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How Do We Balance Liberty vs Security?
For five years, the NSA has been reading email and tapping phones without a warrant, forbidden activies according to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978. Bipartisan Congress passed the "Protect America Act" (already nicknamed the "Police America Act") before the summer recess, to make such spying on citizens legal. (The latest excuse was that FISA had a backlog of foreigner-to-foreigner calls to approve.) The President can open the mail of private citizens, and the CIA can look at their financial records. National Security Letters can be sent requesting information on citizens from organizations such as libraries, under the Patriot Act. Organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union have filed lawsuits in federal court and filed Freedom of Information requests repeatedly, to expose wrongful spying. According to what they have found, files are kept by the FBI and Pentagon on peaceful activists and groups like Greenpeace and PETA are infiltrated by informants.
A study called Civil Liberties vs. Security: Public Opinion in the Context of the Terrorist Attacks on America was done at Michigan State University, funded by the National Science Foundation. The study surveyed Americans shortly after 9/11/01. The study found that the greater people's sense of threat, the lower their support for civil liberties. This effect interacted, however, with trust in government. The lower people's trust in government, the less willing they were to trade off civil liberties for security, regardless of their level of threat.
It is in this context that I read about what the British government is doing - treating climate change protesters using their law designed for terrorists. What do you think would happen in the US in a similar situation? What is the best balance between civil liberties and security in an era where terror attacks are a possibility yet we have a tradition of free speech and assembly as well as personal privacy and liberty? Are there not laws for when civil disobedients get out of hand, without resorting to "terror" law?
According to a document from Scotland Yard, obtained by The Guardian:
Police to use terror laws on Heathrow climate protesters
Government has encouraged use of stop and search and detention without charge
Armed police will use anti-terrorism powers to "deal robustly" with climate change protesters at Heathrow next week, as confrontations threaten to bring major delays to the already overstretched airport.
Up to 1,800 extra officers will be drafted in to prevent an estimated 1,500 people disrupting the airport over the period of the camp for climate change, which is due to begin on Tuesday. The police have been told to use stop and search powers against the protesters, who have pledged to take direct action on August 18 and 19 but not to endanger life.
(snip)
"Should individuals or small groups seek to take action outside of lawful protest they will be dealt with robustly using terrorism powers. This is because the presence of large numbers of protesters at or near the airport will reduce our ability to proactively counter the terrorist act [threat]," the document says.
The police report makes it clear that the government has encouraged police forces to make greater use of terrorism powers "especially the use of stop and search powers under s44 Terrorism Act 2000".
The law gives police powers to:
Stop and search people and vehicles for anything that could be used in connection with terrorism
Search people even if they do not have evidence to suspect them
Hold people for up to a month without charge
Search homes and remove protesters' outer clothes, such as hats, shoes and coats.
The civil rights group Liberty said it was alarmed at the police use of the anti-terrorism powers to deter peaceful protest. "Stop and search powers created to address the threat of terrorism should not be used routinely against peaceful demonstrators," said James Welch, Liberty's legal director.
(read the rest of the story below & see photo of armed airport cop)
The police tactics have echoes of the 2003 anti-war demo at RAF Fairford where law lords eventually ruled police had acted unlawfully in detaining two coachloads of protesters, who were stopped and searched and then turned back even though they were on their way to an authorised demonstration. Police used section 44 of the act 995 times at the Fairford peace camp, even though there was no suggestion of terrorist overtones.
The Guardian has established that at least two climate change campaigners have been arrested recently at Heathrow by officers using terrorism powers. Cristina Fraser, a student, was stopped when cycling near the airport with a friend and then charged under section 58 of the Terrorism Act. This makes it an offence to
make a record of something that could be used in an act of terrorism.
"I was arrested and held in a police cell for 30 hours. I was terrified. No one knew where I was. They knew I was not a terrorist," she said.
Ms Fraser, a first-year London university anthropology student, has been on aviation demonstrations with the Plane Stupid campaign group, but claims she was carrying nothing at all. The police later recharged her with conspiring to cause a public nuisance.
(Getty Images)


Opening my email, late here on the west coast, I heard from several people that Rove had resigned. Haven't read about it yet but am disappointed not to see the Frog March as I'd worked on my costume for several years!
How Do We Balance Liberty vs Security?
Assume the best and prepare for the worst.
Christy
Excellent answer! I like that!
What do you think about the British government using terror laws on climate change protesters? Could it happen here? I think it already has. They call the animal rights people "ecoterrorists" - maybe the climate change people are, as well, or "cloud terrorists" maybe.
Posted by: not my president at August 13, 2007 11:03 AM
Also, if you torch a car lot full of Honda Civics - you are an arsonist.
If you torch a car lot full of Hummers - you are a TERRORIST.
Here in Reagan Country, someone from Cal Tech got 30 years in prison for torching a Hummer dealership.
As for the British law, more reason for me to stay out of the UK. I'm staying out until their equivalent of DLC (that's the conservative Labours like Brown and Blair) are gone for good. Heck, I almost want to see the Tories back in power - I never thought I'd say that.
Just heard of Rove's resignation.
I think he is plotting something behind the scenes - something that he can do as a private citizen, as opposed to a public advisor.
I think Rove will be even more dangerous, now that he's a private citizen beyond any reach of oversight.
Ally
I am avoiding the UK until the dollar has some value!
Go now, & would have to try to be a busker.
The Rove Legacy, by Adam Nagourney (who is not my favorite)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/13/us/politics/13web-admin.html
I would love to know what Mark from Iowa thinks about this!
Kerry: Rove Leaves Trail of Unanswered Questions, Political Division
WASHINGTON D.C. - “It’s a tragedy that an Administration that promised to unite Americans has instead left us more divided than ever before,” Senator Kerry said. “Without doubt the architect of that political strategy was Karl Rove, who proved the politics of division may win some elections but cannot govern America. Rather than having answered serious questions about his role in selling the ill-advised war in Iraq or the firing of Republican US Attorneys who put the Constitution ahead of the Republican Party, Rove joins Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld and Michael Brown who were shielded from accountability at all costs. Unanswered questions and political division are Rove’s legacy.”
Posted by: not my president at August 13, 2007 11:19 AM
Yes, thanks for reminding me... One quid is over two bucks!
Maybe I'll check out Australia once woz and rossiann get rid of John Howard.
I never thought I would say I agree 100% with Chris Matthews, but,I do. Rove just became mortal.
"MSNBC host Chris Matthews predicted Congressional Democrats will "have a better chance" of compelling Karl Rove to testify on his role in the firing of nine US Attorneys now that he is resigning from the White House.
"You have to wonder about his exposure now because he's used executive privilege to protect himself from Pat Leahy on the Judiciary Committee, and Congressman Henry Waxman, both hot to trot to get him in a witness chair," Matthews said on NBC's Today Show Monday after news broke that Rove was resigning as the president's top political adviser. "He's exposed now, it seems to me on the leak case. In terms of the eight US Attorneys who were fired, I think he's also exposed there not having the White House position any more."
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Matthews_Rove_may_be_compelled_to_0813.html
Ally
I can't boycott whole countries because of their leaders or I couldn't go to France. Did you see Sarko & Bush out in that boat together eating hot dogs?! I would also have to boycott US, which I seriously considered but had no other working papers.
Christy
If Matthews is right - maybe Rove can not claim Executive Privilege so he can be forced to honor the subpoena from Congress. I mean, how can he legally get out of it? Go hide in Paraguay where Bush's new ranch is and where some of the Nazis fled to?
As far as the Brit terror laws, I know this, We do not like nor appreciate being called 'terrorists' any more than the British people do.
Backlash is a b*tch. On both sides of the pond.
US ranks only 42nd in life expectancy:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20228552/wid/11915773?GT1=10316
Honestly, I am surprised that it's not ranking even lower, considering all the people who die early due to lack of insurance.
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 11:25 AM
NMP,
W and Sarko together - that made me puke. I've been avoiding that story.
However, re: boycotting entire countries, if the country is extra-guilty of f'ing with our politics (i.e. South Korea), or wants me executed on sight (i.e. Nicaragua, Iran), then I have absolutely no qualms about TOTAL boycott.
Every time I open my mail there are more messages about Rove.
A friend from Texas said she has been working on getting rid of him since 1989, when he was practicing his evil craft in Austin, when he was known as the dirtiest rat in politics. She says she won't sleep til we find his first wife (no children, luckily). Their divorce was final the month Reagan was inaugurated.
Guy didn't make a lot of friends!
Ally
Paris would like you fine.
NMP,
Re: boycotting the US
I considered that too. When I had a Silicon Valley high-security job disappear over racial reasons in 1999, and the government refused to step in, I considered never coming back from the Netherlands.
I came back in a hurry though, because I couldn't take Amsterdam's Surinamese thugs at all.
As a result, Suriname is another country I will never set foot in.
I read this out in cyberspace and am thinking Rove can still charge $1000/hour or more as a political consultant for the right:
We all hate his guts, but this man is about to get rich beyond belief.
Ally
You drive a hard bargain!
We the People are about to change the course of history.
It is hard not to be excited by the thought of hunting rove down like a dog in paraguay, Saudi Arabia...Where ever.
If he wants to go international, fine, all the more reason to let the Hague have him when we pull him out of some princes spiderhole.
I'll bet there is alot of "chatter" on the internet today! (Rove)
Maybe the bargain was that if the Democrats signed the terror bill, Rove would quit. Not sure that would be a fair deal.
What do you mean...?
"She says she won't sleep til we find his first wife "
Find her? Is she missing?
We all hate his guts, but this man is about to get rich beyond belief.
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 11:35 AM
Unfortunately, yes.
And yes, I am a hard bargainer. I have long memories against countries AND corporations that get me PO'd.
In fact, the ONLY reason I am not getting rid of my BMW, in the wake of the O'Reilly advertising fiasco, is because I don't want my car to end up in some budding enthusiast's hands, and win BMW a new customer to replace me (effectively, rendering my boycott toothless).
We all hate his guts, but this man is about to get rich beyond belief.
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 11:35 AM
Like I said, he's not running from something, he's going to run something else.
The Teflon Turd
More people waking up to news of Rove:
SWAN- SONG THEME SONGS? "ROLL OVER ROVE-R !" ..............."PARAGUAY HERE I COME ........RIGHT BACK WHERE I STARTED FROM......" I'm on a roll!! HAHA AC
Posted by: Christy at August 13, 2007 11:39 AM
Rove's ex .. they divorced .. she went into obscurity .. but maybe she has some goods on him (I guess she meant)
another one:
Paraguay, yes....their own little nazi country....A guy I went to high school with was a prosecutor in The Hague in the 1990's....frog march to there...not likely....
Back to the topic:
Here's what BBC says about the expansion of Heathrow.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6943549.stm
From my experience though, Heathrow IS saturated (every time I land there, it's a 30-minute hold in the sky), and other airports need to take up the slack.
Hell what did I miss while I was asleep guys, whats coming down
SWAN - SONG THEME SONGS?
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 12:11 PM
It ain't over til the fat bastard sings.
Stop The Rain
by The Average White Band
Just yesterday you slipped
away from me
without so much
as one word of good-bye
You packed the sunshine
in your big old suitcase
Now only the rain
fills the sky
You were mine
but suddenly it's changed
Wish that I...
could find a way
to stop the rain
I thought that everything
was going fine
But I was blind
blind as a man could be
I took for granted
what you tried hard to give
And now the rain
is all I can see
You were mine -
but that was yesterday
Wish that I...
could find a way
to stop the rain
Now tell me please
do you understand
what this feeling
is all about
'Cos when you left me
you took my heart -
squeezed the sunshine out
But in time
this heart of mine will heal
the Sun will shine
and I can find a way
to stop the rain
Maybe I'll check out Australia once woz and rossiann get rid of John Howard.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 13, 2007 11:24 AM
He's gone,
Everyone and his dog are migrating to Sunny Qld at the moment darn it all.
Emotional Rove: It has been a joy
President Bush has called him "the architect" and "boy genius." Today, he called him "friend." Standing next to Bush, his voice cracking, Karl Rove, talked about quitting his job as Bush's senior political adviser. "It has been the joy and the honor of a lifetime."
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An emotional Karl Rove characterized his tenure in the White House as a "witness to history" as he announced his resignation as President Bush's senior political adviser at the end of this month.
"It seems the right time to start thinking about the next chapter in our family's life," Rove said, his voice breaking. "It's not been an easy decision."
Speaking to reporters outside the White House with Bush at his side, Rove said discussions about his departure began last summer. "It always seemed there was a better time to leave, somewhere out there in the future. But now is the time."
He told Bush he would be "your fierce and committed advocate on the outside."
Bush said Rove "is movin' on down the road," and added, "I'll be on the road behind you here in a little bit."
moron...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/13/rove.resign/index.html
Christy,
I really think that Rove is happy as a clam and is leaving because his work is finished. He is going off to a few years of vacation.
@@@@@@
Isn't Rove under a subpoena??? from the House and the Senate??
Rossi!
Rove RESIGNS!
We are celebrating!
Ney's Chief of Staff Wore Wire
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081201287.html?hpid=topnews
From sea to shining sea.
HAHAHA!!
Hundreds of anti-war activists gathered near Dick Cheney's home at an exclusive Wyoming country club to protest the vice president's role in leading the US into Iraq.
Chanting, "No more Iraq war," and "Impeach Cheney first," protesters gathered outside the Teton Pines Country Club, where Cheney typically spends the month-long August recess. They brought along a 10-foot-tall paper-mache sculpture that featured Cheney holding a fishing poll in one hand and an oil well in the other.
In a video posted on YouTube, a protester climbs the effigy and places a noose around its neck. Protesters then pull down the Cheney likeness in a scene reminiscent of Iraqis and US troops toppling a statue of Saddam Hussein after the fall of Baghdad.
Continues
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Cheneys_neighbors_topple_his_effigy_during_0813.html
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) has quietly shelved plans to hold the Senate in pro forma session this month after the White House agreed to refrain from making any executive appointments during the Senators August break.
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/53_19/news/19740-1.html
banana republic
Hey Karl - would a more honest reason for leaving kill you?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-reardon/hey-karl-would-a-more-h_b_60171.html
Shortcut to see Cheney toppled in Jackson Hole .. click on my name
Also wonder why W cut his vacation short to appear on the WH lawn, as a friend pointed out ..
Rove RESIGNS!
We are celebrating!
Posted by: Christy at August 13, 2007 01:00 PM
Good for you all, now that is worth celebrating.
I will celebrate with you all, now if they will just charge him, everthing would be rosy.
Shortcut to see Cheney toppled in Jackson Hole .. click on my name
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 02:10 PM
Good One NMP
Hartmann just discussed this. He thinks it's a quid pro quo
for letting Gonzo spy on us unfettered.
Fight Averted Over Bush Picks
Source: RollCall
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) has quietly shelved plans to hold the Senate in pro forma session this month after the White House agreed to refrain from making any executive appointments during the Senators’ August break.
Read more: http://www.rollcall.com/issues/53_19/news/19740-1.html
Posted by: rossiann at August 13, 2007 02:27 PM
Oooooohhhhh.... I highly suspect Reid's decision will end in disaster. Doesn't he know by now that Georgie and Dickie can never, never, never, never, never - ever! - be trusted?!?
Jeez.
Oooooohhhhh.... I highly suspect Reid's decision will end in disaster. Doesn't he know by now that Georgie and Dickie can never, never, never, never, never - ever! - be trusted?!?
Jeez.
Posted by: NonnyO at August 13, 2007 02:50 PM
RIGHT ON, NonnyO
Something tells me we will be hearing more from Karl Rove. He won't just fade away. His whole life has been geared towards promoting ultra conservative policy. I suspect that sooner or later, we may find Karl pulling the strings in the Fred Thompson or Mitt Romney campaign. Given Romney's penchant for lying, Rove will probably feel warm and fuzzy in that camp.
I will post an interesting biography of Rove later today, and you will probably understand why I don't think we should expect that lying sack of cr*p to gracefully bow out.
Now for an on topic comment. It is no surprise that the British and eventually the Americans will obliterate all semblence of civil liberties. Fear is too powerful an emotion with which people can use sound judgement and reason. My concern is that a Democratic majority succumbed to that fear and sold out the Constitution. No strength of conviction was demonstrated and no respect to our ideals was even remotely attempted.
However, the Democrats claim that they will revisit this issue in the next few months. Say what? It is way too late for that. They blew their chances to defend the Constitution. The Democrats got outmaneuvered by Rove, Cheney et al. The Dems have been backed into a corner. Any attempt to change FISA into a constitutionally acceptable law will be met with accusatations that the Democrats want to weaken America's security. The Republicans will use that argument just as they claimed the Democrats wanted to raise taxes when the Dems proposed rescinding Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.
I posted this on the last thread, but I realized some time mid-morning that Rove is probably just taking a few weeks off in August, then hitting the behind the scenes campaign trail for the '08 Presidential election.
Remember what I told you?
ALWAYS look at the M.O.
There is no way that anyone with that much power is going to let someone like Rove "retire".
Besides, I haven't exactly been falling for this quiet and demure little Rove they've been trying to feed us this past year.
ALWAYS look at the M.O.
ALWAYS look at the M.O.
Posted by: TSP at August 13, 2007 05:30 PM
... and add a little N.K.E.Y if ya like it spicey.
I said it this mornin, nothing is ever as its presented in Bushworld...
Rove Wasn't Bilked In A Day
Posted by: monkey at August 13, 2007 05:41 PM
There you go again, quick witted one with fur.
The only thing that bugs me is that it took me clear until 11:00 a.m. this morning to think of it.
So, therefore my middle of the night jubilation was probably for naught. I might shoulda been cryin'.
They are not going to quit until they have got what they want. And they are not going to waste that "talent".
Rove is under siege - he is connected to almost every major scandal in the White House. He is under-subpoena in connection with the USAtty firings; he is implicated in the violation of the Hatch act (numerous times); destruction of White House documents; the Plame leak etc... The reports are that Rove considered leaving a year ago.
Rove is probably burned out - and September will be grim. Republicans in Congress are revolting on Iraq, Afghanistan is worsening, Pakistan is unstable
The Iraq Body count is now over 1 million. God forgive Us.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
We are coming for you karl. For war crimes, and high treason.
From Rick Overton at Huffington Post:
Ayn Rand and Machiavelli
would be brimming over with pride.
You've created your own separate world
and invited us all on your ride.
Thank you Mr. Blossom,
for telling our POTUS straight.
For getting his pet goats in a row.
It's what makes your myth so great.
Thank you for guiding this ship's captain,
keeping our nation secure.
Thanks for putting our economy back on top,
all while sending our children on tour.
Thank you for cleaning the air we breathe
And for cheap gasoline in our tanks.
For keeping us all united as one,
Appeasing the dissent in our ranks.
Thanks for caring about working folks
and addressing our varied ills.
Thank you for keeping us busy as bees,
Paying our mounting bills,
Thank you for tapping more than your library
To guide our magnificent leader.
Thank you for instilling him with all your compassion
while making him an avid reader.
Thank you for giving up the spotlight
And working behind the curtain.
Thank you for taking the next election
And insuring the outcome as certain.
Thank you for loving this country so much
That you'd donate nine years of your life.
You're earned yourself some quality time
With a certain little "Mr. Wife."
Many Americans just don't get,
how hard it is to be you.
So easy to criticize things we don't like,
and believe things that just aren't true.
Thank you for all those whispers
In our lauded President's ear.
Thank you for designing a better place
For the few that you hold dear.
Though you're exiting out the back,
Your legacy is totally awesome.
You're free to to build upon your legend,
and let your true "Inner Turd" blossom.
"Master" and "Mind" aren't bad words
They're just better kept apart.
And together they are of little worth
Without the counsel of a heart.
& if you want to see Cheney toppled by neighbors, click on my name.
Democrats' "Baby Steps" Frustrate Party Loyalists
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/081307T.shtml
USA Today's Kathy Kiely reports: "For some of the Democratic Party's loyal supporters, this is turning out to be a summer of discontent. Last November's election gave Democrats control of both the House and Senate for the first time since 1994. But some of the party's key constituencies are having a hard time
understanding why the sweeping changes they anticipated have been so slow in coming."
Even USA Today is noticing that both parties are frustrated with their leadership at the activist base level.
Heathrow Protesters Set Up Camp
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/081307EB.shtml
BBC News reports: "Thousands of protesters are expected this week at the Camp for Climate Action, which opposes the expansion of London's biggest airport."
This related directly to today's thread header. Should Climate Change protesters be held under anti-terror laws in the UK?
Should Climate Change protesters be held under anti-terror laws in the UK?
Posted by: Not My President at August 13, 2007 08:19 PM
No, not hardly!
But they will be...
"Rove's saga is a rags-to-riches success story of a political serial killer."
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/08/13/karl_rove/
Posted by: Ralpheh at August 13, 2007 06:38 PM
Don't count the Republicans out yet.
Here in Reagan Country, they are alive, well, and VERY STRONG. In fact, so strong, that they are planning to take out 20 or so of the state's electoral votes, under a new initiative that you and others mentioned before.
W '04 ovals are still extremely popular here.
Here in Reagan Country, they are alive, well, and VERY STRONG. In fact, so strong, that they are planning to take out 20 or so of the state's electoral votes, under a new initiative that you and others mentioned before.
W '04 ovals are still extremely popular here.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 13, 2007 09:13 PM
@@@@@
The 25% that still approve "W"???? I thought California was a trend-setter. not 4 years behind the rest of the nation....
Posted by: oncall at August 13, 2007 05:19 PM
The Dems need their own Rove.
The Chinese around me compare Rove to the greatest tactician in Chinese history, Zhuge Liang, who was active around 200 AD (the Three Kingdoms era). Zhuge served the weakest of China's three powers, yet the stronger two could not overcome him due to his tactical brilliance both in diplomacy and in battle.
Actually, comparing Zhuge to Rove is too much of a compliment for Rove. Zhuge was a man of honor, AFAIK, and Rove is not.
The 25% that still approve "W"???? I thought California was a trend-setter. not 4 years behind the rest of the nation....
Posted by: Ralpheh at August 13, 2007 09:18 PM
Ralpheh,
Remember that the suburban property tax revolt and the Reagan Revolution all started in Southern California.
The Dems got the upper hand here, only because the Republicans were stupid enough to slay their gooses that lay the golden egg - immigrants.
Neither party realizes this.
I would like to amend what I said earlier.
I not only believe karl just became mortal, so did georgie.
Other than condi, they have all abandoned him now.
Are yall REALLY REALLY going to let karl rove, the evil 'architect' of the most horrific mistakes our nation ever made, just walk away into obscurity...?
Of course your not. What fun would that be?
Everything they have touched has failed, they will try to walk away from it all. I think it is hillarious they actually believe they will just walk away.
The looks on their faces though...
HAHAHA!!
The republicans are totally freaking out! Like rabbits caught in oncoming headlights. Bush looked like he was having a nervous breakdown. Karl looked like he has not slept for years.
They don't look very happy to me at all, they look like they are wondering how far they can get before justice knocks on their door.
All of their failures can no longer be evaded nor avoided.
He can't walk away if We don't let him.
C. Powell has said the current U.S. troop level is unsustainable. So have many others. Also, there is been no progress in the Iraqi government - none. In fact, in last week more groups pulled out of the government.
Then we have the 1994 video of Cheney given ALL the reasons NOT to invade and topple Saddam.
The Repubs have given up on the truth and reality - they are now lying wholesale and retail.
My great wish is that there were a strong, clear-headed Dem. candidate. Hillary's record in the Senate is mediocre, and awful the way I look at. The Repubs will eat her alive - there is so much to criticize.
I might be so desperate that I read Carl Bernstein's biography of HIllary as homework ( - I am that far off in my assessment of her?) Her nomination will galvanize and energize the rightwing. My guess is that independents wouldn't like her either.
She reminds me of Lady Macbeth...
"The Dems need their own Rove."
Posted by: Ally
That will only serve to make most moderate dems jump ship. The last thing anybody on earth needs right now is another karl rove.
Posted by: Ralpheh at August 13, 2007 09:28 PM
If the Republicans can get stupid enough to backstab their immigrant supporters (who provided the crucial votes on socially conservative legislations), then it isn't too out of hand for the Democrats to get stupid enough to rally behind someone unelectable - Hillary.
On the other hand, if Howard Dean's lead could evaporate so fast in 2004, Hillary isn't quite safe either. And Dean's negatives were much more minor than Hillary's.
Adam N of NYT:
If Mr. Rove is to some extent discredited in Republican circles, blamed for political mistakes that have contributed to the staggering decline of Mr. Bush’s standing with the American public, that has not stopped the people who have worked around him from embracing many of his tactics.
@@@@@
brief assessment on Rove:
great on strategy (and fixing/stealing elections)
an idiot on policy and public relations....
BTW:
If Rove is charged with a crime, can he be pardoned by Bush before a conviction???
A "pre-emptive pardon" so to speak.....
In WA state, Dems have outraised Repubs 10 to 1. They are recruiting good candidates, putting forth a positive and practical agenda, tracking district demographics and working year-round. It is mostly due to one hard-working man, Frank Chopp (State Speaker of the House), who wants to build a permanent majority. We were behind in this state, then tied, and finally we are ahead! It has been an incremental process.
By 1996 we were tied, and now the margin is 62-36, an exact flip flop of the majority the Republicans had in 1985. Now we want to defeat 6 of 8 incumbents in 2008. Part of that is recruiting good candidates, and that's what Chopp travels the state doing. His background? He worked for a nonprofit. He had never done this before.
When I was in Chicago, there was 50-state work going on and part of it was for one of our Congressional candidates (national). I went to a WA/OR caucus and found out that Bush himself is coming in to support her opponent, later this month. The other thing about Chopp is that he wants to keep the majority and he does that by not alienating the middle. Some people don't like that, but it means the business, insurance and building communities, all of which usually support the other side.
I guess each state is different and things are cyclical but here we can't afford to relax no matter what the situation is. At the time of Reagan, we were in the same political shape as southern California, in many ways. I hope people like Chopp are aware of the caution Ally is putting out about immigrant voters. I have read that some Hispanics do not want to get involved in politics because in their country it was associated with corruption (as it is getting to be here now), and that some other immigrant groups (segments thereof) buy into propaganda about "the American dream."
Local politics can be really mundane and boring sounding but I do need to find out more about it as the time for another election approaches. Vigilance cannot be relaxed. Also, when Elizabeth and Marjorie G had their election integrity summit, I was kind of recruited to once again work in the Democrat booth at Hempfest. That is to attract Libertarians, Socialists, Greens and Apathetics and probably still worth doing, plus it presents some great photo ops! This will be my 5th year! Stop giggling ..
OMG, look at rummy!
He is trying the 'I'm old and old frail men can't be charged with WAR CRIMES' trick!
HAHAHAHA! HAHA!
"Rumsfeld sighting.
Mary Ann Akers reports on a random Donald Rumsfeld sighting in Washington D.C. today. “What was remarkable was how, according to our (Republican) source, Rumsfeld’s handlers had to help him onto the escalator and ‘held his elbow’ and opened doors for him. ‘He looked old,’ our tipster said.” Akers notes that’s a stark contrast from the Rumsfeld who used to stand for 8-10 hours a day and used a stand-up desk in his Pentagon office.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/13/rumsfeld-sighting-2/
Oh man, what an interesting day this has been!
Ally
In some ways it's hard to compare H Clinton and H Dean - she is known, he came out of left field sort of. People keep saying she has a vast lead but that's nationally. In Iowa the candidates are pretty much neck and neck and Edwards has the most experience there because of last time, and additional time spent since.
I think the whole thing is still a crap shoot. I don't think anyone is "unelectable." Is US president even "elected" anymore? If they have enough money, the right districts, enough electoral votes and make the right promises, they are in. That's the way it's been working. & on the "political compass" the candidates are very similar, ditto for voting records.
I had coffee with a friend today who used to be in advertising and she isn't going to watch tv either, especially not ads, nor are either of us going to donate for ads. Reason? They are the absolute worst way to gather actual information about a candidate and are essentially propaganda. We feel morally wrong about getting involved with them and will go on voting record, nose-plugged electability, etc. rather than presentation. So it doesn't matter if someone is "black enough" (for what?) or "woman enough" or "too much woman" or "Southern" etc.
Maybe next he should try wandering the streets babbling in only his panties and a bathrobe.
Maybe that will keep history at bay.
Then again...
If the Republicans can get stupid enough to backstab their immigrant supporters (who provided the crucial votes on socially conservative legislations), then it isn't too out of hand for the Democrats to get stupid enough to rally behind someone unelectable - Hillary.
@@@@@
The Dems don't need a Super-star candidate - we need someone competent, hard-working, honest (imagination and charisma would be a plus but hey, George doesn't have either and look how he has gotten to say nothing of the former qualities); someone who will respect dissent and at least listen to the opposition on occasion.
The Republican rightwing is so bigoted and hateful they have turned off:
Blacks
Gays
Women (the Republican agenda strikes me as strongly anti-woman)
Hispanics
the Middle Class
unions
etc...
Posted by: Christy at August 13, 2007 09:44 PM
poor old geezer ..
By the way, I was also asked to plug a documentary - Charles Fergusons' NO END IN SIGHT. It is a timeline of the bungling of the Iraq war, broken into segments like "The Void," "Things Fall Apart," "Chaos" - distinct historical periods.
It focusses on the war itself, from Shock and Awe to Mission Accomplished to Rummy's honorable discharge and beyond. It's made up of on-the-ground footage used to annotate interviews, with images of burning cars, bombed-out homes etc. that will not be seen on the networks, and reportedly speaks for itself without "preaching to the converted".
I really need to see that and "Sicko" - burnt out on all of this but feel the need to support these endeavors, acts of brave documentary making.
Posted by: Christy at August 13, 2007 09:47 PM
You are in fine form. I didn't need that visual!
I guess killing all those people just sucked the life right out of him.
Poor old soul.
We can let him keep his diaper on when he is taken to the gallows to face the consequences of his many, many crimes.
Here is the Karl Rove bio I spoke of earlier today. It starts about 1/5 down the page. After reading it, you decide if Karl Rove will be content to stay uninvolved.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2432
I wonder if he was caught on tape by the ney aide wearing a wire?
We know rove was all up in that with ney and abramoff. Notice that story never even approached reporting what was caught on those tapes?
Very interesting.
I just got my first Nigerian scam letter that was translated by Babel Fish. The person knew no English and had the wherewithal to try a scam! Amazing!
People are still sending things:
1. There is a Wikipedia entry for Turd Blossom
Turd Blossom
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also: List of nicknames used by George W. Bush
Turd Blossom, according to partisans of Karl Rove and George W. Bush, is a Texan term for a flower which grows from a pile of cow dung.[1] The term has gained notoriety in the United States, as reportedly this is one of President George W. Bush's terms of endearment for his chief political advisor, Karl Rove.[2] Bush is also reported to call Rove by the nickname ”Boy Genius.“[3]
Few, if any, native Texans would recognize this definition of 'turd blossom.' 'Turd blossom' was used in 1960s Texas high school slang to describe the spreading smell of a fart, or the spreading stain of a loose bowel movement. Neither Rove nor George W. Bush attended high school in Texas, and they may have been unfamiliar with the original use of the word. 'Fart blossom' was a common variant.[citation needed]
In July 2005, several newspapers declined to run two Doonesbury strips portraying Bush addressing Rove by this nickname.[citation needed]
2. Is this from Letterman or what?
This is my favorite one:
8. Tired of being Bush's Brain, wants to be something fun, like Bill Clinton's penis.
Here is the Karl Rove bio I spoke of earlier today. It starts about 1/5 down the page. After reading it, you decide if Karl Rove will be content to stay uninvolved.
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2432
Posted by: oncall at August 13, 2007 10:33 PM
Oncall, there is an error in the bio you referred at the above website.
Karl Rove is NOT a pentecostal Chrisian. Karl Rove is a member of the Anglican/Episcopalian faith. Which is not fundie and is actually a little liberal. It is a main line church.
excerpt:
Religion:
Karl Rove is a member of the Anglican/Episcopalian faith.
Source:
http://tinyurl.com/2ndm5l
Anther source quotes him as being a non-believer.
"When discussing his new book God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, Christopher Hitchens was asked by New York Magazine if "anyone in the Bush administration confided in [him] about being an atheist?", he replied, "Well, I don't talk that much to them maybe people think I do. I know something which is known to few but is not a secret. Karl Rove is not a believer, and he doesn't shout it from the rooftops, but when asked, he answers quite honestly. I think the way he puts it is, I'm not fortunate enough to be a person of faith.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
Rove grew up in my home town, which seems eery to me. His mother committed suicide there.
TSP
Do you think Rove would "fake" being a believer just for political expediency? I wouldn't be surprised. I've heard he's possibly "in the closet" in other ways as well. Guess I shouldn't spread rumors but there is that quote about how hot W looks in the cowboy hat and leather jacket and all.
Edwards just moved up a notch in my estimation!
from http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/08/13/ap4015874.html
"Karl Rove was an architect of a political strategy that has left the country more divided, the special interests more powerful and the American people more shut out from their government than any time in memory." - Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.
"We worked together so we could be in a position to serve this country. And so I thank my friend. I'll be on the road behind you here in a little bit." - President Bush.
"I think it's important that we try to get our country back on track from the disastrous course that he help set. ... I think it'll be a great burst of fresh air and hope when we finally say goodbye to this administration." - Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y.
"Mr. Rove's apparent attempts to manipulate elections and push out prosecutors citing bogus claims of voter fraud shows corruption of federal law enforcement for partisan political purposes, and the Senate Judiciary Committee will continue its investigation into this serious issue. ... There is a cloud over this White House, and a gathering storm." - Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., committee chairman.
"Karl Rove has made an enormous contribution to our country and our party." - Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.
"Karl Rove's resignation signals the final chapter in the Bush administration's betrayal of the identity of a covert CIA officer. ... Rove, identified by the prosecutors as one of the leakers, not only was not summarily dismissed, but has been allowed to leave on his own terms, to praise from the president." - Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, whose wife, Valerie Plame, was the CIA officer whose name was disclosed.
"He is brilliant, he is funny and he is a passionate advocate for the president and his policies, and I know that he will continue to play that role outside of the administration. ... He was always upbeat. I don't recall ever seeing him down." - Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy Karen Hughes.
"It's a tragedy that an administration that promised to unite Americans has instead left us more divided than ever before. Without doubt the architect of that political strategy was Karl Rove, who proved the politics of division may win some elections but cannot govern America." - Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.
"He will be remembered most for engineering two successful presidential campaigns, but those of us who have worked closely with Karl know that his dedication to politics was not for its own sake: Karl was and is, at heart, a policy person, someone who has strong beliefs and a deep commitment to making our nation better." - Republican National Committee Chairman Mike Duncan.
"Goodbye, good riddance." - Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards.
"The need for Karl Rove to explain his role in the firing of the U.S. Attorneys does not diminish when he leaves the White House. Our investigation to date has revealed the White House's contempt for the rule of law and its interest in the politicization of the Department of Justice." - Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., House Judiciary Committee chairman.
"Now is the time for the country to put the politics of division behind it." - Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn.
NMP,
Thanks for your analysis of Washington State. Your Democrats are doing things right. And it only helps that Republicans are a bunch of hypocrites in your state - as in the gay mayor of Spokane.
Not only that, Washington still has a pro-business, pro-innovation reputation - being home to Starbucks, Boeing, Microsoft, Amazon, and much more. "Conventional wisdom" says Dems are anti-business, and that's certainly not true of Washington State.
Keeping the state pro-business will be the key to keeping a permanent Democratic lead.
Posted by: Ralpheh at August 13, 2007 09:49 PM
I beg to disagree on some of these demographics.
Some women feel that their chosen role is second-class citizenship, and utter submission to men without question. These women will vote Republican.
Hispanics - don't count on them. Protestant Hispanics are a Republican leaning bloc, and virulently anti-choice and anti-gay (as in 90%+). Moreover, much of W's cabinet is made of these conservative Hispanics.
Gays - not even they can be trusted. Considering the Republican drive to exterminate them, I expect nothing less than at least 95% support for Dems. Yet gays are only 77% likely to support the Dems. There are too many who just can't let go of the white male privilege of the Republicans - and that includes many formerly men, like Mann Coulter.
Everyone and his dog are migrating to Sunny Qld at the moment darn it all.
Posted by: rossiann at August 13, 2007 12:44 PM
Not this one rossiann - I came to Tassie for the brilliant climate! Ex Hervey Bay.
One correction:
I do know that Boeing moved to Chicago, but Everett still gets to build the 787. So I would still count Boeing as a Washington State company.
Not this one rossiann - I came to Tassie for the brilliant climate! Ex Hervey Bay.
Posted by: woz at August 14, 2007 01:32 AM
I dont know about Tassi woz, my friend was down there for about 8 months, and she told me the weather changes hourly or daily.
Yes rossiann - all 4 seasons can appear within a day in Tassie, but winter days are beautiful - clear blue skies and crisp air with no wind! Brilliant. And I can see the snow on the mountains less than an hour's drive away. The hot part of summer only lasts about 3 weeks - perfect!
The Iraq Body count is now over 1 million. God forgive Us.
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html
We are coming for you karl. For war crimes, and high treason.
Posted by: Christy at August 13, 2007 06:39 PM
Read this Christy says it all I think
Let's call the whole thing off.
understand that some of you may not like Jazz, but how on earth can anyone not like Billie Holiday?
Do you remember that song of hers, "Let's call the whole thing off"?
"you say neether, I say neither
you say eeether, I say either
you like potayto, I like potaato,
you like tomayto, I like tomaato,
potayto, potaato, tomayto, tomaato
let's call the whole thing off..."
I just read in the Observer, the Guardian's sister, that the US army in Iraq is crippled by fatigue.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2147052,00.html
The famous Guardian that still uses the Iraqi Body Count figure of 70'000 Iraqis dead as opposed to 1 million+ Iraqis dead since 2003. For more on that shameful reporting from the Guardian read Gabriele Zamparini's blog.
http://www.thecatsdream.com/blog/
The article says that those poor soldiers are suffering from sleep disorders, the proverbial PTSD, conjugal problems, exhaustion, lassitude and bouts of acute superstition... They also live on "Red Bull" and "Rip it".
Now Red Bull, I have heard of, but what the fuck is Rip it?
Is it a drink that enables you to rip Iraq and Iraqis apart? Like turns you into Jack the Ripper?
Whatever it is they are drinking, it seems to be working - well sort of...
So your boys are tired, exhausted? Oh la la, I really empathize. I know all about being tired. I and countless others suffer from the occupation chronic fatigue syndrome.
They are having marital problems? What a crime separating families that way. Am sure thousands of Iraqis can relate to that too. Widows, orphaned kids and families of arbitrary detainees who amount to over 100'000 in shadow prisons all over Iraq.
They suffer from PTSD ? Wow, tell me about it - I wonder why. Must be hard having one's finger on the trigger 24/7. So does the sight and stories of tortured bodies, overflowing morgues, corpses littering the streets, and symphonies of bombs and explosions...
They suffer from sleeping disorders? Hey, join the club. Want a sleeping pill?
They miss back home ? I sure can relate. I miss family life too. So are millions of Iraqis who have seen their families being torn apart - sorry meant ripped apart. Remember the "Rip it".
They have become acutely superstitious ? Us too. We keep hugging personal papers, ready to flee at any moment and some of us even changed our names and started hanging pictures of mullahs and other saints on our walls...
They doze with their clothes on, on dusty floors ? So are 4.4 million Iraqi refugees.
And some sleep on pavements and in tents as an "alternative life style"...
Any Californian in the house ? Maybe she/he would like to try this public communal form of living arrangement. So 60's!
They are frequently deserting and absent ? Yes, so are the 1 million Iraqis dead.
They witness their buddies being shot and bombed away ? I know the feeling. Every single family in Iraq endures it daily. I even have a special section in my wardrobe just for black clothes... Black is in fashion these days.
They can't communicate properly anymore ? Boy does that ring a bell.
We communicate very badly too. We send a one word text message with " OK?" and if there is no "OK" reply, we know we're in for another PTSD. Or we give coded missed calls implicitly saying "we are still alive" and if the phone does not ring back immediately with another missed call - we spell it as "trouble".
They have no way of decompressing? Yep sure thing, we have not decompressed either since 2003. Decomposed maybe, but definitely not decompressed.
The only thing I can't relate to, though, is the "Red Bull" and the "Rip it".
We have neither. Just small bottled water if one is lucky to afford it, that we sip all so gently and slowly... But, am curious about tasting this "Rip it" thing...if you see what I mean.
you say Ayrab, I say Arab
you say EyeRaq, I say Iraq
you say tiiyred, I say tired...
So, let's do it. Let's call the whole thing off.
Yes rossiann - all 4 seasons can appear within a day in Tassie, but winter days are beautiful - clear blue skies and crisp air with no wind! Brilliant. And I can see the snow on the mountains less than an hour's drive away. The hot part of summer only lasts about 3 weeks - perfect!
Posted by: woz at August 14, 2007 02:08 AM
Are that does sound perfect, But I'm afraid I'm a Brissie girl through and through. I wish the hot part of our summer only lasted 3 weeks though, that I could take.
So, let's do it. Let's call the whole thing off.
Posted by: rossiann at August 14, 2007 02:08 AM
Looking at Georgies War and Occupation, from both sides.
I dont know about anyone else, but I have to understand this war of Georgies, and its effects from both sides. Make my children and Grandchildren understand what has happened to a Nation, because of Georgies,Rove, Rummies, Cheneys, Condies lies.
Only If I could...
This is personal. A medley of wishful thoughts, desires...and a stark reality from which there is no real escape.
I would much rather be writing about Love than Death...
About dreams coming true, as opposed to nightmares realizing themselves, rolling in front of my very eyes...like some welcoming carpet.
I would much rather invite friends over for a candlelight dinner instead of sitting in funeral gatherings giving my condolences...
And another one has gone, and I repeat the same words, they have become meaningless.
At times, when I am told of the news of yet another passing away, I just raise an eyebrow...That is all I can manage, sometimes. Then, I continue doing what am doing.
I hate it when am in that kind of state. Absolutely hate it.
I hear on a daily basis, so many stories of Death...The saturation has dehumanized me... And I don't like what I see.
I look into the mirror, and say to myself, this is not who you really are...
Maybe this is my pathetic attempt to shield myself from too much pain.
Because, at other times, I feel the grief so overwhelming, a tsunami of grief...
So I build dams and barriers, hoping to contain the gigantic waves, before they engulf me and everything else around me...trying hard to keep my little patch as "dry" as possible.
I guess one could call it survival.
The greatest challenge is to keep sane, avoiding at all costs, slipping into insanity. There is something about violence that can make one insane. I know so and have seen it around me...
The violence of a reality you can hardly do anything about, the violence of emotions, that accompany what you see, hear, and feel, the violence of witnessing those around either withering away, in resignation or cornered into neat little square boxes of indifference...
Violence violates...They belong to the same root.
So everything is constructed on a daily basis, as to how avoid being violated even further...Violation is really all about rape. Again language is a powerful tool.
The French call rape "viol"...
The rape of daily living. Mental rape, moral rape, spiritual rape, physical rape, social rape, economic rape, political rape...so many levels of rape, of violations.
It is so hard to explain to an outsider...especially someone who does not feel any of the emotional "stuff", any of the affinities...especially to someone who shields himself, herself, behind theories, analysis and ready made slots, boxes, pigeon holes of handy concepts.
Futile attempts to rationalize away or explain a real devastation of personal and collectives lives.
Not numbers, not nameless faces, but real lives...breathing, kicking, moving lives ...or what was once a life.
At times, I try to gather, collect, amass all of that, that bundle of sensations, feelings, thoughts, longings, yearnings...and deposit it on paper, for the record, for history, for them, for you, for me...
At other times, I wish for a magical invisible hand to reach inside, across my chest, into my heart, and grab that bundle and find the words, the best fitting words, and present them as an offering, a gift, for the record, for history, for them, for you and maybe for me too.
I think women will understand what am saying, with more ease, than men.
Most " men " still need to learn about the unsaid language...get familiar with it, master it, and possibly replace "facts", "figures", "theories", "concepts", "analysis" ...with the half spoken word...with utterings, mutterings, murmurs, those "senseless" tears, and other "emotional hysterical outbursts"...
Maybe then, we will find a common language, a "primitive" language that unites, beyond words...
And maybe then, I won't need to go and look for them...
And maybe by then, the language of arms will be replaced with the unspoken word, and silence will fall, like white cotton fluff, like a peaceful cloak, like a gentle dove, covering them, you and me...
And maybe by then, I can start writing about Love instead of Death...
An Arab Woman Blues - Reflections in a sealed bottle...
Bush said Rove "is movin' on down the road," and added, "I'll be on the road behind you here in a little bit."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/13/rove.resign/index.html
Posted by: monkey at August 13, 2007 12:47 PM
I wish that in a "little bit" (this week, even) we could impeach DimWit and send him back to his ranch permanently... and I would hope the next US president signs on to the World Court so he can be tried in The Hague for war crimes....
Sigh.... I have such pretty daydreams....
I wish that in a "little bit" (this week, even) we could impeach DimWit and send him back to his ranch permanently... and I would hope the next US president signs on to the World Court so he can be tried in The Hague for war crimes....
Sigh.... I have such pretty daydreams....
Posted by: NonnyO at August 14, 2007 04:04 AM
Amen NonnyO
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/13/keith-olbermann-says-goodbye-to-turd-blossom/
Keith Olbermann Says Goodbye To Turd Blossom
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/08/13/dick-cheney-explains-why-the-us-shouldnt-invade-iraq-in-1994-quagmire/
Dick Cheney explains why the US shouldn’t invade Iraq in 1994: Quagmire!
(For anyone who missed this....)
Posted by: rossiann at August 14, 2007 04:16 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and make a prediction (and if I'm wrong, I'll gladly eat my words in humble pie):
The clock will run out on this administration because the Dems are dragging their feet. Cheney and Bush will not be impeached. The non-answers based on faulty memory will get Abu off scot-free, nothing much will be done regarding the people who have not answered subpoenas (Karl & Harriet), and the Dems will (once again) play Harvey Milquetoast roles and continue to stonewall their constituents with "We have more important things to do than to impeach Dickie or Georgie."
We need a fire-breathing dragon type of Rep or Senator on our Judiciary Committees who can order people to answer questions or be taken immediately to jail for contempt or inherent contempt by the Sergeant-at-Arms (preferably inherent contempt, since neither SCOTUS nor the executive branch can interfere with that determination; there's precedent and it has been done, but ages ago), not the types of Judiciary Committee members described by John Nichols and Bruce Fein who shuffle papers and hem and haw around and ask softball questions in a wheedling tone of voice....
I believe the only RATIONAL course of action that could lead to ending the illegal war in Iraq, ending torture and closing Gitmo and repealing all the unconstitutional legislation passed since January '01 (Patriot Acts, MCA '06, FISA fixes, for a short list) is to impeach Dickie (first) and Georgie (second, so we aren't stuck with Dickie).
Keep in mind, I do not want to be correct in my prediction. But I fear I am.
Gonzales could get say in states' executions
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-penalty14aug14,0,2441069.story?coll=la-home-center
Breaking Bush’s Resistance
A pending court case could expose the administration’s torture regime.
http://amconmag.com/2007/2007_07_30/article.html
Well we can always hope.
Keep in mind, I do not want to be correct in my prediction. But I fear I am.
Posted by: NonnyO at August 14, 2007 04:51 AM
I also fear your right NonnyO, but I am hoping we are both wrong, and there is justice in this world for these criminals
Roves mother killed herself...?
And his first wife is...unaccounted for?
Wow. He just gets creepier and creepier.
Have yall actually read through this where Greenwald hands O'Hanlon his arse?
Wow.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/08/12/ohanlon/index.html
Email from Senator Stabenow regarding impeaching Cheney:
Thank you . . .
. . for contacting me about the Valerie Plame leak case. I share your concerns about the Administration's conduct in this matter.
The Senate Intelligence Committee, which has jurisdiction over the CIA, has investigated this matter thoroughly. A basic obligation of all citizens is to speak truthfully under oath and not create barriers to official investigations. Breaching CIA protocol undermines our national security and could put the lives of Americans in danger. You can count on my continued support for holding those involved accountable and for ensuring proper government oversight so incidents like this will never happen again.
Thank you again for taking the time to contact me. Please continue to keep me informed about issues of concern to you and your family.
Sincerely,
Debbie Stabenow
United States Senator