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The Village Inside
A village pub
This morning we talked over breakfast about summer plans, and I reminded Richard and Cleo that we might go back to Dartington, Devon, UK for a conference I am helping to run.
That led to a conversation about one of my visits there, back in 1995, when I stayed at the Cott Inn, a small thatched roof inn from the 14th century. Every day at 4:30, the pub opened for everyone in the village to come in and have a pint, or four. And every day I was there, I saw and spoke with the same folks: the college teacher, the gardener, the painter, and the "village idiot", a carpenter who had had a bad accident falling off a ladder and who sustained some brain damage as a result.
Everyone talked to "Tom", slapped him on the back, asked how his day went. The conversations flowed easily from tales of the day to areas of common concern (the state of the flowers along the common pathway through the village was very big the week I was there). I am reminded of that village often, and today I told Cleo she ought to visit with us next summer, as an anthropologist and as a product of a kind of village herself.
Her village was Capitol Hill, alas, no longer sharing the characteristics of the little village in Devon. She grew up with friends and their parents gathering regularly, with the parks places for human interaction and dinners outside that included the neighbors as well.
That village is gone, due to our excessive and obsessional work lives and a horrifying depletion of social resources. None of this is new, but this summer seems much worse to me; especially, a lack of will to gather.
Gathering is, to me, what precedes disseminating and changing. And gathering is in short supply. Yet gathering is what we do here at the DCP.
We gather links, and we share insights, and we take that information out to those who did not show up. And occasionally, ideas are given birth that actually migrate out of here and into the world, even though we are hundreds, if not thousands of miles away from each other.
I was thinking about that as I read TSP and rossiann talking overnight about the grandkids. Even when we are just ranting, and feeling powerless and frustrated, it is nice to have a place to check in, organize those thoughts and to find refreshment.
OK, so we don't serve Guinness or have three ales on tap, but you can always provide your own. The conversation is still there, all day, every day, and who knows? An idea or two might pop up, and we, too, can plant new hardier flowers along the common path through the village we all inhabit inside.
Excellent points Karen.
I know that as I have gotten busy at work (the same as others have) I have tried to scurry back to the DCP and see what has been happening. I know without it, I would not know what I do know.
And though it seems like preaching to the choir, I don't believe it is. For one thing, I take what I read and go out in the real world and I listen to what others say and then I can respond appropriately.
Also, I know that I sense a change in the air that the beltway pundits don't hear. And that's the chatter of revolution, like Christy has referred to, and the anger about the regime that is grabbing more and more power as they see fit.
The thing is that the DCP has led to other opportunities for many of us. My new job is a result of what I learned here. Also, I've become involved with helping whistleblowers as a result of being here and going to Camp Democracy and basically meeting the people who needed help.
This may seem like "Cheers"--grab a Guinness or a Port but it's really a place where we have educated and empowered and activated others. We just do it in different ways.
BTW--Congrats Rossi on you newest grandchild.
And TSP--safe travels back to Reno. Hope things go well with your family.
last eve I went to a shabbat service/picnic in a local park. Today i am going to some sort of private rennisance festival in Vestal NY.
For both I am wearing my tshirt- on the front it says"
blind faith in bad leadership is not patriotism
and on the back it says
Go bless everyone-no exceptions
I am bringing a squash/zuccini salad today andI am making a squash dessert (tis the season...I stopped growing my own because everyone around here is giving aways summer squash & zuccini at this time). Cooking/baking always brings the community feeling out in myself..sort of a nuturing thing I guess.
I had the tshirt made about 2 years ago but haven't worn it in a while- had to be careful at school/work etc. But now, I can again wear it and last night got very favorable comments onit. We shall see about today. (I live in RURAL ny where LOTS of folks beleive 9/11=Iraq and if we leave Iraq we will be wearing burka's here the following week.) Now todays crowd is most likely more liberal than the genl area but I don't really know the hosts so it could be interesting.
Hey ruffian, you go, sister!
(Ruffian really is my sister!)
Posted by: Ruffian at August 18, 2007 12:00 PM
Actually, I'm hearing that the "...We will be wearing burkas..." a lot lately. Guess it's their frame.
I find it so ironic that the party that was usurped by the religiously religious (for lack of better word) was also the party that seems fully committed to racism, decimating equal rights, tearing into other religions, and promoting bigoted behavior against immigrants.
Posted by: karen at August 18, 2007 12:05 PM
You're suppose to say, "You go sista'"
I am working on a snappy come back to the burka line-something like-oh you think Americans wil just roll over and allow that to happen? Or you planning on surrending if we get invaded?
any help would be appreciated....
(BTW I am shocked Karen didn't faint over my cooking squash & zuccini!)
Posted by: Ruffian at August 18, 2007 12:13 PM
Can you carry your own burka for them. Then break into a resounding rendition of, "I feel pretty...Oh so pretty!" (When you get to the gay part well add some emphasis to that word...)
Posted by: Ruffian at August 18, 2007 12:13 PM
Well, yes, the idea of you actually COOKING VEGETABLES was a bit shocking. But you have come SO FAR from the days when your fridge contained only ice cream and beer!!
Keep going, you may make it to broccoli and peas yet...
On the burka thing: the line you will hear is the tired and limp: We have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here...
The response to that is, Are we CHICKEN shit or what?? Killing old men and young women in a country that never attacked us does not make it less likely we will be attacked here again.
If you were Abeer's uncle or cousin, what would your response be? Welcome for the conquerors? (Abeer is the 14-year old who was raped and her family murdered).
Maybe you can carry a picture of OBL and the Saudi Prince with you to show them. Where's the one with Bush kissing and holding hands with the Saudi King? And the one with Rummy shaking Sadam's hand?
Oh wait. Those are facts. Facts won't work.
Go with the singing.
sparrow. You have not heard her sing. ;)
Posted by: karen at August 18, 2007 12:30 PM
Well they always say that we're singing to the choir.
On a different note:
In this weeks ET. (Don't ask me how we got this magazine it just arrives in our mailbox and we hand it over to the teenager.) Anyways, this weeks ET has something useful in it: Reece Witherspoon in Rendition--a movie about her Egyptian husband who gets renditioned overseas.
Don't know if I'll watch this movie but I'm glad to see someone is out there bravely telling the truth. I hope Reece's presence will open a few more eyes for what they've done and for impeachment.
I know I have been told by many who have read The Canary in the Coalmine that it should be a movie. Anyone have Reece's phone number? She'd make a great Jesselyn Radack.
Maybe it's E.W. I don't know. IT's entertainment somthing or other.
Update from the recovery rooms:
Cleo just got up and made her own lunch. She is talking with friends on the phone.
Richard is passed out on the couch. Worrying about your daughter is so taxing...
(Ruffian really is my sister!)
Posted by: karen at August 18, 2007 12:05 PM
Does she know we dated back in the 50s? Its cool though cause my mom still doesn't know either.
And if I had been Abeers family (the ones not murdered) I would gladly have turned myself into a well placed bomb.
Amen on the chatter thing Sparrow. Chatter is a good word for it, but it keeps getting so loud it sounds more like a very large and very angry nest of wasps.
The anger is not just palpable, it's audible too. A frantic, furious, mortal buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Maybe DC really does have so much wind blowing through it, they honestly don't hear it above their own bloviating.
They are a bunch of idiots and fools. Poking at a hornets nest they can not even begin to understand the scope of.
I think people are not taking to the streets because, in a way, We understand these times are different than any other We have ever faced. Somewhere in here, We understand on a fundamental level, that these are Revolutionary times. We know marching can not settle it, it can only escalate it.
The streets is the last place you will want to be when this comes to a head.
That is where all that buzzzzing is coming from.
Well I'm heading off to Hempfest to work at the Dem booth and also to see travel guru Rick Steves talk anti-war and pro-NORML. Thankfully, this city is finally cracking down on meth labs, identity and car theft. Sly & Robbie were just in town, with Horace Andy, just legendary (they played with Marley for years). I'm neither a sinner nor an infidel, just open-minded/ moderation in all things.
Christy
I've been thinking that alot too - how now is different.
We have to be vigilant.
NMP,
I have no more illusions about our nations volitile situation.
My children are already being taught to fight.
And all of them but one, are very, very good at it already.
I truly fear the future they are facing. It terrifies me.
AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT:
David Beckham scores his first GOAL with LA Galaxy! (THIS IS BEAUTIFUL......)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpEvOklJHcw
avid beckham scores for the first time with la galaxy in a Superliga semifinal against DC united.
Added: August 15, 2007, 08:47 PM
From: jarm21
Views: 278,924
Rating:
363 ratings
Read A Book
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN2VqFPNS8w
02:50
This was shot on BET Animation and 106 and Park. IT IS A SATIRICAL OBSERVATION ON THE CURRENT RIDICULOUS, OFFENSIVE, AND EMBARRASS This was shot on BET Animation and 106 and Park. IT IS A SATIRICAL OBSERVATION ON THE CURRENT RIDICULOUS, OFFENSIVE, AND EMBARRASSING STATE OF THE ONCE NOBLE ART OF HIP HOP. THE RAPPER WHO MADE THE SONG IS ALSO SATIRING THE CURRENT POPULAR RAP MUSIC WHICH IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO EVERYTHING RAP WAS. WHILE MAKING THIS SOCIAL SATIRE, HE ALSO PROVIDE A POSITIVE MESSAGE AND A SOCIAL COMMENTARY.
African Americans, open your mind. This man is not offending us. He's smaking us in the face and saying Wake Up. This is what they think of us...and the reality is...most of it is true. (more) (less)
Added: July 21, 2007, 03:59 PM
From: tcphilosopher
Views: 506,860
Rating:
1629 ratings
Add Video to QuickList
Kim McFriendly at Republican Debate 08/05/07 Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfvmgVskNQ8
02:17
Part 2 of Senator McFriendly's highlights from the Republican debates on ABC. This time McFriendly addresses Health Care and Isla Part 2 of Senator McFriendly's highlights from the Republican debates on ABC. This time McFriendly addresses Health Care and Islamic Extremism. (more) (less)
Added: August 09, 2007, 11:30 AM
From: KimMcFriendlyDotCom
Views: 970
Rating:
8 ratings
All we have left really is prayer.
Our Constitution needs a miracle. So here goes... A prayer for our Constitution. From a patriot.
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Amen
It is time to fire most of them. Including pelosi and reid.
"The dispute illustrates how lawmakers, in a frenetic, end-of-session scramble, passed legislation they may not have fully understood and may have given the administration more surveillance powers than it sought."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/washington/19fisa.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1187458795-ryWiihl64nnLunJhyhwv7w&oref=slogin
Their mistake is, they honestly believe everyone is as stupid as they are. And as cowardly.
They are just daring us to stop them at this point.
I don't see any other option EXCEPT Revolution. They have hardly left any of us with a choice.
Posted by: Christy at August 18, 2007 02:38 PM
Agreed Christy. Now I'm sure there are a few states that still fly the "Red" flag, but most that I've seen have the US Flag upside down in the universal distress symbol.
And the beltway bobheads are still passing stupid laws pretending it's just politics as usual.
Sorry but in this case, you're definitely right! The buzz is like a wasp nests and they just don't realize it.
Posted by: Christy at August 18, 2007 03:24 PM
Yes, that prayer is beautiful. I have my kitchen decorated in grape/Tuscan theme, and I recently bought a beautiful picture of grapes at the top of parchment-type paper with that prayer on the lower part of the picture written in calligraphy.
(That is the 23rd Psalm, OT.)
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 12:07 PM
Actually, I think the religiously religious were usurped by the party (or parties) of the neocons.
I never heard any talk about supporting any political party EVER coming from the pulpit until 2000 and 2004. Not that it hasn't been going on for a while, because it has, in some denominations, but not the non-denominational ones I attended. EVER.
I think either party who is determined that they must have any and everything their party line demands is doomed, and so our country remains polarized over a few issues while the rest of the country goes to hell in a hand basket. Facts? It is fact.
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 04:00 PM
Oh. And I'm referring to former Republicans and current Republicans too. This isn't just the Dems and independants or nonpracticing people either.
We are all upset. (Except the 25-35% party loyalist.)
I feel it is appropriate today, don't you think
Northenrn Star
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qpIoNJCHd4
Posted by: TSP at August 18, 2007 04:11 PM
actually, I respectfully disagree with your statement, "religiously religious were usurped by the party (or parties) of the neocons". In terms of recent history, yes, the masses of 'religiously religious' were used and abused by Rove and his political machine. You can watch Moyer's now to see Rove's recent history and his plan that used the churches to get Bush elected in Texas and later the USA. This is a great video that I'm not sure if it got posted while I was awol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmwdevPRycY
Now with regards to past history, Falwell and the "moral majority" became a Political Action Campaign (PAC) way back in 1978. I encourage you to look at the history of the moral majority and the Christian 'right' beginning in 1978 and following it through today. The "Moral Majority" was not simply Christians but it included Conservative Jewish groups and those 'religiously religious' who decided to make an impact on politics and they used the Republican party (more than the Democratic party) to get what they wanted.
The wikipedia gives a detailed history of the Moral Majority and they include historical facts backed up with numerous links to its members and it's political activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority
For those not wanting to click the link, here is a sample of the history:
"The Moral Majority was a political organization of the United States which had an agenda of evangelical Christian-oriented political lobbying. It dissolved during 1989.
The Moral Majority was initiated as a result of a struggle for control of an American conservative Christian advocacy group known as Christian Voice during 1978. During a news conference by Christian Voice's founder, Robert Grant, he claimed that the Religious Right was a "sham... controlled by three Catholics and a Jew." Paul Weyrich, Terry Dolan, Richard Viguerie and Howard Phillips left Christian Voice. During a 1979 meeting, they urged televangelist Jerry Falwell to found Moral Majority. This was also the beginning of the New Christian Right.[1][2]
Moral Majority was an organization made up of conservative Christian political action committees which campaigned on issues its personnel believed were important to maintaining its Christian conception of moral law, a conception they believed represented the opinions of the majority of Americans (hence the movement's name). With a membership of millions, the Moral Majority was one of the largest conservative lobby groups in the United States. During the 1980 presidential election, the Moral Majority is credited with giving Ronald Reagan two-thirds of the white evangelical vote, over Jimmy Carter.[3]
Some issues for which the Moral Majority campaigned included:[4]
outlawing abortion opposition to state recognition and acceptance of homosexuality
opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment and Strategic Arms Limitation Talks enforcement of a traditionalist vision of family life censorship of media outlets that promote what it labeled as an 'anti-family' agenda
The Moral Majority had adherents in the two major United States political parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, though it exercised far more influence on the former.
Falwell was the organization's best known spokesperson throughout the 1980s. By 1982, Moral Majority surpassed Christian Voice in size and influence. The organization dissolved officially in 1989[4] but lives on in the Christian Coalition network initiated by Pat Robertson.[5]
In 1981, a series of exposés (later nominated for the Pulitzer Prize) by Memphis reporter Mike Clark led to some condemning the interactions between the Moral Majority and the Republican Party."
Equal Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yK561xgVtI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Farabwomanblues%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F2007%2F08%2Fpuppets%2Don%2Dstring%2Ehtml
CHENEY VIDEO IS #2 AT YOU TUBE FOR THIS WEEK'S MOST POPULAR!!! over a million hits
(Cheney is among cleavage, soccer and electric guitars)
Iraq
01:23
Added: 3 days ago
From: karinmoveon
Views: 1,058,776
2936 ratings
We just came back from a tour de la village, which is just adorable! One thing worth sharing--so many national flags hanging off balconies and in front of shops! We realize that nationalism is alive and well here in this international city, but competition is not.
Futbol and hockey matter; who has the *best* country does not. In fact, it seems like we in the USA ought to just SFTU.
Other flags are prettier and the money is worth just as much as ours--or more.
We need to make better bridges, not deeper canyons.
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 04:31 PM
The point I am making is that Rove (and others before him, but Rove was the brain-child of reaching every pulpit they could in America to push their Republican agenda on unsuspecting, unknowing religiously religious people, who, BTW, most of whom are still not aware that they were tricked and used by the Republican party, because the full effect of this trickle down disaster hasn't fully blown up yet.) Remember?
It was the internet that allowed people to get educated, because they sure weren't getting real news from tv or the newspapers. It was biased, and propagandized.
So then you run into the situation you had with some, who discerned all was not as told, and sought out and read on the internet, then took some of the information back to the church to try to educate them. And BECAUSE THIS INFORMATION is kept under wraps and guarded by the mainstream media, the only thing the religiously religious had to go on was whatever Dobson told them, or their bible, or their preacher. I know people to this day that say they will still vote Republican because Republicans voice the values they believe in, (even knowing they are corrupt.) because they cannot bring themselves to conscientously vote for those they don't. And, that is democracy. I am still waiting for another party to come in that truly has the peoples' best interest at heart, instead of greed, or the need to be right.
You can be right, and you can be DEAD right, which is what we all might be when this house of cards truly falls. And it's wobbly.
I still say I NEVER EVER heard a political comment come from a pulpit until 2000. I don't blame the people who sit in the pews and watch tv and believe what they are fed. Alot of them can't afford a computer, or don't have the time in between working their butts off to sit and read for hours every evening in between bringing home the bacon, frying it up in the pan, running the kids to Little League, keeping up with the house, car, laundry, and expenses. I will never again be mad at the people.
I know WHO set this convenient "marriage" up, and it WASN'T the MAJORITY of church going folks. How people can watch Pat Robertson I don't know, but they don't know any better. I doubt that Pat Robertson is even one iota aware HIMSELF of what has been done with the power the neocons got from the support of the Christian Coalition.
So I respectfully disagree with you on this one. There were a FEW Dominionist minded religiously religious folks, but the MAJORITY just wants to live as constructive a life as they know how, and have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT THE POWER BEHIND THEIR VOTES BOUGHT.
Why don't y'all write letters to Dobson and Robertson, and don't yell at them and call them looneys, but in love EDUCATE them?
Is that concept too organized for some in the party that is not in control?
I don't agree with everything the neocons/Republicans do, and I don't agree with everything the liberals/Democrats do. I think for myself, which is dangerous and can make one unpopular, I know.
Anyway, I say potataw, and you say potato
...I doubt that Pat Robertson is even one iota aware HIMSELF of what has been done with the power the neocons got from the support of the Christian Coalition.
...Why don't y'all write letters to Dobson and Robertson, and don't yell at them and call them looneys, but in love EDUCATE them?
Posted by: TSP at August 18, 2007 05:58 PM
I respectfully disagree with you once again. ~~~Sorry!!!! ;-(
But all of those people you just mentioned have SAT in at the White House with Bush, with Cheney, with Rove and have planned, planned, planned. They have been on conference call after conference call and they created the template for their listeners to follow.
It's because they have a philosophy and it goes something like, "Anything goes--winner takes all."
You are an independent thinker as are many Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Athiests are too; howoever, it is wrong to assume that just because one wants to be a 'good religious person' that one isn't able to recognise when they are being used by one party or the other.
You do touch on the complicity of the media and that is a fact that is absolutely true! But Dobson, Falwell, and even the Robertsons were not naive or stupid about what is going on. They made choices. Robertson was running for President and had to give up his tv show and his CNN commentator status. Dobson made direct threats to specific Congressmen to vote HIS WAY or he would go after them. (I believe your rep. was one who received his threat.) Dobson acknowledged that he was going to use Focus on the Family for PAC purposes.
It's like you have said yourself. People migrate towards communities they agree with. And the good people in the pews migrated towards those who had insider status with Rove, Bush, and Cheney as well as Bush Sr, Reagan, etc...
Sometimes, it's up to people to accept the wrong done in their name and make matters right from their wrongs. And when I hear Christians say, "I'm anti-war, I'm anti-poverty, and I'm for universal healthcare but I could never vote for a Democrat..." well that tells me that the indoctrination against Democrats and liberals is so deep and thorough that they are not willing to see through what they've been told from told down OR they are not willing to act against it.
I am not saying this in any personal way against you or anyone else I know. Frankly, I've got people in my own family who are not Christians who buy the whole 'terror-line' hook-line & sinker!
And that's where religious upbringing and fervor more within one party than another was mentioned. There are neoconservative Jews--like Lieberman and neoconservative Christians. (I doubt there are neoconservative Muslims for obvious reasons!) Regardless, we are living in times when religion and fear are being used to do things that would make God or Jesus cringe.)
On the religion conversation, please see:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ope-1Zb5t-k
The Untold Story of the Cheney 'Quagmire' Video
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2007/08/the_untold_story_of_the_cheney.html
I had this in video in my file for a long time and wondered why no one was using it. Even more interesting is a full speech by Cheney which gives his full assessment that Iraq and Sadaam was a threat to NO ONE. The speech is found here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041130090045/http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubs/soref/cheney.htm
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/sleuth/2007/08/the_untold_story_of_the_cheney.html
A 1991 speech by Cheney further defending the position that marching on to Baghdad would have been a mess. He talks about the large troop commitment needed to win back Kuwait, the difficulties of installing a government after deposing Saddam. Prophetic, really.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041130090045/http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/pubs/soref/cheney.htm
Posted by: sdemetri | August 17, 2007 03:33 PM
Speaking of Englightment, I didn't make Hempfest today but my "shift" at the booth is tomorrow anyway, and Rick Steves will be there both days. I took a long nap. Anyway, Kids, it's almost 4:20. Do you know where your parents are?
I did have lunch with my son and he has finished his degree! He hasn't had a weekend off in 6 years! He has worked EVERY weekend for 6 years. He hasn't had a vacation since he moved out at 18! He has had to work the whole time, though he has moved in between lease expirations. I am going to help him go to Thailand with a friend of ours in January. He'll have to renew his passport and because of his age, be fingerprinted.
Glad to see the religious discussion on-line instead of behind the scenes, even if there is disagreement. There is alot to think about, with another election coming up. & consider that whatever happened in 2000 and 2004 (or didn't), it's a whole new ballgame now. That's easy to see just from the change - emergence of YouTube, buying of MySpace and Dow Jones by Rupert Murdoch, continuing decrease in civil rights despite Dem majority, and volatility of the market (based on ours).
Mortgage Lender Lays off 6000
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=389476&ssid=51&ssname=World&sid=BUS&sname=LATEST-BUSINESS-NEWS
- speaking about Phoenix, but from India
- 6000 means 99% of the workforce in that company
- this lender is NOT a subprime lender!
Toddlers Can Now Get Married in Arkansas
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003842100_toddlers18.html
- as long as it's ok with their parents
& speaking of videos, I just checked to see what Kayakbiker is up to and he'd
posted a video of "mean girls," one of whom cites Anne Coulter as her model
http://www.silencedmajority.blogs.com
Scary
Okay, Sparrow and TSP are NOT fighting, they are having a very agreeable disagreement on an issue.
We both agree that someone left the cake out in the rain.
Karen, I haven't had time to look at your utube link yet, but I'll bet it's funny!
Just spoke with TSP. We're agreed--sort of. The party's have been taken over by corporations and by religious 'dominists'. Of course there is disagreemnt, slightly about which came first the chicken or the egg, but overall, we've agreed that right now both parties are a disappointment and that the 'little guy' is in bad trouble as a result.
So now that we're agreed on that, we're back to talking about what we should do, since nobody knows what to do anymore!
NMP,
The state of the economy and the recent volatility on our market is very very scarey.
You see, when the recession hit in 2001, they had people refinance their homes to get spending money. Now it's time to pay the piper.
As far as disagreeing on the blog or off, it should be okay to disagree. We just got off the phone and we are still liking each other. :-D
No cat fights.
Karen,
I watched it. Liked the part about weak arm muscles and Mars. And Luther leaving the note on the door in German.
Good video Karen. (lol)
I think we should all go outside and ride our bikes!!!
Come on now, JUMP IN, join the discussion.
Really, I am out for the evening.
TSP
Good to read your words. I see the conversations as productive debate, as long as participants are willing to learn from each other. I didn't read them thoroughly because of multi-tasking (I'm installing some software), but I know we can be respectful vs the cat fight mentality. Leave that to pundits like Coulter.
I looked at what Kayakbiker posted about the "mean girls" and had to drop the link from when Anne tried to argue with a Canadian newscaster, insisting to him that Canada had been in Vietnam (they weren't). People who don't listen don't learn. She doesn't learn. I was thinking about that yesterday. First there is speculation that she isn't a woman. That aside, she has no respect for women, like the wives of those who died on 9/11. She recently insulted woman schoolteachers.
Someone sent me yesterday a long piece, one of five, by a guy named DogEmperor, who writes at DailyKos and has a couple of blogs. He was raised in the Dominionist tradition and is now a scathing critic. The latest piece was on conquest of certain portions of the media bandwidth by people he now doesn't trust.
This is not a negative comment on religion in general or on Christianity in general, but a warning along the lines of how certain radical elements bonded to help in the destruction of the concept of separation of church and state. The post I was sent does not have a specific link but is full of hot links that do not transfer if I cut and paste. Best to go to YearlyKos and look for DogEmperor and check out his diaries. Bear in mind I haven't read them all yet.
and promoting bigoted behavior against immigrants.
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 12:07 PM
I'm sorry, but the immigrants have fully supported the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the Republicans, thanks to their own Third World primitive values.
They fully deserve the rat treatment from the Republicans. I am happy that they are getting it.
And the Republicans would make a GREAT ruling party. Of a Third World banana republic, that is.
More Wiki busts
Organization that helped Florida scrub voters in 2000 caught editing Wikipedia
I found that Choicepoint, the database organization that scrubbed black voters that shared the same information as felons in 2000, has been caught editing Wikipedia.
Here are some of the corporation's edits.
Deleted references to Greg Palast's book, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and the US Commission on Civil Right's report on voting irregularities in Florida during the 2000 Election. Here
Deleted all the criticisms regarding Choicepoint's work in Florida. Here
Deleted references to Database Technologies, the service that was used in Florida. Here
Deleted it's diversity rating. Here
Deleted quotes about it. Here
Deleted all external links except for one (The one that goes straight to it's website). Here
Deleted a request to clean up the page on it's talk page (Which I believe is not allowed by the way). Here
Deleted the entire talk page. Here
Propaganda. Here
Wrote clear propaganda and deleted the information about Florida in the process. Here
Removed a clean up request. Here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1612636
TSP,
Read the last thread and the rat treatment they gave your mother. Sorry to hear about what happened - I wouldn't have held my composure if I were you.
I agree with Karen's assessment that anyone who dares to talk about the greatest nation on Earth, ought to STFU.
Posted by: Not My President at August 18, 2007 07:54 PM
It's a Mann, baby!
I doubt there are neoconservative Muslims for obvious reasons!
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 06:40 PM
I beg to disagree again.
Same crap - sexism, racism, homophobia - that afflict the Muslims as much as they do the Latin American Catholics or the Korean Protestants.
In France, anti-immigration Jean-Marie Le Pen pulled as much support from Muslim immigrants as he did from the general French public, precisely because Le Pen shared the Muslims' homophobia.
It's no different in the US. In 2000, Muslims overwhelmingly voted for the family values guy - W. The only reason Muslims voted less for W in 2004 was because of the witch hunt.
One more strike against immigration:
It's thanks to slave-wage legal immigrants, and of course the illegals, that Americans are working ever harder for less.
If you are willing to take all the vacations/weekends you can, your boss can always call someone in from overseas who will work for half the wage (and live in crowded shacks) with much less fuss.
Immigration is NOT going to help us, especially on the progressive quality-of-life end, at all.
Posted by: sparrow at August 18, 2007 06:40 PM
I doubt there are neoconservative Muslims for obvious reasons!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not to be a smart ass here, but..........................
Neoconservatism has a very different meaning in Iran where it is used synonymously with neo-fundamentalism to indicate the conviction that religious authority should be legally enforced (Shia fundamentalism), but coupled with a regard for modernist ideas of technological and social change, often drawing on populism, marxism and fascism. Another synonym is radical fundamentalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_%28disambiguation%29
Immigration laws are on the books in any sovereign country, to control who can/can't come into the country, to limit foreign influence in domestic politics, and to make sure that native population does not face unfair competition.
On that front, American immigration policy is a COMPLETE FAILURE.
Of course there are neocon Muslims. We call them the Taliban.
And they are just as sick, radical, stupid and incapable of mercy as are white neocons.
If the rove-georgie-dick neocons had their way, I bet we would absolutely resemble the Taliban in almost every way.
See, that is why people like Michelle Malkin cracks me up. She is all for stereotyping and detaining forieners/ NON AMERICANS/ and other US citizens, but the little moron must not have looked in a mirror lately.
I, mean, really, what a little idiot.
She is one of the first group that WE, as the white version of the Taliban, would throw into those detention camps.
Along with anyone else who has funny shaped eyes, strangely spelled names, a muslim mother, not to mention all the gays, athiests, poets, porn stars, and plenty of other decent human beings.
Well, on second thought, I am sure the republican taliban would find a loophole to spare the porn stars since 65% of all 'christian' males and a full 40% of all 'christian' females readily admit they are addicted to PORN.
Wow, these people have so little imagination.
But then again, the actual taliban also lacks that exact thing as well.
As this thread meanders through some very interesting comments. I would like to post a link regarding another Bush screw up. This screw up is as criminal as the "Brownie" appointment and sadly similar. If the miners and their families ever hear about this (and it is hard to say what exactly is keeping them from them hearing the truth), I suspect that they will shove Bush down one of those God forsaken camera tunnels.
I sure hope to God that the miners who may have voted to continue with our current Administration are given the truth from their ministers, newspapers, T.V. and radios. They deserve no less.
___________________________________________________________________________
Mine Safety Czar Richard Stickler: Another Bush Fox Guarding the Henhouse
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/15/mine-safety-czar-richard-_n_60581.html
Christy,
Asians are spared. They are the Model Minority (TM) - they succeed and make tons of money, without the need for public services like blacks and Latinos.
In fact, I am pretty sure that those concentration camps will be run by the likes of Toyota, Samsung, and Hyundai.
Which does reinforce my point (and yours) though: old, bald, fat, greedy Asian men are as evil as their white counterparts.
"Asians are spared."
I think our history clearly shows we would be most willing to detain Asians FIRST. We already have done it.
We are most likely to inter Asians because they are the group that looks the LEAST like a stereo typical American.
I do agree though that large corporations will be running the camps, but not from INSIDE the USA, lest they also are seen with different shaped eyes, brown skin, or a strange name.
"..they succeed and make tons of money, without the need for public services like blacks and Latinos."
Which is all the MORE reason to detain Asians.
To steal their wealth and sieze their assets.
Hitler didn't start rounding up Jews simply because he hated Jews. It did not start out as mass murder.
It started out as the theft of a lifetime.
Why rob a bank?
Cause that is where the money is baby.
Do you realize we both refferred to 'the camps' as if they are an unavoidable future....?
God help us.
Would like oncall's comments about this subject.
Posted by: Bubba at August 17, 2007 12:06 PM
_________________________________________________________________________________
Just catching up on some prior threads:
I am looking at homes in Vancouver!
On a more serious note, I can say that there is absolutely no doubt our economy can not sustain our current health care system.
There is no doubt our system is not balanced and that all Americans are not treated equally.
I honestly believe that a universal plan that requires all Americans to be insured is the only realistic hope for an equitable system. However, the management of that system can not be in the government's (politicians) hands. I think that managing an enormous system like health care can best be managed by a quasi private corporation under strict federal control. For example, Fannie Mae Corporation is a strictly regulated successful mortgage financier. With that type of management, we are less likely to see the graft and inequality that is destined to occur with a government run program. Likewise, I do believe that private management is more likely to be cost effective.
Americans however will have to accept the fact that the system will not be able to accommodate everybody when ever they feel they need a medical procedure. That means that patients who want to have tests "just to be sure" that there are no problems won't have those done. I don't think any of us expect elective plastic surgery to be a benefit of such a plan. The market for plastic surgery has not dried up and it won't under a universal plan either. Also medicine will be practiced as close to "evidence based" that it can be. There will have to be a lot of adjustment and education. Take it from me, some people really think they are medical doctors, but they have no idea what they are talking about.
My concerns about the government involvement stem from the very recent development from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). An edict was delivered that CMS would no longer pay for ESAs (erythropoietin stimulating agents - these stimulate the bone marrow to make more red blood cells) under certain circumstances. The decision was purely economic and not based on accepted medical literature. Some actually would be considered malpractice. For example, Jehovah's Witnesses will not accept blood transfusions and there are certain circumstances in which the CMS would not pay for these agents when it is medically indicated for their particular situation.
Neocon Muslims?
My best friend in Paris went to vote for the first time and it was a primary so you had to ask for a certain ballot.
He said two Arabic guys asked for the Fascist ballot (that would be Le Pen).
They turn against their own just like any group, including white-bread Americans.
Christy
Malkin is a good example of self-hating.
Hey Oncall,
Can you tell me how to deal with this situation?
My sister in law, her daughter totally screwwed up and got pregnant and gave birth to her first grandchild at 16.
Her work insurance was ridiculous and the girl had to go on medicaid. He was born 3 months ago. For whatever his underaged mothers problems are, he is a really beautiful and sweet baby.
Anyways, my sister in law winds up taking the baby in for a checkup with a new pediatrician. (He had been seen at the local Health Unit the first 3 months).
This doctor came in and saw my sister in law holding this tiny baby, and she said he looked confused and started asking her how old she was. She told him 36. Then he asked her how many children SHE had.
She then got confused. She told him 4. And said he started asking her about her marrige and all kinds of totally irrelevent stuff, but she was thinking it was like for family medical history or something... She was already upset/ uncomfortable when he started asking her about the babies medicaid.
At some point the doctor gets...upset.. himself and flatly states that he is 'tired of his taxes'...'paying for YOU people'.
She said he was ranting and just blurted it out and just glared at her.
He then leaves the room and slams the door behind him.
My sister in law has had a full time job since she was 16 and had all of her children were born in marriage. The only time she ever took off work was to have her children.
She was so shocked and upset she burst into tears, and got herself and the baby the hell out as fast as possible.
The baby still hasn't seen a regular doctor.
My sister in law is one of those real patient and sweet people who does not want 'any trouble'. She simply wants to find another doctor and just let it go but, as of now medicaid will not give her a new doctor and she has no idea what to do about it.
Niether do I.
Any advice?
PS...Louisiana ranks dead last in health care, so standard procedure may not apply.
Christy,
Our community has a clinic for people who have absolutely no form of health insurance (If I may brag a bit, my wife was one of the founders). It is completely staffed by volunteers - including the doctors who don't get paid a dime for their time. The local hospitals have agreed to provide services for patients referred from the clinic. My practice and other specialty practices regularly see patients referred from the Community Clinic. Do you have such a resource in your area? If so, they may be able to provide the health care the baby requires. Cook County has clinics as well (my mother was a pediatrician at one of the poorest clinics one can imagine - I know you have seen poor, but so have I). If the County has a clinic, then maybe the baby can get the health care it needs.
As an aside, I would write a letter to the state licensing authorities (explaining what you have written here) with a copy to the local newspapers.
Posted by oncall at August 18, 2007 11:48 PM
While the insurance industry says "yea" and "nay" to people who need care - having been born with a congenital lifelong condition - American health care will continue to stink.
If a country with only 21 million people - including all from ages 0 to 18 and 60 to 100 plus - can manage to provide hospital care for ALL its citizens. Not just mickey mouse quackery here - I have a specialist who presented a paper at an International conference in Montreal last year. If I can receive his skills every month and hospital treatments at no cost to me, then I do not understand why a country the size of America can't do it.
When insurance companies become involved it doubles the cost of health care because not only hospitals need to make money, but the insurance corps do as well. Have you ever wondered why your insurance costs a small house mortgage every year, when all they will actually pay out for you is your daily newspaper? Perhaps they'll cough up for 1 bed for 1 night if they can't prove that it's a preexisting condition.
Either way, the only way to be able to afford insurance is to become as ruthless and wealthy, by preying on misery, as the insurers.
There is a community clinic, not sure medicaid will pay for it cause they are not the 'approved' physician. But I know they do go on base income if you don't have medicaid, so it might be affordable if medicaid won't listen to reason.
" I know you have seen poor, but so have I"
Oh, I am most certain of it sir.
I have never seen anything drive someone to poverty like cancer.
I was thinking about you the other day, when Monkey posted that horrble story about the woman with cancer thrown off her balcony.
I am sure you see desperate people on a daily basis. I will never know how people like you maintain the strength to face it. I could not do it.
You are much stronger than I. For sure.
Posted by: Christy at August 18, 2007 11:21 PM
I seriously disagree.
Any race that comes up with such a right-wing savior as Reverend Moon, will get its rewards.
Fox News was quick to absolve the Korean culture of ANY responsibility in the Virginia Tech massacre. They really are fair and balanced to their Korean buddies - something they never do to blacks and Latinos.
And the Korean corporations like Samsung and Hyundai will be more than happy to oblige the ethnic cleansing requirements of their Confucian older brother benefactor - Republican US of A.
Seriously, I hate South Korea as much as you hate Saudi Arabia. It's a very evil, very primitive country with too much influence over us.
PS...Louisiana ranks dead last in health care, so standard procedure may not apply.
Posted by: Christy at August 19, 2007 12:12 AM
California is pretty close. Thank your Korean neighbors.
Malkin is a good example of self-hating.
Posted by: Not My President at August 18, 2007 11:51 PM
For no reason whatsoever.
At least when I have gripes against my "own kind," I have valid grievances.
Hi Oncall, how you going? Hi all
Posted by: oncall at August 18, 2007 11:48 PM
I'd like a Canadian immigration visa too, but I have no idea on how the hell I'll qualify, short of winning the lottery and becoming an investor.
I agree with you on one thing: there is NO WAY IN HELL I expect the sorry federal government that we have to administer a fair healthcare plan. Too much ideological/religious infighting will ensue.
"Thank your Korean neighbors."
Sorry darlin, but I don't have any Jorean nieghbors. There probably is not a single Korean living within a 40 mile radius of me.
The south only has two colors. If you are not black, or white...you don't exist.
Even the Mexicans are so well hidden, you are only likely to see one at WalMart, only cause there is no place else left to shop.
And hello Rossi love. How are you?
I am about to punch out for the day, 5 am on sunday morning should be sacraliage, but I am most certain I will be waking up somewhere there abouts anyway.
Damn alarm clock has me trained like a Pavlovian dog. Even when it isn't set, I still drool right on time.
Not sure what a Jorean is, but I don't have any Korean neighbors either.
Posted by: woz at August 19, 2007 12:28 AM
If I can receive his skills every month and hospital treatments at no cost to me, then I ........"
Actually there is a cost to you. There is also the same costs to everybody else in your country. Those costs are reasonable,fair, and aren't gouging your economy the way health care costs are here. It is unrealistic for people to think that they are getting their health care for "free."
Posted by: Christy at August 19, 2007 12:36 AM
Thank you, that is very kind.
The people need educated.
HOW CAN WE EDUCATE THEM? It is the only answer, because uneducated people (about politics and the state of the world) are vulnerable.
You know what I would like to see happen? I would love to see people stop bitching about it all and try to come up with a solution. That's what Karen and Sparrow do every single day.
The only answer I see is educating people who know nothing but the propaganda.
Again I will say that our country has become a people who work two and three jobs, their wives work, and their time is extremely limited as far as the amount of time they have to stop working and doing all their chores long enough to actually learn something. And McFaux drive thru news just doesn't cut it.
Why can't people organize and do what the neocons have done by actually telling the people in the rural areas what is really happening to their future? And if all they do in their downtime is watch tv, go to movies, and to church, get a media for truth, make more movies like Michael Moore has made, and get that word out there to all the pulpits. Karl Rove made sure he covered every single church in the rural areas.
I add that I don't know how to get such movements organized, and that leads to frustration and a sense of not being empowered.
Don't Dems have money? Why can't they organize like the neocons have? Why can't they get organized enough to get the hard facts about voter fraud and suppression and fixed elections,
and the billions of dollars being thrown into the fiasco of contractors in Iraq being paid for doing a job and paying a crew that doesn't even exist out there?
Rove has a PR firm that covers the political agenda and sends polarizing email messages to people whose names are on church lists. They phone the ones who don't have email.
We have one year left, and we have discovered what the problems are, but we don't know how to organize to educate people. If we have to use Rove as a role model, then we should study up on how he infiltrates the rural and religious Americans and do the same. I don't know how he got all the names of people in churches, but he saw a bulls eye and went for it.
And, if they know (IM not popular O)they will lose the moral debate by leaning so far to the left, why do they continue to do it? Isn't the welfare of the people what REALLY matters more than being right (for both sides)?
Karen, that utube video was funny to a point, because you know my sense of humour pertaining to how absurd things get even when arguing religion.
But I am telling you that there are ALOT of innocent uneducated people voting against their own best interest because the only down time many of these overworked underpaid middle and lower class people have is television and church.
I am going to give this more thought, because we could just watch what Rove has done and do the same thing. I said that three years ago. Problem is, as Monkey once pointed out, Rove wasn't bilked (Rome wasn't built) in a day. It took years.
Doesn't anybody have money or the ability to raise enough money to get the word out there? It should have been started 4 years ago.
I'm honestly not being critical, because I don't know how to go about organizing the way Rove has, but you have to admit he was smart enough to see the vulnerable spots and get in there and brainwash them for years.
Either way, the only way to be able to afford insurance is to become as ruthless and wealthy, by preying on misery, as the insurers.
Posted by: woz at August 19, 2007 12:28 AM
It is sad, woz, but true.
Posted by: oncall at August 19, 2007 01:15 AM
Of course it is not free. We pay for it, but we don't pay twice. We pay the 8% medicare levy - and that's it. Of course the richer pay more and usually have insurance on top of it, which is fairly pointless on many occasions.
Insurance companies prey on your fear. We have home owners from serious flooding being refused payments from their insurance company.
Richard Stickler, Mine Safety and Health Administrator, is giving a news conference on the Utah rescue operation. No sign of life so far.
Here's a good one for some of us to look into:
someone told me that Richard Stickler was appointed by George W. Bush, and has voted against funds and stricter laws pertaining to the mining occupation.
I'm afraid I probably won't have time. My day is swamped tomorrow, and then I am away for a bit.
If anyone knows how to research Mr. Stickler and his voting record, it might turn out to be interesting.
And, oncall, since I no longer pay tax, yes I've had 3 admissions to hospital this year - under the specialist I mentioned earlier. First time for 10 days. I've also been to Emergency several times. So, in actual fact, I guess I really don't pay for it. And my GP bulk bills so I don't pay anything for a GP consultation either.
There is no way I'd have survived as an American.
So does Bush have anything to say about thousands without food and water in Peru?
On the health care issue again - I pay under $5 for each prescription filled. And because I have a chronic illness, I get government approval to get the medication by the "6 pack" for the price of one -
I belong to a health cooperative so I can only go to them and their personnel. I only go to the Dr. for pap smear and mammogram. I have not missed a day of work since I started in 1998 at my current job. By not taking any "sick days" I can have more vacation days. I have also arranged my schedule so I work a full week T-F so that I do not work on Mondays. I therefore receive no Monday holiday pay such as for Labor Day or Memorial Day, but again, I can apply that to vacation time.
So it's still very unfair, as workers at my level in Europe etc. would get more vacation time than I do PLUS more holiday time and more sick time. Mine is all in one "pot" so I have to scheme to be able to take time off. It is almost impossible to take two consecutive weeks. It takes alot of extra work.
I have two brothers, both married with children, and I have one son. None of these people have any health coverage. If they were to need medical care, they would have to pay it 100% out of pocket. They all live from paycheck to paycheck so have no savings, to speak of, and some are in debt because of a business that went bad. No help from the government.
The shocking story of American health negligence:
http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
For Shame
Young adults (18-to-24 years old) remained the least likely of any age group to have health insurance in 2005 – 30.6 percent of this group did not have health insurance
Two of America’s biggest retailers, Home Depot and Wal-Mart, have warned that sales are being affected by consumer indebtedness. The chief executive of Wal-Mart pointed out that it was hardly a secret that many Americans were short of money at the end of every month and that, presumably as a direct result of this, shoplifting from his stores was rising.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/investment/article2283209.ece
(Owners are Bush supporters, of course)
Mine Safety Czar Richard Stickler: Another Bush Fox Guarding the Henhouse
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/08/15/mine-safety-czar-richard-_n_60581.html
Posted by: oncall at August 18, 2007 11:10 PM
Thanks, oncall, and I'm so sorry I didn't see your post before I brought Stickler up. I thought I had read most of the thread, from the bottom up for a while, then from the top down, but I missed the Stickler link you posted.
My dad called me to tell me that Stickler has a record of cutting funds for safety. My dad might be 90 years old, but he knows what's going on in politics. He's pretty sharp, and reads alot.
He also reads between the lines.
Well, on second thought, I am sure the republican taliban would find a loophole to spare the porn stars since 65% of all 'christian' males and a full 40% of all 'christian' females readily admit they are addicted to PORN.
Posted by: Christy at August 18, 2007 11:06 PM
Christy, darlin', you got stats to back that up?
I know that alot of the males are, but have never met a woman who was addicted to porn. Do you have a link?
Evangelicals addicted to porn poll
http://christiannews.christianet.com/1154951956.htm
I do not vouch for its credibility .. just looking it over myself.
I have just read same thing on RawStory. I think it's fairly natural curiosity - Google, see what you find, no one knows. The thing about porn - after 5-10 minutes it has kind of a bland sameness. It doesn't seem real. I think it's just curiosity and the more people try to suppress it, the more curious people will be. Nevertheless, it should be a self-containing thing, and become boring after the curiosity subsides. If not, it's probably a substitute for something in real life, and I'm sure that would affect men or women, as long as their knew their furtive Googling was anonymous and undetected.
Immigration laws are on the books in any sovereign country, to control who can/can't come into the country, to limit foreign influence in domestic politics, and to make sure that native population does not face unfair competition.
On that front, American immigration policy is a COMPLETE FAILURE.
Posted by: Ally McRepuke at August 18, 2007 11:02 PM
Ally, I couldn't agree with you more. I have friends who winter in Southern California and summer up here. They said there are 10% whites in Southern California.
I drove to the nearest city three days ago, and saw many many immigrants that have migrated up here. I thought I had found a safe place, because they totally ruined my home town by invading it in droves and living 10 working adults to an apartment. I can no longer afford to live in the town I grew up in, because the influx of immigrants from Mexico pushed the Californians to sell and move to Nevada, which caused (because of supply and demand) the rents, housing prices, utility bills and food prices in Nevada to soar past what I could afford, even while working my behind off. Twenty five years ago I could maintain a home, pay all my bills, and buy groceries on a single woman's paycheck. There is no way I could do that now.
I saw it grow from a town of 10,000 to an overpopulated city of 600,000 in thirty years.
Anyway, I thought I had found a safe place, because it is like going back three or four decades in this peaceful little town. The city nearest here is 67 miles away, but already their crime rate has gone way up in the last year, along with their living expenses. I came home a bit concerned about it, because I know what happened to my home town because of the crazy illegal immigration problem.
I talked to a gentleman today who said that he has a buddy from college who lived in Southern California, and the immigrants and the resulting population and economic problems that are a result of them pouring in to our country caused him to move to Florida. He said today though that his friend recently moved way up here from Florida, because it had become as nuts in Florida as it was in So. Cal. Very scarey. And I know it's not a popular thing to say around the far left, but I consider it to be terribly unfair to the natives.
NMP, I will read those articles. Thanks. I know the problem is prevelant among mails, but as I said I have never heard of a "religious" woman being addicted to porn. I will read them on a break tomorrow, it is very late here and I am totally exhausted because I am up way past my bedtime!
TSP
I have looked at them before (internet porn) but quickly became bored, as they are repetitious, and would never spend credit card money on them. I could imagine that someone religious would do same and might feel more guilt, but it would have to be someone who was dissatisfied in real life and I could hardly imagine that the porn would satisfy. It's so far removed from real life - maybe that's the attraction for some. I would definitely think a curiosity to take a "peek" would be a far cry from an addiction. There is such an exploitation element in that money is made.
As for males and a porn "problem," religious or otherwise, I would think it would correspond with a certain laziness - in fantasy, there is no expectation of pleasing or communicating with an actual flesh and blood female, just the cartoonish fake-acting female in the porn video, with over-exaggerated movements and vocalizations. It is beyond fake, as Courtney Love would say.
NMP, I decided to read your link before I retire. Those stats were 50% men and 20% women. Oh, well.
They are human, they are just church-going humans. I told you it wasn't true that they don't like sex! ;-) People are just people and horny at certain times of their lives. I don't know what the stats are for secular porn lovers and I'm too tired tonight to look it up. Night.
By the way, I came to really respect Tammy Faye Bakker (Messner), as she showed compassion for people, including gays. I felt sad when she died. I came across this when reading further.
http://www.crunchable.net/articles/?p=438
NMP,
I haven't gone into any porn sites, but I have to admit I DID go look at the picture of Britney Spear's noony when it was at the height of the news frenzy. I wanted to see if it was special, but it didn't look special to me. Ha ha, I am now getting silly, I am tired, and I AM going to bed.
Another link on porn and Christian women
http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070728/UPDATES01/70728004
This actually fills me with more compassion. It's so human, the combination of curiosity, comparison with the impossible standards set by the media - possibly universal. I think there needs to be moderation - a middle ground between repression and debauchery.
Posted by: Not My President at August 19, 2007 03:07 AM
Yes, I used to think Tammy Faye's make-up was ridiculous, but I also noticed that she remained positive and upbeat and forgave her ex-husband for all the hurt he caused her. To her dying day she was exemplary as far as charity and love goes. I'm sorry she had to suffer like she did, but she was a fighter.
Nighty nite.
P.S. NMP,
"Jay represents a new kind of evangelical leader, holding church in bars and going all over town putting up stickers that say "As Christians we apologize for being such self-righteous bastards" and "Jesus is the savior, not Christianity."
Sounds like my kinda guy.
TSP
That sounds cool. Can't paint them all with one brush.
I just read an article about how Muslims aren't Methodists - it was about how the middle east has been misread. Parts of it are tribal. There is no way to just "liberate" one sector and all the others will follow. It's unthinkable! & now we all must pay.
between repression and debauchery.
Posted by: Not My President at August 19, 2007 03:12 AM
I think you would be surprised (or not) at how close alot of statistics are between religious and secular people on alot of issues. They are just people trying to find themselves and answers in this world.
TSP
Wouldn't bother with the porn sites. You aren't missing anything. As I said, they are beyond fake, but I guess that's what some people need who can't deal with real humans. It's all just a fantasy, one that people will pay for with their credit cards, like many other fantasies - such as that the right sports car will suddenly transform someone into something they could never be. It's a really exploitative dynamic behind it, both for those who pose and those who are patrons. Granted, they may make some money but it's an outgrowth of capitalism not far removed from hard drug culture and mafia-type criminals.
TSP
I agree the statistics would be similar between religious/secular.
There are certain things about being a human that are universal.
NMP, P.S.S. (and then I AM going to bed),
And there are alot of self righteous bas**rds out there in the lot. Too many, but it's suppose to be a growth process.
Secular people get haughty about their wealth, abilities, education, possessions, accomplishments, etc. Christian people get haughty about all those things plus the fact that they forget that Christianity is all about forgiveness and grace, not about being a faux perfect person. There is no such thing as a perfect person, religion or not.
Yup I was wrong, it was 50% and 20%.
Still seems like a lot of porn for a bunch of God fearing christians.
I am not sure why christian women being addicted to porn is surprising though. All religion suppresses womens sexually, and any time you repress it, it will take on a life of its own.
The statistic that really shocked me was like 80% of catholic women either use, or have no problem with birth control.
It just shows yet again how backwards churches are, and how their message is archiaic and hypocritical.
I think it is that kind of hypocrisy that causes most people to not attend church.