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Torture Therapy
Today I bring you, for our discussions, torture on the couch.
Last week, at the San Francisco meeting of the American Psychological Association, the ethical concerns of the members about any sanctioning of psychologists' presence at torture sessions at GITMO (or elsewhere), came up. Eight panels on the subject were formally scheduled. Countless conversations and strategy sessions ensued. As a result of overwhelming membership disapproval of the practice of having psychologists present at GITMO "information-gathering" sessions, the following was decided:
SAN FRANCISCO - The nation's largest group of psychologists scrapped a measure Sunday that would have prohibited members from assisting interrogators at Guantanamo Bay and other U.S. military detention centers.
The American Psychological Association's policy-making council voted against [editor's boldface] a proposal to ban psychologists from taking part in any interrogations at U.S. military prisons "in which detainees are deprived of adequate protection of their human rights."
A friend who attended the conference told me:
I just got back from the APA convention where I was a presenter on [one of eight] panels of an Ethics and Interrogations mini-convention and worked with my colleagues on the protest rally. We lost the vote but are winning the public relations war in the press except for a whitewash article in the Washington Post that reads like a puff piece put out by the APA. The meetings were constant, wild, tumultuous and exhausting. Specific APA collaborators with the DoD and White House were outed, leading to harangues and hate mail to the whistle blower [ ED note: presumedly from the WH and collaborators to the person who identified the collaborators].
They hoodwinked the Council of Reps with their completely scripted line and full court press, but they unleashed the floodgates as rank and file psychologists took notice and began to protest with us.
[I am liking the picture of thousands of caring psychologists sitting in back rooms and bars trying to figure out how to engage their colleagues into activism.]
In further drama, Dr, Jean Marie Arrigo, who was a member of the task force looking into the development of interrogation techniques at GITMO by psychologists back in 2005, gave a speech in which she exposed the military links within that committee. The following quotes are taken from a Democracy Now report:
After just two days of deliberations, the task force concluded that psychologists were playing a “valuable and ethical role” in assisting the military.
When the report was released, however, it did not include a list of its members. It wasn’t until a year later that that the membership was finally published in Salon.com. It revealed that that six of nine voting members were from the military and intelligence agencies with direct connections to interrogations at Guantanamo and elsewhere.
Dr. Jean Maria Arrigo was one of three civilian members of the 2005 PENS task force. At this weekend’s annual convention she exposed the inner workings of the group and has turned over all of her notes to the Senate Armed Services Committee which has promised to hold a hearing.
You will want to read the transcript or listen to the speech.
Meanwhile, the ongoing PR war is being covered at Daily Kos by Valtin, who was also at the conference:
Postmortem: APA Torture Resolution Puzzle
Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:58:14 PM EST
A close reading of the resolution shows that not much has changed since the last time APA took up this issue in 2006. I commented then that an abandonment of international laws and treaties in order to rely for definitions of CUID upon U.S. constitutional standards meant an evisceration of protections against involvement in coercive interrogations.
This essay looks closely at the inner workings of this latest resolution by the largest psychological association in the world, and why it is woefully inadequate.
[Ed. Note: worth bookmarking; lots of detailed information about the ethical and legal issues involved]
And from yesterday:
Backlash Grows on Psychologist Torture Resolution
the piece ends with this:
All of my life I have tried my best to stand up for those with no voices and no power. The prisoners our government labels as enemy combatants are in this category.
I return my citation as a matter of conscience and in the hopes that the APA will reconsider its current unethical position.
The APA has proved it is out of the mainstream of decent society when it approved a resolution that allowed the degradation of its own basic principles, and showed more regard for militarism and abusive treatment than it did consideration for the well-being of individuals at places where psychologists may work.
Shame and infamy upon APA.
It is not too late for APA to call a special meeting of its Council of Representatives to repeal its infamous resolution and approve the original but suppressed resolution for a complete ban on psychologists at Guantanamo, CIA Black Sites, and other prisons where torture rules, and human rights are suppressed.
I find the outcry as heartening as anything I have seen or heard about lately. Even though it is so very late for such outrage, at least it is happening and in very public and dramatic ways. Now if we can just get the lamestream media to cover it...
My quiet, deeply private and highly professional friend is contemplating his/her own next steps:
...now I have to decide how involved I want to continue to be and how much trouble I want to get into. I don't think we psychologists realized how high stakes it was until we saw the full court press in operation this weekend.
The full court press of this administration is horrifying enough. The stakes grow ever higher and I have to ask the question once again, HAVE WE HAD ENOUGH YET??
And, what are you going to do about it?
Our friend Kevin Spidel forwarded a note from his organization, Amnesty International, which has led on the torture issue:
Hello blogger,
Today Amnesty International lauched a major online initiative to tear down Guantanamo Bay one pixel at a time. This site is like no other, and seeks to engage a much broader audience than has ever been engaged on this issue. We'd love it if you would take a moment and check it out at www.tearitdown.org.
As always, thanks for the time. Let me know what you think, would love to hear from you.
Steve Daigneault
Director, Internet Communications
Amnesty International USA
Great story and graphic!
Torture, justification, coverup.
Then the other coverup story, same players?
Whistleblowers r/t fraud and waste and corruption in Iraq are being detained and tortured. TruthOut had it and it's top recommended diary at DailyKos.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/24/22411/1187
Torture is what ties the two stories together, such as being tortured for reporting illegal arms sales.
On the interrogation of Jose Padilla, Democracy Now did a great job interviewing the psychologist who interviewed Padilla about his interrogation:
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/16/1416242
In a Democracy Now! national broadcast exclusive, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Angela Hegarty speaks for the first time about her experience interviewing Jose Padilla for 22 hours to determine the state of his mental health. Padilla is the U.S. citizen who was classified by President Bush as an enemy combatant and held in extreme isolation at a naval brig in South Carolina for over three-and-a-half years. His case is now before a Florida jury. "What happened at the brig was essentially the destruction of a human being's mind," said Dr. Hegarty. "[Padilla's] personality was deconstructed and reformed." She said the effects of the extreme isolation on Padilla are consistent with brain damage. "I don't know if he's guilty or not of the charges that they brought against him," said Dr. Hegarty. "But, already - before he was ever found guilty - he's paid a tremendous price for his trip to the Middle East."
" It revealed that that six of nine voting members were from the military and intelligence agencies with direct connections to interrogations at Guantanamo and elsewhere."
When you ask what are we going to do about it...?
What can we do about it when such educated men and women fail to uphold the basic principles of humanity?
I mean, seriously, what can we do about it when the deck is so clearly stacked against the moral and humane...?
Posted by: Not My President at August 25, 2007 11:01 AM
Right, nmp.
Truth should always be punished. Torture is the appropriate response to people speaking honestly.
When are we going to put a stop to this? The sickness of their thinking disgusts me.
I mean, seriously, what can we do about it when the deck is so clearly stacked against the moral and humane...?
Posted by: Christy at August 25, 2007 11:34 AM
The American Psychological Association is literally seven blocks from my house. They are right across from Union Station, the train and metro station closest to the Senate and U.S Capitol.
I think that Monday morning a little messaging is going to take place.
What can we do?
Attend a Town Hall or Vigil Tuesday night. Go to http://www.MoveOn.org or http://www.truemajority.org or and type in your zip code. You can specify how many miles you are willing to go. If there is no event in your area, start one.
Stop the madness. Create awareness of this issue, as interrelated with the totality of the violence of the senseless war, at your event - through your words, your images.
Every community has universities, colleges, community colleges, schools, library. Create awareness and visibility there. Call, email, scream at the media. Call your local psychiatric clinic and let them know. Tell your child's school psychologist. Do they want to be part of a discipline that is is involved and not taking an ethical stand on torture?
Write messages on your outgoing bills and currency. Tell all solicitors who call you or salepeople who come to your door. Speak up to your relatives and friends, regardless of party affiliation or position on the war. Silence = death
American Psychological Association website
http://www.apa.org/governance/resolutions/notorture0807.html
American Psychological Association, 750 First Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242
Telephone: (800) 374-2721 or (202) 336-5500
Monday through Friday 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.
Contact information for all state and provincial psychological associations:
http://www.apa.org/practice/refer.html
Here is a little sign of hope. The young man who made this video used to be a conservative and supported John McCain. According to his former teacher, "he has reconsidered his views."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mCGRQs8lKwE
warning: the usual photos of torture and 9-11 may be disturbing reminders
Media contacts and addresses:
http://www.mediaresearch.org/MediaAddresses/mediaaddresses.asp
Karen
You could cross-post at DailyKos - encourage an action on Monday when APA opens and/or to coincide with Tuesday night vigils and town halls.
Bush Says Offensive in Iraq is Just Beginning
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/Bush_says_offensive_in_Iraq_just_beginning/articleshow/2309723.cms (from his Sat. AM propaganda radio address)
GI Morale not too much in agreement with White House "Happy Talk", it seems
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-morale25aug25,0,3144924.story?coll=la-home-center
More
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/25/54118/6281
On the http://www.tearitdown.org/ site, there is a great 90-second video; please watch it and share it with everyone.
Click on WHY SHOULD I CARE?
and then on: NOW YOU KNOW.
Pass it on...
Karen, if I were only seven blocks away from everything, I swear to God I may not be able to control myself.
It is a damn good thing I am 1000 miles away surrounded by freaking swamps.
Me, too, their sickness disgusts me. It totally p*sses me off I even have to consider it, or read about it, or contemplate how to stop them.
I just want to drag them into the streets and stomp them until they understand the pain they inflict on others.
I want all their friends to see it too.
Yes, I am fully aware that probably makes me a bad christian, but I never claimed to be a very good one anyway. In an age of torture and death for no reason, I doubt any of us are getting out of this with pure souls.
Every day that passes is like torture, every day the more p*ssed off I am getting.
The simple fact they are animals forces us to re-evolve with them. But they never considered some of us have been waiting for a reason to enjoy being an animal.
I could so learn to like it myself.
De-evolve even.
BTW, I always thought Ted Nugent sucked, I mean, his music alone is simply a joke.
I just wondered if he was as willing to shoot an unarmed woman as fast as he would an unarmed deer.
I would seriously like to test a theory I have.
Wow. I just found a beauty. Look at her.
I dont even like the color pink overly much but that is fantastic.
http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/PD--12055440/SP--A/IGID--1462715/Couture.htm?sOrig=CAT&sOrigID=23943&ui=BB9D9572B2994BD7A2A41EEFA3FD9979
Hillary has a You Tube site. It is remarkable the number of negative comments left on most of her videos - this is just a little preview of the rightwing ire that will rise up if Hillary is nominated by the Dems.
http://www.youtube.com/user/hillaryclintondotcom
The young man who made this video used to be a conservative and supported John McCain. According to his former teacher, "he has reconsidered his views."
Posted by: karen at August 25, 2007 12:14 PM
@@@@@
Looks like this guy, although he is anti-war and anti-Bush is going to vote for Republican (part-time Libertarian) Ron Paul, darling of the disaffected conservatives.
Progress, Ralpheh, not perfection!
Ralpheh
Ron Paul won't get past the primaries.
If he was an Independent, he could be a spoiler.
He was big at Hempfest.
People don't want war, don't want Patriot Act, don't want
represion of personal liberties - but Ron Paul advocates
abolition of the tax system.
That assumes people will out of the goodness of their hearts fund children's healthcare, schools and all the rest.
We are already living under that (Grover Norquist) system and it isn't happening.
According to the new Children's Healthcare regs Bush intends to implement, for example, children who lost their health insurance (suppose parent lost their job etc.) would WAIT A YEAR before getting onto low-income coverage. Suppose they are diagnosed with leukemia or involved in a horrible accident? Screw them.
That is the problem with Libertarians. The Liberty part I like. The no social programs / no safety net = every man for himself / dog eat dog part is cruel and inhumane.
Christy
That's a nice piece.
Re the swamps, that gives me some ideas having to do with alligators, poisonous plants etc.
Posted by: Not My President at August 25, 2007 01:51 PM
I repeat, I repeat...
These sickos are called NEOLIBERALS. The word Libertarian just gives them too much dignity.
Ally
The way I am conceiving the term, I do mean Libertarian - small government that is isolationist, does not interfere in private lives, and does not help the poor.
I am a Libertarian-leaning Liberal - I don't believe in government laws r/t personal behavior for the most part, but I do believe in some social programs paid for by a tax base.
Neoconservative - wishes to spread democracy by military means but isn't socially conservative, particularly (eg. Joe Lieberman)
Neoliberal - those folks over in Bellevue WA who vote Republican for their tax accounts
"The nation needs a strong conservative movement to balance the liberal force. What America doesn't need is people claiming to be either neo-conservative or neo-liberal. Such people are masking their true intentions, particularly with regards to U.S. involvement in the Iraq war." George McGovern
I do agree both Liberal and Conservative traditions in the US have shifted and morphed into new forms and that this is a perversion of function.
Here is a very sensible discussion on the subject of evolving terminology and doublespeak, out of Tehran.
http://justanotherblowback.blogspot.com/2006/10/dystopia-regarding-neoconservative.html
Now Bush .. he is Neolithic
Relatively on-topic:
Military Warns of Potential CIA Abuses
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082507A.shtml
Charlie Savage of The Boston Globe reports: "Top military lawyers have told senators that President Bush's new rules for CIA interrogations of suspected terrorists could allow abuses that violate the Geneva Conventions, according to Senate and military officials."
With Troop Rise, Iraqi Detainees Soar In Number
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082507C.shtml
The New York Times' Thom Shanker reports: "The number of detainees held by the American-led military forces in Iraq has swelled by 50 percent under the troop increase ordered by President Bush, with the inmate population growing to 24,500
today from 16,000 in February, according to American military officers in Iraq."
Like .. freedom .. they talk about freedom all the time .. spreading freedom
- the US has the most prisoners in the world, don't we, now?
- & in Iraq - we send more troops and we "detain" more people
Is that this "freedom" we're spreading?
I just talked to my mom and she wondered why Bush doesn't just go over and be President of Iraq. She wondered why we don't just move everything over there because it would probably be cheaper (she had just seen some show where they were taking over 1600 some big vehicles larger than Humvees, like it was really cool).
The Nuge video is up at DailyKos now - I can't watch.
Somewhere along the line I saw him in a tiger skin speedo or something and it did permanent damage.
If you're not outraged enough yet, read this article in the latest edition of Rolling Stone about Iraqi war profiteering.
The Great Iraq Swindle
How Bush Allowed an Army of For-Profit Contractors to Invade the U.S. Treasury
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/16076312/the_great_iraq_swindle
Diarist occams hatchet has written this diary about it & has pointed out what he thinks are the two most important paragraphs in the article:
Rolling Stone: an article that could end the war
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/25/163320/999
Operation Iraqi Freedom, it turns out, was never a war against Saddam Hussein's Iraq. It was an invasion of the federal budget, and no occupying force in history has ever been this efficient. George W. Bush's war in the Mesopotamian desert was an experiment of sorts, a crude first take at his vision of a fully privatized American government. In Iraq the lines between essential government services and for-profit enterprises have been blurred to the point of absurdity -- to the point where wounded soldiers have to pay retail prices for fresh underwear, where modern-day chattel are imported from the Third World at slave wages to peel the potatoes we once assigned to grunts in KP, where private companies are guaranteed huge profits no matter how badly they fuck things up.
And just maybe, reviewing this appalling history of invoicing orgies and million-dollar boondoggles, it's not so far-fetched to think that this is the way someone up there would like things run all over -- not just in Iraq but in Iowa, too, with the state police working for Corrections Corporation of America, and DHL with the contract to deliver every Christmas card. And why not? What the Bush administration has created in Iraq is a sort of paradise of perverted capitalism, where revenues are forcibly extracted from the customer by the state, and obscene profits are handed out not by the market but by an unaccountable government bureaucracy. This is the triumphant culmination of two centuries of flawed white-people thinking, a preposterous mix of authoritarian socialism and laissez-faire profiteering, with all the worst aspects of both ideologies rolled up into one pointless, supremely idiotic military adventure -- American men and women dying by the thousands, so that Karl Marx and Adam Smith can blow each other in a Middle Eastern glory hole.
Posted by: madame defarge at August 25, 2007 05:25 PM
This IS a big perversion.
What we're getting is, essentially, capitalism without market force incentives = no better than socialism.
And we keep working ever harder (and hard work is glamorized) but the rewards keep shrinking. Same with military service. The communist nations have had the same problem - glorify labor and military, but reward it very little.
NMP,
Of course, there is a difference between the libertarianism we believe in (social laissez-faire) and the one that the self-proclaimed Libertarians believe in. The latter is definitely neoliberal.
Good McGovern quote regarding neocons and neolibs.
Ally
Agreed.
That's what I mean about the Libertarians span all the way from the left to the right. Authoritarian to Libertarian is the other dimension beside left to right. They intersect at any point.
Here is a graphic that shows what I mean. Most of our candidates come out at almost the exact same point.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
I took the test at FaceBook and came out closest to Kucinich for political views as usual, but I will have to vote for someone more moderate, as usual, and hopefully not end up with some one WAY to the right again ..
Karen, this leaves me despairing. However, I was aware of this from 2 sources - a psychologist at Guantanamo (not now) and a writer who had trawled through a hundred thousand pages of declassified material.
The psychologist said that he was a silent presence to ensure the interrogation techniques did not go *too far*. He said that it is well known that current and past interrogation techniques that have been the norm over the past 6 years, produce *unsafe* intelligence.
Some of the Guests of Guantanamo are there simply to give the American Government, lots of *terrorists* now "off the streets". The fact that most of them never were terrorists is irrelevant. The Government has countless hundreds of the *worst of the worst* incarcerated, without end. That's how the Government is protecting you.
The psychologist being interviewed believed that his presence did help to tone down some of the interrogations. There are the sadistic in every profession and no doubt there were psychologists present who actually enjoyed seeing the discomfort of the subject.
Also their presence gives the president grounds to say - we have psychologists present at all interrogations. They won't allow it to go too far. The United States does NOT torture.
The reasons that psychologists voted to stay there may also be that they find it interesting and are actually writing up case studies and the like. However, I don't think they are permitted to talk to the "terrorist".
" There are the sadistic in every profession and no doubt there were psychologists present who actually enjoyed seeing the discomfort of the subject."
I am not sure any doctor would do it out of enjoyment Woz.
These modern day mind butchers remind me of the Nazi doctor who was experimenting on people.
I think these 'doctors', sadistic as they are, finally have a way to test their own 'theories' without being publicly exposed as a butcher.
Exactly Christy. All kinds of hideous practices were "for science".
The worst thing is...torture only has value as a scientific exercise.
There were many experiments the Nazis did actually gain serious scientific advancement in, but, my God, look what they had to do to get such data.
Isn't it strange that most of the greatest technology we have, sprang directly from killing and torturing people.
It never ceases to amaze me at how inventive we humans are at killing one another.
Posted by: Christy at August 25, 2007 10:08 PM
Ah, I get it now... so they're pro-life so they can have more subjects for their "research".
JC, Clone Home
"...so they can have more subjects for their "research".
Ummm, yeah. Basically.
Democracy, Wars, society, torture, monarchies and starvation... Hasn't it all been one big experiment?
Sadly...it is a failed one.
The last 2000 years or so will obliterate any evolutionary gain we ever made. And we will take out most of every other species on earth with us.
Our de-evolution is already much more advanced than we realize. To be honest, we had not made it much further past the chimpanzee in the first place.
Ever hear of the Bonobo..? It is a small version of a chimp, but it is incredibly different. A major river seperates the two species, so it is understandable how they evolved differently.
But again, the differences are astounding.
The Bonobo is perhaps the only primate that never murder each other. It has simply never once been observed happening. No cannabilisim, no retaliations, no homicide. No assault. And they do not rape each other either.
The males take full responsibility for all of the babies.
They have group orgies, often. They share their bodies to ease stress or tension in the ranks. Because they are bored. Whatever. Moments when a chimp would fly into a rage, these just mate instead.
Scientists speculate they evolved that way because their ranks were decimated once and as a result the males do not know which offspring is their own, so they take care of all of them as their own.
They no longer had anything to fight about.
The differences on the surface between chimps and bonobos, appears to be minimal to the eye. But the difference in the animal they evolved into is totally alien to one another.
Sometimes I look at those differences almost desperately. Can you imagine if that river had never seperated them...?
It only took a river for them.
I am desperate to know what it will take for us to evolve into different animals than we are. Into better animals.
It's really strange about the Republican political strategists that were involved in the murder/suicide in Florida. Check around at the Orlando Sentinel. Wonkette thinks it's a closet gay love triangle. It's especially strange after knowing the story of Clint Curtis, whistleblower/computer programmer who ran against Feeney. Something is really fishy. I had to ask Elizabeth, our voting fraud expert. There is a murder photo I saw when Clint spoke and it's haunting me. It happened in a Georgia hotel. Something is not right with these people. There is another Orlando Sentinel story about how Wang, owner of a company that got NASA contracts, just donated more money to Feeney for his legal fund. All of this has to do, I suspect, with the 2000 election and how Gore was "defeated" - I feel queasy.
Here is the original story of Curtis/Feeney/Yang.
http://www.bradblog.com/?page_id=3980
I don't think I will say another word about it but I can't eat.
"Wonkette thinks it's a closet gay love triangle. "
I am glad I am not the only one with those thoughts. I kept hearing them say 'roommate and former roomate' and I suddenly realized, isn't that the code word for cohabitating gay couples?
And that was a whistleblower found dead in that hotel room NMP. I think, if memory serves he was an investigator with the State Highway Dept. or something like that.
He told Curtis he discovered 'It goes all the way to the top'. Then he come up suicided in that motel room.
He was an Inspector General...Is that a state or fed position?
From NMPs link
"The original Inspector General assigned to the case, Raymond Lemme, had contacted Curtis in mid-June of 2003, after both Curtis and the other whistleblower on the case had been fired without cause – both on the same day. (Eventually, both of them would win their whistleblower cases against FDOT on the matter.) Curtis says in his sworn affidavit that Lemme had advised him in mid-June that he would be very happy about his upcoming report and he should keep his ears open for it because, he told Curtis, "this goes all the way to the top."
Two weeks later, Lemme was found dead in a Valdosta, Georgia motel room."
Yes the dead guy was Inspector General for Florida.
The "gay love triangle" could be more - those guys used to work for Feeney. Maybe someone was going to whistle blow again.
Clint Curtis was a lifelong Republican at one time.
Whistleblowers often end up dead.
These guys are Mafia - I think they may have cost us 2 elections.
Christy
I think he was Florida state Inspector General.
Ask Jeb, I guess.
Why don't these guys just go out dancing like normal people?
Why do they work in politics in the first place?
Sick.
They are not just mafia, they are a specific cartel from the south.
And they have basically installed the last 3 presidents. Fortunately one of them was at least good at actually being president.
Christy
I totally believe you.
The jockeying around about when Florida's primary is and the business about California's electoral votes makes me so nervous I can't get remotely interested in the candidates. What is the point.
"What is the point."
Amen Girlfriend.
I'm with Rossi and Karen too. I am not sure we have anything now, the next year and a half will only worsen it if some solutions don't start popping off real quick.
How can the candidates even waste their time if the fix is already in?
I have a friend here who used to work in advertising and we have a pact that we are not going to watch a single political ad for 2008.
& we are not going to contribute.
The ads are mighty expensive - like a million bucks for 30 seconds. How many schools could that build in Africa?
We are not going to participate.
I am going to the peace vigil Tuesday night. I promised to take photos for MoveOn locally.
Where do we start?
I have never given up and don't want to now, but let me tell you, it's an uphill climb against the corruption and greed.
Human life means so much less than money to these people.
When they pretend to be Christians it makes me puke.
Ted Nugent and Mann Coulter ought to have a closet case relationship next.
Mike Gravel was right.
They will all say anything to get elected.
My man took me and my son out tonight, we went to dinner in Bossier.
We saw a couple standing on the corner of an incredibly busy highway with a big cardboard sign that said 'We need gas to feed our kids, PLEASE HELP!'
My son seemed shocked. Really stunned. I started talking about the days of bush the elder, how there were people that had 'Will work for food' signs all over the place. I didn't know what to say to him, except to add some context to it.
Someone was pulling up to them as we watched. We went to dinner and I looked at my food and thought of what Sparrow said the other day when I was Barbequing. She said 'You eat better than I do!'.
Yeah, I eat very good, cause my man works for an oil company. I couldn't finish my dinner. I still feel queasy.
And I can not get rid of this stupid headache.
All Along the Watchtower
Bob Dylan
"There must be some way out of here,"
Said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion,
I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine,
Plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line
Know what any of it is worth."
"No reason to get excited,"
The thief, he kindly spoke,
"There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that,
And this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now,
The hour is getting late."
All along the watchtower,
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went,
Barefoot servants, too.
Outside in the growing distance
A wild cat did growl,
Two riders were approaching,
The wind began to howl.
They are not just mafia, they are a specific cartel from the south.
Posted by: Christy at August 25, 2007 11:20 PM
With plenty of help from shady overseas operations...
Posted by: Not My President at August 25, 2007 11:43 PM
I'm taking the same position. I've refused to donate to anyone - not even Edwards or Obama.
As for the Mann, would love to see that sodomite have an actual relationship, which should resolve the anatomy question once and for all.
Posted by: Christy at August 25, 2007 11:51 PM
Sounds very sick, my heart is with you.
Christy, are you in the Shreveport area? Because I know Bossier City - my father has a friend living there.
Ally
Maybe I would donate later in the game, even work for someone.
Not now though, and have to know much more. So disillusioned even compared to last time, and it took alot of gumption to get going again after the 2000 fiasco because the election was so obviously contentious and illegitimate. It has destabilized the whole country, even had we not gone to war.
By the way, if you all are tired of the seriousness and want a light moment, click on my name and watch Miss South Carolina answer a question. Shouldn't make fun of the poor dear but can't help it.
By the way, what is the difference between American and British bad role models? Hair color & number of tattoos. (Britney, Paris & Nicole vs Amy, Lily & Posh)
Come on down Ally.
Bossier and Shreveport are only seperated...by a river!
HAHA!
Seriously, Bossier and Shreveport are on opposite banks of the Red. And Bossier definately has the better Riverwalk. Beautiful place, they built an entire new town down there. No cars allowed. It is what a vintage street in Italy would look like if all the buildings were brand new.
And the casinos are all on riverboats. Lots of great murals.
I don't go often, but it is not too far.
The riverboats were a loophole really for the local tribe we call the baptists.
You can not sin 'on earth', you see. But if you just put it on a boat in the water then technically you are not 'on earth'.
It really works out quite nicely for everyone that way.
NMP - that YouTube is crazy! Even if I didn't have to listen to it through the stops and starts - too much traffic I'd say. I honestly couldn't work out where the questions answer was in all of that. A bit sad that she's blonde! Hilarious.
Another perspective of the terrorist threat.
Radicals in retreat
August 26, 2007
Australia's "soft" war on Jemaah Islamiah has been the unsung success story of the world's fight against terror. Mark Forbes reports.
http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/archives/2007/08/torture_therapy.html
Good points made here:
http://www.kerryvision.net/2007/08/shut_up_and_sing.html
[woz--check the link you posted, above!]
Texas is the only state that applies the "law of parties" to capital cases, allowing accomplices who "should have anticipated" a murder to receive the death penalty. Kenneth Foster is scheduled to die Thursday under this provision - editorial from today's Dallas News below. You can urge the governor to stop the execution.
Email Governor Rick Perry through his web site: www.governor.state.tx.us/contact
or call his opinion hotline: 1-800-252-9600
Not a Killer: Kenneth Foster does not deserve execution
09:33 AM CDT on Sunday, August 26, 2007
Kenneth Foster was a robber. He was a drug user. He was a teenager making very bad decisions.
He is not an innocent man.
But Mr. Foster is not a killer.
Still, the State of Texas plans to put him to death Thursday.
Ours is the only state in the country to apply the "law of parties" to capital cases, allowing accomplices to pay the ultimate penalty for a murder committed by another. Mr. Foster was driving his grandfather's rental car when one of his partners in crime killed Michael LaHood.
That night in 1996, Mr. Foster and three of his buddies appeared to be looking for trouble. They robbed a few folks, chugged some beers and smoked marijuana. But, as all four have testified, murder was never part of the plan. Mr. Foster and two others sat in the car nearly 90 feet away when the fatal shot was fired.
They had followed an attractive woman into an unfamiliar neighborhood, where they encountered her boyfriend, Mr. LaHood. The other passengers have testified that they had no designs on robbing - let alone shooting - him. And the admitted triggerman said that his friends did not know what he was doing when he approached the victim.
But using the law of parties, prosecutors argued that Mr. Foster, who was 19 at the time, either intended to kill or "should have anticipated" a murder. For this lack of foresight, he has been sentenced to death.
The death penalty, proponents argue, is the appropriate punishment for the worst of the worst criminals. They express confidence that death row inmates are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
But the case against Mr. Foster falls far short on both counts.
A 19-year-old robber/getaway driver cannot be classified as one of Texas' most dangerous, murderous criminals. On this point, even prosecutors agree: Mr. Foster did not kill anyone.
By applying the law of parties to this capital case, prosecutors are asking jurors to speculate on whether he should have anticipated the murder. Conjecture isn't nearly good enough when a defendant's life is on the line.
And relying on a mind-reading jury leaves plenty of room for reasonable doubt.
Several other states have imposed or are considering a moratorium on executions, relying instead on life without parole as a tough alternative. Even though Texas juries now have the option of life without parole, our state continues to broadly impose capital punishment.
The unfair application of the death penalty and the possibility that an innocent man could be executed compelled this newspaper to voice opposition to capital punishment. This case only reinforces our belief that state-sanctioned death is often arbitrary.
While Mr. Foster's execution date approaches, the two passengers from his car sit in prison with life sentences. His only hope for a reprieve lies with the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles and the governor.
This case raises serious questions about whether state leaders are comfortable with this degree of ambiguity in death cases. We aren't.
Mr. Foster is a criminal. But he should not be put to death for a murder committed by someone else.
Hawkeye
Figures - remember who was governor of that state and mocked a sentenced woman.
--new news thread-
Posted by: Christy at August 25, 2007 11:51 PM
Christy,
I'm sorry for saying, "You eat better than I do." Especially because in context you eat better than I do because when I get trapped in busy weeks we just end up with a lot of pizza and fast food. (Or we end up with fast cooking food, which generally tastes like salt. yuck). I didn't mean we couldn't afford to eat at all! (Though I am very very frugal and budget conscious!)
I was just playin' about the super yummy food you were making those nights.
So I'm so sorry about my words causing you to think like that. Although I suspect that it's just those words that I had really meant to say playfully juxtaposed with the guy you saw. Then that gives my words a different meaning.
And can I tell you there was a few times when we saw homeless guys begging for food or work. We passed to him our whole pizza we just bought. And another time, all we had were candy bars, so we gave that to them.
Then just last week, I was waiting for my daughters when a black man came up from behind with his hands in the air and his license in one hand and promises "that he wasn't going to hurt me or my duaghters but he needed some help." He was very 'hysterical' because they had towed his car and he was going on about what had happened and that being a black man he knew it didn't look good to ask for money, but he promised he wasn't drunk or looking for drugs, etc. But he lived in Romulus and worked out towards Milan and when he had car trouble he pulled into an abandoned parking lot to fix the car. Then walked to the store with the part. That's when the car was towed. At anyrate, he needed 50 dollars to get the car back but he was 12 dollars short. (he was upset and rambling about the indignity of this.)
I went and got him the 12 dollars. I still wonder if I was scammed, but it was something about how he was recognizing what a white woman in a parking lot might be feeling to have a (black) man come running up from behind... and also I felt like if his story was true, then I do believe that if I pulled over into an abandoned parking lot with car trouble, I don't believe the police would have towed my car because I'm a white women!)
So I got him the money. When he promised to have his mom send a check for the 12, I told him to donate time or money to a worthwhile cause instead. (Besides, black or white, I'm not giving a stranger my address to send a check to!)I still wonder if I was suckered. But sometimes, you just have to decide that helping someone is better than the alternative. And if his story was true, then it really exemplified life for black people in our nation.
Sparrow
Sometimes you just have to follow your instincts and hope for the best!
Christy,
Might I add... I'm always cognisant and grateful for the roof over my head and the food on my table. My husband has a good job but he's self employed. So I'm very conscious to save money for tomorrow too.
I look at the homeless and jobless, and I know we could easily become one of them. If the job market crashes, if the medical stuff pile up, and so on. All of us are one terrible illness away from bankruptcy. (And to be fair to me for being frugal, we did have a terrible illness in our family a while ago, and my husband had lost his job for a bit. It took time to build the business back up. So if I'm frugal and tease ya' about 'eating better than me' please understand that I am not destitute.)
Posted by: Not My President at August 26, 2007 12:37 PM
Yeh. I guess. But it's sort of silly to still wonder if I got suckered. I actually relayed the story somewhat shamefully, so I think at least in my subconscious, I do feel I may have a giant "Sucker" tattooed on my forehead.