georgia to ask about his LACK of service during the Vietnam war. In Washington, a young man answered the phone, and I started to ask this guy about Gingery's Vietnam service. I must say that I get very tired of talking to barely competent young people in Washington D.C.. I started to ask this guy about Gingery's avoiding the Vietnam Draft etc.. he wasn't too happy about having to answer this question.

Then I started to get more frustrated with this unhelpful Washington guy and I asked him " If the war in Iraq is so important what you doing answering phones in D.C.? What aren't you in Iraq?" Well that got him really mad and he hung up on me. So I called Gingery's office back, I told the guy I wanted to speak to someone over the age of 25 ( i.e. an adult who knows something). Well he got mad at that and hung up. Of Course, I called back, this time I got a second young fella (prime military age) answering the phone. Again I asked to speak to someone over the age of 25. He hung up on me after a short exchange.

I called back, again (this was probably #4 phone call to Gingery). This time I got a young woman. I started to tell that I had just been speaking to two young men in her office. She slammed down the phone.

I then gave up on the Washington office and called Gingery's office in Georgia. Once again, I get a kid answering the phone - 18 years old. And once again, I ask to speak to someone over 25 years of age...

etc... etc...etc...

Posted by: Ralpheh at July 14, 2007 01:20 PM

What is the matter with speaking with young adults?

Dear Sir or Ma’am,

I am writing on behalf of the People for Good Chocolate for World Peace (PGCWP). We are a nonpartisan think tank promoting the use of good rich chocolate to create world peace and justice for all. Our nonprofit began when we witnessed the merging of two opposing camps and it is now one of the greatest couples of all time. These couples frequently broke out in fistfights and clubbing until eventually rifles were taken up and threats of nuclear missiles were used--all because these two couples could not work out their differences. That’s when we stepped in—the PGCWP—and we introduced the warring sides to the joys of rich dark chocolate and soothing milk chocolate. Now, the pair remains forever bonded and beloved and peace exists thanks to our hard work. Which couple began this amazing journey? Wouldn’t you like to know!!! Since their bonding, we have seen other mergers between such enemies as cherry and chocolate, peanut butter and chocolate, coconuts and chocolate, and caramel and chocolate.

Furthermore, studies have shown that good chocolate sooths anger better than a bottle of tranquilizers does. Other study’s have shown that peace between combatants improve when combatants share a glass of cheap red wine and a rich dark chocolate torte. (We have seen no studies that show if white wine has the same causational effect; however, multiple studies have shown that mixing beer and chocolate is just wrong …)

It takes lots of money to run this think tank. Hence, we are forced to ask for all rich and poor men and women to contribute generously to our fund. We are nondiscriminatory in nature. If you prefer milk chocolate over dark chocolate or white wine over red wine, we basically don’t care. Just send us your money.

We accept PayPal or you may opt to send your checks to “People for Good Chocolate for World Peace.”

Thank you for supporting the People for Good Chocolate for World Peace.

Sincerely,

T. Coco Bean
President and Chief Executive Officer PGCWP

I watched it and my reaction was this: it's about time!

We have to laugh at this whole big mess or we will all just have to cry about it. The media presents it like it is all so black and white and scary. Suddenly this video says things are pink and ridiculous! I agree with that guy above who says it is ballsy to not take these freaks seriously. Its making fun of the bad guys not the victims.

More laughter and less anger is no bad thing!

Posted by: Ralpheh at July 14, 2007 01:20 PM

What is the matter with speaking with young adults?

Posted by: V at July 14, 2007 01:37 PM

@@@@@

Nothing, but the "young adults" in Washington are stuck up, arrogant, unhelpful and surprising uninformed and ignorant. They are not interested in giving you any information - they are interested in getting rid of your phonecall (while trying to give you the impression that they are helping you or actually listening to you). And this is by design because Congressmembers - many of them - do not want to give out any information on anything.

In the office of one of the most hawkish members of Congress, Senator Joseph Lieberman, the young folk there have no idea what is going on Iraq - nor do they seem to care. So I tell them: so many civilians died today in Iraq or yesterday; so many American troops died today or this week.

BTW: Senator Clinton's office is similarly clueless and unhelpful on many questions. I asked several of her district offices about the pardon of Mark Rich in which Senator Clinton's brothers - Hugh and Tony - received money, $200,000, from Rich for consulting services. Once I got by the young interns (who were in high school or junior when Rich received his pardon), I spoke to the "office manager". Even she was unaware of the issue or the major recent articles about the pardon.

Conyers Sets Deadline for Miers Subpoena Compliance
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071407A.shtml
James Rowley of Bloomberg reports: "The US House Judiciary Committee threatened former White House Counsel Harriet Miers with criminal contempt charges if she continues to defy its subpoena to testify about the firing of eight US attorneys."

Excerpt:

Committee Chairman John Conyers of Michigan gave Miers until 5 p.m. Washington time on July 17 to say whether she will comply. Miers failed to appear yesterday to answer questions under oath before the panel's commercial-law subcommittee, which then voted 7-5 along party lines that her refusal to testify had no valid legal basis.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070714/ap_on_el_pr/kucinich_edwards_debate
Kucinich rips Edwards on debate remarks
THE WHITE HOUSE HAS A MANUAL FOR SILENCING PROTESTERS AND DEMONSTRATIONS
By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive
After a myriad of stories about people being excluded from events where the President is speaking, now we know that the White House had a policy manual on just how to do so.
http://www.alternet.org/rights/56528/

Iraq PM: Country Can Manage Without US
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071407D.shtml
The Associated Press's Bushra Juhi writes: "Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saturday that the Iraqi army and police are capable of keeping security in the country when American troops leave 'any time they want,' though he acknowledged the forces need further weapons and training."

Dear Mr. or Ms. Bean,

We're sorry, but the Democracy Cell Project is chartered as a 501c3 non-profit educational corporation. As such we cannot allow this site to be used for advocating or opposing specific pieces of legislation, individual politicians or election campaigns, or soliciting funds for any cause or organization.

As a result, despite the clearly bipartisan nature of the PGCWP's advocacy across chocolate color lines, and even though its mission extends to include vinicultural outreach as well, we cannot permit you to come here and ask our community members for donations to your organization.

Of course, it is possible for a non-profit educational entity such as ours to support and even to co-sponsor certain types of initiatives on an in-kind basis. The technologies and products that you mentioned in your comment above might fall inside of those guidelines.

In order for us to ascertain their eligibility, we will need to examine them closely and in person. So please send representative samples of all the types of wines and chocolates that you looked at in your studies to us here at DCP World Headquarters, c/o Karen Bradley and Richard Bell, Washington, DC.

Bear in mind that proper testing and assessment will require the involvement of a broad cross-section of DCP community regulars, so be sure to include appropriately large quantities of each. (Note: we do have access to a loading dock here, so multiple pallet-sized shipments are acceptable on our end.)

Thank you for your interest,
Team DCP

Totally on-topic and in context too, even:

http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/38188

http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2007/07/saturday-cartoons_14.html

More funnies... don't know whether to laugh or cry....

Posted by: DCP mods at July 14, 2007 04:59 PM

Don't forget to include me in the testing of the products and services!

We are off to see SICKO--more upon return!

I just got out of the new Harry Potter movie.

Just in case you are wondering, yes, it totally sucked and I hope I never have to sit through such confused and pointless drivel ever again.

Now about that elevator message Karen...

How bout..

"IMPEACH THE BASTARDS!!!! ...PLEASE?"

Or you could just bring up the natural anger you feel over their constant inability to simply do their jobs.

Either way, just let it fly and let the cards fall where they may.

"Excuse me, Congressmen Blah Blah... Exactly WHY are you here in this elevator when you should be in the House impeaching the president?"

Or

"Why are you buying tomatos, does impeachment require tomatos...?"

I came home from an all-day class and barely got in the door and here comes my husband who has been listening to Air America and is completely outraged and talking nonstop. Apparently they were covering those returned Iraq soldiers that The Nation interviewed or wrote about. I haven't had time to read the link or catch up on that but now I am completely dreading it. He's talking about people shooting randomly into vehicles and pulling partially clothed people out of bed in the middle of the night. Obviously shocked and outraged but I barely got in the door.

Woz,

I would like to go back to something I said to you a while ago, and apologize.

As a poet I am normally very aware not only of what words I use, but also their rythm, inflection, and tone.

Something I said to you came out totally wrong when I reread it, and I would like to apologize for it.

When you suggested georgie be tried by the Hauge I responded by saying I wanted him tried by US Citizens for war crimes. I said by Americans, for Americans.

The exact words I used to say it seemed unnaturally nationalistic of me, and it has bugged me ever since I reread that post.

It was not a nationalistic impulse, and I will try to clarify why. Those of us here, I believe, understood it to mean we NEED the clensing of such a trail, that WE need to take responsibility and expand our laws to directly deal with those of our own that commits war crimes.

By Americans, for Americans, was more of a desire to take responsibility for our own.

But to an Aussie I am certain it sounded very greedy of me. It was worded wrong.

I do not usually regret my words, but if they did offend you, I am sorry. I am just as good with the Hague.

I do not care who tries him for war crimes, but when he is tried, I want to see every moment of it. I want every one of us to see every sorry thing he has done dragged into the sunlight to be disinfected.

I am not sure else how to humble an entire nation of people who are overly nationalistic.

NMP.

It is bad. Very very bad.

Don't eat before you read it.

Christy
Just read your explanation and that makes sense to me. I am very opposed to nationalism because I believe it has done alot of damage in the world, but taking responsibility is another matter entirely.

About the soldiers, I had been waiting for someone to interview more of them, in a situation where they could be honest. It makes me think back to Vietnam. Today at my class, I met people who work for the VA and they told me that most of the patients they see have head injuries from IEDs.

Before this is over, we will also be pushing around wheelbarrows full of worthless dollars whenever we want to buy a pair of shoes, like in Germany after Hitler bankrupted them.

I do not know about you guys but the paralells between what georgie is doing and what hitler did totally freaks me out.

We forgot Poland, didn't we?

Chertoff's rumbling, farting, gut wasn't enough, it seems. Gee, one would think a PBS show talked about IMPEACHMENT for a whole hour, or that poll ratings have tanked for the top two war criminals, and a couple of 'family values' 'PubliCONS had been caught with their mouths open or diapers on, or that one Iraqi leader said they could do quite nicely without the US and we could leave any time (well, it's been pretty insulting to the Iraqi people, after all, that the US "leaders" have talked about adult people like they're backward children who need instructions about how to staff a police force or a military force, as if they didn't have that before Bu$hCo's illegal invasion)... so out comes yet another Bin Laden video, right on CUE, even, just in time for Lamestream Media to take off after the pretty red herring...!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_video
Bin Laden appears in new al-Qaida video
Here fishy, fishy! We want to talk about you and your pretty sequin-like fins.... Georgie and Dickie absolutely must be able to use you to justify their 'ter'rist' fear- and warmongering rhetoric.... Go ahead and spread the love, Lamestream Media... the little boy Georgie who has hurt feelings over his low poll ratings only mentioned in his last news conference that he wants to be loved....

Gag-g-g-g-g! I need a barf bag. I'm making myself sick....

I didn't see McCain strolling down the street to the market in any of these clips.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/video/page/0,,2125978,00.html

NonnyO
I had watched that bin Laden video. I noticed it somehow at Raw Story. I'm not sure I've ever watched one before. It had some kind of cheesy special effects at the end. The disembodied glowing head floating up in the trees, fading to this sort of neon green. That video could have been made at any time and the Arabic was going a little too fast - didn't quite catch it all. LOL (Speaking of "dark humor ..")

Posted by: Christy at July 14, 2007 08:31 PM

No apology necessary Christy. It obviously bothered you a lot more than it bothered me. It didn't bother me at all. I'm thicker skinned than that. I like your passion, Christy. Always have enjoyed your comments.

The print media is almost as full of low points as the electronic media. I don't consider Michelle Malkin vs Ted Rall, Kucinich vs Edwards' and H Clintons' miked mumblings or Huckabee vs M Moore weight loss comments news.

One might think the fact that thousands of government troops are going up against Pakistani Jihadists following Musharaff's ouster of a popular judge news, or perhaps the massing of troops along Turkey's border with Kurdish Iraq, or the fact that Japan may soon buy Iranian oil in yens instead of dollars, or weapons inspectors returning to Iran at the same time Condi had been trying to squeeze them out with sanctions. Does none of that affect us?

I also got a queasy feeling watching Bastille Day festivities on the little teeny webcams because Sarko broke tradition by riding in a military jeep (all 5'1" of his little Napoleanic body) with the "unified European Army" of 37 nations behind him, flanked by red, white and blue jets bursting up into the sky in the pattern of an arrow, with the Arc de Triumphe in the background. Four o'clock in the morning and cars were still racing around all over the city. They also had an unprecedented free open air concert and the featured artist did the soundtrack for a movie called "Folie des Grandeur," which I realized means "Delusions of Grandeur."

Now I feel that our going to see Pearl Django and wine tasting followed by Chinatown 100' dragon and the Princess/Scholarship pageant will be a little tame.

From the REAL news department....

Britain's most senior generals have issued a blunt warning to Downing Street that the military campaign in Afghanistan is facing a catastrophic failure, a development that could lead to an Islamist government seizing power in neighbouring Pakistan.

Amid fears that London and Washington are taking their eye off Afghanistan as they grapple with Iraq, the generals have told Number 10 that the collapse of the government in Afghanistan, headed by Hamid Karzai, would present a grave threat to the security of Britain.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2126817,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=12

No one ever answered my question.

What did pulling out of Vietnam look like?

Do we pull out equipment or ground forces first, just grab our boots and go, or what?

What happened to the Vietnamese people right after we pulled out?

Is Iraq going to look like that?

And what about our soldiers in Afghanistan...? We can not leave them there on the brink of 'catastrphic failure'.

ok Christy..you win.
I thought impeachment was the wrong thing to do until Dems got some legislation passed and actually solved a few problems.
But since anything they do will be blocked by the 60 votes, they may as well try to impeach.
Seventy votes are needed so it probably won't happen.
We gotta pressure 10 senators up for relection.

And while all that is happening over there, our Federal Police are determined to make us as fearful as the northern hemisphere. They arrested a *suspected* terrst. He's a doctor working at the Gold Coast Hospital.

After the bungled London bombing and the Glasgow airport near catastrophe, British police arrested several people - mostly doctors. One doctor in Britain, is related to the alleged terror here. They are cousins and they shared a flat in London. Our Aussie terrist, was apprehended at Brisbane airport, trying to escape to India on a one way ticket. His mobile phone was being used by his cousin in London.

Before leaving London for Australia, our thoughtful terrist gave his mobile phone to his cousin. He left his sim card in it because his cousin would be paying out his contract.

After 2 weeks detention and a complete upheaval of every single item in his flat and workplace, he has now been charged with his crime of terror.

Recklessly providing material support (a sim card) to a terrist organisation!

And they're deadly serious. Why was he leaving? His wife had recently given birth in India and their baby was ill. Why a one-way ticket? He didn't know how long he'd be staying in India. Honestly, you have to give our politicians and our Federal and State Police credit for their creative logic. Talk about oxyMorons. Intelligence and Police. Yeah. Right.

Bloody hell - I've given my sim card and phone to people all over the country. I don't like mobile phones. And I can spell terrorist. Police and politicians can't say it.

What happened to the Vietnamese people right after we pulled out?

Posted by: Christy at July 14, 2007 09:41 PM

Christy, the ALP won a Federal Election on the "troops home immediately" if they won. And the troops came home. There were many more Aussie troops in Vietnam than there are in Afghanistan and Iraq. It took several more years for Americans to withdraw. So, I'm not sure how it worked out there.

BB, go for moderates to flip.

The actual busheviks can not be flipped. They are either implicated or brainwashed and can not be turned.

60 votes is a filibuster, isn't it?

BB I would rather try and fail then to tell my kids no one tried.

Another issue for you to be looking at. It seems that many soldiers who have returned home to the US from Iraq and Afghanistan and are diagnosed with PTSD, are being discharged for "having a preexisting mental condition". This way they're not covered by the promise to take care of them when they return. If they want treatment, they have to pay for it. PTSD is not covered in the health part of the deal.

US troops tell of 'brutal side' of Iraq war
July 15, 2007 - 10:38AM
US war veterans' eye-witness accounts of brutal events in the war in Iraq have been published in a US magazine.

The leftist weekly magazine The Nation has devoted its entire July 30 edition to the testimonies of 50 US troops shocked by the heavy civilian casualty toll exacted by the US-led occupation of Iraq.

"Just the carnage, all the blown-up civilians, blown-up bodies that I saw ... I started thinking like, 'Why? What was this for?"' said army specialist Jeff Englehart.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/us-troops-tell-of-brutal-side-of-iraq-war/2007/07/15/1184438120925.html

From Wozs link

"The weekly said it was the "the first time so many on-the-record, named eyewitnesses from within the US military have been assembled in one place to openly corroborate ... a brutal side of the war rarely seen on television screens or chronicled in newspaper accounts".

Only the Los Angeles Times daily has written about The Nation's issue, which on Saturday continued to go unreported by the country's main television stations and newspapers."

Black.

Out.

You are correct Christy...I won't insult you by saying you are right (lower case r)

Christy
I'm interested in that too (how did we get out of Vietnam?)

Ho Chi Minh chased the South Vietnamese and Americans out of Saigon and thousands of refugees. We left with our tail between our legs. From what I can tell, they had everything out of there inside of a year.

The war cost $121 billion and we have already spent almost half a trillion on this one. Remember the famous $87 billion Kerry voted for then against (or was it the other way around that the propaganda went)? Wasn't that just for 6 months or so, maybe 4 years ago?

"White Christmas" was played to mark the US withdrawal - I'm not sure why.

$2000/for a studio apartment in NYC
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003788877_rent14.html
off-topic yet not - I'm sure it's somehow the fault of He Who Shall Not Be Named

As far as VN, after my military time ended, I joined VVAW and demonstrated until the POWs came home. I dropped out after that until 2000.
I remember we left our non-high-tech stuff and bailed; leaving the locals and Aussies to be the targets (sorry woz). We destroyed aircraft but left a lot of armor and supplied; which were about equal to the Soviet stuff.
The North rolled up the South rather quickly and then started the reducation camps. Iraq has a trio of powerbrokers so the situation is a bit different..
Woz may correct me but the big loosers were the Cambodians because we bombed the crap out of them as we were leaving. The people were angry and supported their own butcher Pol Pott.
A lot of folks died but VN fought for over 30 years and to my recollection the North took over and subdued the South. Many folks went into prison and back out quickly and life went on.
Thailand was the big winner as they became an international powerhouse for US businesses looking for cheap labor.

Battlebob
Yes and didn't Pol Pot kill over a million? Don't they have museums with walls made of skulls, thanks to him? I imagine Iraq will have it's own Pol Pots but we will have no choice and it can happen whether we leave or stay. We are only prolonging the agony by staying.

My father-in-law was a big war supporter until my husband told him that South Vietnam's Premier never really asked us to help. That shocked him. He had assumed we had at least been asked to fight the North Vietnamese.

Good to see your text, Battlebob!

As for Thailand, weren't they also overrun with refugees? & we have "boat people" dating back to the '70s, not to mention Hmong people from Laos, who could not read there or here. They do sell glittery stuffed animals and dried opium pods.

In the mid 90's, I was in Bangkok working to set up a FAB for a chip country. There seemed to be a pretty good sized middle class.

Don't forget we welshed on a deal with the VN to pay them 10 bil as war reparations. That is how we got the POWs back and the thing settled. We bribed our way out, then reneged on the deal.

I thought most of the vote peole where Vietnamese?

BB, trust me, it gives me no joy to be correct.

I would rather he just be a good man and we have honest people looking out for us.

I am, however, relieved that we have finally reached a desperately needed concensus.

There are literally so many reasons that could stand alone in impeaching him... WHY no longer really matters, it only matters that we can agree on how to cure ourselves and we run, not walk, to save ourselves.

As was said last night on PBS, 'Impeachment is not a Constitutional Crisis, it is the CURE for it."

boat people..geees

We also cut funding for the VN war.

I think the referance to White Christmas refers to the massive Hanoi bombing over Christmas.
The conventional wisdom is this made the VN decide to quit but my take is they accepted our bribe.

"The North rolled up the South rather quickly and then started the reducation camps."

Was it a slaughter? Did ethnic clensing ensue?

Something tells me as many interested partes as there is in Iraq, we can not just pull out without all out hell breaking loose.

I mean, to stay is to delay the inevitable, but,.. can Iraq itself survive intact? It seems Vietnam was less vulnerable to outside forces.

I did not realize we would leave so much behind, as far as equipment.

Wait, if the North rolled up the South then that means any puppet government we had set up must have been crushed after we left right?

If we leave Iraq will Maliki be overthrown?

Will anything we did hold up or will it all collapse?

I mean, to stay is to delay the inevitable, but,.. can Iraq itself survive intact? It seems Vietnam was less vulnerable to outside forces.

Posted by: Christy at July 14, 2007 10:39 PM

Vietnam was THE FRONT of the Cold War at the time. Much as Iraq is THE FRONT of the Terror War. And like Iraq, a magnet for a lot of much larger forces that saw opportunities in the conflict for a power play of one sort or another.

I find it deeply ironic that Iraq was not the center of the Terror War until we made it so. As Al-Qaida was not such a formidable enemy until we created the conditions for it to grow into one.

V
Do you think the "flypaper theory" could be working in reverse?

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0861796.html

Pretty condensed but you can read here about US withdrawal and see that it was a messy scenario, just as we can expect as we extricate ourselves from Iraq at whatever speed.

After all this, they should have known better. Many of us who are not in anyway military experts, government officials or economists but merely regular citizens surely did and we warned them at the top of our lungs!

Actually China invaded VN after we left and VN beat the crap out of them.

VN is a farming country and people gotta eat. The VN folks I talked to said they went to prison...said the right things...and left. People did die bu VN knew they needed the populace to feed everyone as no one was giving them food stuffs. USSR has always had troubles feeding their own.

The South VN government disappeared.

In Iraq, the locals do not trust Maliki or us. They see him as our lacky and we do everything possible to show everyone he is under our thumb.

Here is a really really good timeline, really thorough. Someday something like this will be written about Iraq. I keep hearing that we will be there, in some capacity, for at least a decade. & what about the fourteen permanent military bases? & if the troops come home, what about the equal or greater number of private contractors?

http://www.vietnamwar.com/timeline69-75.htm

Hey BB, I know it sucks to finally get there, and I wish I had the words that would make it feel more comfortable, but I don't.

Thomas Jefferson had them. If nothing else, TRUST Thomas Jefferson.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government ...

--Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence, 1776

When I get tired, or doubt, those words always comfort me.

Battlebob
I always heard that the Viet Cong hid out in tunnels. In my mind, I visualized these really regular tunnels that were purposely dug.

When I was in northern Thailand, I was taken into caves that seemed to go on forever underground, and they were naturally occurring.

I wasn't far from the Golden Triangle.

There were golden Buddhas deep in the caves. We walked for miles underground.

It occurred to me then that surely there must be similar underground passages in Vietnam and the locals would have known them intimately.

I also saw remnants of what the Thais and Burmese did centuries ago from the backs of elephants. I saw whole abandoned holy villages full of Buddhas that had been beheaded and the gold leaf removed.

Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the flowers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the flowers gone?
Girls have picked them every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young girls gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young girls gone?
Taken husbands every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the young men gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the young men gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the young men gone?
Gone for soldiers every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards every one
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?

Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time passing
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Long time ago
Where have all the graveyards gone?
Covered with flowers every one
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?

1961 Pete Seeger

"Actually China invaded VN after we left and VN beat the crap out of them."

Holy Crap, your not joking...?

I have never heard anything remotely like that.

The text books I was reading must have been written by Fox news.

NMP thanks for the links. Very interesting stuff.

Christy
Too bad Bush can't find Vietnam on a map.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/11/17/world/17cnd_vietnam.650.jpg

http://www.ridingsun.com/files/ridingsun-bushInVietnam2.JPG

Something tells me as many interested partes as there is in Iraq, we can not just pull out without all out hell breaking loose.

Posted by: Christy at July 14, 2007 10:39 PM

But Christy, hasn't allout hell already broken loose? And yes, it can get worse before it gets better. BUT they will have their own real government and not some folks put in there for America. Like in Palestine. When the US didn't approve of Hamas even though it gained overwhelming support in their last election, the west was called upon to starve (cut funding) them out of power and give it back to the other mob. The ones the US et al have restored funding to.

In other words ..... democracy is what we insist you have. But you MUST elect our choice of government and not your own. Until this entire Iraqi government has been overthrown nothing will improve. And Bush can't allow that overthrowing to happen. He has stakes in this Iraqi administration.

I have no reference to any of this. It is simply my point of view.

Sorry battlebob - I was writing when you posted about the Maliki government being mistrusted. I agree with you. Both will have to exit, for any sign of peace to emerge.

Woz
Will I agree with your point of view because I think so-called "democracy" is according to their definition.

There are plenty of repressive regimes on this planet that they do very little about.

It's selective. Iran had a democratically elected leader and the US government at that time didn't want him.

You can go back to 1976 and see congratulatory articles written by American journalists about Saddam Hussein, rising new star of the middle east.

He was even called a "visionary."

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/07/10/christopher-hitchens-1976-saddam-a-visionary/

This is my favorite part:

Thirty years ago, Hitchens was hailing the secular socialist Saddam as the greatest Arab ”visionary” of his time: today, he hails Saddam’s overthrow by the US as an act of “liberation,” and this even as the horrifically bloody aftermath continues to inflict terror on the prostrate peoples of Iraq. What changed?

Nothing, really: it’s just that, back in 1976, it looked like the Third World tyrants, “secular socialists” like Saddam, were winning. Today, it looks like the US is winning. As Orwell noted in his “Second Thoughts on James Burnham,” a certain kind of intellectual worships power, and will ally himself with the strongest brute out of “idealistic” idolatry, and a sense of invincible power.

Posted by: not my president at July 14, 2007 11:10 PM

My friend and I often talk about the tunnels of the Nth Vietnames. How brilliant. A tiny impoverished nation and the biggest power in the world failed to defeat them. And here, it's happening again. We rush on in assuming that we are all powerful and completely forget to consider the inner drive of one's own culture and spiritual connection with land.

We were fighting communism, not the North Vietnamese. Our own citizens were brainwashed into believing that we had to fight them there so we wouldn't have to fight them here. And even though they won, it looks like they weren't coming for us at all.

As Orwell noted in his “Second Thoughts on James Burnham,” a certain kind of intellectual worships power, and will ally himself with the strongest brute out of “idealistic” idolatry, and a sense of invincible power.

Posted by: not my president at July 14, 2007 11:27 PM

Yes, in the beginning, many British were awed by Hitler's capacity to march through Europe and take more and more territory. A few hundred years earlier the British themselves didn't leave a tiny corner of the planet untouched and unclaimed if they saw it first. Even when the land was actually inhabited, indigenous people weren't considered to be human people, so the theft of the land was perfectly acceptable to them.</