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Saturday Class: Learning is the Thing
The best thing for being sad,” replied Merlyn, beginning to puff and blow, “is to learn something. That is the only thing that never fails. You may grow old and trembling in your anatomies, you may lie awake at night listening to the disorder of your veins, you may miss your only love, you may see the world about you devastated by evil lunatics, or know your honour trampled in the sewers of baser minds. There is only one thing for it then — to learn. Learn why the world wags and what wags it. That is the only thing which the mind can never exhaust, never alienate, never be tortured by, never fear or distrust, and never dream of regretting."” ~Theodore H. White, The Once and Future King
Long before Harry Potter, there was the above-quoted book, which I read out loud to my children. The myth of Arthur, whose true nature is hidden and revealed only through the guidance of his wise teacher, Merlyn, would, I hoped, help their imaginations to take flight, and to look around for those wise guides in the world, magical or not.
I share it with my students as well. Today I share it with you, especially sparrow.
I, too, am sad today. Another favorite of my children, Madeleine L'Engle, has died.
Reading A Wrinkle in Time, A Wind in the Door, and Many Waters to my son was a chance for some mind-opening and far-flung discussions about the nature of reality, physics, religion, and death. We read those books in the first year we lived in this house, with Richard and his daughters, and they became guides to how to ride change.
The guides in the first book are Mrs. Whatsit, Mrs. Who, and Mrs Which. Mrs Whatsit is a ditherer, an old lady dressed in eccentric clothes, and she reminded me of my grandmother (the Miami Beach one, not the Brooklyn one!), who was both dither-y and insightful and carried the family wisdom in one of her many straw bags, along with chocolate. Mrs. Whatsit eventually becomes a beautiful centaur, with wings, who carries the child-heroes of the story across the tesseract (the wrinkle in time).
So many lessons: about how true nature is revealed through actions, not dress; how wisdom is often accompanied by comedy (a lesson my son has learned deeply); and how our imaginations can conceive of impossible but beautiful ideas, like re-arrangements of time and space, or goodness in man.
The most powerful element, Meg Murry discovers, the element that overcomes fascism, mindlessness, and arrogance, is love.
And that brings me back to the topic I started out with this morning, which is learning.
Last night I went to dinner with our visiting artist, Rhodessa Jones (with whom our dear friend Fe often works). We went with members of the Women's Studies Dept. and some from the Clarice Smith Center, the performing arts venue where I also work. The conversation eventually switched to the post-performance talk-back. One of those at the table expressed some frustration with the format, feeling occasionally frustrated with the QUALITY of those discussions. As we talked about experiences, good and bad, we had had in either leading or being part of a variety of post-performance discussions (there were war-stories), I began to see the relationship between those types of conversations and blogs.
One always hopes that in a thread or in a talk-back (as they are often called), one will receive feedback on what one has presented, that solid questions will be asked that lead to more unpacking of the topic, that discussions might ensue between audience members, and that the excitement of empowered exchange will lead to coffee dates to continue the conversations, and even eventually, to viral communication of information.
More often, however, only a few speak up, and one or two dominate with their own opinions, and little actual information is exchanged. (No, I am NOT addressing that point to anyone on this blog). The group was both lamenting this fact (with obvious memories of the guy who stands up to ostensibly ask a question and who goes on and on about his opinion without ever getting to a query, while the artist just sits there, looking baffled) AND celebrating the nature of democracy, which is, as we know all too well, messy.
BUT, it is through such dialogues and sharing that misunderstandings are corrected, new ideas are hatched, inspiration is shared and solutions are found.
This morning, DiAnne sent us a link to a video which is as brilliant as it is over-the-top and a little hyperbolic, but worth discussing:
The video purports to explain that we only change when we are shocked into it. We all certainly understand the manipulations we have all been subject to, at the end of the video, the solution is clear. And Merlyn and Meg Murry would agree:
Even though darkness often reigns, learning is the thing. Love conquers all. Both are more powerful and empowering than hatred and both will get us through this black period.
WELL, this is a lot for an early Saturday morning, but I already feel better. Grab a cup of coffee and let's talk about your own favorite books of imagination and love. Shock is trumped by knowledge, as Naomi Klein points out. And Merlyn says so too.
Let's talk about it.
Summer of the Monkeys
By Wilson Rawls
One of the best books ever written.
Ok maybe Where the Red Fern Grows is better. No Monkey is better, no Ferns, no Monkeys, no Ferns.
Ok, nevermind.
Read them both to my son and you're right, it's hard to choose! Stories of triumph and learning are what gets us through.
Madeleine L'Engle's own story is one of personal triumph. Her manuscript for "A Wrinkle In Time" was rejected many, many times before finally being accepted for publication.
The following year it was awarded the Newbury (sp?) Prize for excellence in Chidren's Literature. Since then, it has become one of the most successful book in American Children's Literature.
Persistence. Perseverance.
Christy,
What I remember about those books is the descriptive way he writes about that part of the world--I could smell the places. What a great way to travel!
Funny, I never saw either of them as stories of 'triumph'.
To me, they are both stories of ultimate sacrifice in the end. Actual triumph seems elusive in both books. In both, they win like everyone else, in small ways, without meaning to win anything.
But I did learn never to drink moonshine with a gaggle of runaway primates.
Me, too Karen. That is why I say his is perhaps the best books ever written. You can smell it, and taste it, and almost touch the world he describes. He was probably one of the greatest writers ever to hold a pen.
Almost no one is capable of doing what he did. Not even a corporate polishing could produce such a literary masterpiece. Much less do it twice.
Like everyone, I did like A wrinkle in Time, but I have never been a fan of fantasy at any age.
I have read Where the Red Fern Grows though perhaps 100 times. I cried every single time.
Sparrow, from last thread.
I have no idea about what they actually did find in his autopsy. What I do know is that almost everyone that falls down stairs gets up and walks/hobbles away. And those that do die in falls, almost never suffer severe head trauma.
Usually when people fall down steps and die, it is because they broke their back or a hip and were not found in time before dying from exposure or internal bleeding.
It is a human instinct to protect your head and neck as soon as you feel gravity yanked out from under you. We almost never fall without that instinctive reaction taking effect, and it is mostly effective if it kicks in on time.
Head and neck trauma from a simple fall..sure. that is certainly possible, it is just not that...usual. Maybe I just developed a morbid interest in death somewhere along the way, but his injuries have made me curious.
Life is both persistant and fragile.
When I met my husband, the first thing we discovered is that we were both "Wrinkle in Time" fans. We were college freshmen & one of the first things we did was order a copy of that book & reread it. Our friend Chris was very sick, delirious and feverish when he was about 12 & his older sister read it to him. He majored in astrophysics, electrical engineering & computer programming & his inspiration has always been that book. I read it to my son, of course.
Another amazing book (with film) is "Something Wicked This Way Comes," by Ray Bradbury & also the film 'The Seven Faces of Dr. Lao." Full of messages.
My husband got up & I told him about Madeline L'Engle. I put it on my website with the cover that we had ordered. I noticed in the Reuters story that it was rejected by 26 publishers before finally being published. It also starts out, "It was a dark and stormy night."
Look what just popped up on ThinkProgress. The WH lies are getting desperate.
EXCLUSIVE: Former Sen. Intel Chair Reports White House Misled About Wiretap Briefings
Snip
In a recent interview with ThinkProgress, Sen. Graham told us that, after the controversy erupted in late 2005, the White House provided him with dates when they alleged Graham had been briefed. Graham said he consulted his famous spiral bound notebooks and determined he had not been briefed on these dates:
"When I got those dates, I went back to my notebooks and checked and found that on most of the dates there were no meetings held. In fact, in several of them, I wasn’t in Washington when the meetings were supposed to have taken place. So I stand by what I said."
http://thinkprogress.org/
Karen and Christy,
I am torn how to describe what I think. Please bear with me.
I think there are different situations that will cause learning to increase or decrease or situations that cause reactionary change. You say love allows learning. The makers of the video claim that shock leads to corporate and government piracy.
Both are true; they are not exclusive or prohibited from both being true.
But when I think about the two, I have to say that the underlying strength to making it through difficult times and learning is having a strong sense of safety.
When you feel safe, you can love. You can nurture. You can laugh. You can learn. When you feel safe, your brain functions. When you feel safe you can sleep well at night. So from a standpoint of safety, you truely can conquer the world.
However, when you feel insecure or petrified, learning, love, laughter all come to a stop and you withdraw into yourself and you allow someone else to take over. You become depressed. You allow yourself to be taken care of and it's not until you're shocked into seriously horrible situations that you wake up and realize you have to toughen up, unite with others, and get back to fighting for all that you lost.
In both situations, your heart and your mind are in different 'mindsets'. (Can a heart have a mindset?) Some people can more easily work from their heart--even in a state of fear instead of hope--and steadily battle for what they believe in. Their intellect isn't rattled. Their adrenalyn is constantly surging. And they are in a hyper-active mode; be they resisting or leading, they are like the Duracell bunny and they just don't stop.
But in terms of human behavior what happens varies with the person's experiences and with their own chemistry. Let me explain...
Our brains our wired, litterally. We're wired on neurons and little electrical systems (neurons and axons) that run through it. We're also wired on chemicals in there too. And as we learn, live, laugh and all that, these chemical and electrical symbols get stored in our brain somewhere for the next time. (That's what the learning is about.) All of our five senses contribute to the chemical reactions going on in our brain. And all those chemicals are activating little trains of neurons to react and send messages down the line. From there, our brain tells us how to react: fear, laugh, cry, pain, etc...
But some of the chemical and neural transmitters work more efficiently than others. Touch a hot stove and you'll see the immediate reaction. You don't think about it; you just immediately yank your finger away from the heat source!
Fear is another one of those immediate reactions and I think this is what the video is talking about. The bio-neural reactions of fear are quicker than the bio-neural reactions of intellegent response. Our whole brain is activated in an instant because survival is a baser instinct. They call it our "flight or fight" response. But notice it's a response. It's not a 10 day research project that culminates in a thought out plan. It's a response that comes out of our baser instinct--the lowest part of the brain--the brain stem. The part of the brain that doesn't take the time to logically think before acting.
Where does love fit into that? Where does safety fit into that?
Shock is an immediate recoiling as the video shows both literally and figuratively speaking. And until you feel safe again, you rely purely on instinct.
Look, even fighting and anger is a lower level response. And that's exactly what happens to society after natural or manmade disasters, and that's what happens with PTSD.
So where does the love, laughter, and learning come in? In my opinion, those are the secondary responses--the higher level responses--after the trauma has worn off. It's the time when more of the brain is involved. The brain can actually grow and change shape when it's bathed in all those unique chemicals. And when the brain is in a state of comfort all the other chemicals can more easily get picked up by the dendrites and sent along their merry way to all the other parts of the brain.
That's when the electrical systems can flow both ways--both learning and adapting can occur. When you're feeling safe and loved amazing amounts of learning and adapting can occur. But from that standpoint of comfort, you can also forget the distress of previous experiences.
It's why after 9-11 our country did experience a PTSD causing event. It's why Bush and the Republicans want to try to keep it in the collective memory. The problem is that the passage of time really does heal old wounds somewhat.
So I agree with the video on this part. The best time to push through major changes is when instinct is in charge, not learning in charge.
The Iraq War is a result of our "King's" baser instincts and those of his party. And as a result of 9-11, our collective society was led to follow the same baser instinct. It's why people accepted torture, spying, rendition, (etc) because we allowed our lower brain stem's instinct for survival to direct our path, but if we would have investigated these behaviors in history, the logical side of our brain would have taken control. (The elections in 02 and 04 were still about the lower level brain.)
Also, Katrina is an example of how a PTSD causing event forced people to first deal with their immediate instinct (and an immediate education), but it also gave them a long term perspective on
a whole philosophy of government. So in effect, the leaders they allowed to "keep them safe" were reveiled to be incompetent instead.
But I also can agree with Theodore White too. But from a political-leadership perspective, I would much prefer that our leaders rely upon their higher brain skills during times of national distress than on their baser brain stem reactionary responses. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a response as Rove claimed we liberals thought. It simply means that there should be a logical investigation and plan in place already for emergencies or that there should be a logical well thought out plan created in response.
(Done blathering now... aren't you glad?)
sparrow,
Yes I agree with what you say. And I will extend it to suggest that getting through shock and fear is a healthier process when love and learning are involved.
Adrenaline is a hormone that allows us to jump back from a hot stove, or get out of the way of a tsunami by climbing a tree, or dive under a moving car to rescue a child.
But the holding and rocking and calm singing, the treatment, and the learning we can give each other are what promote the healing, post-traumatically.
In the book, A Wrinkle in Time, Meg not only finds a way to overcome the evil through love; she manages to speak directly to the parts of her little brother that have been persisting in immature and arrogant behaviors; she calls on them to "deepen" and anchor themselves into his being so he can come to consciousness about his situation. Charles Wallace is in a state of post-torture helplessness and, in the end, he needs what we all need: connection, consciousness, and some arms to hold us and rock us into ourselves again.
Naomi Klein says much the same in the video--and I totally love the graphic of the little girl going from victim to victim, whispering in their ears and touching them, spreading truth.
We must all be that little girl.
Uh Oh... realized I need to add...
I believe the fact that Lieberman has refused to allow a serious investigation into the failings of the government's actions after Katrina is due to the desire to not remind people of the PTSD causing event. That's because in this case the rage and helpless feeling actually reinforces the idea that people should be fighting the government and the whole 'insider', corporatist people in government.
Because it has an IMMEDIATE KNOWN response, they need to AVOID the subject and NOT let anything on that subject get out to us. Lieberman is so kindly obliging them in their efforts to continue the cover-up.
But it's also why the neocon machine relies on the baser instinct of hate, racism, and rage. All you have to do is turn of Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, and Ann Coulter and listen to the hate they spew.
Hate is a lower brain function.
Sparrow & Karen
Great discussion to read..
Zogby has been doing some very interesting polling about 9/11 having to do with reactions, remembrances, opinions.
Posted by: karen at September 8, 2007 11:02 AM
Karen,
I'm reminded of Frodo in the Lord of the Rings. I'm sure you remember that in the beginning Frodo is innocent, naive, trusting. Through the ordeal of carrying the ring, he experiences horrifying things and traumatic PTSD causing events. In the end, he has been changed forever.
These events have altered his brain and altered his personality. He isn't 'all good' anymore. The evilness has infiltrated his spirit even if he doesn't act on it, it's there.
My point... isn't that what can be said of all of us individually as well as our country and our world?
Yes, we can hold, love, and comfort each other, but within each of us, we are altered. I don't think I can say we're altered for the better. Take me for instance, I feel more rage towards a group of people than I have ever felt before. What makes me better than the Ann Coulter's out there, when I feel such rage towards a whole party that is 'killing us' with their corporate 'free-enterprise' backstabbing, anti-healthcare.... oops, See? Rage. Just thinking about it causes rage and it makes me function off my baser instincts.
But when the people in power do nothing to ACT on the corporations who murder by spreadsheet, then THEY are the ones who must be educated and/or suffer the same fate as 'the common folk' because we out here all have PTSD, while they're sitting in their bubble.
So are we suppose to go hug our Congressman today and while we're at it read them the war stats from Iraq, from BCBS, from bankrupcty? Hug them and educate them too? Cuz if I have to hug them, they're going to get a really big BEAR hug (um... around their, n...)
Laughing out loud. No, I mean for us to hug each other, because we are the victims. But victims can become heroes too.
Not by hugging the enemy, but by sharing information, speaking truth to power, and acting in concert to STOP THEM.
Not by hugging the enemy, but by sharing information, speaking truth to power, and acting in concert to STOP THEM.
Posted by: karen at September 8, 2007 11:49 AM
But if we encourage our 'enemies' to be heroes instead of Heretics wouldn't that be better in the long run?
They could be one hug away from ditching the Heretics and becoming a Hero if we could become brave enough to embrace them.
Actually, seriously... I think Edwards may be trying to be a hero. I think because he and Elizabeth are enduring a life-altering experience, it may be bringing out the hero in him. After all, what does he have to lose? He's already coming to terms that he may be losing his wife sooner than expected.
I'm not to the point of supporting any candidate mind you, but I do believe that Edwards is running from the standpoint of having nothing to lose.
Maybe for us, that's a good thing.
I agree that the Edwardses are extraordinary right now, and I am sure it is the illness, as well as the loss of their son, that allows them to embrace risk to the extent that they do.
On the heretics-to-heroes fantasy, I noted that Bush is nominating Ted Olson for Atty. General. Ted was Solicitor-General in Bush's first administration and the fact that his wife was on the plane that went onto the Pentagon has always been the fact that keeps me away from the conspiracy theories about 9-11. I would bet money that her presence on that plane, and that she was on a cell phone with Ted the whole time, was why the jets did not scramble in time to shoot the plane down first, or were ordered to stand back.
At any rate, Olson is a pretty good lawyer, and even though he has been a sorry apologist for Bush's behaviors, there is a part of me that would like to believe that he knows what he knows and that he cares about the Constitution.
Olson was also connected to Bush Papa, and there may even have been some interventions involved in this proposal.
Enquiring minds will be paying attention...
Sparrow
I literally do give my Congressman a huge hug whenever I see him! & then he educates ME. I ask him what to read, and whether he thinks we're going to war with Iran, and follow his blog, his legal situation with the rightwing. He's an exception, though (McDermott). He tells what he finds out in Washington and in the middle east and we trust him.
For a contrast, there is Congressman Baird, from the Vancouver WA area, who came back from Iraq and is trumpeting the success of "the surge," much to the consternation of his constituents. It's more conservative in his district, but he may be jeopardizing his chances for re-election, if there is little difference between him and the Republican. He may be well-intentioned, and he may believe what he saw and heard but it is also what he was presented. There is a difference when you do your own footwork many many times (like McDermott) and when you go as part of a delegation (like Baird). It's the difference between being a free and an embedded reporter.
I've been reading alot of rightwing stuff and there are people out there who are dying to go to war with Iran, to reduce it to a third world country. They frame it as a war against Islamic extremism.
Even if it was, you cannot fight one type of extremism with another form of extremism, and certainly not using conventional weapons and warfare.
Anne Coulter talks of converting Muslims to Christianity and Bin Laden talks of converting Christians to Islam. Both of them have had their 15 minutes of fame. What a pair.
Olson was also connected to Bush Papa, and there may even have been some interventions involved in this proposal.
Enquiring minds will be paying attention...
Posted by: karen at September 8, 2007 12:34 PM
You mean pragmatists vs neocons? Is it possible to stop war with Iran? It would be great to know what is going on behind the scenes and you're in a better position than most.
Keep your eyes and ears open!
The extreme devaluation of our currency scares me far more than terrorism, but it's all related. One of terror's goals was to hurt our economy and deplete our military with useless fighting, draw us into the fray.
nmp,
It is all related! No argument there.
Karen,
just because Olsen's wife was on the plane doesn't eliminate any conspiracy theory. Perhaps Olsen himself wasn't in on the planning. Perhaps, it's one of those mistakes that happen like Murphy's Laws and they were left dealing with the consequences of happenstance that day.
Her ticket home may have been purchased last minute and maybe she was on board before they could stop her.
However, just the fact that SHE was on it and talking to her husband the whole time and yet they didn't 'shoot it down' because of her, just reinforces the idea that we're all fungible out here while they are the royal ones.
I didn't say that her presence belies any foreknowledge, but that her presence, planned or otherwise, may be why they did NOT go after the plane. It also reinforces the idea that there WAS a plane and that it DID go into the Pentagon.
As for our fungilbility, no defenses here on that. Just watch "Dr. Strangelove" and our own understanding of what will happen to us in the event of an attack becomes quite clear...
Speaking of conspiracies...
Why are two of the 'moderate Republicans' who are now against the Iraq occupation resigning instead of running again? I know it could help Democrats but does that mean that they have been kicked out of the Republican party for not being loyal?
I wonder about the ability of those who are truly patriotic and believe they defend the Constitution to stomach what is happening. Maybe they just can't take it anymore.
When I see these guys in hearings, so many of them are just looking down, and they seem sad, and old, and truly frustrated.
Only the asshats are full of vigor and self-importance. Those who really get it are pissed off and frustrated.
Sparrow, I agree with all the lovehuglearn stuff about the brain, but it is not exactly true that your brain shuts down when you are afraid.
Certainly rational parts of the brain are no longer relevent at that emotional level, but being in that state actually increses your ability to learn and adapt. Survival depends on it. Your senses become hieghtened and you process more, faster.
For all of us, the most profound and life altering lessons always come in those moments of horror, and no matter how far we get past it, the memories are so clear and painful.
It is my belief that what is learned in fear last longer than what love teaches you. I do believe love is the greatest and most bold of all our emotions, but there is no love that can not be overcome, traumatized by pain, fear, hurt, doubt.
If you apply the right kind of hurt at the right points, you can literally turn a mother against her child. This is the kind of pinpointing our government has been doing.
Make us afraid of this, and that, and them...things we are normally predisposed to fearing anyway, and even love for our own brothers or mothers will not matter. We will spy on them, just to keep the scary things away. We will hand over our own sisters to the scary people, just so they will not come for us.
We live to seek out the lessons of love, and beautiful things. But the rest of the time, we are simply trying to avoid what we each fear most.
Sparrow
Hagel's seat? Nebraska is pretty red. Maybe Bob Kerrey should enter the race. There will be 17 Senate seats west of the Mississippi (including 2 in Wyoming). Need to keep Landrieu and Tim Johnson (SD). Get open seats in Colorado, Nebraska, knock out Gordon Smith in OR and Norm Coleman in MN and it might be a slightly better world. NM, Wyoming, KS, OK, TX could be harder. The Republicans do not have their usual monetary advantage so far. I think more in numbers the older I get.
Christy
When I was a teenager I used to wear a "poison ring" for such an eventuality. I can't remember if I actually found anything to put in it, but the concept was there.
With stress, the brain kicks into fight/flight mode and sends signals down the spinal cord to the adrenals, increasing blood sugar, heart rate and blood pressure. The hypothalamus send signals to the pituitary in the bottom of the brain telling it to release cortisol, which keeps the blood sugar and blood pressure up long enough to help with the escape from danger.
That's ok for the short-term but if it goes on for weeks or years, it can damp the immune system (repeated exposure to cortisol) and also decrease brain cells, and increase likelihood of heart attack and stroke and kill hippocampal cells too, damaging memory.
Brain cells are literally excited to death because more calcium comes in through cell membranes and the nerves fire too frequently and some die.
My nerves have been firing way too much lately, it's true.
Richard and I are off to the newly revitalized and housed (across the street in a shiny white tent) Eastern Market.
Can't find a photo so I'll have to take one, to show you RESURRECTION!
Christy,
I agree that lessons from the immediate moment of horror stay with you long term and we learn to adjust to it in the long run. In the short term, it can save your life. I agree with you that your senses become heightened and you may temporarily think faster. But that is instinct. And in terms of thinking faster, you may not be weighing all your options. Heck, you may not even think of other options! You are taking the option that pops into your head first. It's the fright or flight instinct. That's why some people remain frozen if they see something horrific; some dissociate from it; and others jump into action.
I also think a person's personality and life experiences may decide what they do during that 'shocking moment' in time.
Also, in terms of 'shocking moments' isn't part of the learning process training for such possibilities? Not that I believe you can truly train for war. But you can train for emergency situations like rescue workers do. And you can take training classes in self-defence so that hopefully you don't lock up and shut down if someone attacks you.
But everything nmp posted above (2:05) is true as well.
I know lots of people whose nerves are firing way too easily lately and not just Karen! And isn't that exactly what the neocons planned to do? And isn't that how they turn family against family? Of course, that is what they have in common with Fascist Germany pre-WWII and during...
And hasn't it been reported that they were using licensed psychiatrists to design our torture program? If something so vile isn't off limits, then why shouldn't we expect that they'd learn to turn the screws in everyday circumstances.
Speaking of shocking moments and brain function--imagine what was happening to the victims of 9-11. (The ones on the plane.) They had time to make calculated decisions, weigh their odds, and sadly to see death come.
I think that is the driving fear many people have when thinking about national security. Will they have time to react? What should they do? Makes it pretty darn easy to trust people when they say, "We're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here." Or to trust them when they say, "Going to Iraq was the right thing to do because we haven't been attacked on our own soil since then."
You never have to think about "What if it was me" when we're fighting in Iraq. As long as you stay home, you think you're safe.
WONDERFUL CLIP OF HOWARD DEAN THRASHING SEAN HANNITY:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-VX-YJAKIs
Calmly and coolly, Howard Dean takes apart George Bush, Dick Cheney, Fox News and Shawn Hannity. This is from the 2004 Democratic Convention.
"I also think a person's personality and life experiences may decide what they do during that 'shocking moment' in time. "
It is true that something like being well loved can make you react less instinctivly, but when it is a do or die situation, who you are, who loved you, what kind of person you think you are, or hope to be... All of that really does not matter at that moment. Good people have been known to react with horrifying results.
Perfectly sane people face that moment and do some of the craziest stuff ever seen. In those moments nothing matters, except your will to survive. Love, beauty, poetry, they are the luxuries of security.
My point is basically, the government, as it is, knows it can not go the usual route and inspire loyalty with love and compassion. So they use fear, and in almost every sense the fear will last longer anyway.
Love can be fickle. Fear is a certainty. On a basic level, we all fear the same things. Fear is easier and far more binding.
You know, I think what you alluded too is right. I think they are using psychiatrists, mind butchers, to turn the screws to us on a more daily basis.
I think in many ways they are literally using the exact same methods of Adolf Hitler himself. I believe we are literally being brainwashed in some ways, and it is absolutely deliberate.
There is no other way to explain what has happened here.
WHY WE ARE LOSING OUR DEMOCRACY (typical thinking in my city):
"All politicians stink"
This is a conversation between myself and another poster at my city newspaper's website -
QUOTE:
UCanTuneAPiano
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 403
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject:
Okay guys, can we all agree - Most politicians are LIARS, LOSERS AND IDIOTS all rolled into one 'snappy' little package. Dems or Cons ~ all suck the same poo.
_________________
But You Can't Tune A Fish....
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Ralphdraw3
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 4429
Location: BC
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject:
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Dems or Cons ~ all suck the same poo.
@@@@@@@
NO!!!! After 9-11 Dumbya Bush WAS GREAT. One of the greatest presidents ever. Almost everyone thought Dubya was great - his approval rating was 80% - HE WAS NOT SUCKING ANY POO.
UCanTuneAPiano
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 403
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:02 am Post subject:
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Good question, Swampy.
Dems and Cons = poo suckers. All a bunch of pathological liars.
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 4430
Location: BC
Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject:
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See Tuna doesn't really believe in democracy... or voting...
But my feeling is that George Bush has sucked 10 times more pooh than Clinton did - Bush, while he is sucking pooh, is killing thousands of people and Tuna couldn't care less. It is no wonder the rest of the world hates us. And when Tuna's taxes go up to pay for Bush's stupid war or Security Security goes bankrupt, Tuna is going to be very angry...
BTW:
Were Pelosi and Kennedy sucking pooh when they did this:
Pelosi voted against Bush's stupid war - that puts her miles ahead of most people
Ted Kennedy voted against Bush's stupid war - that puts him miles ahead of most people in Washington..
Ralpheh
Howard Dean has a talent for doing that. I usually agreed with his gaffes, which occurred when he spoke extemporaneously.
I agree that suck level for Democrats varies, & that's what I have been trying to say. You win the dialogue above because your argument is not only more nuanced but more correct.
Thinking in generalities never works (maybe even the generality I just created is wrong).
When I stick up for Dems, I'm probably just using a slightly different ruler than you are. Now with the guy you are arguing with, you can see that he is not being analytical at all.
Can you trim those direct posts a little? Thx.
Why did President Bush go to Iraq?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uwFtrwNBpvM
Does Bush want Saddam without the mustache?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6sY9Pix3k
One million killed in Iraq?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNWOj_dFSR4
Iran: Is it weapons or oil?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lTR879Tvdcg
Naomi Klein | The Shock Doctrine
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/090807A.shtml
In The Guardian UK, Naomi Klein says, "What [is] happening in Iraq and New Orleans was not a post-September 11 invention. Rather, these bold experiments in crisis exploitation were the culmination of three decades of strict adherence to the shock doctrine."
Naomi Klein is finding out that what she thought started in the late 90s with globalization goes back to the 50s or more with Friedman. It's interesting & goes along with Eisenhower's warning about the Military-Industrial-Complex, which he originally called the Military-Industrial-Congressional-Complex (but shortened it to not sound too oppositional). Lobbyists and greed are not new but have been allowed to run wild.
Rossi
I liked the video about Saddam without a mustache - Escobar is a good reporter/commentator. He may be right.
Saturday, September 08, 2007
The weekly death toll for Georgies illegal war and occupation in Iraq
Saturday: 39 Iraqis Killed, 48 Wounded
Friday: 7 GIs, 1 Briton, 25 Iraqis Killed; 11 Iraqis Wounded
Thursday: 1 GI, 49 Iraqis Killed; 45 Iraqis Wounded
Wednesday: 10 GIs, 51 Iraqis Killed; 65 Iraqis Wounded
Tuesday: 1 GI, 40 Iraqis Killed; 27 Iraqis Wounded
Monday: 2 GIs, 78 Iraqis Killed; 45 Iraqis Wounded
Sunday: 67 Iraqis Killed; 35 Iraqis Wounded
Saturday: 49 Iraqis Killed, 22 Wounded
http://antiwar.com/updates/
Hey Rossi and Woz.
From your remote location, what does all this infighting among dems seem to be about?
Can you specifically also tell us your opinions on party loyalty, as you see it relates to the democrats...?
Is there a true fracture or is it cosmetic?
Posted by: Christy at September 8, 2007 06:48 PM
IMO, the fracture isn't between moderate and liberal Dems. Here on the streets, we all want the same thing, except now we have recovering-Republicans with us.
The fracture is between the beltway blobs (meaning the Dems in office) and the rest of us out here in the real world.
At any rate, Olson is a pretty good lawyer, and even though he has been a sorry apologist for Bush's behaviors, there is a part of me that would like to believe that he knows what he knows and that he cares about the Constitution.
Olson was also connected to Bush Papa, and there may even have been some interventions involved in this proposal.
Enquiring minds will be paying attention...
Posted by: karen at September 8, 2007 12:34 PM
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
OLSON!??!??!?!??!?!?
That's who Bush came up with for A.G.???
His wife was a Clinton-hater - she wrote a Clinton -hating pulp non-fiction book. What was the title - High Crimes and Misdemeanors???
The Dems in the Senate won't put up with that crap - you would think the Hillary alone would filibuster!!
Howard Dean has a talent for doing that. I usually agreed with his gaffes, which occurred when he spoke extemporaneously.
I agree that suck level for Democrats varies, & that's what I have been trying to say. You win the dialogue above because your argument is not only more nuanced but more correct.
@@@@@@@@@@@
I think the quality of our politicians is going down, but the politicians are not to blame - ultimately, IT IS THE AMERICAN VOTER. They don't pay attention to the news, they don't pay attention to a candidates record, they don't vote in primaries, they don't double check a candidate's assertions (For example, Hillary said, in an ad-libbed comment, that she would continue to accept money from special interest PAC's because they represent "real people" like "nurses and social-workers". I had a sense that Hillary was making up facts and called her campaign to see if they could name a single "nurses" PAC or a single "social workers" PAC that had contributed to Hillary's campaign - THEY COULD NOT.)
The American people are getting the government they deserve, a mediocre, incompetent and dishonest government. And it is THEIR fault, not the politicians.
It's pretty sad that people still use an IWR as a litmus test for determining who meets their A plus criteria. I would just rather support those who are working hard to end this war and continue to hold Bush accountable.
Bush was going to invade without a vote, and it's too bad people are too closed minded to see that, and blame the ONE person that caused all of this mess.
the plot has thickened just in a few hours LOL
I won't get this quote right but, Einstein said, I do no know with what weapons world war 3 will be fought. But world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones.
Can you specifically also tell us your opinions on party loyalty, as you see it relates to the democrats...?
Is there a true fracture or is it cosmetic?
Posted by: Christy at September 8, 2007 06:48 PM
Christy, it's much the same here. Kevin Rudd of the ALP - our Democratic party - will be Australia's next prime minister if Howard's *neo cons* coalition team is defeated. Right now, Rudd is sounding very conservative and very much like Howard, although he does have a better attitude towards Education and Health than Howard does.
Rudd is being vilified by the government because he's too close to the trade unions and half of his front bench are ex union leaders. That scaremongering has worked until Howard applied the policy of the love of his life - your president - and astonishing scandals keep happening because his rich buddies apply his law to benefit themselves. This means that people were dismissed and their job was advertised for $10,000 less a year. In fact, universities have been told that if all university staff does not sign one of Howard's "make the rich a bonanza" campaign, they will not receive government funding!
In fact, all the money that Howard has been stealing from Hospitals, he's been using to feather his own and his friends' nests. When he was criticised about his cutbacks to Education on tv recently, his response is the only thing that he's ever said that made me laugh (otherwise I'd cry). He said, "The coalition government has been very generous. We give a LOT of money to private schools."
Rudd is busy skating along the middle of the road right now and is appealing to both sides of government. In fact my friend said in her email last night, "We are planning a party on election night so we can laugh together as Howard gets done (the alternative is too dreadful to contemplate). I will worry about Rudd not being any where near green enough after Howard
goes as no-one could be worse."
And that's my view too. Australians, watching Howard's dog-like devotion and salivating in Bush's wake this weekend is something that Australians really can't tolerate. And all of Howard's reforms came straight from Bush's mouth.
Australians were for the first time ever, very aware of the fantastic result of the American 2006 election. Now we are almost as jaded and angry as you. Party Loyalty is the same here though. We are having a really hard time accepting Peter Garrett (shadow minister for the environment and the arts) ex Midnight Oil - has said yes to chopping down Tasmania's old growth forests and yes to building a gigantic highly toxin-producing pulp mill. I wrote to him and recommended that he go back to political songwriting and singing.
Like Americans who mostly wouldn't have a clue where Australia is, the reverse applies here. Most people only know your president. And your tv programs. And most of the christians in my family love Bush. For some very, very odd reason, Thou shalt not kill, doesn't apply to Bush.
Christy - re the McCanns and Madeleine. The've been allowed to go home to England it seems. I know there was blood found in the car they hired several weeks after Madeleine went missing. I haven't seen, heard or read anywhere that the blood is Madeleines. Have you?
A day late and a dollar short here as usual Karen. I love the thread header. In fact, I like it so much that I've passed it on to my friends and relatives who are into children's literature.
The fracture is between the beltway blobs (meaning the Dems in office) and the rest of us out here in the real world.
Posted by: sparrow at September 8, 2007 07:23 PM
I agree, seems to me, the Dems in office want exactly what they have handed Georgie on a silver platter, for if and when they take over the White House.
Chasers release APEC joke video
new video of the Chaser APEC stunt,
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=17595488
THE Chaser team have released video of their bogus motorcade stunt that upstaged the massive APEC security crackdown in Sydney, showing "Osama's" cars being waved through police checkpoints.
THE Chaser team have released video of their bogus motorcade stunt that upstaged the massive APEC security crackdown in Sydney, showing "Osama's" cars being waved through police checkpoints.
I will worry about Rudd not being any where near green enough after Howard
goes as no-one could be worse."
And that's my view too. Australians, watching Howard's dog-like devotion and salivating in Bush's wake this weekend is something that Australians really can't tolerate. And all of Howard's reforms came straight from Bush's mouth.
Posted by: woz at September 9, 2007 01:01 AM
I don't like Rudd either Period, but anything would be better than the poodle, he's got to go.
And most of the christians in my family love Bush. For some very, very odd reason, Thou shalt not kill, doesn't apply to Bush.
Posted by: woz at September 9, 2007 01:01 AM
Thank God my lot, are well and truely onto Bush, but then they would be dealing with me, and I don't think they would relish that, I am very calm and laid back, but that Ass**** can push every button I have.
Woz,
In both stories I read the other day, they claimed both the blood in the hotel and the blood in the car were Madeleines. As a matter of a fact, I think that is why it suddenly made news again, and why they were pulled back in for questioning, because the lab results came back day before yesterday.
They let them go back to England? I hope you are joking.
As for the rundown on Aussie politicking, that is very, very interesting. Howard steals money from hospitals...great. Why is that not a surprise?
All of this group of neocons, the international body of them, I swear these people will steal the food out of babies mouths just to have it for themselves.
Woz, in this story they mention both the blood in the room and the car, but say it is unconfirmed as the girls.
"The change of status will enable the police to put a set of new questions to her and give her the right to remain silent. The sudden shift in the investigation came after authorities received forensic evidence from the holiday apartment in the Algarve where Madeleine vanished.
A friend of the McCanns, Justine McGuinness, said Mrs McCann had told her police also found blood in a car hired by her and her husband, but there was no confirmation it was Madeleine's blood."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/madeleines-mother-guilty-police/2007/09/07/1188783495040.html
I am trying to find that first story I read, for some reason I am thinking it was an Italian news outlet, but my history clears every 2 days. They made no mention of the blood in the car, not sure they knew about it yet, but they did say it was her blood in the hotel room.
The next few days should let them clarify wtf is happening.
See, it is this kind of crap I am talking about.
"Mrs McCann had not been formally questioned since the day after Madeleine vanished."
If that were my kid, or your kid, or any of us, they would have had us in an interrogation room for days and days on end.
Kid goes missing, you question momma once, right then, then just let her walk away....? WTF kind of police investigation is that?
I think they knew about the blood in the room for a while-and maybe that its compatible? or that it was her blood. I remember reading about it several weeks ago and I was thinking-how can they think she's alive if they found her blood in the room(maybe bathroom?){not that its not possible just not probable}
couple thoughts- if the parents did it and hide the body- how did they do that in the timeline? WHere could they have hidden it?
Got up and opened email - someone sent me a story about 9/11 conspiracy theorist/investigator Alex Jones being arrested in NYC & then another big one (with video) about preparations being made for martial law.
I am not going to assume the worst and I'm not closely following the murder story everyone is talking about, though I did see a headline that someone killed a gray whale with a machine gun.
The dollar is supposed to drop more this week, complicating my vacation.
Wonder if there is anything good out there for breakfast?
That I might be able to do something about.
Vote for impeachment here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/?polls=is_open
If that link doesn't work, I found it at DU.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1765720&mesg_id=1765720
So much for my idyllic Sunday, as I have been sent a third paranoia-inducing story:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/9/51544/46359
Military surveillance from space of US citizens on the Homeland (resolution to one inch). No different than having Federal Police sitting on every fucking corner of America.
Also, a guest from NYC has posted an incredible video about how China is able to laugh at us as we descend in power ranking:
http://www.silencedmajority.blogs.com - click on the little laughing man. It's 16 minutes long but has incredible "pidgeon" translation and there is way too much truth to it. Have we really been sold down the (Yangtze) River by hillbillies?
The Dixie Chicks (and Ron Paul) are all over You Tube:
Dixie Chicks You Tube video: 2 million hits, "Not Ready to Make Nice"
(George and Dick, you in trouble big-time)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwc5YSAc-7g
Another video about the Dixie Chicks movie "Shut-up and Sing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDHj8NCCSZo
Premiere of "Shut-up and Sing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7zr39OKxN0
Here is an idea for the muddle headed Dem. leaders: INVITE THE DIXIE CHICKS TO SING AT THE 2008 DEM. CONVENTION!! naw... that's too good of an idea!!! LOL
It's pretty sad that people still use an IWR as a litmus test for determining who meets their A plus criteria. I would just rather support those who are working hard to end this war and continue to hold Bush accountable.
@@@@@@@@@
Many Dems (Hillary, prime example) caved in to Bush and the War. If any Dem. should have known about the Project for A New American Century and the Neo-Cons, it was Hillary since they pressured Bill to go to war with Iraq in 1998 (he refused). These weak Dems should and hopefully will be held accountable, just as we should hold Bush accountable.
Here is the classic You Tube video of Hillary Clinton sounding just like George Bush on the eve of the catastrophic war:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYATbsu2cP8
MSNBC Impeachment poll
Do you believe President Bush's actions justify impeachment? * 537510 responses
Yes, between the secret spying, the deceptions leading to war and more, there is plenty to justify putting him on trial.
89%
No, like any president, he has made a few missteps, but nothing approaching "high crimes and misdemeanors."
4.2%
No, the man has done absolutely nothing wrong. Impeachment would just be a political lynching.
5.2%
I don't know.
1.9%
Ruffian,
Wasn't the hotel on the seashore or close to it?
My guess, if the little girl is in fact dead, she was put into the water.
AND, the timeline may not be all it appears to be. Hypothetically, if her mother killed her and daddy helped hide it, it could have been a full day or two before they called the cops to report her missing.
It just seems doctors would take more care with blood, knowing how easily it can be detected.
Also, there was obviously not a 'bloody mess' inside the room, or it would have came out right away. If there was no blood in plain sight, then someone must have cleaned it up.