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The Barbarians at the Gate?
Last week’s revelation that our Pentagon (it does belong to us, the taxpayers, after all), had paid two sisters in South Carolina $998,798 for shipping for shipping two 19-cent washers to Fort Bliss earlier this year has provoked the usual barrage of outraged clucking.
But before we get our moral outrage fully in gear, I’d like to propose a small toast to the creativity of the Corley sisters, wishing them well on their tour of the federal prison system. After all, what did they do that any red-blooded market fundamentalist might feel called upon to do, once they realized that the Pentagon had created an automated payment system for any shipments to combat areas or U.S. bases that were labeled “priority” ?
It’s as if the sisters watched the first half of Office Space, when our heroes cook up a scheme to skim the rounding errors off every transaction, a sum they are sure will never be noticed. But the Corleys apparently did not finish watching the movie. Unlike the cubicle stiffs in Office Space, they reportedly started very small, and when the Pentagon paid their early bills, they sent in bigger bills. As one federal agent put it, “As time went on they got more aggressive in the amounts they put in.''
Too bad for the Corleys that they were stuck in South Carolina. With such ambition, they would have been much safer, and richer, conducting financial depredations from a Wall Street aerie.
The Corleys just choose a tactic that happened to be a little too far on the side of illegal, unlike 2006’s happy hedge fund managers. In 2006, three hedge fund managers took home over $1 billion on the year, according to Alpha magazine's new list of the top 25 fund earners.
And unlike the hedge fund managers, at least the Corleys actually delivered some real worth for their payments, even if was only a couple of screws or washers. It’s hard to know what the hedge fund managers have delivered to us, although all the evidence points to little more than more sophisticated gaming of the financial system, despite all the blather about creating liquidity, etc. etc. etc.
In his book The End of Faith, Sam Harris delivers a blistering attack on religious fundamentalists of all stripes, pointing out the harrowing costs that the followers of such beliefs have exacted on their fellow human beings over the centuries.
But while Harris warned us about the dangers we would face if religious fundamentalists took over the world, he was aiming at the wrong target. Fundamentalists have already taken over the world: market fundamentalists. We don’t have to wait for the extremists from whatever religion is on the march to imperil the world; market fundamentalists have already created an economy that is destroying the natural world upon which all life depends. And in the latest house/subprime mortgage/hedge fund debacle, they have unleashed as much destruction as the leader of any crusade or jihad.
The founders knew well from recent history how dangerous the mix of church and state could be to the rights of individuals, and put the 1st Amendment into the Constitution to limit the damage that conflating the two powers could produce.
But there is no amendment that protects us from the dangers of mixing market fundamentalism with the state. In fact, we have elaborated an obscene body of law based on the pinhead of a remark by a Justice in a Supreme Court case in 1886 (Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company) under which we provide the full protection of the law to corporate “personhood.”
The world we live in now is the whirlwind we have reaped by granting such enormous power to entities that in their near immortality and financial resources dwarf the power that individuals can bring to fight against them.
The Depression gave market fundamentalism a fairly nasty black eye, and produced a flood of legislation to limit some of the worst excesses of the 1920s. Yet starting with Ronald Reagan, successive administrations and Congresses have systematically eased or destroyed these limitations (like the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933) which prohibited commercial banks from underwriting securities. President Clinton signed the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999 which abolished the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933. There had been 12 attempts in the previous 25 years to kill GS, and over $300 million spent on lobbying, according to a Frontline report on the entire sordid history.)
The barbarians are not, as President Bush and Vice President Cheney would have it, at the gates. It’s much worse than that, and all the guns and bullets in the world cannot protect us from their fury.
The barbarians are inside the gates. Market fundamentalists rule every major financial institution, in the public sector and the private sector. Their money rules on Capitol Hill, where Congress has been making the world safer and safer not for American citizens, but for corporations and the finance industry.
*********
For much more information about the dangers of market fundamentalism, check out the POCLAD, the Program on Corporations, Law, and Democracy. POCLAD has both great analysis and a program for attacking the foundations of market fundamentalism.
Another truly excellent source for information about the growing inequalities of wealth and income in the United States is Too Much: A Commentary on Excess and Inequality.Too Much is edited by Sam Pizzagati, a long-time labor journalist and activist. His latest book, Greed and Good: Understanding and Overcoming the Inequality That Limits Our Lives (Apex Press, 2004), examines just how concentrated wealth is poisoning everything we hold dear, from our health to our happiness.
You can sign up for an eye-opening newsletter from Too Much: the latest issue features an analysis of the latest IRS figures on incomes.
I was thinking of one thing -
Back when communism and capitalism were locked in the Cold War, the competition of ideologies forced capitalist economies to treat its workers well, to prevent the workers from supporting a turnover to communism. That's why the Europeans built their welfare states, and the Kennedy-Johnson years built an expansion of worker benefits for the US as well.
Now that the communists are out, and capitalism is the only choice, the capitalists are free to screw over its workers at will. That's why Americans lose the few precious work benefits they have, and even Europeans are voting for the likes of Sarkozy.
The madness of the market fundamentalists is only one symptom of the capitalist monopoly. As the capitalists will say it themselves, with no competition, they have no incentive to innovate or be nice.
And to come back to my pet issue - immigration - the W regime has selectively admitted immigrants stuck in the Cold War mindset. For them, anything less than market fundamentalism is COMMUNISM and unacceptable. These people are stuck in such time warps that they still talk about the Soviet Union and its continuing threat.
This could be a critical story from California today for 2008:
"A proposed ballot initiative to change how California awards its presidential electoral votes has initial support from voters, according to a Field Poll released Monday, "
Sacramento Bee
William Proxmire used to have an award for these kinds of bondoogles. I hope some of us are not promoting socialism or perhaps I am misreading. It is that kind of talks that scares the heck out of those who oppose universal healthcare, which is not socialism, but good pro growth responsible capitalism.
CHENEY'S MOTHER OF ALL FLIP-FLOP's VIDEO #2 at You tube:
Cheney in 1994 on Iraq
01:23
Added: 6 days ago
From: karinmoveon
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Pentagon to shut down controversial database
Anti-terror program criticized for storing information on peaceful protesters
WASHINGTON - (AP) The Pentagon said Tuesday that it will shut down an anti-terror database that has been criticized for improperly storing information on peace activists and others whose actions posed no threat.
It will be closed on Sept. 17 and information collected subsequently on potential terror or security threats to Defense Department facilities or personnel will be sent by Pentagon officials to an FBI database known as Guardian, according to Army Col. Gary Keck, a Pentagon spokesman.
Keck said the Pentagon database is being shut down because “the analytical value had declined,” but not because of public criticism of how it was used. Eventually the Pentagon hopes to create a new system — not necessarily a database — to “streamline such threat reporting,” according to a brief statement issued Tuesday.
more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20375361/
Posted by: Bubba at August 21, 2007 11:43 AM
I've always believed that in order for capitalism to work, the masses need to have some wealth to be a player in the free market. Otherwise, free market breaks down. And this includes giving the masses some of the benefits they need - such as universal health insurance.
Of course, to the market fundamentalists and crony capitalists, this very notion is socialist.
Matt Stoller calls Bush administration a gang of criminals on C-Span's Washington Joural
http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp
?Cat=Series&Code=WJE&ShowVidNum=9&Rot_Cat_CD=WJ&Rot_HT=206&Rot_WD=&ShowVidDays=100&ShowVidDesc=&ArchiveDays=30
Washington Journal Entire Program
Matt Stoller, OpenLeft.com, Founding Partner
Liz Mair, New York Sun, Columnist & Blogger
8/20/2007: WASHINGTON, DC: 3 hr.
Matt Stoller, OpenLeft.com, Founding Partner
Matt Stoller, OpenLeft.com, founding partner takes a look at politics, public affairs, and other issues in the news.
45 min.
Liz Mair, New York Sun, Columnist & Blogger
Liz Mair, New York Sun, columnist & blogger a look at politics, public affairs, and other issues in the news.
51 min.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 21, 2007 02:04 PM
It also might be called "compassionate".
Slogans Heroes
Richard,
Isn't the Carlyle Group one of those fundamentalist corporations, you're speaking about? And how convenient that the Bush's and the Saudis are hand in hand in it.
http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/
Suz,
The Carlyle Group is an exemplar group, yes, but the entire corporate empire is built around the principles I wrote about, above.
Richard, driving the car
It will be closed on Sept. 17 and information collected subsequently on potential terror or security threats to Defense Department facilities or personnel will be sent by Pentagon officials to an FBI database known as Guardian, according to Army Col. Gary Keck, a Pentagon spokesman.
Keck said the Pentagon database is being shut down because “the analytical value had declined,” but not because of public criticism of how it was used. Eventually the Pentagon hopes to create a new system — not necessarily a database — to “streamline such threat reporting,” according to a brief statement issued Tuesday.
more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20375361/
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 12:28 PM
Oh MY, the data on such dangerous criminals as, well....Cindy, David S., Ray McG, Col. Ann, and hey, maybe even US will now be stored in a program called GUARDIAN?? Run by the FBI?????
I hope you all feel ever so much safer now. I know I do...
MONTEBELLO, Quebec (CNN) -- President Bush on Tuesday acknowledged a mood of "frustration" hanging over Iraq's besieged leadership -- which is presiding over a fractious, paralyzed government stymied by boycotts, bickering and bombings.
At a press conference during his visit to Canada for the North American summit, Bush was asked about a statement from Sen. Carl Levin that Iraq's parliament should oust Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki and his government when it returns from summer break in two weeks.
Levin, D-Michigan, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, called for al-Maliki's ouster after a trip to Iraq last week.
Bush noted some progress but said that the "Iraqi government's got to do more through its parliament to help heal the wounds of years -- of having lived years under a tyrant."
"The Iraqi people made a great step toward reconciliation when they passed the most modern constitution in the Middle East, and now their government's got to perform," Bush said. "And I think there's a certain level of frustration with the leadership in general, inability to work -- come together to get, for example, an oil revenue law passed or provincial elections."
Bush said that the "fundamental question" facing Iraqis is "will the government respond to the demands of the people?"
"And, if the government doesn't demand -- or respond to the demands of the people, they will replace the government. That's up to the Iraqis to make that decision, not American politicians."
moron...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/bush.iraq/index.html
WTF did he say?
CHICAGO, Illinois (AP) -- A federal appeals court upheld former Gov. George Ryan's racketeering and fraud conviction Tuesday and refused to grant him a new trial in the biggest political scandal to rock Illinois in decades.
Attorneys on both sides were left trying to determine if the 73-year-old former governor, once the state's most powerful Republican, would now have to report to prison immediately.
Ryan was convicted last year of racketeering conspiracy, fraud and other offenses for taking payoffs from political insiders in exchange for state business while he was Illinois secretary of state from 1991 to 1999 and governor for four years after that.
Prosecutors said he had steered state contracts and leases to insiders and used tax dollars in his political campaigns.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/08/21/gov.convicted.ap/index.html
The barbarians are inside the gates. Market fundamentalists rule every major financial institution, in the public sector and the private sector. Their money rules on Capitol Hill, where Congress has been making the world safer and safer not for American citizens, but for corporations and the finance industry.
Posted by dickbell at August 21, 2007 11:02 AM
Excellent post Dick, and darn right on.
Those chicks really had some balls did'nt they, Unfrikingbelievable
moron...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/bush.iraq/index.html
WTF did he say?
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 03:56 PM
impetant little thug
Cliff Schecter's Republican Sexcapades 8/9/2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYnkI6B6xc&sdig=1
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 03:56 PM
I think he just said that they have to shut the **ck up and enjoy 40 more years of the rapin' and killin' 'cuz they had been raped and killed for so long before.
If you ask me, Moses got stuck having to lead the Jews through the desert for 40 years, but had Moses seen a better way, he would have taken it.
Posted by: karen at August 21, 2007 03:49 PM
A great thread header Karen. Last week, someone else wrote under your name.
So when do I get to write under yours or Richard's name?
Can't wait. (Just wait till you see what I write when I can hide behind someone else's name! Muahahaha)
Hey! Richard wrote this thread header all by himself, while I sipped coffee with Casey!
You can always tell Richard's writing--it is full of history and background from his vast store of social and political history.
Mine usually references my own recent exasperations and encounters.
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 03:56 PM
So, the most modern constitution in the Middle East is so primitive, it not only has the death penalty on the books, but also condones executions of everyday citizens?
What a joke.
Posted by: karen at August 21, 2007 05:05 PM
Oy. My mistake. I thought you said Richard drove the car.
Still...can I write under someone else's name? It could be fun!
Rossi.
Did you say Petes family was renting an island for $250,000 for a birthday party?
I mean, you did say it, I just want to clarify what the meaning of is...is.
I knew his family was loaded, but he is a gardener for gawds sake!
Ok they are very BIG gardens...but still.
Renting an island!? For a BIRTHDAY PARTY!?
Wow. Tell Pete I just discovered we have a child together. And tell him I said...Leo who?
Nevermind. He already knows I can't live without my Leo.
Sigh.
Nevermind. He already knows I can't live without my Leo.
Sigh.
Posted by: Christy at August 21, 2007 05:25 PM
Yeah it true, Branstens island for a week, darn it all they could have taken me, I'd be good now you I don't know about. the two of us together we could get into big trouble, they did it five years ago for his 85th.
Sighhhhhh
Sorry, had to get the kids to karate.
Pete and me were planning a safari once. A photo safari.
It was decided I would get to hold the gun though, in case any lions came around. At some point I do believe a plot was hatched to feed my man to them, giving us time to escape, thereby leaving us alone in the jungle. Naked like the natives...or something like that.
He almost talked me into it.
But..I decided being alone in the jungle with Pete would probably be even more dangerous for me than my man.
Speaking of barbarians..... I love the way the picture on this thread looks like Rove.
:0)
I thought that pic looked like cheney.
Toll in Iraq Bombings Is Raised to More Than 500
By DAMIEN CAVE and JAMES GLANZ
Published: August 22, 2007
One week after a series of truck bombs hit two poor villages near the Syrian border, the known casualty toll has soared to more than 500 dead and 1,500 wounded, according to the Iraqi Red Crescent Society, making them by far the worst coordinated attacks since the American-led invasion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/22/world/middleeast/22iraq-top.html?ex=1345435200&en=be8e65e5159322fc&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
They left the survivors buried to die in the rubble, because they did not have the resources for a large scale rescue effort.
This story does not touch on it. They are ignoring it.
They left hundreds of people, to die in the rubble. God forgive Us.
Off track already - sorry. But what is going on here. No. No. No. We're hoping that a change of government before December 31st will bring our troops home. We do have mercenary troops there also. I guess they play by a different set of rules.
Australia under pressure over Iraq role
August 22, 2007 - 8:49AM
An incoming US Democratic president would look to Australia to keep it's troops in Iraq as long as possible, say advisers to the leading candidates Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama.
Australian military help would also be welcomed by a Democratic administration.
Michele Flournoy, who was a defence strategist in former president Bill Clinton's administration and has advised Hilary Clinton - the current frontrunner for the party's presidential nomination in 2008 - said a Democratic administration would welcome help in training Iraqi troops in riskier deployments than their current duties.
More - http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Australia-under-pressure-over-Iraq-role/2007/08/22/1187462307279.html
This doesn't seem like pressure - just a simple request. But of course Howard who is full of pomposity would bow to his King George and ask "how many" then double it, just to be certain the grovelling was hitting its mark.
Posted by: Christy at August 21, 2007 07:31 PM
I thought the cartoon corporate guy looked familiar. You're right - it's Rove.
Richard thanks for the header. Obama has left me cold on several issues lately but he does have one thing right - Noone should accept large scale donations from corporations in DC. It would be far better if your candidates weren't going to be chosen on the money they've raised. All the raised money means is - who has the most debt to be paid back in perks? So, the best choice would be the person who raised the least.
To me, that is not a model on which to base the choice of leader of the nation - yours or anyone else's.
This doesn't seem like pressure - just a simple request. But of course Howard who is full of pomposity would bow to his King George and ask "how many" then double it, just to be certain the grovelling was hitting its mark.
Posted by: woz at August 21, 2007 07:36 PM
Darn right on woz
This doesn't seem like pressure - just a simple request. But of course Howard who is full of pomposity would bow to his King George and ask "how many" then double it, just to be certain the grovelling was hitting its mark.
Posted by: woz at August 21, 2007 07:36 PM
Darn right on woz
It is waY past time to send the Aussies home from our mess, and bring in UN peacekeepers.
Since the US Justice system can no longer be trusted in any way, we should step aside and allow International Law to trump Us.
Not sure they can quell the violence but their very presence would return us to some sort of normalacy and precedent.
The dick and georgie show should be turned over to the Hague. We can no longer internally resolve this matter.
We can not wait for him to be impeached, he needs to be arrested.
ASAP.
georgie turned the entire government into a republican election and war machine.
And obviously it does no good to appeal to nancy, what a waste of time while people are dying.
We should, because it is untrustworthy, not have any faith in our Constutitional system whatsoever. We should try to appeal to an International body of law.
Seriously, can we, as citizens of the USA, ask the war crimes courts of Germany to enact an investigation of our own leaders for war crimes?
If we can't appeal to the Hague, then Germany is the only other place I know where war crimes can be worked out through a legal system.
(CNN) -- Fred Thompson, the all-but-announced Republican presidential candidate, suggested Tuesday that the nation was in denial when it comes to the threat of terrorism.
"I don't think that yet as a nation we have come to terms with the nature and the extent of the threat facing this country," Thompson said while addressing the annual convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Kansas City, Missouri.
Calling terrorism "a global threat" to the United States, Thompson pointed out that he thought the United States was at a crossroads and told the veterans "it's time that we had a frank discussion in this country at the highest levels with both parties as to what it's going to take and the unity we're going to need" to battle terror.
Thompson also faulted those calling for a troop withdrawal from Iraq, saying it would hurt the overall fight against terrorism.
"Some people in this country apparently think that if we can pull out of Iraq, our problems are going to be over. You and I know better than that. We know that Iraq is an important front in this war," Fred Thompson said to an audience of combat veterans on Tuesday.
moron...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/thompson.obama.vfw/index.html
ummm, frankly Cue Ball, NOBODY has said our problems would be over if we leave the global disaster BUSH, his minions, and his blind followers CHOSE to cause... what WE are saying is there is a better, SMARTER way to defend this nation than this debacle.
ummm, frankly Cue Ball, NOBODY has said our problems would be over if we leave the global disaster BUSH, his minions, and his blind followers CHOSE to cause... what WE are saying is there is a better, SMARTER way to defend this nation than this debacle.
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 08:18 PM
Kerry said it in the 2004 Presidential Debates against the WANKER,just no one wanted to listen to him, they thought they preferred to have a beer with the WANKER.
Unfrikingbelievable I still can't believe that bit of brainless idiocy coming from the Leading Western so called democracy in the world.
No offence to the smarts on DCP
Darn Kerry for not taking that freak of nature down in 2004, when he should have, I dont think I will ever get over that night. It lives in my mind with every new tradegy that comes from those corrupt neaderthals residings in Washington and the White House.
Time for a fag and a Bicardi, I think maybe a few Bicardis might be the thing.
A few hours ago, I was in line to deposit a check for my fascist sister, at Bank of America.
The TVs were tuned to MSNBC, and it loudly proclaimed that an anti-war Democrat now supports staying the course in Iraq as long as possible, after seeing "progress" in Iraq.
I forgot the Democratic representative's name, but he hailed from Washington State.
That pretty much made my day.
And of course, it was Bank of America, a major Republican supporter that refuses to advertise on Air America - so I had to expect tainted news.
Unfrikingbelievable I still can't believe that bit of brainless idiocy coming from the Leading Western so called democracy in the world.
Posted by: rossiann at August 21, 2007 08:34 PM
You are not alone.
The worst thing is, this country has been sold to a very wicked countryman of yours - Rupert Murdoch. And Reverend Moon from Korea too.
But then, the Republicans have had this ENTIRE country up for sale for years. The Japanese now own our garages. The Chinese own our playpens (and mortgages). The list goes on.
Posted by: Christy at August 21, 2007 07:31 PM
So much for the "improvement" in Iraq.
We can not wait for him to be impeached, he needs to be arrested.
ASAP.
Posted by: Christy at August 21, 2007 07:45 PM
Trouble is Christy, it's never going to happen. There are so many country leaders that need to be jailed - eg Sudan, Zimbabwe and a host of other African nations - that it should have happened many years ago. We're stretched to the limits in East Timor, in our own region, so it really hurts to have them far away in a place we truly do not belong.
Like you, I wish some tiny semblance of justice for all people and if it happens I will be there cheering.
woz,
And Uganda too - now it's holding popular rallies to exterminate its homosexuals.
If that's what they'll do, maybe the whole country needs to be punished.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6957336.stm
Posted by: monkey at August 21, 2007 08:18 PM
Terrorism isn't a recent thing. It is sprinkled throughout every society on the planet and has existed through the ages. Hell, feeding Christians to the lions wasn't just sport, surely. It is as prevalent as organised crime - the mafia and all other criminal groups. They usually attack their own and other similar groups - in turf wars like gangs of youths.
Responding to terrorism with terrorism narrows the divide somewhat. Bombing the crap out of a country and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and leaving them without power for 4 years - sounds pretty terrorising to me. We commit crimes upon the very people we claim to have liberated.
Terrorists fighting terrorists. Our countries leaders have turned our children into terrorists in uniform because it serves their purpose.
And of course, it was Bank of America, a major Republican supporter that refuses to advertise on Air America - so I had to expect tainted news.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 21, 2007 10:01 PM
Ally Hilliary is declaring you should stay on Huffington the last time I looked because thing are going so much better.
Ally, yes, Uganda too. Some great things are happening in some African countries - but there are still some nightmare leaders. We don't know how to stop Rupert from his media controls. He's the CEO of the Thought Police. Feeding us drivel and lies. I'm just glad he doesn't live here, so I don't have to see his slimy face on newspapers or tv - except when he takes over a major paper like the Wall Street Journal. He has to do something that big to be mentioned here.
We have so many utterly ridiculous scandals amongst our own that we're glad to part with him.
The worst thing is, this country has been sold to a very wicked countryman of yours - Rupert Murdoch.
Ally he's yours you keep himm. we don't need his likes here Thank You very much
But then, the Republicans have had this ENTIRE country up for sale for years. The Japanese now own our garages. The Chinese own our playpens (and mortgages). The list goes on.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 21, 2007 10:03 PM
And Australia are starting to buy your roads, seems like it
Terrorists fighting terrorists. Our countries leaders have turned our children into terrorists in uniform because it serves their purpose.
Posted by: woz at August 21, 2007 10:21 PM
Amen to that
And Australia are starting to buy your roads, seems like it
Posted by: rossiann at August 21, 2007 10:35 PM
We do have Japanese-branded, Australian-built cars on American highways.
In any case, gross mismanagement and poor government policies have left consumers with little choice but to buy Japanese.
In Los Angeles, I think Toyota outsells Ford 3 to 1 - it sure looks like it. So much so, that if you talk about a "domestic car," you better mean Toyota or Honda (unless you're in Little Havana West, in which case you better mean Hyundai or Kia).
Ally he's yours you keep himm. we don't need his likes here Thank You very much
Posted by: rossiann at August 21, 2007 10:34 PM
But I don't want him either!
And I certainly don't want Reverend Moon!
Clinton: New Iraq Tactics "Working"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/21/clinton-iraq-tactics-wo_n_61272.html
Posted by: rossiann at August 21, 2007 10:43 PM
Thanks - now I know who I won't vote for in the primaries.
Ally and Rossi - I have a friend who is convinced that Hillary will win and that will be a good thing. Bill Clinton has said some incredible things about Iraq, on TV here - like, "We're there now. So we should make a real job of it." Nuh - Hillary's mumblings about Corporate gifts being pure, together with her original vote on the war and not giving real ideas of concluding the biggest mistake in the world's history - prove she'd be a dreadful President with too many favours to repay.
We don't want Murdoch.
Can't we just have one more Mel Gibson and two more Nichol Kidmans instead?
Here's to the Happy Couple -- and a 10 Point Bump
Can I possibly be cynical enough to suggest that this is timed around the election? Could it be that the children's book Jenna Bush wrote with her mother is a bit of pre-wedding character repair for a girl who seems well-versed in the difference between shots and shooters?
The administration gives great and ongoing credence to the old saying: just when you think you're too cynical, you realize you're not cynical enough.
Let's run down just a partial list: the swift boaters, the smearing of John McCain in South Carolina, the mythical WMD, the phantom National Guard service, Brownie at the levees, Valerie Plame, secret torture sites, Pat Tillman, the stem cell veto, the fired federal attorneys, an attorney general with the memory of a gold fish, the surgeon general who was tossed out of the club house for taking on causes that upset the Republican right, and assorted other assaults on our trust in this administration's motives, methods and competence.
With that body of evidence on the record, I'm not discounting anything. Hey, if international state visits don't work any more because much of the world hates us, a White House wedding just might.
Ok -- politics is politics. And this president would not be the first to make use of photogenic offspring.
But we have this inconvenient problem of young people the same age as the happy couple dying on the roadsides and in the alleyways of Iraq. I wonder if those at risk will be gathered around the television to watch the festivities.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peggy-drexler/heres-to-the-happy-coupl_b_61329.html
I am cynical enough to believe they would do it, and I also think that it will be another anchor that will drown the B*****d
"Trouble is Christy, it's never going to happen."
These are strange times darlin.
Never say never.
prove she'd be a dreadful President with too many favours to repay.
Posted by: woz at August 21, 2007 10:54 PM
Darn right
We don't want Murdoch.
Can't we just have one more Mel Gibson and two more Nichol Kidmans instead?
Posted by: Christy at August 21, 2007 11:02 PM
Hahahaha Christy - why not.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 21, 2007 10:01 PM
It's Congressman Brian Baird. He's been brainwashed and is being used for propaganda purposes. Same with a couple of journalists from one of the big papers. They were moderate Dems but are being called "antiwar," which they never really were. A bunch of them were taken to Itaq on a junket and sequestered with Petraeus and Crocker, who themselves don't even get to report but Bush and the White House will do it for them. The Democrats will capitulate and we will be in Iraq at least far into 2008.
I put two and two together after hearing some of this crock of shit on NPR. This country now has a masterful propaganda unit, with or without Rove. Millions will lose their houses, we will have war without end, and we will have a draft.
How Political Psychology Explains Bush's Ghastly Success.
Death Grip
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20070827&s=judis082707&c=1
I don't understand why people continue to blame Kerry. He had NO party support, not to mention media support. The party didn't back him up when the Swifties made their rounds.
They just sat on their behinds and allowed their candidate to be smeared. Plus, it was McAuliffe's job to protect and secure the votes and interact with the SOS.
And he was also running up against a fear-minded public and a press that continuously protects a lame-duck president. I am not saying that mistakes weren't made, but the biggest thing is that the 08 candiates have party/media support, Kerry (or Gore) didn't.
I don't understand why they all get a free pass, but Kerry, regardless of how much good he does, is will never be good enough for anyone.
I don't understand why they
That last line should have been edited. :)
Kerry not only had the support of the party, he had enough votes to get elected.
No it was not his fault they rigged the election and swung the total, but his concession was his decision to make.
If I knew by the morning of November 3rd the election had been highjacked, then certainly Kerry was aware of it, yet he conceeded the one fight he promised to fight all along.
Kerry himself is the one who failed miserably at taking control of the press. He blew every opportunity to simply lay it out there and tell it like it is!
I do understand the good Kerry has done, and I also understand why people, certainly people here would want to defend him.
But We did our jobs in 2004, and elected him PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
He chose to walk away rather than fight for it. We were ready to fight for it. We still are. We are still HERE.
He walked away. Nothing good he ever did will be remembered as clearly as that moment when they walked away and left us naked at the foot of a tyrant.
Deserved or not deserved, he chose that legacy.
You are missing the point.
His party did NOT back him up. The media did NOT back him up.
I don't know why people continue to blame ONLY him, but let the people who should have been doing the hard work off the hook. Where is Edwards in all of this, how come people let him off the hook?
It's a shame that people still hate Kerry for not doing what THEY wanted him to do, but instead can't seem to look at what he has done or doing. He could cure cancer and AIDS and people would still complain.
As I said, no matter what Kerry does, it will NEVER be good enough for some.
Hope everyone is happy to find the PERFECT candidate for 08.
And he never walked away from anything. There is NO lawmaker in DC that has exposed more government corruption than Kerry.
About the election problems, he has spoken about them more than once. The first time was on MLK day 2005, but he was ridiculed for doing so. And on the Senate floor.
There are still lawsuits in Ohio. It's up to the SEC to decide on what to do. But, Kerry is expected to do all that ALL by himself. Never mind the rest of the party or the 08 candidates that have been silent on this issue.
And to the blog community here: I am sorry for the caps, but I am sick and tired of the double standard towards the Senator in the blogsphere.
I may get in trouble for this, but I think there is NO democrat that has been put under the microscope more than Kerry. He is expected to do more than most Dems, if not the ones that have been silent, on the fence on key issues or just ones that have less progressive records.
And yet, when he does something, he still gets ridiculed, dumped on, and slammed by "Democrats" while others just get free passes.
I can understand people are mad about 04, but I would rather put the blame where it belongs: Bush, Rove, GOP, corporate media, and a Democratic Party and chairman that failed the candidate the second time around.
It's too bad that people didn't turn off the corporate media and look at C-SPAN more in 04, but it was their choice to be punch-drunk with spin, not mine.
JMHO
Indie, I think the media was already in the hands of the wealthy republican voters. That media would never have exposed the facts about the muck throwers. Those who used their daddy's power to keep them safe at home were never exposed. And the media feeds in a frenzy on slander. It can't exaggerate enough. The media is a sponge ONLY for the slander and bigotry. It abandoned truth many years ago.
Across the world, we didn't know whether it was true or not. And when something like that is said, it immediately sows a tiny seed of doubt that germinates from that point on.
You are right. At the very worst time of all, John Kerry was abandoned by the political machine of his party that should have gone into action instantly.
In Australia we wouldn't have believed that anyone would sink so low as to throw that kind of dung all over JK when it was not true. And I think the same is true of Americans. They have far more self respect than to sink to criminal slander. But they did. Just that. And even though it was completely untrue, slime sticks, and doubt overtakes reason and you make a very bad judgement. It can happen again, but there will be far more scepticism from now on.
I do understand the good Kerry has done, and I also understand why people, certainly people here would want to defend him.
But We did our jobs in 2004, and elected him PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
He chose to walk away rather than fight for it. We were ready to fight for it. We still are. We are still HERE.
He walked away. Nothing good he ever did will be remembered as clearly as that moment when they walked away and left us naked at the foot of a tyrant.
Deserved or not deserved, he chose that legacy.
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 12:44 AM
I agree with Christy
woz,
That's all I am saying. I am not saying that Kerry didn't make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the campaign. What I object is that people continuously blame and put down the man for doing something that he had NO party or media support on while the entire party, including the 08 candidates, didn't back him up.
I didn't like the concession either, but what can you do if the party or the media doesn't support you?
I hope the truth about 04 will be revealed someday, but anyone who thinks that the media will go easy on the 08 Democratic candidate is in for a rude awakening.
It's pathetic that people blame Kerry for not telling the truth in 2004. I and other supporters watch the rallies on C-SPAN and the debates. He told the truth and responded to the Swifties, but the media buried everything he said/did and edited down the best soundbytes.
As I said, B. Clinton won in 92 and 96 because he had media and party support, Kerry didn't.
And I agree with your post also. :)
It's possible that people still defend him because he got more votes than any other presidential candidate in history. He also has a loyal group. He also has stuck his neck out on various battles while the ones that were should have been doing the REAL work, stood on the sidelines.
I appreciate that. It's too bad some stay stuck in the past and slam the man, regardless what he is doing now.
And yes, let's just keep throwing the stones and blaming Kerry and no one else for the mess we are in instead of the criminal buffoon, and his GOP ilk that caused all this mess.
We are just playing into Rove's hands by doing his homework for him.
I am sorry, but that's the way I feel.
It's too bad that people didn't turn off the corporate media and look at C-SPAN more in 04, but it was their choice to be punch-drunk with spin, not mine.
JMHO
Posted by: Indie Liberal at August 22, 2007 01:42 AM
I didn't turn on John Kerry. Indie Liberal I still get all his mail, but the presidency was his at that time in history, and for all the people that worked and counted on him, to take America in a new direction, it is what they will remember.
I agree with what you say about the democratic party they did not stand by him or Gore, but it was his moment in time to fight for what was right. and it will not come again, I do not think
It is very sad, things could have been so different
rossi,
I am sorry for misreading your post.
I understand when you say it was his moment to fight and it was lost. What I am saying is that how could he have fought for his moment when no one would support him or that right?
No one is expecting Hillary, Edwards, Obama or other 08 candiates to fight or do the heavy work all by themselves, but I guess Kerry is only expected to do that.
That is why I am brutally bitter about this whole situation. This is why I am defensive. People are continuing to take pot shots at the man when he has had no proof at that moment. I would have loved for him to have that proof, but what I have been saying is that he didn't have a party or behind him. He had only himself, his family, and his friends.
I am sad that he isn't in the WH, but continuing to blame the man and not the slime machine only helps Bush and his cronies.
I still think that he would have been a better President than any of the upcoming candidates by a mile. Sadly the world will have to accept a lesser person, to try to bring some sanity to a world gone mad, created by the curruption that rules the White House, the House of the people
I understand everything you are saying Indie, I was there for the long haul, I just never conceived that there could be such corruption in a voting system, It was inconceivable to me living in a country where every person has to vote like it or not.
A country who tells the rest of the world how to vote, and corruption and the Supreme Court the so called highest Court in the land, gave Georgie the White House for 8 years.
UNCONSCIONABLE
I still think that he would have been a better President than any of the upcoming candidates by a mile. Sadly the world will have to accept a lesser person, to try to bring some sanity to a world gone mad, created by the curruption that rules the White House, the House of the people
Posted by: rossiann at August 22, 2007 02:35 AM
I agree with you. And I apologize again for misreading your last post. :)
anyone who thinks that the media will go easy on the 08 Democratic candidate is in for a rude awakening.
Posted by: Indie Liberal at August 22, 2007 02:13 AM
Well, lets face it - Hillary is the media darling it seems. No wonder she insists on receiving donations from DC corporations. If she's not the candidate, it will be very hard.
In 2004 and still - I watch Jim Lehrer's News Hour every afternoon after the German World news. John Kerry's campaign was given a long segment every day. I'd never heard of him before that. He impressed me. He was articulate, passionate, energetic and seemed to have a dignity and integrity about him that I found very appealing.
I understand the feelings of betrayal some of his supporters feel, but the slime that he was drenched in during the campaign would have penetrated his very soul.
Sure. We expect the American President to be stronger than that. When his own party gave no indication of support on the cowardice issue, he must have hit a real low in his own integrity and self-worth. People who'd served with him didn't come out to support him at first. And when they did, they weren't given the media moments they should have been given.
At least dems are prepared for that kind of menacing to come during the next campaign. I really hope one of those who can't raise mountains of money is the chosen Democratic candidate. JK will be a good support for whoever it is. Noone has ever been put through the kind of muck he was. At least I don't know of such serious, direct barbs, that could have ripped his progress apart. He would have learned a very hard lesson then.
And Christy, I suspect that no one is more angry, hurt and upset with JK than JK. Vietnam was a very bad place to be. Different from Iraq, but just as bad. Just as many appalling criminal acts took place in Vietnam as in Iraq. I can only imagine the pain that the accusations caused him. Only his fellow servicemen would have any idea of his feelings at the time.
I just read a good piece that doesn't really give answers, but it was during the immediate aftermath of the 04 election.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6777696/site/newsweek/
I agree with you. And I apologize again for misreading your last post. :)
Posted by: Indie Liberal at August 22, 2007
No Apologies needed Indie Liberal, I think your Country went through despair so great that night in November,including a lot of people world wide, but I think we all deep down knew what was to come with that stolen election, sadly it makes you wonder if eight year of hell on earth, can ever be remedied.
Public Rejection, there was no public rejection of Kerry, untill he conceded there where exit polls that where right John Kerry won the 2004 election, America just did not stand by their exit polls, yet all over the World we are told by America that countries have to abide by the exit polls in a democracy, seems only America does not stand by its exit polling.
They are announcing a US helecopter down 14 US service men dead Iraq Air America cant find a link yet.
US chopper Iraq crash kills 14
THE US military said 14 American troops have been killed in a helicopter crash in Iraq but there were no indications it was brought down by hostile fire.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22289237-2,00.html
Taliban hackers phone UK soldiers' families
TALIBAN extremists are reportedly phoning the families of troops fighting in Afghanistan and telling them their loved ones are dead.
Afghan insurgents have been using mobile phone-hacking technology to extract phone numbers to target the families of British troops, The Sun newspaper reported today.
According to The Sun, a Taliban fanatic called the wife of an Royal Air Force officer and told her: “You’ll never see your husband alive again – we have just killed him.”
After calling the RAF, she was told that her husband was safe and well.
As a result of opposition forces using advanced technology to monitor calls made on mobile phones, British servicemen have been banned from using their phones.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22288355-2,00.html
Bush to invoke Vietnam in arguing against Iraq pullout
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- As he awaits a crucial progress report on Iraq, President Bush will try to put a twist on comparisons of the war to Vietnam by invoking the historical lessons of that conflict to argue against pulling out.
On Wednesday in Kansas City, Missouri, Bush will tell members of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that "then, as now, people argued that the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end," according to speech excerpts released Tuesday by the White House.
"Three decades later, there is a legitimate debate about how we got into the Vietnam War and how we left," Bush will say.
"Whatever your position in that debate, one unmistakable legacy of Vietnam is that the price of America's withdrawal was paid by millions of innocent citizens, whose agonies would add to our vocabulary new terms like 'boat people,' 're-education camps' and 'killing fields,' " the president will say.
The president will also make the argument that withdrawing from Vietnam emboldened today's terrorists by compromising U.S. credibility, citing a quote from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden that the American people would rise against the Iraq war the same way they rose against the war in Vietnam, according to the excerpts.
"Here at home, some can argue our withdrawal from Vietnam carried no price to American credibility, but the terrorists see things differently," Bush will say.
The White House is billing the speech, along with another address next week to the American Legion, as an effort to "provide broader context" for the debate over the upcoming Iraq progress report by Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. military commander, and Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador in Baghdad.
moron...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/21/bush.iraq.speech/index.html
I'm so pissed I could spit!
THE US military said 14 American troops have been killed in a helicopter crash in Iraq but there were no indications it was brought down by hostile fire.
Posted by: rossiann at August 22, 2007 04:38 AM
Yeah, like I'd believe ANYTHING the f*ckin US Military smokespersons say...
People Get Ready
Woz, to be honest, I was not born until 73 and I do not give a crap what happened in Vietnam.
We are not suppossed to blame JOHN KERRY for the failure of the JOHN KERRY FOR PRESIDENT campaign... but we are suppossed to blame everyone else INCLUDING the entire democratic party instead?
It is MY fault kerry lost?
Nope. Doesn't work that way.
"But, Kerry is expected to do all that ALL by himself."
And when we provided enough votes to elect him president.... What exactly was Kerry role suppossed to be?
"Hope everyone is happy to find the PERFECT candidate for 08."
The perfect candidate would be one who will not WALK AWAY and let our elections get highjacked.
Unfortunately, we are just as unlikely to get that in '08 as we got in '04.
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 07:26 AM
Oh, we're gonna get waaaay worse in '08...
Do you know what the 'double standard' actually is here?
We go on and on about republicans tolerating failure and even crimes, in the name of their party. We question why they never question members of their own party.
But let a democrat have a problem with another democrat, and all the sudden fellow democrats are putting your 'democratic credentials' in quotations.
We tell republicans to clean up their house, but yet we are not suppossed to address the fact our own is filled with failures and war profiteers.
Our own is just bursting with people willing to hold the door open for georgie while he loots and plunders our own house, but yet we are not suppossed to call those people out cause it will mean we are bad, bad, little democrats bashing fellow democrats.
Enough already.
We have a serious problem in our own house, and despite what republicans do, it is high time the democrats quit ignoring it.
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 07:50 AM
Actually Christy, I'm with you on all of this.
Justice argues for withholding Bush records
Says administration office not subject to Freedom of Information Act
Updated: 44 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - Opening a new front in the Bush administration's battle to keep its records confidential, the Justice Department is contending that the White House Office of Administration is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act.
The department's argument is in response to a lawsuit trying to force the office to reveal what it knows about the disappearance of White House e-mails.
The Office of Administration provides administrative services, including information technology support, to the Executive Office of the President. Most of the White House is not subject to the FOIA, but certain components within it handle FOIA requests. Last year the Office of Administration processed 65 FOIA requests.
However, the Justice Department maintained in court papers filed Tuesday that the Office of Administration has no substantial authority independent of President Bush and therefore is not subject to the FOIA's disclosure requirements.
The office has prepared estimates that there are at least 5 million missing White House e-mails from March 2003 to October 2005, according to the lawsuit filed by Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, a private advocacy group.
Missing or not?
The White House has said it is aware that some e-mails may not have been automatically archived on a computer server for the Executive Office of the President.
The e-mails, the White House has said, may have been preserved on backup tapes.
"The Office of Administration is looking into whether there are e-mails not automatically archived; and once we determine whether or not there is a problem, we'll take the necessary steps to address it," said White House spokesman Scott Stanzel.
more BULLSHIT here...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20387828/
Fire! Aim! Ready!
Make no mistake, the only reason dems will purge republicans in 08 is the same old reason. Because we are the lesser of two evils.
It will not be because our leaders are better or more moral than theirs, because they're not. It will not be because we are more effective, because we are not. It will not be because our leaders listen any better than theirs, cause they don't. It will not be becaused we were promised better days than these, because that promise has not been made. It will not be because they trust you any more than they do them, cause they don't. Not cause they promised to restore our Constitution, either, cause they are not even bothering to promise it.
It will be for no other reason than we are not republicans.
We are the lesser evil, for sure. But still evil none the less.
Do not doubt for a moment that is the ONLY REASON any dem will win in 08.
The problem is, we will still be living with evil.
WASHINGTON - Congressional Democrats are using subpoenas and other investigatory powers to expose Bush administration missteps and push for policy changes even as they struggle at times to enact legislation.
Backed by hundreds of hearings that compel the administration's attention but often draw scant publicity, House and Senate Democrats are leaving their stamp on a range of governmental matters, without passing a bill.
Congressional inquiries have prompted the Federal Emergency Management Agency to test trailers used by displaced hurricane victims for formaldehyde poisoning. They triggered a Justice Department investigation into Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' role in firing federal prosecutors.
Other probes spurred the Army to recover millions of dollars in overpayments to private security contractors in Iraq. And the mere threat of Democratic-run hearings prompted President Bush, after months of resisting, to submit a controversial warrantless wiretap program to a special court's review.
'More important than legislation'
Congress' oversight and investigative powers are especially vital to Democrats because a potent GOP minority in the Senate has kept them from passing legislation on issues such as immigration and an Iraq withdrawal plan.
"Maybe it's even more important than legislation," said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., a key player who chairs the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
Democrats' ability to conduct such hearings "has been the most important change since the 2006 election in terms of relations between the Congress and the administration," said Thomas E. Mann, a Brookings Institution scholar and co-author of a book on Congress, "The Broken Branch." MSNBC video
"I have no doubt the hearings have altered the course the administration has taken on a range of areas, including Iraq," Mann said.
The White House has complained bitterly about the sharp increase in congressional inquiries since Democrats took over the House and Senate in January.
"I would hope Congress would become more prone to deliver pieces of legislation that matter as opposed to being the investigative body," Bush said at an Aug. 9 news conference. "I mean, there have been over 600 different hearings, and yet they're struggling with getting appropriations bills to my desk."
Democrats call the inquiries long overdue after years of GOP-controlled congresses treating the administration with a light touch. "I don't think Congress is overdoing the oversight," Waxman said in an interview.
more...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20387829/
Worth repeating: "I would hope Congress would become more prone to deliver pieces of legislation that matter as opposed to being the investigative body," Bush said...
You know what...? Maybe that is the only way to take down george w. bush.
By taking down the democrats in our own party that have been war profiteering and enabling him all along the way.
Follow the money.
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - President Bush wants a nation running short on patience with the Iraq war to take a long view, comparing it to U.S. involvements in Asia that lost popular backing but eventually proved their worth and led to lasting peace.
"The ideals and interests that led America to help the Japanese turn defeat into democracy are the same that lead us to remain engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq," Bush said in advance excerpts of a Wednesday speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars.
"The defense strategy that refused to hand the South Koreans over to a totalitarian neighbor helped raise up an Asian Tiger that is a model for developing countries across the world, including the Middle East," Bush said.
"The advance of freedom in these lands should give us confidence that the hard work we are doing in the Middle East can have the same results we have seen in Asia - if we show the same perseverance and sense of purpose," Bush said.
-snip-
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., quickly dismissed Bush's position.
"President Bush's attempt to compare the war in Iraq to past military conflicts in East Asia ignores the fundamental difference between the two," he said. "Our nation was misled by the Bush administration in an effort to gain support for the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses, leading to one of the worst foreign policy blunders in our history."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20387818/
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 09:06 AM
Until there are massive, and do mean MASSIVE, protests and uprisings by the pathetic citizenry of this fat, bloated nation, ain't jack squat gonna stop what's goin down.
Pull up a chair... it's electric... boogie oogie oogie.
CNN QuickVote:
Do the lessons of the Vietnam war support President Bush's argument against pulling out of Iraq?
Yes 28% 5540
No 72% 14162
Total Votes: 19702
Mass demonstrations will be met by force.
Do any of us doubt that for a moment?
Again, it goes back to what we were talking about the other day. I think We, as a people, know something is different this time.
This ain't Vietnam...this is the terrifying last throes of a dying empire.
We all know if we go to the streets, georgie is waiting for Us, and he will KILL US in droves as thoughtleessly and recklessly as he got a million Iraqis killed.
Mass demonstrations are not going to work to do anything at this point, but spark a flat out Revolution. He is ready for us, complete with mass 'detainment' centers and new laws that let him declare anything a 'national emergency'.
The only way this can sanely be worked out now is through International courts and traditions.
We, the People, can no longer contain this situation internally. Our entire government has been turned on us.
He suspended Posse Comitatus and Habeus Corpus for a reason.
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 09:22 AM
F that, there's more of us than them (at least I thought there were), and the world will be watching on CNN. Let's see how the land of the free fares after gunning down hundreds of their own citizens. I'm ready for a revolution.
Or, I could just move to Vancouver and do the BC bud thang.
Canuck U.
I'll shut up now.
Oregon Truth Alliance is continuing to voice concern that previous events such as Noble Resolve have tended to "go live" (ie turn into a real terror event) in the past. It's probably a conspiracy but it has people in that area all up in arms & scared, moreso than the drill itself. It's all the secrecy and the fact that we don't do basics like protect our ports or inspect our merchandise from taints.
When the Pew organization polled the public shortly after 9/11 (a selected representative sample), they found that people were, for the most part, not willing to give up civil liberties in exchange for security and even less so if they did not trust their government. At that time, they trusted their government moreso than they do now.
Posted by: monkey at August 22, 2007 09:29 AM
Just returned from Canada & I'd move there in a heartbeat. Life seems so much more civilized there.
And they have great beer.
I was not born until 73 and I do not give a crap what happened in Vietnam. said Christy
That is the problem with Gen X'ers.
Christy
Boy the rest of your sentiment I agree about completely.
Kerry was expected to be the White Knight.
Later you talk about lesser of 2 evils but still evil.
All of this is what people are supposed to have LEARNED from Vietnam.
That's why I jumped on that (not on you).
Have to head out but also shaking my head and sighing and gesticulating after reading some of Woz's comments on the nature of terror.
Alot of wisdom.
David Letterman: Top Ten Top Good Things About Marrying Into The Bush Family:
10. Great deals on Fallujah honeymoon.
9. You’ll inherit President Bush’s extensive collection of Chuck Norris memorabilia.
8. It’s a good bet the wedding reception will have an open bar.
7. Might see Cheney shoot an old guy – still a reference, ladies and gentlemen.
6. Learning from Grandma Barbara how to spit chaw.
5. Every Wednesday is Taco Night.
4. What could be more fascinating than learning what makes Jeb tick?
3. If half the family hates you, you still have a better approval rating than George.
2. W can lend you the ‘Mission Accomplished’ banner to put up in the bedroom.
1. Little chance you’ll be the dumbest guy in the family.
To clarify, I am interested in what happened in Vietnam, just not as it relates to John Kerry. He was a loyal, able, and even courageous soldier, I admire him for that.
I, perhaps, said it too flippantly, but when it comes to Vietnam, all my life people have tried to explain it to me, and not a single one of them could answer WHY...why did it happen?
What happened in 2004 had very little to do with what happened in Vietnam.
Something completely different is happening here than happened when we were there.
I do care what happened then, and why. But I am more worried about the here and now.
And I would like to add, I apologize if saying it flippantly caused any hurt feelings.
I know many here are not only Vietnam protestors but vets too.
I do not mean to appear ungrateful for what you accomplished. I know many sacrifices were made, in the name of my future, and I was blessed to be born into the better nation you helped create.
I can only say I have no memory of it. It was so long ago, that everything has changed.
Me, too, I am ready for a Revolution, but I am desperate to never let it happen.
My childrens lives are at stake. So are yours.
We have to find a way out of this, and arguing about Vietnam is a waste of time.
... arguing about Vietnam is a waste of time.
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 10:09 AM
Which is why The Divider brought it up in the first place.
Diversion Perversion
"Which is why The Divider brought it up in the first place."
Amen Brother Monkey.
Amen.
Folks - just a little aside that has nothing to do with anything political. It's a really nice story about a 13 year old Aboriginal Tiwi Island girl who has moved to Melbourne for a year to get a better education. She won best and fairest in a footy match - mostly boys in the two opposing teams.
Christy - if you're still there, this story will really please you, I'm sure. There's a photo of Natasha on the Age front page, click on it to read the story.
http://www.theage.com.au
White House Manual Details How to Deal With Protesters
By Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 22, 2007; A02
Not that they're worried or anything. But the White House evidently leaves little to chance when it comes to protests within eyesight of the president. As in, it doesn't want any.
A White House manual that came to light recently gives presidential advance staffers extensive instructions in the art of "deterring potential protestors" from President Bush's public appearances around the country.
Among other things, any event must be open only to those with tickets tightly controlled by organizers. Those entering must be screened in case they are hiding secret signs. Any anti-Bush demonstrators who manage to get in anyway should be shouted down by "rally squads" stationed in strategic locations. And if that does not work, they should be thrown out.
But that does not mean the White House is against dissent -- just so long as the president does not see it. In fact, the manual outlines a specific system for those who disagree with the president to voice their views. It directs the White House advance staff to ask local police "to designate a protest area where demonstrators can be placed, preferably not in the view of the event site or motorcade route."
The "Presidential Advance Manual," dated October 2002 with the stamp "Sensitive -- Do Not Copy," was released under subpoena to the American Civil Liberties Union as part of a lawsuit filed on behalf of two people arrested for refusing to cover their anti-Bush T-shirts at a Fourth of July speech at the West Virginia State Capitol in 2004. The techniques described have become familiar over the 6 1/2 years of Bush's presidency, but the manual makes it clear how organized the anti-protest policy really is.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101662_pf.html
Posted by: Christy at August 22, 2007 10:54 AM
They hate us for our freedoms, huh?
Christy - Why Vietnam happened - we went to fight the commies there so they wouldn't come here and fight us at home. Communist Nth Vietnam had moved down into democratic Sth Vietnam - and once again, we belligerent lot from the west, couldn't accept such an outrage. No. No. We (Australia) went all the way with LBJ and blundered into that conflict in the same way as we've gone to Iraq and Afghanistan.
We lost in Vietnam.
They didn't come. To either America or Australia. Either that or they've been drastically delayed.
1fedupsimian - I know how you feel!
How on earth you manage to play with words first thing in the morning I don't know. But it's good to get a laugh out of our otherwise frustrating view of the world right now.
"Why Vietnam happened - we went to fight the commies there so they wouldn't come here and fight us at home."
See, I know you meant it as snark, but that is what I meant.
That is as much of a lie then as it is today. It is an empty talking point, repeated a million times. It is not truly an answer, but a generic version of one.
Yet, it is told to me by almost everyone older than me when I ask, WHY...why did our nation kill 3 million Vietnamese?
You don't send soldiers all the way across the world for some generic talking point/theory.
The only reason you commit to encounters like Vietnam and Iraq is MONEY.
Maybe I should have been asking the question a different way.
Who got rich off of lying us into Vietnam...?
Do you know why I think my elders are so loathe to approach that reality?
Because every one of the warmongering war profiteers got away with it. NOTHING was done to right the wrongs committed.
The shame of that is not the younger generations to bear. But we bear the brunt of its effects.
We have to come of age in the insanity of a nation run amok with military might, and even now we still can not get a straight answer about WHY so many were killed, why so many were sacrificed.
WHY did you let them get away with it?
Do you know what Vietnam is to me.... Lies, all lies. From beginning to end, lie after lie after lie.
Vietnam = lies and dead people. History has clarified NOTHING.
Now that Iraq also = lies and dead people, what happened in Vietnam is no longer even relevent.
What is happening now has done far more damage than anything inflicted on us in 1969.